Anyways, I could go on and on with examples.

Just keep in mind that the real dictatorship is multiculturalism (and at the same time, the promotion of the destruction of anything "too much'" white or european).

But do that little test I mentioned, please (http://politicalcompass.org)...

Remeber, not all of us that hate Geroge Bush are liberal nut-jobs… I hated Clinton too… I think that it is healthly to push back against the government (right or left)… otherwise we end up like the world of V.

See you on http://www.rightwingnews.com

W

Sure. But not here. It’s not my site. Try http://www.rightwingnews.com for great discussions.

I am not a liberal, I am a libertarian… I side with most conservatives on nearly every issue. I am anti gun control, anti big government, anti UN, anti taxation, anti government market control, anti pretty much all government intervention unless absolutely required. We admittedly would disagree on those “required” times as we obviously share different views on the roll of the government to regulate morality (I am against nearly all government regulation).

I find it disheartening that you are unwilling to actually talk about these issues and see fit to ignore the fact that we should agree on nearly every one (at least if you are a really a conservative)… I was hoping for an interesting discussion rather than ridiculous reversion to talking points (yes liberals have them too)… I too am through with this site…

But in closing… checkout this site…

http://politicalcompass.org

Take the survey and find out how political scientists (no I don’t trust them either) would characterize your viewpoints…

Then try the same survey and answer how you think the following people would answer…

1) a Berkley liberal (hippy)
2) a true conservative
3) a libertarian
4) a Nazi
5) a real communist (Marxism, divide the wealth, basically Animal Farm)
6) an anarchist
7) our founding fathers (the trouble makers like Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin)

I am not attacking… this is not a slam… i don’t claim to have the answers… it is simply worth doing.

It is my opinion that most “true liberals” and “true conservatives” share more common ground than most would be willing to admit…

We are Americans… and we all want to be free to not have things forced on us our government (left or right)…

W

The terms left and right originated from the House of Commons and the House of Lords. The Lords sat on the right and favored policies that tended to benifit lords.

It would be entirely accurate to characterize Stalin, Mao and communist/socialist regimes as left. And yes, they did control everything… and they were a lot like the government in V… and yes Stalin was a monster that killed millions… (but religion is almost always outlawed in socialist or communist regimes).

The Nazis were as right wing as you can get. They were also conservative and considered themselves christian (obviously they weren’t, but they claimed they were, look it up).

It is a common misconception because the word socialist is in the title that the Nazi’s were socialist… not true… the party started as a “workers party”… then Hilter took over and changed it and ousted all the left-wingers.

Although it never works that way, the basic idea of socialism is to give the power to the people (of course it is a joke in real life).

Some info here

http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/history/A0834972.html

or look it up at britannica.com
they were also a lot like the goverment in V… and they were also led by monsters.

Neither the right or the left can lay claim on being the evil empire… the only universal characteristic is extremism and blind nationalism.

Check out http://www.remember.org/guide/Facts.root.nazi.html

If anyone is an authority on the subject of Nazi attrocities it would be this site. They describe it this way:

– Two types of totalitarianism can sometimes be distinguished: Nazism and Fascism which evolved from “right-wing” extremism, and Communism, which evolved from “left-wing” extremism. Traditionally, each is supported by different social classes. Right-wing totalitarian movements have generally drawn their popular support primarily from middle classes seeking to maintain the economic and social status quo. Left-wing totalitarianism has often developed from working class movements seeking, in theory, to eliminate, not preserve, class distinctions. Right-wing totalitarianism has typically supported and enforced the private ownership of industrial wealth. A distinguishing feature of Communism, by contrast, is the collective ownership of such capital.

Totalitarian regimes mobilize and make use of mass political participation, and often are led by charismatic cult figures. Examples of such cult figures in modern history are Mao Tse-tung (China) and Josef Stalin (Soviet Union), who led left-wing regimes, and Adolf Hitler (Germany) and Benito Mussolini (Italy), who led right-wing regimes.

Right-wing totalitarian regimes (particularly the Nazis) have arisen in relatively advanced societies, relying on the support of traditional economic elites to attain power.

In contrast, left-wing totalitarian regimes have arisen in relatively undeveloped countries through the unleashing of revolutionary violence and terror. Such violence and terror are also the primary tools of right-wing totalitarian regimes to maintain compliance with authority.

1) I would assume that as a conservative you support states rights. I too support states rights. How do you feel about the following: the federal move to trump Oregon’s Death with Dignity Law; the federal move to overturn medical marijuana use as voted on by the people of California; federal intervention in opposing stronger emission standards in California; No Child Left Behind; federal attempts to supersede state minimum wage laws, marriage laws and abortion laws. I know you might not like these state laws. But should the states be allowed to decide for themselves?

2) I would assume that as a conservative you would oppose excessive government spending. I too oppose excessive government spending. If you remove the cost associated with the war on terror and remove the costs associated with disasters like 9/11 and Katrina and remove all spending on social programs (such as the Medicare Drug plan); the Bush administration has still spent more (even when adjusted for inflation) than any administration in the history of the US (This according to the conservative Heritage foundation http://www.heritage.org/Research/Budget/wm398.cfm). According to the conservative Cato institute “pork” sending is at an all-time high with Bush having spent more than Reagan through Clinton combined. How does this affect your feelings about the direction of our government?

3) I would assume that as a conservative you would oppose excessive government control of business. I too oppose excessive market regulation. Under the Bush administration we have seen: New subsidies for farmers, new subsidies for tobacco companies, new subsidies for energy companies, new subsidies for airlines, ethanol, subsidies for 39 Fortune 500 companies, money for a Baseball Hall of Fame, a Railroad Depot Museum, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, etc. How about the moves to restrict cable companies and satellite companies (ownership and/or content). Your thoughts?

4) I oppose nearly all government control. I would assume that as a conservative you would also oppose excessive government control. How does this fit with the Patriot Act? How about the administration exerting greater government control over education, health care, and charity?

5) In the 2000 Presidential debates Mr. Bush said.. “I’m worried about an opponent [Gore] who uses nation building and the military in the same sentence. I don’t think our troops ought to be used for what’s called nation building.” Do you think our tax dollars and troops should be used to “build” other nations?

6) How do you feel about the goals of the Project for a New American Century and it’s goals (it lists Dick Cheney and George Bush as members) particularly it’s goals for the US to use our resource to be the world’s police. (http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm)

7) I would assume that as a conservative you would oppose restricting weapons sales. I too oppose any effort to ban weapons. What do you think of Bush’s support of the assault weapon ban?

Do you feel we have more free speech restrictions now or 10 years ago?

9) Protestors have been arrested quite often over the last 6 years. Are you aware of any protestor or heckler being arrested during the Clinton administration (and I am not a Clinton fan, btw)… I seem to remember the “Chicken Man”… as I recall people could easily and freely express there displeasure with Clinton whenever he appeared in public (and they did). What about freedom to assemble? Should it be restricted?

10) If liberal want to control everything why have they never tried to pass a law about who you can marry? Why is it ok for the government to tell you who you can marry?

11) How do you feel about government regulation of what you put in your body? Marijuana, Oreos, candy, cigarettes, etc? The things you buy? Guns, Cuban cigars, Canadian prescriptions, tobacco, alcohol, etc? Do you support the government regulation of none, some or all? Is it the governments place to tell us what is best for us? Should the government be allowed to restrict the sale of legal items on Sunday? Do you support age restrictions for the sale of legal items for people serving our country in the military (over the age of 18 on base)? (and yes I support and have served in the military).

I don’t care where it was, frankly. Only a sick, twisted mentality could equate the Coalition that freed 25 million Iraqis from a brutal dictator with Nazis. That was the point.

>Alan Moore is a liberal and a self-professed anarchist.

The two are mutually incompatible, as one is based on government redistribution of wealth and the other is based on no government whatsoever.

>I quote Alan Moore

Moore, like you, seems not to understand that military force is not the only face of the War on Terror. The IRA, like Libya, decided to take a more cooperative approach to reform.

>Moore demanded to have his name taken off all the films based on his
>work

And rightly so. As I mentioned, Hollywood keeps ruining them.

>It seems ironic for a Bush supporter to tell me that “The end
>justifies the means” is a liberal concept.

That’s the justification used by Left-wing dictators for enslaving their own populations since the beginning of time. “We’re going to take things away from you for the common good.” No, wait, that was a Hillary Clinton quote…

>the NYPD had unconstitutionally restricted access to the RNC
>demonstrations, had unlawfully used pens to confine demonstrators,
>had unlawfully arrested protestors and had unlawfully searched
>people seeking to attend demonstrations.

None of that has anything to do with my statement except the arrests. And the arrests were not themselves unlawful or unconstitutional… the processing time took too long. As for restricting access, searching protestors or the use of enclosed protest areas, it’s very debatable whether that’s unconstitutional.

>Can you tell me if Jewish marriage was restricted in Nazi Germany?

Are you seriously equating being Jewish with being gay here? Or are you trying to say that not recognising gay “marriage” is the same as gassing peope en masse?

>Non-terrorist were spied on. This is from the New York Times

In case you missed class the day they went over the alphabet, F, B and I are not quite the same letters as N, S and A.

>spying on American citizens is wrong.

Not when they’re talking to the enemies of our country, plotting mass destrction and death of our citizens.

>Alan Moore approved of was Guy Fawkes tried to accomplish… anarchy.

Which is why he was understandably upset at the hijacking of his work, as am I. They lost the entire point of V wearing a Guy Fawkes mask!

>I do not support terrorist that take human life.

What kind DO you support, then?

>And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not
>warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
>resistance? Let them take arms….

Well, I’m glad you support thr Second Amendment, then. As long as we have our arms, no REAL tyrant will be able to take away our rights.

>Alan Moore says that the government in V for Vendetta is a
>conservative, right-wing government

I don’t expect Moore to know much about actual, real-world politics, given that he thinks the Nazis and Fascists were right-wingers. A true Conservative government (and only a fool would mistake President Bush for a true Conservative) would never restrict the individual the way every Left-wing government does as a matter of course, since Conservatives are all for less government interference except in defense of our freedoms and institutions. Got to love his penchant for conspiracy theories, though. That’s what makes his fictional stories so excellent. Its a pity some people can’t tell where fantasy leaves off and reality begins.

http://www.salon.com/books/int/2004/07/22/moore/index3.html

“Well, the one thing with writing stories about the rise of fascism is that if you wait long enough, you’ll almost certainly be proved right. Fascism is like a hydra — you can cut off its head in the Germany of the ’30s and ’40s, but it’ll still turn up on your back doorstep in a slightly altered guise. I’d agree that the current situation is particularly alarming. I tend to think that this momentum seems to have sprung up entirely from a group of largely discredited, extreme right-wingers who have been skulking in the shadows since the Ford administration and have suddenly come into the light of day surrounding George W. Bush”

The banner was at GORDON’S HOUSE… as was the Qur’an. Yes I am sure that the Wachowski brothers did this for a political message. Yes they are flaming liberals. I agree, it was not in the original book. My point is, if you saw the movie you would know that these items were NOT IN V’s lair. It is impossible for this to be a simple mistake on your part. It is revisted several times in the movie. You really should see the movie yourself, rather than letting someone tell you about it.

Alan Moore is a liberal and a self-professed anarchist.

I quote Alan Moore as interviewed by Publishers Weekly:

– He also points out that America’s current preoccupation with terrorism is nothing new for Brits. If Americans are more worried about dying in an Islamic jihad than a nuclear winter, “no offense, but that is perhaps more of an American perception than a global one. You have to remember that over here there were teenagers being taken out of cellar bars in separate carrier bags all through the ’70s and ’80s because of the war in Northern Ireland. In that case, the IRA were largely being supported by donations from America. That was why I was a bit worried when George Bush said he was going to attack people who supported terrorism, I thought, oh my god, Chicago is going to be declared a rogue state and they’ll hunt down Teddy Kennedy.”

– After the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen film turned out to be less than stellar, Moore demanded to have his name taken off all the films based on his work and refused to take any money for them.

It seems ironic for a Bush supporter to tell me that “The end justifies the means” is a liberal concept.

> Wrong. No one has ever been arrested for LEGALLY protesting. Why do Liberals have to lie?

In mid-July, United States District Court Judge Robert W. Sweet issued a decision finding that the NYPD had unconstitutionally restricted access to the RNC demonstrations, had unlawfully used pens to confine demonstrators, had unlawfully arrested protestors and had unlawfully searched people seeking to attend demonstrations.

> Can you tell me where the gay death camps are?

Can you tell me if Jewish marriage was restricted in Nazi Germany?

> I am entirely pleased that the President wants the NSA to listen to phone calls to and from known terrorists. Why aren’t you? “Secret police” my foot… when members of Congress and FISA judges were all kept regularly informed of the program. You Liberals crack me up when you attack Bush for listening to terrorists, but excuse Clinton for istening to EVERYBODY (look up Project Echelon sometime).

Non-terrorist were spied on. This is from the New York Times, so I am sure it is liberal propoganda:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/20/politics/20fbi.html?ei=5088&en=d2129bfa7b4b8554&ex=1292734800&pagewanted=print

I also know all about Project Echelon (it played a roll in the FISA warrents you hear so much about)… and no I will never attempt to defend it… spying on American citizens is wrong. It was wrong when Bill Clinton did it and it is wrong when Bush does it. You Converatives crack me up that you will defend George Bush right or wrong.

> And the Wachowski brothers would have done well to remember that.

Alan Moore selected the Guy Fawkes mask for a reason… Alan Moore approved of was Guy Fawkes tried to accomplish… anarchy. (I am not an anarchist, btw)

> I must have been asleep that day my history class learned about the ships filled with explosives sailing up the Thames to blow up innocent men, women and children. Please remind me how our Founding Fathers fought off democracy to bring about a tyranny. I’m sorry that you’re so ill with moral relativism that you can’t tell the difference between terrorists and freedom fighters.

I do not support terrorist that take human life. I do not support those that would abolish freedom. However according to the Patriot Act, domestic terrorist is defined as: “any action that endangers human life or is a violation of any federal or state law.” Under the patriot act the Boston Tea Party would be considered “domestic terrorism”.

“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy” – James Madison

“We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home” – Thomas Jefferson

“God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion…. And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms…. The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.” – Thomas Jefferson

And yes I do support the unrestricted right to bear arms.

>So I am sure, as a God fearing man, that you can immediate dismiss
>his character because, after all, he is gay.

Keep your day job and give up the psychic bit. Not only am I agnostic, but nowhere have I ever dismissed people for being gay. Don’t project your hates and fears onto me, if you please.

>although I do agree that the movie was very different from the
>graphic novel, the original intent was preserved quite well

“Fake but accurate,” eh? The original intent was utterly thrown out the window in favor of a Hollywood Left-wing propaganda piece.

>I quote David Lloyd

The story was mostly Moore’s, who is furious at the way Hollywood has hijacked it. Lloyd, being an admitted Liberal and Socialist, naturally approves of anything that pushes the agenda. “The end justifies the means” and all that. And sorry, but you can’t explain away the fact that in the real story, the LOSS of Thatcher was what sparked the nuclear war and fascist takeover of Britain.

>government “seizing control of the means of production and
>distribution” is not a characteristic of socialism

It is, however, a characteristic of socialist dictatorships. Perhaps you should try reading the article before comenting. Name a socialist/communist dictatorship that has NOT done so.

>making dissent a crime (people arrested from legally protesting),

Wrong. No one has ever been arrested for LEGALLY protesting. Why do Liberals have to lie?

>undesirables (gays),

Can you tell me where the gay death camps are?

>reducing the population to poverty (you are a computer consultant,
>how must less do you make then you made in the 90s?)

Quite a bit more, actually, as the economy finally recovered from Clinton’s mismanagement (Enron) and the tech bubble thanks to Bush’s tax cuts and small business incentives. Thanks for asking.

>and creating a secret police (NSA wiretapping, etc) are all things
>that you yourself promote if you support Mr. Bush.

I am entirely pleased that the President wants the NSA to listen to phone calls to and from known terrorists. Why aren’t you? “Secret police” my foot… when members of Congress and FISA judges were all kept regularly informed of the program. You Liberals crack me up when you attack Bush for listening to terrorists, but excuse Clinton for istening to EVERYBODY (look up Project Echelon sometime).

>Guy Fawkes was executed as a terrorist, not a freedom fighter

And the Wachowski brothers would have done well to remember that.

>Our founding fathers where freedon fighters, England labeled them
>terrorists.

I must have been asleep that day my history class learned about the ships filled with explosives sailing up the Thames to blow up innocent men, women and children. Please remind me how our Founding Fathers fought off democracy to bring about a tyranny. I’m sorry that you’re so ill with moral relativism that you can’t tell the difference between terrorists and freedom fighters.

Secondly, although I do agree that the movie was very different from the graphic novel, the original intent was preserved quite well. The book was about the Thatcher regime in Britain… I quote David Lloyd (co-creator of V the graphic novel)…

Lloyd: “When we started the book there was the Margaret Thatcher regime in Britain at that time. She’d only just been in power for a couple of years and she was getting her stride. Then as things progressed, we saw that she was quite ruthless”

Lloyd: “I’ve always been a liberal and I’ve always had strong socialist leanings. I understand why people do vote on the conservative side of the ticket because people have a tendency to go for strong governments when really, from an idealistic point of view, it’s a bad thing. People accept a government that will be strong if they think it’s looking after them. They will accept all kinds of judgments.”

Lloyd: “As I said, Hitler’s Germany is a classic example of people needing somebody strong. They were coming out of a terrible hyperinflation and poverty and unemployment and depression and this guy offered them a way out. Most of the German people weren’t members of the Nazi Party. But they supported them.”

And lastly

1) the government “seizing control of the means of production and distribution” is not a characteristic of socialism (the workers control the means of production)

2) making dissent a crime (people arrested from legally protesting), undesirables (gays), reducing the population to poverty (you are a computer consultant, how must less do you make then you made in the 90s?) and creating a secret police (NSA wiretapping, etc) are all things that you yourself promote if you support Mr. Bush.

Guy Fawkes was executed as a terrorist, not a freedom fighter… the difference between who is a terorist and who is a freedom fighter often depends on which side you are on. Our founding fathers where freedon fighters, England labeled them terrorists.