WASHINGTON POST

Hello whraglyn,

Unfortunately, Miss Jones’ piece “being more open to consideration” doesn’t say much. Up until the end of the article, her primary focus was on what men should bring to the table to make marriage work. She even said that her own income was about empowering herself and allowing aging women such as herself to demand more from breadwinning men (who have the option to date younger women). What has she been smoking?

Meanwhile, young and even middle aged white women are filling bookstores and style section newspaper articles with stories about how the liberation movement is over and women can’t just wait until the age of 30 to think about having a family. So yes, she’s making a good start but considering the situation of black families she really ought to be a little more aware of what’s going on.

Hello whraglyn,

Unfortunately, Miss Jones’ piece “being more open to consideration” doesn’t say much. Up until the end of the article, her primary focus was on what men should bring to the table to make marriage work. She even said that her own income was about empowering herself and allowing aging women such as herself to demand more from breadwinning men (who have the option to date younger women). What has she been smoking?

Meanwhile, young and even middle aged white women are filling bookstores and style section newspaper articles with stories about how the liberation movement is over and women can’t just wait until the age of 30 to think about having a family. So yes, she’s making a good start but considering the situation of black families she really ought to be a little more aware of what’s going on.

Looks like black women is again winning the I-am-the-biggest-victim sweepstake, according to Joy Jones, a black women (what other demographic group could a person who say something like this belong to?).

According to her, “declining marriage rates among African Americans hit women the hardest.”. This despite the fact that more black men than black women have never been married (by a narrow margin – 43.3 percent versus 41.9 percent), and black women`s chief reasons for not marrying, again according to her own writing, seems to be something like; “(women) don’t want to lose their freedom.”, or “many of their female peers are satisfied with the lives they have constructed and are less likely to settle for marriage”, as “marriage may not be a business deal that offers sufficient return on investment” for black women who nowadays are on average far more educated, well-salaried, and accomplished and than average black men.

As opposed to black women`s selfish, ego-centric and drama-queen reasons for not marrying, black men`s far more serious reasons for not (or not being able to) marrying, such as incarceration, indebtedness with child support or alimony to wealthier ex-wives, drug and alchohol abuse, etc., are not mentioned at all. Instead, single women who think in the lines of “why should well-salaried women marry?”, are portrayed as victims of low rate of marriage among blacks. Here men are treated as commodity or object that women could use in case women wished to look for some companionship and spiritual satisfaction, when she need some respite from her life centered on her high-flung career.

Looks like black women is again winning the I-am-the-biggest-victim sweepstake, according to Joy Jones, a black women (what other demographic group could a person who say something like this belong to?).

According to her, “declining marriage rates among African Americans hit women the hardest.”. This despite the fact that more black men than black women have never been married (by a narrow margin – 43.3 percent versus 41.9 percent), and black women`s chief reasons for not marrying, again according to her own writing, seems to be something like; “(women) don’t want to lose their freedom.”, or “many of their female peers are satisfied with the lives they have constructed and are less likely to settle for marriage”, as “marriage may not be a business deal that offers sufficient return on investment” for black women who nowadays are on average far more educated, well-salaried, and accomplished and than average black men.

As opposed to black women`s selfish, ego-centric and drama-queen reasons for not marrying, black men`s far more serious reasons for not (or not being able to) marrying, such as incarceration, indebtedness with child support or alimony to wealthier ex-wives, drug and alchohol abuse, etc., are not mentioned at all. Instead, single women who think in the lines of “why should well-salaried women marry?”, are portrayed as victims of low rate of marriage among blacks. Here men are treated as commodity or object that women could use in case women wished to look for some companionship and spiritual satisfaction, when she need some respite from her life centered on her high-flung career.

‘…couple(s) that get together by accident may ultimately be more compatable than those where the couple buy into youthful unworkable romantic ideals in choosing a partner.’

The posts following mine are each persuasive. On reflection, I think my first post was more hopeful than circumstances warrant.

Still, the overall tone of Ms. Jones’ piece seemed to me to be much more open to consideration of multilateral aspects of the problem than usual in the thinking of most women over the last 25 years or so.

I look forward to reading more from her in future, and still have some hope that her insights might gain more credence and influence among her generational, gender, and racial peers.

‘…couple(s) that get together by accident may ultimately be more compatable than those where the couple buy into youthful unworkable romantic ideals in choosing a partner.’

The posts following mine are each persuasive. On reflection, I think my first post was more hopeful than circumstances warrant.

Still, the overall tone of Ms. Jones’ piece seemed to me to be much more open to consideration of multilateral aspects of the problem than usual in the thinking of most women over the last 25 years or so.

I look forward to reading more from her in future, and still have some hope that her insights might gain more credence and influence among her generational, gender, and racial peers.

I noticed in the article that the author admitted that as she become older and presumably more “independent” and wealthy, she lost an interest in marriage. It was a largely honest article including her own selfish desires and didn’t bend backwards to bash men (just the opposite really.) Quite refreshing.

Sadly, she didn’t take it to the next step: Is so-called women’s equality ultimately undermining relationships between men and women (and society and children)? Then again, this is understandable since many MRA’s still like to talk about “egalitarianism” and hope that if feminism just has it’s rough edges knocked off, then women will still have all the options of men but still enjoy traditional relationships.

In answer to whraglyn’s question about whether divorce rates should slope off: Not necessarily. Independent women who take longer to marry may also have more options to divorce for trivial reasons. Studies of “shotgun marriages” has shown to be surprisingly stable. It’s possible that a couple that get together by accident may ultimately be more compatable than those where the couple buy into youthful unworkable romantic ideals in choosing a partner.

I noticed in the article that the author admitted that as she become older and presumably more “independent” and wealthy, she lost an interest in marriage. It was a largely honest article including her own selfish desires and didn’t bend backwards to bash men (just the opposite really.) Quite refreshing.

Sadly, she didn’t take it to the next step: Is so-called women’s equality ultimately undermining relationships between men and women (and society and children)? Then again, this is understandable since many MRA’s still like to talk about “egalitarianism” and hope that if feminism just has it’s rough edges knocked off, then women will still have all the options of men but still enjoy traditional relationships.

In answer to whraglyn’s question about whether divorce rates should slope off: Not necessarily. Independent women who take longer to marry may also have more options to divorce for trivial reasons. Studies of “shotgun marriages” has shown to be surprisingly stable. It’s possible that a couple that get together by accident may ultimately be more compatable than those where the couple buy into youthful unworkable romantic ideals in choosing a partner.

Me, me, me, me, me, me! All of the good points the author made in this article aside, I couldn’t help but notice that its all about herself. Forget what’s happening to children, fathers, family and society, articles by women today are relentless in the notion of forgetting the harm wrought on others, and just ofcus on herself. As the Titanic was sinking, were the women on life boats wondering if dumping the children overboard to drown along with their father might allow them to live better lives?

I particularly liked the acknowledgement that to boys today, its unrealistic to plan to marry, but nevertheless they want to be fathers, and good ones. Its good they understand that, now we need to teach them that it doesn’t matter how much they want it or how good of a father they are, the government is there to make sure its only the mother’s “choices” that matter.

Finally, in the next to last paragraph, quoted below, we finally get some attention paid to the impact of it all on children. Alas, this point was made by a man, not the author. Although he uses the term “absent fathers” and doesn not acknowledge that its the government war on fatherhood that makes him absent, not his “choice”, he at least raises some concern for children.

“A black male acquaintance had a different prediction. “I don’t believe marriage is going to be extinct, but I think you’ll see fewer people married,” he said. “It’s a bad thing. I believe it takes the traditional family — a man and a woman — to raise kids.” He has worked with troubled adolescents, and has observed that “the girls who are in the most trouble and who are abused the most — the father is absent. And the same is true for the boys, too.” He believes that his presence and example in the home is why both his sons decided to marry when their girlfriends became pregnant.”

When one of his two sons are evicted from his children’s lives, and maybe learns he isn’t even the biological father, then this man will really understand. Meanwhile, I expect more me, me, me, articles from female authors, while children and families sink with the ship.

Me, me, me, me, me, me! All of the good points the author made in this article aside, I couldn’t help but notice that its all about herself. Forget what’s happening to children, fathers, family and society, articles by women today are relentless in the notion of forgetting the harm wrought on others, and just ofcus on herself. As the Titanic was sinking, were the women on life boats wondering if dumping the children overboard to drown along with their father might allow them to live better lives?

I particularly liked the acknowledgement that to boys today, its unrealistic to plan to marry, but nevertheless they want to be fathers, and good ones. Its good they understand that, now we need to teach them that it doesn’t matter how much they want it or how good of a father they are, the government is there to make sure its only the mother’s “choices” that matter.

Finally, in the next to last paragraph, quoted below, we finally get some attention paid to the impact of it all on children. Alas, this point was made by a man, not the author. Although he uses the term “absent fathers” and doesn not acknowledge that its the government war on fatherhood that makes him absent, not his “choice”, he at least raises some concern for children.

“A black male acquaintance had a different prediction. “I don’t believe marriage is going to be extinct, but I think you’ll see fewer people married,” he said. “It’s a bad thing. I believe it takes the traditional family — a man and a woman — to raise kids.” He has worked with troubled adolescents, and has observed that “the girls who are in the most trouble and who are abused the most — the father is absent. And the same is true for the boys, too.” He believes that his presence and example in the home is why both his sons decided to marry when their girlfriends became pregnant.”

When one of his two sons are evicted from his children’s lives, and maybe learns he isn’t even the biological father, then this man will really understand. Meanwhile, I expect more me, me, me, articles from female authors, while children and families sink with the ship.

Marriage was never an issue in Africa — where tribal culture made ownership immaterial and marriage immaterial. Nobody owned anything — most everything was communal in nature.

This does not work in property-based western cultures where there is no such thing as a communal home, land, food, cars, or anything else. Marriage is the only western culture that assures stable property ownership, heirage to children, and proper raising of children.

The black family has been divided ever since slaves were brought to America. Men worked the south forty, and women worked the mansion — while often being the sexual property of their masters. Women looked to masters for sustenance and care, not their own men.

Black women still looked to government for sustenance. The welfare culture of the 1960′s turned into child support collections (deadbeat dad) culture of the 1990′s and beyond. Lacking family structure, women are still poorer than they would be, children are abused, neglected, and under-parented; and young men are taught from day one that they have no place in family –except perhaps as good ministers who spend most of their time playing big daddy to lots of women and begging government for more socialism.

The reality is this: The welfare state takes from the poor to give to the poor. Intergenerational poverty and the lack of poor parenting means the few children have the support system to even get and hold a job, much less discover the importance of marriage to begin with.

Blacks will only find true social and economic advacement by walking away from the welfare culture, adopting a marriage culture, educating all children to follow this path, and shutting down the hip-hop culture which turns black youth toward mutual sexual predation and mistrust.

Black leaders who do otherwise are merely repressing their own constituents. By all accounts, there are no black leaders other than Bill Cosby who have the guts to talk about it. Folks like Tavis Smiley, Al Sharpton, and Jesse Jackson have hurt blacks more than anyone can possibly imagine. Pretending that blacks are victims of whites and discrimination, when it is so evident that black leaders continue down a path guaranteeing dysfunctional culture and poverty, is sheer nonsense.

Marriage was never an issue in Africa — where tribal culture made ownership immaterial and marriage immaterial. Nobody owned anything — most everything was communal in nature.

This does not work in property-based western cultures where there is no such thing as a communal home, land, food, cars, or anything else. Marriage is the only western culture that assures stable property ownership, heirage to children, and proper raising of children.

The black family has been divided ever since slaves were brought to America. Men worked the south forty, and women worked the mansion — while often being the sexual property of their masters. Women looked to masters for sustenance and care, not their own men.

Black women still looked to government for sustenance. The welfare culture of the 1960′s turned into child support collections (deadbeat dad) culture of the 1990′s and beyond. Lacking family structure, women are still poorer than they would be, children are abused, neglected, and under-parented; and young men are taught from day one that they have no place in family –except perhaps as good ministers who spend most of their time playing big daddy to lots of women and begging government for more socialism.

The reality is this: The welfare state takes from the poor to give to the poor. Intergenerational poverty and the lack of poor parenting means the few children have the support system to even get and hold a job, much less discover the importance of marriage to begin with.

Blacks will only find true social and economic advacement by walking away from the welfare culture, adopting a marriage culture, educating all children to follow this path, and shutting down the hip-hop culture which turns black youth toward mutual sexual predation and mistrust.

Black leaders who do otherwise are merely repressing their own constituents. By all accounts, there are no black leaders other than Bill Cosby who have the guts to talk about it. Folks like Tavis Smiley, Al Sharpton, and Jesse Jackson have hurt blacks more than anyone can possibly imagine. Pretending that blacks are victims of whites and discrimination, when it is so evident that black leaders continue down a path guaranteeing dysfunctional culture and poverty, is sheer nonsense.

While their are excellent points in the article, it, again, is strictly from the woman’s viewpoint. Men are, again, invisible to our media and the writers they employ.

While their are excellent points in the article, it, again, is strictly from the woman’s viewpoint. Men are, again, invisible to our media and the writers they employ.

Thoughtful and very insightful reading from a surprising source.
The facts and perspectives in Ms. Jones’ article may appear on the surface to be negative.
Such attitudes may in the long run cause a drop in the divorce rate, if not a rise in the marriage rate. Here is why:
Since marriage is becoming so ‘optional’, rather than ‘necessary’, what marriages are entered into should be longer lasting, should they not?
I hope so, for the sake of our children and their children.
And for God’s Sake.

Thoughtful and very insightful reading from a surprising source.
The facts and perspectives in Ms. Jones’ article may appear on the surface to be negative.
Such attitudes may in the long run cause a drop in the divorce rate, if not a rise in the marriage rate. Here is why:
Since marriage is becoming so ‘optional’, rather than ‘necessary’, what marriages are entered into should be longer lasting, should they not?
I hope so, for the sake of our children and their children.
And for God’s Sake.