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A Response to Readers’ Comments

2006-07-30
By

Some of the comments on my last post, “The Boy Problem in Education is the Nation’s Problem,” deserve a response, (the original comments are posted below that post).  Denis said, “FEMALES brought this situation about, both through action and inaction.”  A small group of women brought about many of society’s current problems through political action.  Court decisions created some of them.  Many women did not want the changes feminism brought. Much of the feminist movement in the 1960s and 1970s occurred while some of us were children and some women of today weren’t born yet.  Many women simply inherited those societal changes.  Denis has a better point about inaction.  Many women, including myself, did nothing for two reasons.

The first is that we devoted so much time and effort to our education and careers that we didn’t seek information on these issues.  Some men are guilty of that as well.  For example, people who didn’t have sons in school didn’t notice inequities in education.  Likewise, many people never thought about the possibility of false accusations of domestic violence until someone they knew was falsely accused.

The second reason is that people have to actively seek information about these issues.  The major newspapers and tv networks provide little and, often one-sided, coverage.  For example, the feature story on Friday’s episode of 20/20 was about an abused wife.  Additionally, it was the second airing of that segment.  According to the CDC website, “a national study found that 29% of women and 22% of men had experienced physical, sexual or psychological intimate partner violence during their lifetime.”  However, I don’t recall seeing any stories on major newsmagazine shows featuring abused men.  I didn’t become aware of men’s issues until I started listening to talk radio and getting news from the internet.   Websites such this one bring men’s issues to light.  Letter writing campaigns to tv networks, newspapers and their advertisers might persuade them to provide more fair coverage on issues such as sexual harassment, domestic violence and family courts.

Denis dismisses the fact that women were discouraged from becoming homemakers, yet it is the major way feminism hurt women.  In her comments, Dierdre rightly points out that it wasn’t just feminists pushing women into careers. My parents, teachers, friends, (male and female), and the media all pushed the idea that career success was everything.  Men aren’t exempt: Many of them wanted their future wives to be career women.  Many women told females never to give up careers because, if they became housewives, they would end up penniless with children to care for when their husbands traded them in for newer models.  Schools taught that having children causes overpopulation and lowers the parents’ standard of living.

Finally, authors like Darla Shine, (Happy Housewives), and Carrie Lukas, (The Politically Incorrect Guide to Women, Sex, and Feminism), are letting women know that homemaking is a valid choice. However, feminists who bash women for wanting to be housewives are still around.  Last week “philosopher” Linda Hirshman, (Get to Work), described stay at home moms as mindless or intellectually dead, (I don’t remember her exact words), on a talk radio show.  Many girls grew up hearing comments like that.   Programs like “Desperate Housewives” reinforce the low esteem in which society holds housewives by portraying them as neurotics, domineering bitches, gold diggers, adulteresses or incompetent flakes.

Denis points out that women usually initiate divorce proceedings.  This doesn’t tell the whole story.  The spouse who files isn’t always the spouse who brought about the end of the marriage. For example, one spouse may commit adultery and the other may react by filing for divorce.  In a later post, Denis offered some constructive suggestions starting with family courts.  Like most Americans, he wants equitable division of rights and responsibilities.  Women, (and many men), haven’t spoken up about the subject because they didn’t know about it.  Those who haven’t been through the system and don’t have a family member or close friend who has have no idea what settlements and arrangements are made.  Even when one knows of an unfair decision, he/she still doesn’t know if that is an exception or the rule.  The best thing that can be done to raise awareness is to publicize inequitable rulings on general interest websites and in the mainstream press.

A comment on male contraception as a means to end unwanted paternity was also posted.  There is hope on that front.  Hormonal contraceptives to suppress sperm production are being tested in conjunction with testosterone replacement.  The challenge is stopping sperm production without loss of libido or secondary sex characteristics.

I also agree with Denis that affirmative action should end.  Most of those whom it supposedly “helped” would have achieved the same things without it and are angry to have their hard work and achievements discounted. While it may be common in government agencies and government-funded institutions, affirmative action may have quietly ended in private industry.  The possibility of discrimination suits for firings or failure to promote may even discourage companies from hiring minorities and women.

False accusations of sexual harassment or any other crime should be prosecuted.  Those who make such accusations should be given meaningful sentences.  Additionally, those who file false charges should be subject to civil lawsuits for damages caused by false accusations.

Denis also points out the unequal penalties for men and women who have sex with minors.  I wrote a previous post the topic, “When Beauty is the Beast,” in which I pointed out that society has a duty to protect children from predators of both sexes.  When it comes to this topic, it seems more women than men support harsh sentences for female predators.  Some men see it as fulfillment of a boy’s fantasy and don’t take it seriously as a crime.

In his last post, Denis stated “Schools must treat boys and men fairly compared to girls and women.”  That was the point of my last post.

I also agree with Denis that laws apply equally to all.  Furthermore, the facts about domestic violence should receive more publicity.  22% of men have suffered some sort of abuse by a partner and 60% of child abusers are women.  Female victims of domestic violence receive many column inches of newsprint and plenty of tv airtime, but male victims don’t.

I, too, believe those who served in the military should be rewarded for their service and those who served in combat should be given more than those who haven’t. The GI Bill is one such reward.

Denis suggests women vote Republican.  Democrats have become the “victicrat” party.  Luckily, many have tired or their message that more tax money and more government involvement in peoples’ lives will solve societal ills.  The drawback to the idea of voting Republican in some areas is a lack of Republican candidates.  Open seats in my state legislative district include one senator and three delegates.  How many Republicans filed to run for these offices to date?  Zero.  People who want a more equitable society and are able to do so should consider running for office.

Denis states that women have to choose between hostility from men and being treated preferentially or honest and fair treatment.   That is the wrong approach.  It only discourages women from trying to highlight inequities and encouraging fair treatment of men.  When a woman’s attempt to highlight an injustice results in her and all women being blamed for that injustice, she thinks, “Why bother?”  More equitable laws won’t be achieved by alienating half of the population.  When someone is on your side, accept it.  Save the hostility for those who are clearly against you.

Copyright Eva Ellsworth, 07/31/06, all rights reserved

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Didn't make Oprah's Book Club. And Ronnie doesn't care. Man up. Buy the book now on Amazon.com. Or listen to Ronnie tell a story at escaping-from-reality.com.


  • http://mensnewsdaily.com admin

    Many “advocates” of men’s rights use nasty invective and heaps of verbiage to make their case. Questioning such advocates will sometimes result in a virtual piling-on of the questioner.

    This is sort of advocacy is well represented around the Internet. Visit the Daily Kos or Eschaton and find out what it means to “question authority” in those orthodox environments.

    It’s easy to feed red meat to your own social or political faction – but MND is NOT like Kos or Eschaton.

    Our challenge is to expand the debate by granting reasonable opponents the opportunity to make their case without being shouted down.

    This is a more difficult path than that chosen by other community-based websites – but the long-term rewards are much greater.

    The key for us, it seems to me, is to avoid substituting personal attacks for a reasoned argument – and to avoid being suckered into emotional responses.

    Any martial artist reading this knows exactly what I am talking about.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com admin

    Many “advocates” of men’s rights use nasty invective and heaps of verbiage to make their case. Questioning such advocates will sometimes result in a virtual piling-on of the questioner.

    This is sort of advocacy is well represented around the Internet. Visit the Daily Kos or Eschaton and find out what it means to “question authority” in those orthodox environments.

    It’s easy to feed red meat to your own social or political faction – but MND is NOT like Kos or Eschaton.

    Our challenge is to expand the debate by granting reasonable opponents the opportunity to make their case without being shouted down.

    This is a more difficult path than that chosen by other community-based websites – but the long-term rewards are much greater.

    The key for us, it seems to me, is to avoid substituting personal attacks for a reasoned argument – and to avoid being suckered into emotional responses.

    Any martial artist reading this knows exactly what I am talking about.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com admin

    Many “advocates” of men’s rights use nasty invective and heaps of verbiage to make their case. Questioning such advocates will sometimes result in a virtual piling-on of the questioner.

    This is sort of advocacy is well represented around the Internet. Visit the Daily Kos or Eschaton and find out what it means to “question authority” in those orthodox environments.

    It’s easy to feed red meat to your own social or political faction – but MND is NOT like Kos or Eschaton.

    Our challenge is to expand the debate by granting reasonable opponents the opportunity to make their case without being shouted down.

    This is a more difficult path than that chosen by other community-based websites – but the long-term rewards are much greater.

    The key for us, it seems to me, is to avoid substituting personal attacks for a reasoned argument – and to avoid being suckered into emotional responses.

    Any martial artist reading this knows exactly what I am talking about.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com admin

    Many “advocates” of men’s rights use nasty invective and heaps of verbiage to make their case. Questioning such advocates will sometimes result in a virtual piling-on of the questioner.

    This is sort of advocacy is well represented around the Internet. Visit the Daily Kos or Eschaton and find out what it means to “question authority” in those orthodox environments.

    It’s easy to feed red meat to your own social or political faction – but MND is NOT like Kos or Eschaton.

    Our challenge is to expand the debate by granting reasonable opponents the opportunity to make their case without being shouted down.

    This is a more difficult path than that chosen by other community-based websites – but the long-term rewards are much greater.

    The key for us, it seems to me, is to avoid substituting personal attacks for a reasoned argument – and to avoid being suckered into emotional responses.

    Any martial artist reading this knows exactly what I am talking about.

  • zed

    “Someone’s got his head so far up his ass, he’s never seen the sun.”

    um, admin, is this an example of “civil discourse”?

  • zed

    “Someone’s got his head so far up his ass, he’s never seen the sun.”

    um, admin, is this an example of “civil discourse”?

  • zed

    “Someone’s got his head so far up his ass, he’s never seen the sun.”

    um, admin, is this an example of “civil discourse”?

  • zed

    “Someone’s got his head so far up his ass, he’s never seen the sun.”

    um, admin, is this an example of “civil discourse”?

  • zed

    I must have missed a tag in the previous post, so here is a corrected version to make the quotes and replies more clear. I wish this comment function had either preview or edit capabilities. – admin, please delete my previous post, if you can.

    Mjaybee said,

    “I am doing something about the situation.

    Usually when a critical bill needs calls, emails, etc. to Sacramento ( I am in California ), I call, email, etc. in support of that bill, and urge a network of about 75 single and divorced guys to do the same. BTW, my divorce attorney usually sides with me on these bills – she is a woman.

    I also have a network of friends, many single fathers like myself, who spread the word about the many legal pitfalls of marriage in this state to any guy we know who is about to get or who is already engaged. We’ve stopped at least five or six guys from going down that road in the past year or so.

    This may not seem like much, but what if every single guy did this in the county? Sure would make a lot of difference eventually, if only in terms of volume, but you have to start somewhere.”

    So, you are just doing the same thing many of the rest of us are doing, in addition to spreading the message on the internet which reaches a lot more young men than a personal network – “don’t get married.”

    But, wait, if we do that we are saying that 100% of all women are predatory gold diggers just looking for divorce settlements.

    “And such a groundswell of change would have a lot more strength and credibility if it came from both men AND women. Otherwise, it would be very easy to dismiss as reactionary “sexism” by the feminist-leaning legal industry lobbyists.”

    If such a groundswell of demand for change was likely to come from women, it would have shown up long before now. Everything men have done for the past 40 years has been dismissed as “reactionary sexism” by the feminists and everything women have done in men’s behalf has been dismissed as “internalizing their own oppression.” Getting a few women on board who are so fragile that they bolt at the first mention of a dirty word requires walking on eggshells so much that it will take all the punch out of the message.

    “By stamping all women with the same label, you weaken the only movement that can initiate any change in the system, and that is a big mistake.”

    Yeah, stamping all men with the same label has certainly rendered the feminazi’s blitkrieg totally ineffective – NOT! Yeah, everytime some smug femnoid announced “all men are pigs” women by the thousands stood up and booed her and shouted her down – NOT! Yeah, when they started doping boys in schools to make them more docile, mothers rose up en masse to say “you will not drug my boy” – NOT!

    Women haven’t done squat about this, and the best predicter of future behavior is past behavior – they are highly unlikely to do squat about it in the future, no matter how many satin pillows some men want to carry them around on.

    They will begin to do something about it when they can no longer find husbands, and when they get the consistent message from men “well, if you want men to start getting married again, then get the legislatures to de-criminialize it.”

    I’ve been doing everthing you are doing since the 70s, trying to keep things from getting this bad. It is usually a whole lot easier to put out a fire when it is small than when the whole damn house is in flames. I tried to enlist women as allies then, and always got dismissed as a reactionary sexist, because, don’chaknow “not all women are like that.”

    Personally, I really don’t need to do anything about the situation, because I paid attention to the warning signs and kept from getting caught in the machine. I’ve been pointing out those same warning signs to other men since the early 70s, trying to keep them from getting caught in the machine.

    If that comes across as “hating women”, then so be it – everything I have done, down to opening doors for women, has been blasted as “misogyny”. Might as well go my own way, do what I choose to do, and let the chips fall where they may.

    If “good women” want a chance to get married and have a husband, then the girls better get up off their butts and start fighting the grrls. And, any of them who are going to flounce out in a snit because some guy said something that made her “feel unsafe” then she is probably too high-maintenance to ever be of much use to the cause anyway

  • zed

    I must have missed a tag in the previous post, so here is a corrected version to make the quotes and replies more clear. I wish this comment function had either preview or edit capabilities. – admin, please delete my previous post, if you can.

    Mjaybee said,

    “I am doing something about the situation.

    Usually when a critical bill needs calls, emails, etc. to Sacramento ( I am in California ), I call, email, etc. in support of that bill, and urge a network of about 75 single and divorced guys to do the same. BTW, my divorce attorney usually sides with me on these bills – she is a woman.

    I also have a network of friends, many single fathers like myself, who spread the word about the many legal pitfalls of marriage in this state to any guy we know who is about to get or who is already engaged. We’ve stopped at least five or six guys from going down that road in the past year or so.

    This may not seem like much, but what if every single guy did this in the county? Sure would make a lot of difference eventually, if only in terms of volume, but you have to start somewhere.”

    So, you are just doing the same thing many of the rest of us are doing, in addition to spreading the message on the internet which reaches a lot more young men than a personal network – “don’t get married.”

    But, wait, if we do that we are saying that 100% of all women are predatory gold diggers just looking for divorce settlements.

    “And such a groundswell of change would have a lot more strength and credibility if it came from both men AND women. Otherwise, it would be very easy to dismiss as reactionary “sexism” by the feminist-leaning legal industry lobbyists.”

    If such a groundswell of demand for change was likely to come from women, it would have shown up long before now. Everything men have done for the past 40 years has been dismissed as “reactionary sexism” by the feminists and everything women have done in men’s behalf has been dismissed as “internalizing their own oppression.” Getting a few women on board who are so fragile that they bolt at the first mention of a dirty word requires walking on eggshells so much that it will take all the punch out of the message.

    “By stamping all women with the same label, you weaken the only movement that can initiate any change in the system, and that is a big mistake.”

    Yeah, stamping all men with the same label has certainly rendered the feminazi’s blitkrieg totally ineffective – NOT! Yeah, everytime some smug femnoid announced “all men are pigs” women by the thousands stood up and booed her and shouted her down – NOT! Yeah, when they started doping boys in schools to make them more docile, mothers rose up en masse to say “you will not drug my boy” – NOT!

    Women haven’t done squat about this, and the best predicter of future behavior is past behavior – they are highly unlikely to do squat about it in the future, no matter how many satin pillows some men want to carry them around on.

    They will begin to do something about it when they can no longer find husbands, and when they get the consistent message from men “well, if you want men to start getting married again, then get the legislatures to de-criminialize it.”

    I’ve been doing everthing you are doing since the 70s, trying to keep things from getting this bad. It is usually a whole lot easier to put out a fire when it is small than when the whole damn house is in flames. I tried to enlist women as allies then, and always got dismissed as a reactionary sexist, because, don’chaknow “not all women are like that.”

    Personally, I really don’t need to do anything about the situation, because I paid attention to the warning signs and kept from getting caught in the machine. I’ve been pointing out those same warning signs to other men since the early 70s, trying to keep them from getting caught in the machine.

    If that comes across as “hating women”, then so be it – everything I have done, down to opening doors for women, has been blasted as “misogyny”. Might as well go my own way, do what I choose to do, and let the chips fall where they may.

    If “good women” want a chance to get married and have a husband, then the girls better get up off their butts and start fighting the grrls. And, any of them who are going to flounce out in a snit because some guy said something that made her “feel unsafe” then she is probably too high-maintenance to ever be of much use to the cause anyway

  • zed

    I must have missed a tag in the previous post, so here is a corrected version to make the quotes and replies more clear. I wish this comment function had either preview or edit capabilities. – admin, please delete my previous post, if you can.

    Mjaybee said,

    “I am doing something about the situation.

    Usually when a critical bill needs calls, emails, etc. to Sacramento ( I am in California ), I call, email, etc. in support of that bill, and urge a network of about 75 single and divorced guys to do the same. BTW, my divorce attorney usually sides with me on these bills – she is a woman.

    I also have a network of friends, many single fathers like myself, who spread the word about the many legal pitfalls of marriage in this state to any guy we know who is about to get or who is already engaged. We’ve stopped at least five or six guys from going down that road in the past year or so.

    This may not seem like much, but what if every single guy did this in the county? Sure would make a lot of difference eventually, if only in terms of volume, but you have to start somewhere.”

    So, you are just doing the same thing many of the rest of us are doing, in addition to spreading the message on the internet which reaches a lot more young men than a personal network – “don’t get married.”

    But, wait, if we do that we are saying that 100% of all women are predatory gold diggers just looking for divorce settlements.

    “And such a groundswell of change would have a lot more strength and credibility if it came from both men AND women. Otherwise, it would be very easy to dismiss as reactionary “sexism” by the feminist-leaning legal industry lobbyists.”

    If such a groundswell of demand for change was likely to come from women, it would have shown up long before now. Everything men have done for the past 40 years has been dismissed as “reactionary sexism” by the feminists and everything women have done in men’s behalf has been dismissed as “internalizing their own oppression.” Getting a few women on board who are so fragile that they bolt at the first mention of a dirty word requires walking on eggshells so much that it will take all the punch out of the message.

    “By stamping all women with the same label, you weaken the only movement that can initiate any change in the system, and that is a big mistake.”

    Yeah, stamping all men with the same label has certainly rendered the feminazi’s blitkrieg totally ineffective – NOT! Yeah, everytime some smug femnoid announced “all men are pigs” women by the thousands stood up and booed her and shouted her down – NOT! Yeah, when they started doping boys in schools to make them more docile, mothers rose up en masse to say “you will not drug my boy” – NOT!

    Women haven’t done squat about this, and the best predicter of future behavior is past behavior – they are highly unlikely to do squat about it in the future, no matter how many satin pillows some men want to carry them around on.

    They will begin to do something about it when they can no longer find husbands, and when they get the consistent message from men “well, if you want men to start getting married again, then get the legislatures to de-criminialize it.”

    I’ve been doing everthing you are doing since the 70s, trying to keep things from getting this bad. It is usually a whole lot easier to put out a fire when it is small than when the whole damn house is in flames. I tried to enlist women as allies then, and always got dismissed as a reactionary sexist, because, don’chaknow “not all women are like that.”

    Personally, I really don’t need to do anything about the situation, because I paid attention to the warning signs and kept from getting caught in the machine. I’ve been pointing out those same warning signs to other men since the early 70s, trying to keep them from getting caught in the machine.

    If that comes across as “hating women”, then so be it – everything I have done, down to opening doors for women, has been blasted as “misogyny”. Might as well go my own way, do what I choose to do, and let the chips fall where they may.

    If “good women” want a chance to get married and have a husband, then the girls better get up off their butts and start fighting the grrls. And, any of them who are going to flounce out in a snit because some guy said something that made her “feel unsafe” then she is probably too high-maintenance to ever be of much use to the cause anyway

  • zed

    I must have missed a tag in the previous post, so here is a corrected version to make the quotes and replies more clear. I wish this comment function had either preview or edit capabilities. – admin, please delete my previous post, if you can.

    Mjaybee said,

    “I am doing something about the situation.

    Usually when a critical bill needs calls, emails, etc. to Sacramento ( I am in California ), I call, email, etc. in support of that bill, and urge a network of about 75 single and divorced guys to do the same. BTW, my divorce attorney usually sides with me on these bills – she is a woman.

    I also have a network of friends, many single fathers like myself, who spread the word about the many legal pitfalls of marriage in this state to any guy we know who is about to get or who is already engaged. We’ve stopped at least five or six guys from going down that road in the past year or so.

    This may not seem like much, but what if every single guy did this in the county? Sure would make a lot of difference eventually, if only in terms of volume, but you have to start somewhere.”

    So, you are just doing the same thing many of the rest of us are doing, in addition to spreading the message on the internet which reaches a lot more young men than a personal network – “don’t get married.”

    But, wait, if we do that we are saying that 100% of all women are predatory gold diggers just looking for divorce settlements.

    “And such a groundswell of change would have a lot more strength and credibility if it came from both men AND women. Otherwise, it would be very easy to dismiss as reactionary “sexism” by the feminist-leaning legal industry lobbyists.”

    If such a groundswell of demand for change was likely to come from women, it would have shown up long before now. Everything men have done for the past 40 years has been dismissed as “reactionary sexism” by the feminists and everything women have done in men’s behalf has been dismissed as “internalizing their own oppression.” Getting a few women on board who are so fragile that they bolt at the first mention of a dirty word requires walking on eggshells so much that it will take all the punch out of the message.

    “By stamping all women with the same label, you weaken the only movement that can initiate any change in the system, and that is a big mistake.”

    Yeah, stamping all men with the same label has certainly rendered the feminazi’s blitkrieg totally ineffective – NOT! Yeah, everytime some smug femnoid announced “all men are pigs” women by the thousands stood up and booed her and shouted her down – NOT! Yeah, when they started doping boys in schools to make them more docile, mothers rose up en masse to say “you will not drug my boy” – NOT!

    Women haven’t done squat about this, and the best predicter of future behavior is past behavior – they are highly unlikely to do squat about it in the future, no matter how many satin pillows some men want to carry them around on.

    They will begin to do something about it when they can no longer find husbands, and when they get the consistent message from men “well, if you want men to start getting married again, then get the legislatures to de-criminialize it.”

    I’ve been doing everthing you are doing since the 70s, trying to keep things from getting this bad. It is usually a whole lot easier to put out a fire when it is small than when the whole damn house is in flames. I tried to enlist women as allies then, and always got dismissed as a reactionary sexist, because, don’chaknow “not all women are like that.”

    Personally, I really don’t need to do anything about the situation, because I paid attention to the warning signs and kept from getting caught in the machine. I’ve been pointing out those same warning signs to other men since the early 70s, trying to keep them from getting caught in the machine.

    If that comes across as “hating women”, then so be it – everything I have done, down to opening doors for women, has been blasted as “misogyny”. Might as well go my own way, do what I choose to do, and let the chips fall where they may.

    If “good women” want a chance to get married and have a husband, then the girls better get up off their butts and start fighting the grrls. And, any of them who are going to flounce out in a snit because some guy said something that made her “feel unsafe” then she is probably too high-maintenance to ever be of much use to the cause anyway

  • fourthwire

    “Someone’s got his head so far up his ass, he’s never seen the sun.”

    I don’t doubt it for a moment……….

    ……..and with any luck, “someone” will manage to dislodge it before you suffocate, mjaybee.

    That’s just my opinion, based on the quality and content of your posts on this forum.

    “If you have a problem with someone who would rather get out of his chair and try to change a shitty situation than sit on his ass whining, then I guess this isn’t the place for me.”

    Ever hear the phrase, “Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way.”…?

    With respect to:

    - sharing their observations, information, and passions about men’s rights infractions and issues

    - not to mention communicating, articulating, and educating others about the nature of feminism, and the injustices that men face daily, MEN like Denis, the Gonzman, Dave Usher, and others LEAD.

    Men like myself and others occasionally lead, but mostly FOLLOW as part of the learning process about men’s rights issues.

    I try to show my appreciation for the postings by the above-mentioned MEN and the countless others not mentioned, and those bloggers featured on this site, together with relevant news stories shown on it.

    I have learned much from those MEN, and continue to learn more every day.

    And you, mjaybee…… you apparently are getting yourself the hell out of the way, in the context of participation on this forum.

    “Hope you folks can get it together to actually make a difference.”

    Thanks for your best wishes, mjaybee.

    Best of luck with your lobbying and networking regarding men’s rights issues here in California.

    Hope that you can get it together yourself.

  • fourthwire

    “Someone’s got his head so far up his ass, he’s never seen the sun.”

    I don’t doubt it for a moment……….

    ……..and with any luck, “someone” will manage to dislodge it before you suffocate, mjaybee.

    That’s just my opinion, based on the quality and content of your posts on this forum.

    “If you have a problem with someone who would rather get out of his chair and try to change a shitty situation than sit on his ass whining, then I guess this isn’t the place for me.”

    Ever hear the phrase, “Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way.”…?

    With respect to:

    - sharing their observations, information, and passions about men’s rights infractions and issues

    - not to mention communicating, articulating, and educating others about the nature of feminism, and the injustices that men face daily, MEN like Denis, the Gonzman, Dave Usher, and others LEAD.

    Men like myself and others occasionally lead, but mostly FOLLOW as part of the learning process about men’s rights issues.

    I try to show my appreciation for the postings by the above-mentioned MEN and the countless others not mentioned, and those bloggers featured on this site, together with relevant news stories shown on it.

    I have learned much from those MEN, and continue to learn more every day.

    And you, mjaybee…… you apparently are getting yourself the hell out of the way, in the context of participation on this forum.

    “Hope you folks can get it together to actually make a difference.”

    Thanks for your best wishes, mjaybee.

    Best of luck with your lobbying and networking regarding men’s rights issues here in California.

    Hope that you can get it together yourself.

  • fourthwire

    “Someone’s got his head so far up his ass, he’s never seen the sun.”

    I don’t doubt it for a moment……….

    ……..and with any luck, “someone” will manage to dislodge it before you suffocate, mjaybee.

    That’s just my opinion, based on the quality and content of your posts on this forum.

    “If you have a problem with someone who would rather get out of his chair and try to change a shitty situation than sit on his ass whining, then I guess this isn’t the place for me.”

    Ever hear the phrase, “Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way.”…?

    With respect to:

    - sharing their observations, information, and passions about men’s rights infractions and issues

    - not to mention communicating, articulating, and educating others about the nature of feminism, and the injustices that men face daily, MEN like Denis, the Gonzman, Dave Usher, and others LEAD.

    Men like myself and others occasionally lead, but mostly FOLLOW as part of the learning process about men’s rights issues.

    I try to show my appreciation for the postings by the above-mentioned MEN and the countless others not mentioned, and those bloggers featured on this site, together with relevant news stories shown on it.

    I have learned much from those MEN, and continue to learn more every day.

    And you, mjaybee…… you apparently are getting yourself the hell out of the way, in the context of participation on this forum.

    “Hope you folks can get it together to actually make a difference.”

    Thanks for your best wishes, mjaybee.

    Best of luck with your lobbying and networking regarding men’s rights issues here in California.

    Hope that you can get it together yourself.

  • fourthwire

    “Someone’s got his head so far up his ass, he’s never seen the sun.”

    I don’t doubt it for a moment……….

    ……..and with any luck, “someone” will manage to dislodge it before you suffocate, mjaybee.

    That’s just my opinion, based on the quality and content of your posts on this forum.

    “If you have a problem with someone who would rather get out of his chair and try to change a shitty situation than sit on his ass whining, then I guess this isn’t the place for me.”

    Ever hear the phrase, “Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way.”…?

    With respect to:

    - sharing their observations, information, and passions about men’s rights infractions and issues

    - not to mention communicating, articulating, and educating others about the nature of feminism, and the injustices that men face daily, MEN like Denis, the Gonzman, Dave Usher, and others LEAD.

    Men like myself and others occasionally lead, but mostly FOLLOW as part of the learning process about men’s rights issues.

    I try to show my appreciation for the postings by the above-mentioned MEN and the countless others not mentioned, and those bloggers featured on this site, together with relevant news stories shown on it.

    I have learned much from those MEN, and continue to learn more every day.

    And you, mjaybee…… you apparently are getting yourself the hell out of the way, in the context of participation on this forum.

    “Hope you folks can get it together to actually make a difference.”

    Thanks for your best wishes, mjaybee.

    Best of luck with your lobbying and networking regarding men’s rights issues here in California.

    Hope that you can get it together yourself.

  • Mjaybee

    Someone’s got his head so far up his ass, he’s never seen the sun.

    If you have a problem with someone who would rather get out of his chair and try to change a shitty situation than sit on his ass whining, then I guess this isn’t the place for me.

    Hope you folks can get it together to actually make a difference.

  • Mjaybee

    Someone’s got his head so far up his ass, he’s never seen the sun.

    If you have a problem with someone who would rather get out of his chair and try to change a shitty situation than sit on his ass whining, then I guess this isn’t the place for me.

    Hope you folks can get it together to actually make a difference.

  • Mjaybee

    Someone’s got his head so far up his ass, he’s never seen the sun.

    If you have a problem with someone who would rather get out of his chair and try to change a shitty situation than sit on his ass whining, then I guess this isn’t the place for me.

    Hope you folks can get it together to actually make a difference.

  • Mjaybee

    Someone’s got his head so far up his ass, he’s never seen the sun.

    If you have a problem with someone who would rather get out of his chair and try to change a shitty situation than sit on his ass whining, then I guess this isn’t the place for me.

    Hope you folks can get it together to actually make a difference.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/category/bullseye/gonzos-bar-go-go-grill The Gonzman

    I think I understand the rules of the debate now. Sorry I didn’t pick up on it earlier. Women bad, men good. Is that about all?

    100% of women are predatory and just want divorce settlements?

    100% of men are innocent victims of physically violent women who are never prosecuted?

    100% of women wake up every day singing the praises of feminism?

    Since that is what you choose to want to see, then I guess, yes. And I suppose the next time you see the male hitch-hiker, and with nobody else in the car, you’ll be picking him up, because, yanno, otherwise you’ll be blaming 100% of the men for…

    Yeah. It does sound a bit stupid, doesn’t it?

    I really thought this was a news site where points could be discussed, but it is more like a disgruntled complaining board. You guys need to get out more; there are very good men and women getting by without constant political/social war.

    I see. Don’t complain, don’t be angry, don’t point out what a crock of shit things are, don’t agitate for change, and it will all be peachy keen? Did I miss anything?

    I’ve never been part of a discussion in which when I agree with the other posters, they denounce me for who I am. I think perhaps decent women need to take a pass on the gender wars until you men sort it out with the Grrrrrls.

    Well, why not? You kind sat it out while the “grrls” were busy giving it to us in the keister, and giggling over your latest man-bashing card, and taking the affirmative action pass that put a better qualified man out in the cold, so why the hell change now?

    You seem to forget the old saying which can be paraphrased that “The only thing which made the success of evil women possible was the inaction of so-called good women.” But of course, you own no responsibility for it, do you. You never explicitly gave your approval, you were just waiting for us to “help ourselves.”

    So – what is the difference? There ya go, toots. You have your excuse to continue your inaction, and your excuse to – once again – blame it on those darn men.

    Wake up, guys. You just lost yourselves a valuable ally from the winning team.

    No, we didn’t. We just weeded out another fair weather friend who would only be on board so long as it didn’t get dirty, and she didn’t chip the polish on her nails.

    Women whyo are offended at the anger of men would do very well to sit back and consider their role in creating this situation by sitting back and doing nothing while all this was implemented. Yes, you helped when you let these poisonous femherroids speak for you without contradiction, and yes you helped when you reaped the benefits without feeling a lick of guilt over it, until what you had was secure.

    You have culpability in this, and a good deal of this anger that gives you the vapors is richly deserved, and should be considered a penance. When I start seeing more than a scant few of you – and Glenn Sack’s famous list is still at less than a hundred, and most of them pretty obscure – sprouting a pair of ovaries, speaking up to these feministas and telling them to sit down and shut up, then I will take American Womanhood serious as wanting to correct the problem.

    We’re disenfranchised from our families. We’re estranged from our children. It is done with the blessing of the law, and at the behest of women who claim to speak for all women, and whom the very very vast and very very overwhelming majority of women have not said a peep about this claim. And it has pissed us off.

    Oh, and…

    Guys need to stop cheating

    It’s not us commiting paternity fraud, Deidre, and then hiding behind those children in an attempt to continue that defrauding. And just who are “all those guys” cheating with, anyway?

    I guess it’s okay for you to blame 100% of the population.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/category/bullseye/gonzos-bar-go-go-grill The Gonzman

    I think I understand the rules of the debate now. Sorry I didn’t pick up on it earlier. Women bad, men good. Is that about all?

    100% of women are predatory and just want divorce settlements?

    100% of men are innocent victims of physically violent women who are never prosecuted?

    100% of women wake up every day singing the praises of feminism?

    Since that is what you choose to want to see, then I guess, yes. And I suppose the next time you see the male hitch-hiker, and with nobody else in the car, you’ll be picking him up, because, yanno, otherwise you’ll be blaming 100% of the men for…

    Yeah. It does sound a bit stupid, doesn’t it?

    I really thought this was a news site where points could be discussed, but it is more like a disgruntled complaining board. You guys need to get out more; there are very good men and women getting by without constant political/social war.

    I see. Don’t complain, don’t be angry, don’t point out what a crock of shit things are, don’t agitate for change, and it will all be peachy keen? Did I miss anything?

    I’ve never been part of a discussion in which when I agree with the other posters, they denounce me for who I am. I think perhaps decent women need to take a pass on the gender wars until you men sort it out with the Grrrrrls.

    Well, why not? You kind sat it out while the “grrls” were busy giving it to us in the keister, and giggling over your latest man-bashing card, and taking the affirmative action pass that put a better qualified man out in the cold, so why the hell change now?

    You seem to forget the old saying which can be paraphrased that “The only thing which made the success of evil women possible was the inaction of so-called good women.” But of course, you own no responsibility for it, do you. You never explicitly gave your approval, you were just waiting for us to “help ourselves.”

    So – what is the difference? There ya go, toots. You have your excuse to continue your inaction, and your excuse to – once again – blame it on those darn men.

    Wake up, guys. You just lost yourselves a valuable ally from the winning team.

    No, we didn’t. We just weeded out another fair weather friend who would only be on board so long as it didn’t get dirty, and she didn’t chip the polish on her nails.

    Women whyo are offended at the anger of men would do very well to sit back and consider their role in creating this situation by sitting back and doing nothing while all this was implemented. Yes, you helped when you let these poisonous femherroids speak for you without contradiction, and yes you helped when you reaped the benefits without feeling a lick of guilt over it, until what you had was secure.

    You have culpability in this, and a good deal of this anger that gives you the vapors is richly deserved, and should be considered a penance. When I start seeing more than a scant few of you – and Glenn Sack’s famous list is still at less than a hundred, and most of them pretty obscure – sprouting a pair of ovaries, speaking up to these feministas and telling them to sit down and shut up, then I will take American Womanhood serious as wanting to correct the problem.

    We’re disenfranchised from our families. We’re estranged from our children. It is done with the blessing of the law, and at the behest of women who claim to speak for all women, and whom the very very vast and very very overwhelming majority of women have not said a peep about this claim. And it has pissed us off.

    Oh, and…

    Guys need to stop cheating

    It’s not us commiting paternity fraud, Deidre, and then hiding behind those children in an attempt to continue that defrauding. And just who are “all those guys” cheating with, anyway?

    I guess it’s okay for you to blame 100% of the population.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/category/bullseye/gonzos-bar-go-go-grill The Gonzman

    I think I understand the rules of the debate now. Sorry I didn’t pick up on it earlier. Women bad, men good. Is that about all?

    100% of women are predatory and just want divorce settlements?

    100% of men are innocent victims of physically violent women who are never prosecuted?

    100% of women wake up every day singing the praises of feminism?

    Since that is what you choose to want to see, then I guess, yes. And I suppose the next time you see the male hitch-hiker, and with nobody else in the car, you’ll be picking him up, because, yanno, otherwise you’ll be blaming 100% of the men for…

    Yeah. It does sound a bit stupid, doesn’t it?

    I really thought this was a news site where points could be discussed, but it is more like a disgruntled complaining board. You guys need to get out more; there are very good men and women getting by without constant political/social war.

    I see. Don’t complain, don’t be angry, don’t point out what a crock of shit things are, don’t agitate for change, and it will all be peachy keen? Did I miss anything?

    I’ve never been part of a discussion in which when I agree with the other posters, they denounce me for who I am. I think perhaps decent women need to take a pass on the gender wars until you men sort it out with the Grrrrrls.

    Well, why not? You kind sat it out while the “grrls” were busy giving it to us in the keister, and giggling over your latest man-bashing card, and taking the affirmative action pass that put a better qualified man out in the cold, so why the hell change now?

    You seem to forget the old saying which can be paraphrased that “The only thing which made the success of evil women possible was the inaction of so-called good women.” But of course, you own no responsibility for it, do you. You never explicitly gave your approval, you were just waiting for us to “help ourselves.”

    So – what is the difference? There ya go, toots. You have your excuse to continue your inaction, and your excuse to – once again – blame it on those darn men.

    Wake up, guys. You just lost yourselves a valuable ally from the winning team.

    No, we didn’t. We just weeded out another fair weather friend who would only be on board so long as it didn’t get dirty, and she didn’t chip the polish on her nails.

    Women whyo are offended at the anger of men would do very well to sit back and consider their role in creating this situation by sitting back and doing nothing while all this was implemented. Yes, you helped when you let these poisonous femherroids speak for you without contradiction, and yes you helped when you reaped the benefits without feeling a lick of guilt over it, until what you had was secure.

    You have culpability in this, and a good deal of this anger that gives you the vapors is richly deserved, and should be considered a penance. When I start seeing more than a scant few of you – and Glenn Sack’s famous list is still at less than a hundred, and most of them pretty obscure – sprouting a pair of ovaries, speaking up to these feministas and telling them to sit down and shut up, then I will take American Womanhood serious as wanting to correct the problem.

    We’re disenfranchised from our families. We’re estranged from our children. It is done with the blessing of the law, and at the behest of women who claim to speak for all women, and whom the very very vast and very very overwhelming majority of women have not said a peep about this claim. And it has pissed us off.

    Oh, and…

    Guys need to stop cheating

    It’s not us commiting paternity fraud, Deidre, and then hiding behind those children in an attempt to continue that defrauding. And just who are “all those guys” cheating with, anyway?

    I guess it’s okay for you to blame 100% of the population.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/category/bullseye/gonzos-bar-go-go-grill The Gonzman

    I think I understand the rules of the debate now. Sorry I didn’t pick up on it earlier. Women bad, men good. Is that about all?

    100% of women are predatory and just want divorce settlements?

    100% of men are innocent victims of physically violent women who are never prosecuted?

    100% of women wake up every day singing the praises of feminism?

    Since that is what you choose to want to see, then I guess, yes. And I suppose the next time you see the male hitch-hiker, and with nobody else in the car, you’ll be picking him up, because, yanno, otherwise you’ll be blaming 100% of the men for…

    Yeah. It does sound a bit stupid, doesn’t it?

    I really thought this was a news site where points could be discussed, but it is more like a disgruntled complaining board. You guys need to get out more; there are very good men and women getting by without constant political/social war.

    I see. Don’t complain, don’t be angry, don’t point out what a crock of shit things are, don’t agitate for change, and it will all be peachy keen? Did I miss anything?

    I’ve never been part of a discussion in which when I agree with the other posters, they denounce me for who I am. I think perhaps decent women need to take a pass on the gender wars until you men sort it out with the Grrrrrls.

    Well, why not? You kind sat it out while the “grrls” were busy giving it to us in the keister, and giggling over your latest man-bashing card, and taking the affirmative action pass that put a better qualified man out in the cold, so why the hell change now?

    You seem to forget the old saying which can be paraphrased that “The only thing which made the success of evil women possible was the inaction of so-called good women.” But of course, you own no responsibility for it, do you. You never explicitly gave your approval, you were just waiting for us to “help ourselves.”

    So – what is the difference? There ya go, toots. You have your excuse to continue your inaction, and your excuse to – once again – blame it on those darn men.

    Wake up, guys. You just lost yourselves a valuable ally from the winning team.

    No, we didn’t. We just weeded out another fair weather friend who would only be on board so long as it didn’t get dirty, and she didn’t chip the polish on her nails.

    Women whyo are offended at the anger of men would do very well to sit back and consider their role in creating this situation by sitting back and doing nothing while all this was implemented. Yes, you helped when you let these poisonous femherroids speak for you without contradiction, and yes you helped when you reaped the benefits without feeling a lick of guilt over it, until what you had was secure.

    You have culpability in this, and a good deal of this anger that gives you the vapors is richly deserved, and should be considered a penance. When I start seeing more than a scant few of you – and Glenn Sack’s famous list is still at less than a hundred, and most of them pretty obscure – sprouting a pair of ovaries, speaking up to these feministas and telling them to sit down and shut up, then I will take American Womanhood serious as wanting to correct the problem.

    We’re disenfranchised from our families. We’re estranged from our children. It is done with the blessing of the law, and at the behest of women who claim to speak for all women, and whom the very very vast and very very overwhelming majority of women have not said a peep about this claim. And it has pissed us off.

    Oh, and…

    Guys need to stop cheating

    It’s not us commiting paternity fraud, Deidre, and then hiding behind those children in an attempt to continue that defrauding. And just who are “all those guys” cheating with, anyway?

    I guess it’s okay for you to blame 100% of the population.

  • Mjaybee

    I am doing something about the situation.

    Usually when a critical bill needs calls, emails, etc. to Sacramento ( I am in California ), I call, email, etc. in support of that bill, and urge a network of about 75 single and divorced guys to do the same. BTW, my divorce attorney usually sides with me on these bills – she is a woman.

    I also have a network of friends, many single fathers like myself, who spread the word about the many legal pitfalls of marriage in this state to any guy we know who is about to get or who is already engaged. We’ve stopped at least five or six guys from going down that road in the past year or so.

    This may not seem like much, but what if every single guy did this in the county? Sure would make a lot of difference eventually, if only in terms of volume, but you have to start somewhere.

    And such a groundswell of change would have a lot more strength and credibility if it came from both men AND women. Otherwise, it would be very easy to dismiss as reactionary “sexism” by the feminist-leaning legal industry lobbyists.

    By stamping all women with the same label, you weaken the only movement that can initiate any change in the system, and that is a big mistake.

  • Mjaybee

    I am doing something about the situation.

    Usually when a critical bill needs calls, emails, etc. to Sacramento ( I am in California ), I call, email, etc. in support of that bill, and urge a network of about 75 single and divorced guys to do the same. BTW, my divorce attorney usually sides with me on these bills – she is a woman.

    I also have a network of friends, many single fathers like myself, who spread the word about the many legal pitfalls of marriage in this state to any guy we know who is about to get or who is already engaged. We’ve stopped at least five or six guys from going down that road in the past year or so.

    This may not seem like much, but what if every single guy did this in the county? Sure would make a lot of difference eventually, if only in terms of volume, but you have to start somewhere.

    And such a groundswell of change would have a lot more strength and credibility if it came from both men AND women. Otherwise, it would be very easy to dismiss as reactionary “sexism” by the feminist-leaning legal industry lobbyists.

    By stamping all women with the same label, you weaken the only movement that can initiate any change in the system, and that is a big mistake.

  • Mjaybee

    I am doing something about the situation.

    Usually when a critical bill needs calls, emails, etc. to Sacramento ( I am in California ), I call, email, etc. in support of that bill, and urge a network of about 75 single and divorced guys to do the same. BTW, my divorce attorney usually sides with me on these bills – she is a woman.

    I also have a network of friends, many single fathers like myself, who spread the word about the many legal pitfalls of marriage in this state to any guy we know who is about to get or who is already engaged. We’ve stopped at least five or six guys from going down that road in the past year or so.

    This may not seem like much, but what if every single guy did this in the county? Sure would make a lot of difference eventually, if only in terms of volume, but you have to start somewhere.

    And such a groundswell of change would have a lot more strength and credibility if it came from both men AND women. Otherwise, it would be very easy to dismiss as reactionary “sexism” by the feminist-leaning legal industry lobbyists.

    By stamping all women with the same label, you weaken the only movement that can initiate any change in the system, and that is a big mistake.

  • Mjaybee

    I am doing something about the situation.

    Usually when a critical bill needs calls, emails, etc. to Sacramento ( I am in California ), I call, email, etc. in support of that bill, and urge a network of about 75 single and divorced guys to do the same. BTW, my divorce attorney usually sides with me on these bills – she is a woman.

    I also have a network of friends, many single fathers like myself, who spread the word about the many legal pitfalls of marriage in this state to any guy we know who is about to get or who is already engaged. We’ve stopped at least five or six guys from going down that road in the past year or so.

    This may not seem like much, but what if every single guy did this in the county? Sure would make a lot of difference eventually, if only in terms of volume, but you have to start somewhere.

    And such a groundswell of change would have a lot more strength and credibility if it came from both men AND women. Otherwise, it would be very easy to dismiss as reactionary “sexism” by the feminist-leaning legal industry lobbyists.

    By stamping all women with the same label, you weaken the only movement that can initiate any change in the system, and that is a big mistake.

  • Mjaybee

    I am doing something about the situation.

    Usually when a critical bill needs calls, emails, etc. to Sacramento ( I am in California ), I call, email, etc. in support of that bill, and urge a network of about 75 single and divorced guys to do the same. BTW, my divorce attorney usually sides with me on these bills – she is a woman.

    I also have a network of friends, many single fathers like myself, who spread the word about the many legal pitfalls of marriage in this state to any guy we know who is about to get or who is already engaged. We’ve stopped at least five or six guys from going down that road in the past year or so.

    This may not seem like much, but what if every single guy did this in the county? Sure would make a lot of difference eventually

  • Mjaybee

    I am doing something about the situation.

    Usually when a critical bill needs calls, emails, etc. to Sacramento ( I am in California ), I call, email, etc. in support of that bill, and urge a network of about 75 single and divorced guys to do the same. BTW, my divorce attorney usually sides with me on these bills – she is a woman.

    I also have a network of friends, many single fathers like myself, who spread the word about the many legal pitfalls of marriage in this state to any guy we know who is about to get or who is already engaged. We’ve stopped at least five or six guys from going down that road in the past year or so.

    This may not seem like much, but what if every single guy did this in the county? Sure would make a lot of difference eventually

  • Mjaybee

    I am doing something about the situation.

    Usually when a critical bill needs calls, emails, etc. to Sacramento ( I am in California ), I call, email, etc. in support of that bill, and urge a network of about 75 single and divorced guys to do the same. BTW, my divorce attorney usually sides with me on these bills – she is a woman.

    I also have a network of friends, many single fathers like myself, who spread the word about the many legal pitfalls of marriage in this state to any guy we know who is about to get or who is already engaged. We’ve stopped at least five or six guys from going down that road in the past year or so.

    This may not seem like much, but what if every single guy did this in the county? Sure would make a lot of difference eventually

  • Mjaybee

    I am doing something about the situation.

    Usually when a critical bill needs calls, emails, etc. to Sacramento ( I am in California ), I call, email, etc. in support of that bill, and urge a network of about 75 single and divorced guys to do the same. BTW, my divorce attorney usually sides with me on these bills – she is a woman.

    I also have a network of friends, many single fathers like myself, who spread the word about the many legal pitfalls of marriage in this state to any guy we know who is about to get or who is already engaged. We’ve stopped at least five or six guys from going down that road in the past year or so.

    This may not seem like much, but what if every single guy did this in the county? Sure would make a lot of difference eventually

  • RScott

    Here is a copy of comment #61 from the other thread, which will scroll off soon:
    It is unfortunate to see Dierdre depart from the thread. I do see the value in the discussion, but then I’m able to see through the anger that often must be filtered to understand the concerns of the various posters. I do think people need to understand that it is not practical to want to “return” to a pre-feminist culture or legal system. It simply can’t happen anymore than we can go back in time; we must forge ahead into some form of actual equality to have any hope of recovering from the current disaster that befalls relationships between men and women.

    Dierdre sees nothing wrong with a man producing the income while the wife is a homemaker and mother. While I agree with her, the law does not. In 2001, Colorado passed a law (Senate Bill 01-158, sponsored by Democratic State Senator Pat Pascoe) that created a sliding scale of payment, from one spouse to the other, immediately upon separation of the married couple. The formula produces a 40 percent of gross pay payment from the working spouse to the non-working spouse, with the amount of the payment gradually reduced to zero in the situation where both work and have equal incomes (assuming no children). Colorado is also a unilateral divorce state, so the last opportunity anyone has to avoid this legal entanglement, and transfer of their income to another person, is the decision to marry. Indirectly, this law criminalizes marriage itself, since any decision beyond the marriage decision, such as whether to work, whether to divorce, whether to even produce a child, is a unilateral decision of one person only. If you don’t want to be subject to the state’s penalties, then don’t get “married” according to the state’s definition. This law also makes a few other things very clear: if you are married, and have children, you damn well better put them into daycare as opposed to having one of the parents care for them. No fault, unilateral divorce was bad enough without the state creating direct financial incentives for divorce. Colorado is one of those states that has made the traditional marriage a crime. While not calling it a crime directly, anytime the state or justice system creates severe penalties for an action (in this case marriage), then they are trying to reduce or eliminate the activity by treating it as a crime. What few people will admit, especially the radical statists on the Left, is that these laws are the ultimate in interference in people’s private lives and personal decisions. They rant about the state getting “into people’s bedrooms” while advocating maximum interference in people’s activities in their bedrooms! It’s all about control and eliminating individual decisions of free people.

  • RScott

    Here is a copy of comment #61 from the other thread, which will scroll off soon:
    It is unfortunate to see Dierdre depart from the thread. I do see the value in the discussion, but then I’m able to see through the anger that often must be filtered to understand the concerns of the various posters. I do think people need to understand that it is not practical to want to “return” to a pre-feminist culture or legal system. It simply can’t happen anymore than we can go back in time; we must forge ahead into some form of actual equality to have any hope of recovering from the current disaster that befalls relationships between men and women.

    Dierdre sees nothing wrong with a man producing the income while the wife is a homemaker and mother. While I agree with her, the law does not. In 2001, Colorado passed a law (Senate Bill 01-158, sponsored by Democratic State Senator Pat Pascoe) that created a sliding scale of payment, from one spouse to the other, immediately upon separation of the married couple. The formula produces a 40 percent of gross pay payment from the working spouse to the non-working spouse, with the amount of the payment gradually reduced to zero in the situation where both work and have equal incomes (assuming no children). Colorado is also a unilateral divorce state, so the last opportunity anyone has to avoid this legal entanglement, and transfer of their income to another person, is the decision to marry. Indirectly, this law criminalizes marriage itself, since any decision beyond the marriage decision, such as whether to work, whether to divorce, whether to even produce a child, is a unilateral decision of one person only. If you don’t want to be subject to the state’s penalties, then don’t get “married” according to the state’s definition. This law also makes a few other things very clear: if you are married, and have children, you damn well better put them into daycare as opposed to having one of the parents care for them. No fault, unilateral divorce was bad enough without the state creating direct financial incentives for divorce. Colorado is one of those states that has made the traditional marriage a crime. While not calling it a crime directly, anytime the state or justice system creates severe penalties for an action (in this case marriage), then they are trying to reduce or eliminate the activity by treating it as a crime. What few people will admit, especially the radical statists on the Left, is that these laws are the ultimate in interference in people’s private lives and personal decisions. They rant about the state getting “into people’s bedrooms” while advocating maximum interference in people’s activities in their bedrooms! It’s all about control and eliminating individual decisions of free people.

  • RScott

    Here is a copy of comment #61 from the other thread, which will scroll off soon:
    It is unfortunate to see Dierdre depart from the thread. I do see the value in the discussion, but then I’m able to see through the anger that often must be filtered to understand the concerns of the various posters. I do think people need to understand that it is not practical to want to “return” to a pre-feminist culture or legal system. It simply can’t happen anymore than we can go back in time; we must forge ahead into some form of actual equality to have any hope of recovering from the current disaster that befalls relationships between men and women.

    Dierdre sees nothing wrong with a man producing the income while the wife is a homemaker and mother. While I agree with her, the law does not. In 2001, Colorado passed a law (Senate Bill 01-158, sponsored by Democratic State Senator Pat Pascoe) that created a sliding scale of payment, from one spouse to the other, immediately upon separation of the married couple. The formula produces a 40 percent of gross pay payment from the working spouse to the non-working spouse, with the amount of the payment gradually reduced to zero in the situation where both work and have equal incomes (assuming no children). Colorado is also a unilateral divorce state, so the last opportunity anyone has to avoid this legal entanglement, and transfer of their income to another person, is the decision to marry. Indirectly, this law criminalizes marriage itself, since any decision beyond the marriage decision, such as whether to work, whether to divorce, whether to even produce a child, is a unilateral decision of one person only. If you don’t want to be subject to the state’s penalties, then don’t get “married” according to the state’s definition. This law also makes a few other things very clear: if you are married, and have children, you damn well better put them into daycare as opposed to having one of the parents care for them. No fault, unilateral divorce was bad enough without the state creating direct financial incentives for divorce. Colorado is one of those states that has made the traditional marriage a crime. While not calling it a crime directly, anytime the state or justice system creates severe penalties for an action (in this case marriage), then they are trying to reduce or eliminate the activity by treating it as a crime. What few people will admit, especially the radical statists on the Left, is that these laws are the ultimate in interference in people’s private lives and personal decisions. They rant about the state getting “into people’s bedrooms” while advocating maximum interference in people’s activities in their bedrooms! It’s all about control and eliminating individual decisions of free people.

  • RScott

    Here is a copy of comment #61 from the other thread, which will scroll off soon:
    It is unfortunate to see Dierdre depart from the thread. I do see the value in the discussion, but then I’m able to see through the anger that often must be filtered to understand the concerns of the various posters. I do think people need to understand that it is not practical to want to “return” to a pre-feminist culture or legal system. It simply can’t happen anymore than we can go back in time; we must forge ahead into some form of actual equality to have any hope of recovering from the current disaster that befalls relationships between men and women.

    Dierdre sees nothing wrong with a man producing the income while the wife is a homemaker and mother. While I agree with her, the law does not. In 2001, Colorado passed a law (Senate Bill 01-158, sponsored by Democratic State Senator Pat Pascoe) that created a sliding scale of payment, from one spouse to the other, immediately upon separation of the married couple. The formula produces a 40 percent of gross pay payment from the working spouse to the non-working spouse, with the amount of the payment gradually reduced to zero in the situation where both work and have equal incomes (assuming no children). Colorado is also a unilateral divorce state, so the last opportunity anyone has to avoid this legal entanglement, and transfer of their income to another person, is the decision to marry. Indirectly, this law criminalizes marriage itself, since any decision beyond the marriage decision, such as whether to work, whether to divorce, whether to even produce a child, is a unilateral decision of one person only. If you don’t want to be subject to the state’s penalties, then don’t get “married” according to the state’s definition. This law also makes a few other things very clear: if you are married, and have children, you damn well better put them into daycare as opposed to having one of the parents care for them. No fault, unilateral divorce was bad enough without the state creating direct financial incentives for divorce. Colorado is one of those states that has made the traditional marriage a crime. While not calling it a crime directly, anytime the state or justice system creates severe penalties for an action (in this case marriage), then they are trying to reduce or eliminate the activity by treating it as a crime. What few people will admit, especially the radical statists on the Left, is that these laws are the ultimate in interference in people’s private lives and personal decisions. They rant about the state getting “into people’s bedrooms” while advocating maximum interference in people’s activities in their bedrooms! It’s all about control and eliminating individual decisions of free people.

  • Denis

    One of the turning points for me was the first time I logged onto http://www.angrharry.com about six years ago. There I discovered a place where guys where expressing the same thoughts, and having the same experiences that I had. Then I came across MensNewsDaily shortly thereafter. Up until that point I thought I was alone in my observations and about my circumstances. It is far better for me to know that there a lot of guys who see what I see. Believing you are alone in your knowledge and experiences is not a good way to live these days for men. These places continually reach more and more men and the ideas presented by columnists and posters broaden the intellectual terrain that needs to happen before a political movement grows legs.

    I personally have written politicians, newspapers, and corporations that use male-bashing advertisement. I am not Ghandi but I’m doing something. How about you Mjaybee?

  • Denis

    One of the turning points for me was the first time I logged onto http://www.angrharry.com about six years ago. There I discovered a place where guys where expressing the same thoughts, and having the same experiences that I had. Then I came across MensNewsDaily shortly thereafter. Up until that point I thought I was alone in my observations and about my circumstances. It is far better for me to know that there a lot of guys who see what I see. Believing you are alone in your knowledge and experiences is not a good way to live these days for men. These places continually reach more and more men and the ideas presented by columnists and posters broaden the intellectual terrain that needs to happen before a political movement grows legs.

    I personally have written politicians, newspapers, and corporations that use male-bashing advertisement. I am not Ghandi but I’m doing something. How about you Mjaybee?

  • Denis

    One of the turning points for me was the first time I logged onto http://www.angrharry.com about six years ago. There I discovered a place where guys where expressing the same thoughts, and having the same experiences that I had. Then I came across MensNewsDaily shortly thereafter. Up until that point I thought I was alone in my observations and about my circumstances. It is far better for me to know that there a lot of guys who see what I see. Believing you are alone in your knowledge and experiences is not a good way to live these days for men. These places continually reach more and more men and the ideas presented by columnists and posters broaden the intellectual terrain that needs to happen before a political movement grows legs.

    I personally have written politicians, newspapers, and corporations that use male-bashing advertisement. I am not Ghandi but I’m doing something. How about you Mjaybee?







Right.

Man up.

Buy the book now on Amazon.com. Or listen to Ronnie tell a story at escaping-from-reality.com.

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