I re-read what you wrote but wanted something a bit more personal from you rather than just rehashing what others had written along with the original author. All of these conspiracy theories together sound a bit contradictory. I was just trying to make some sense out of the big picture. Why would the super-elite want to turn the states into a third world country with expensive pink collar laborers when South America was available all along? How were feminists useful idiots if they ruined things fo everyone? My mind, admittantly, is boggled.

I think it’s just western chivalry, top-heavy puritannnical mores, marxism, and white guilt that all combined to create the perfect nexus or storm to create this huge powerhouse belief of women’s equality that persists beyond rational thought similar to people still knocking on wood to ward off bad luck.

Men supported the pill, and indirectly, feminism because they perceived them as making women more “loose” and to bust puritanical mores. But I disagree that the pill, by itself, allowed women to pursue sexual gratification in a similar way to men. It’s now clear in hindsight that the pill is tremendously flawed: it’s a hormonal treatment with drastic side effects. It’s not totally reliable. It’s complicated to use.

Consequently, the pill was augmented with other “birth control” solutions (literally): abortion rights, welfare, child-support for bastard children and even legal abandonment. I know leftist men whose eyes glimmer with fear at the prospect of denying women any of these choices for fear that they’ll close their legs.

Now that China and India have offered corporations new markets they are leaving the West behind. The West, with all it’s entitlements, and costs of doing business, and the huge increase in regulations (and affirmative action is one example)that they themselves brought about,are disincentives for expanding in the West.

Feminism never was about equality for the corporations or the government. It was about raw power.

These multinationals are the driving force behind China’s impressive economic growth. Averaging about 8% growth per year each of the last 25 years. The Chinese economy doubles every 8-9 years. They are also providing China the resources, resulting from this economic growth,
to be a regional and one-day,global military threat to U.S. ineterests. And the U.S. government will once again be calling on American men to be their cannon fodder.

Thank you for your kind words, whraglyn.

“you state my case better than I, yet you seem to see it not so”

That’s entirely possible. I am so far from infallible that I am barely worthy of posting on this forum (and after reading the words of far better-read, more intelligent individuals such as those previously mentioned, I know my limits).

“What more basic and critical morals or ethics are there than those related to reproductive decisions and the responsibilities resulting therefrom?”

Well for starters, the birth control pill provided women with an effective means to separate sexual behavior from reproductive decisions.

Mind you, it also provided women with a form of birth control invisible to their sexual partners, providing an an alibi and means for selective reproductive rape of men.

“My friend, I wish I could write as well as this, because you are winning the day for my position.”

I suspect that you can write much better than I can. And if I am indeed actually arguing your points, that’s fine by me.

I feel no overwhelming need to sacrifice intellectual accuracy or clarity for competitive purposes on this issue.

“Can you tell me how I could have been more persuasive than to demonstrate that the Pill, between allowing women the pursuit of ‘…careers as well as sexual lives…’, and offering ‘…risk-free sex for both genders…’, successfully altered personal and public behaviors of almost every person of any age, and did so much for the worse, than any other imaginable influence?”

I would not dream of even attempting to do so.

I still submit that it was the false dream of “equality” that sold the concept of feminism to the “unwashed masses”, though, rather than the birth control pill.

“But, this is all speculation, no matter the opinions of anyone. Again, foruthwire, a real pleasure hashing some things out with you.”

Agreed, hwraglyn.

I certainly value the opinions of any intelligent individuals on this and other issues related to this and other topics, particularly those individuals’ opinions who are wiser or better-read than myself.

Could not agree with you more on the influence of the male pill being perhaps more culturally convulsive than that of the female pill these last 40-odd years.
Hope the results are a bit more positive…

Above, you state my case better than I, yet you seem to see it not so:
‘I believe that feminism was “sold” to the Great Unwashed Masses, as you put it, through appealing to Western nations’ moral and ethical values, not through the sexual liberation promised through the birth control pill.’

What more basic and critical morals or ethics are there than those related to reproductive decisions and the responsibilities resulting therefrom?

Again:
‘Mind you, I understand very well how the birth control pill provided a reliable form of birth control for women, which in turn allowed them to pursue careers as well as sexual lives simultaneously.’
Then:
‘But while the lure of the pill was easy, “risk-free” sex for both genders, it seems to me that the lure of “equality” that seemed to drive feminism forward for women and quite a few men (not to mention providing cover to those radical feminists with which to work their misandry).’

My friend, I wish I could write as well as this, because you are winning the day for my position.

Can you tell me how I could have been more persuasive than to demonstrate that the Pill, between allowing women the pursuit of ‘…careers as well as sexual lives…’, and offering ‘…risk-free sex for both genders…’, successfully altered personal and public behaviors of almost every person of any age, and did so much for the worse, than any other imaginable influence?

But, this is all speculation, no matter the opinions of anyone. Again, foruthwire, a real pleasure hashing some things out with you.

I may know a bit about the nature of feminism, but I don’t consider myself an expert on the subject, particularly their history.

I believe that feminism was “sold” to the Great Unwashed Masses, as you put it, through appealing to Western nations’ moral and ethical values, not through the sexual liberation promised through the birth control pill.

It could very well be that I’m wrong. It certainly wouldn’t be the first time….;-)

Mind you, I understand very well how the birth control pill provided a reliable form of birth control for women, which in turn allowed them to pursue careers as well as sexual lives simultaneously.

But while the lure of the pill was easy, “risk-free” sex for both genders, it seems to me that the lure of “equality” that seemed to drive feminism forward for women and quite a few men (not to mention providing cover to those radical feminists with which to work their misandry).

Again, I may well be wrong and you right, whraglyn.

Certainly there are better-read individuals such as Denis, Dave Usher and others who studied the history of feminism better than I.

You and Joyanna certainly may very well be among those individuals.

Having written all that, I am thoroughly convinced that the coming male birth control pill will provide men with an effective means of avoiding reproductive rape, with related improvements to men’s happiness and social, civil, and reproductive rights and general well-being.

And Japan’s health authorities have consistently held off the advent of the female birth control pill in that nation, yet feminism found its toehold after WWII, by means of the American-dictated postwar constitution.

The introduction of the pill was sold as sexual freedom…little did we know…’

Joyanna, the nine kinds of hell that have been unleashed on men, children, and ultimately women themselves were not packaged and sold through the promise of “free sex”, so much as the promise of “equality” (and even that end was subverted).”

Couldn’t disagree with that position more, fourthwire. Joyanna, as usual, puts her finger right on it:

The so-called ‘goal’ of feminism was ‘equality’, but the packaging in which the concept was sold to the Great Unwashed Masses was most definitely the idea of ‘equality _through_ sexual freedom’.

I clearly remember the debates about the Pill among my peers in school in the ’60s, and the carrot for us kids was not any political goal, but the idea that we could screw all day and never worry about any responsibility ensuing.

It was precisely the idea of ’sexual freedom’ as the most basic, and most personal, expression of ‘equality’ that drew those in my acquaintance to the Poison Pill of promiscuity.

Conspiracy or no, it’s a cinch the FemLibs who promoted the Pill for their political/cultural ends did so by marketing to the selfish sexual desires so common among the young of both genders.

And, based on the cultural events of the last 35 years or so, it seems to have worked so far, and to be working very well still.

In any case, this might explain why we never get any defense of the family, fatherhood in particular, from government, and instead get only “progressive” policies that continually make things worse for children and families, while the true meaning and intentions of The Constitution of the United States of America are increasingly obfuscated. Soon, if not already, as the collective will of political correctness resistance dimnishes, anybody uttering “Give me liberty or give me death”, will be branded a terrorist and forced to live in a federal gay dungeon called “prison”.

If the government hadn’t already confiscated my children and resditrubeted them to politically correct pedophiles, I’d be very concerned.

The introduction of the pill was sold as sexual freedom…little did we know…”

Joyanna, the nine kinds of hell that have been unleashed on men, children, and ultimately women themselves were not packaged and sold through the promise of “free sex”, so much as the promise of “equality” (and even that end was subverted).

The introduction of the pill was sold as sexual freedom…little did we know…

This should be archived as a “must see” page for all MND viewers…bravo everyone!