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Federal Court Rules Protecting America is Unconstitutional

2006-08-17
By

The ACLU has convinced a federal judge that monitoring overseas communications of terrorists is against the constitution. Despite the fact the preamble lists defending the nation as an acceptable federal government function, the ACLU and US District Judge Anna Diggs Taylor said that the risk “innocent” communications could be intercepted far outweighed the risk of Al Qaeda attacking the United States. Despite programs such as ECHELON, CARNIVORE, and others that existed happily (albeit controversially) under the Clinton Administration, the possibility that George Bush might actually defend the country is a threat the Constitution cannot bear.

Despite the evidence, the media still calls the case a matter of “warrantless wiretapping” despite the fact that the clear intention is to monitor international calls. This ongoing deception is an attempt to create hysteria that the US is becoming a “police state” and that the treats are from Republicans, not terrorists. This is the same political quarter that brings you the idea (despite all evidence to the contrary) that George Bush and not Al Qaeda is behind 9/11.

The judge in this case, an appointee of Jimmy Carter, doesn’t seem to understand the difference between overseas surveillance and domestic surveillance. Will the CIA start needing warrant the next time the spy on a terrorist overseas?

According to the ruling:

The President of the United States, a creature of the same Constitution which gave us these Amendments, has undisputedly violated the Fourth in failing to procure judicial orders as required by FISA, and accordingly has violated the First Amendment Rights of these Plaintiffs as well.

Let’s skip past the FISA court idea, one that is still in dispute publicly and in the courts (other district courts either ruled for the government or declined to rule at all) and discuss the First Amendment issue. Debating what due process should exist for wiretapping is something that can and will take place, however, the idea that plotting terror attacks against the citizens of the United States of America could even possible be protected by the First Amendment should make everyone who cares about the safety of their family cringe. What other possible meaning is there to that phrase?

Many scoffed at the idea of framing resistance to the Patriot Act and the “warrantless wiretapping” programs as an attempt to establish an “Al Qaeda Bill of Rights”, however, with Judge Taylor’s ruling and the help of the ACLU, the shroud of the First Amendment has been extended to protect those who plot to kill Americans.

John Bambenek is an academic professional for the University of Illinois and a columnist for the Daily Illini and blogs at Part-Time Pundit deep from the corn fields of Illinois. . He is the current owner of BlogSoldiers, a blog-only traffic exchange.

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  • The Great Society

    I have heard liberals and conservatives both complain about the decision. I consider myself quite liberal–I find a huge fault with it. So really, I tried to explain why I don’t view this as a conservative issue. The defense of liberty should not be a purely liberal value, should it? I am certain I know at least a few conservatives who value their personal liberty–who value living free of illegal wiretaps and warrantless property seizures.

    I think anyone who so callously disregards the freedoms guaranteed them by our constitution ought to reconsider their own worthiness of presenting themselves before the ballot box. While I oppose poll taxes and requirements that voters be white male property owners, maybe voters should be required to pass a “bill of rights” test. If a potential voter cannot decide whether illegal wiretaps violate the constitution, maybe he or she should forego his or her right to vote.

  • The Great Society

    I have heard liberals and conservatives both complain about the decision. I consider myself quite liberal–I find a huge fault with it. So really, I tried to explain why I don’t view this as a conservative issue. The defense of liberty should not be a purely liberal value, should it? I am certain I know at least a few conservatives who value their personal liberty–who value living free of illegal wiretaps and warrantless property seizures.

    I think anyone who so callously disregards the freedoms guaranteed them by our constitution ought to reconsider their own worthiness of presenting themselves before the ballot box. While I oppose poll taxes and requirements that voters be white male property owners, maybe voters should be required to pass a “bill of rights” test. If a potential voter cannot decide whether illegal wiretaps violate the constitution, maybe he or she should forego his or her right to vote.

  • The Great Society

    I have heard liberals and conservatives both complain about the decision. I consider myself quite liberal–I find a huge fault with it. So really, I tried to explain why I don’t view this as a conservative issue. The defense of liberty should not be a purely liberal value, should it? I am certain I know at least a few conservatives who value their personal liberty–who value living free of illegal wiretaps and warrantless property seizures.

    I think anyone who so callously disregards the freedoms guaranteed them by our constitution ought to reconsider their own worthiness of presenting themselves before the ballot box. While I oppose poll taxes and requirements that voters be white male property owners, maybe voters should be required to pass a “bill of rights” test. If a potential voter cannot decide whether illegal wiretaps violate the constitution, maybe he or she should forego his or her right to vote.

  • The Great Society

    I have heard liberals and conservatives both complain about the decision. I consider myself quite liberal–I find a huge fault with it. So really, I tried to explain why I don’t view this as a conservative issue. The defense of liberty should not be a purely liberal value, should it? I am certain I know at least a few conservatives who value their personal liberty–who value living free of illegal wiretaps and warrantless property seizures.

    I think anyone who so callously disregards the freedoms guaranteed them by our constitution ought to reconsider their own worthiness of presenting themselves before the ballot box. While I oppose poll taxes and requirements that voters be white male property owners, maybe voters should be required to pass a “bill of rights” test. If a potential voter cannot decide whether illegal wiretaps violate the constitution, maybe he or she should forego his or her right to vote.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Nice try… Kennedy and Souter are liberals, despite who appointed them. This is a known quantity… your attempt to paint this as a conservative decision is empirically false, and your attempt to continue in this after being shown the facts demonstrates that you are a liar and unworthy of the right to vote.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Nice try… Kennedy and Souter are liberals, despite who appointed them. This is a known quantity… your attempt to paint this as a conservative decision is empirically false, and your attempt to continue in this after being shown the facts demonstrates that you are a liar and unworthy of the right to vote.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Nice try… Kennedy and Souter are liberals, despite who appointed them. This is a known quantity… your attempt to paint this as a conservative decision is empirically false, and your attempt to continue in this after being shown the facts demonstrates that you are a liar and unworthy of the right to vote.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Nice try… Kennedy and Souter are liberals, despite who appointed them. This is a known quantity… your attempt to paint this as a conservative decision is empirically false, and your attempt to continue in this after being shown the facts demonstrates that you are a liar and unworthy of the right to vote.

  • The Great Society

    Kennedy was nominated by Reagan. Souter by Bush. I have heard many conservatives whine about O’Conner and Rehnquist being liberal activists. Of course, Scalia and Thomas are conservative activists, but judicial activism isn’t a problem when the cause is (extreme) right, is it?

    Souter, Ginsburg and Breyer blew it. I’d rather not see the defense of liberty become a partisan issue. What I would really like to see is conservatives be just the staunch defenders of liberty as any liberal.

    I trust you found no fault at all with O’Conner’s liberalism in terms of her decision on Kelo.

  • The Great Society

    Kennedy was nominated by Reagan. Souter by Bush. I have heard many conservatives whine about O’Conner and Rehnquist being liberal activists. Of course, Scalia and Thomas are conservative activists, but judicial activism isn’t a problem when the cause is (extreme) right, is it?

    Souter, Ginsburg and Breyer blew it. I’d rather not see the defense of liberty become a partisan issue. What I would really like to see is conservatives be just the staunch defenders of liberty as any liberal.

    I trust you found no fault at all with O’Conner’s liberalism in terms of her decision on Kelo.

  • The Great Society

    Kennedy was nominated by Reagan. Souter by Bush. I have heard many conservatives whine about O’Conner and Rehnquist being liberal activists. Of course, Scalia and Thomas are conservative activists, but judicial activism isn’t a problem when the cause is (extreme) right, is it?

    Souter, Ginsburg and Breyer blew it. I’d rather not see the defense of liberty become a partisan issue. What I would really like to see is conservatives be just the staunch defenders of liberty as any liberal.

    I trust you found no fault at all with O’Conner’s liberalism in terms of her decision on Kelo.

  • The Great Society

    Kennedy was nominated by Reagan. Souter by Bush. I have heard many conservatives whine about O’Conner and Rehnquist being liberal activists. Of course, Scalia and Thomas are conservative activists, but judicial activism isn’t a problem when the cause is (extreme) right, is it?

    Souter, Ginsburg and Breyer blew it. I’d rather not see the defense of liberty become a partisan issue. What I would really like to see is conservatives be just the staunch defenders of liberty as any liberal.

    I trust you found no fault at all with O’Conner’s liberalism in terms of her decision on Kelo.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    From The Kelo Decision:

    STEVENS, J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which KENNEDY, SOUTER, GINSBURG, and BREYER, JJ., joined. KENNEDY, J., filed a concurring
    opinion. O’CONNOR, J., filed a dissenting opinion, in which REHNQUIST, C. J., and SCALIA and THOMAS, JJ., joined. THOMAS, J., filed a dissenting opinion.

    Exactly when did Stevens, Kennedy, Souter, Ginsburg, and Breyer become conservative?

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    From The Kelo Decision:

    STEVENS, J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which KENNEDY, SOUTER, GINSBURG, and BREYER, JJ., joined. KENNEDY, J., filed a concurring
    opinion. O’CONNOR, J., filed a dissenting opinion, in which REHNQUIST, C. J., and SCALIA and THOMAS, JJ., joined. THOMAS, J., filed a dissenting opinion.

    Exactly when did Stevens, Kennedy, Souter, Ginsburg, and Breyer become conservative?

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    From The Kelo Decision:

    STEVENS, J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which KENNEDY, SOUTER, GINSBURG, and BREYER, JJ., joined. KENNEDY, J., filed a concurring
    opinion. O’CONNOR, J., filed a dissenting opinion, in which REHNQUIST, C. J., and SCALIA and THOMAS, JJ., joined. THOMAS, J., filed a dissenting opinion.

    Exactly when did Stevens, Kennedy, Souter, Ginsburg, and Breyer become conservative?

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    From The Kelo Decision:

    STEVENS, J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which KENNEDY, SOUTER, GINSBURG, and BREYER, JJ., joined. KENNEDY, J., filed a concurring
    opinion. O’CONNOR, J., filed a dissenting opinion, in which REHNQUIST, C. J., and SCALIA and THOMAS, JJ., joined. THOMAS, J., filed a dissenting opinion.

    Exactly when did Stevens, Kennedy, Souter, Ginsburg, and Breyer become conservative?

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Kelo is “conservatively” motivated?

    How do you explain the liberal wing of the court voting for it with Scalia/Thomas/et al voting against?

    Get your facts right.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Kelo is “conservatively” motivated?

    How do you explain the liberal wing of the court voting for it with Scalia/Thomas/et al voting against?

    Get your facts right.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Kelo is “conservatively” motivated?

    How do you explain the liberal wing of the court voting for it with Scalia/Thomas/et al voting against?

    Get your facts right.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Kelo is “conservatively” motivated?

    How do you explain the liberal wing of the court voting for it with Scalia/Thomas/et al voting against?

    Get your facts right.

  • The Great Society

    Hal, I’m probably quite a bit older than you, sonny.

    Kelo is just another conservatively motivated erosion of civil liberty, along with the war on drugs, the war on terror, the war on Iraq, and the war against Oceania.

    I realize you don’t believe you ever had any right to privacy. Nevertheless, eavesdropping without a warrant is an invasion prohibited by our constitution. The ruling demonstrated that, and so long as it does not reach the supreme court it will be upheld.

    How effective has the program been? So far no terrorists have been apprenhended or charged with any crime based on illegally obtained wiretap evidence. Granted, it is possible some subjects have suffered extreme rendition to US run foreign gulags, where they have been tortured. We’ll probably never know, given the closed secrecy with which this administration has chosen to operate.

    Finally, yeah. Protecting the constitution–the sole purpose of the ACLU–will surely destroy america.

  • The Great Society

    Hal, I’m probably quite a bit older than you, sonny.

    Kelo is just another conservatively motivated erosion of civil liberty, along with the war on drugs, the war on terror, the war on Iraq, and the war against Oceania.

    I realize you don’t believe you ever had any right to privacy. Nevertheless, eavesdropping without a warrant is an invasion prohibited by our constitution. The ruling demonstrated that, and so long as it does not reach the supreme court it will be upheld.

    How effective has the program been? So far no terrorists have been apprenhended or charged with any crime based on illegally obtained wiretap evidence. Granted, it is possible some subjects have suffered extreme rendition to US run foreign gulags, where they have been tortured. We’ll probably never know, given the closed secrecy with which this administration has chosen to operate.

    Finally, yeah. Protecting the constitution–the sole purpose of the ACLU–will surely destroy america.

  • The Great Society

    Hal, I’m probably quite a bit older than you, sonny.

    Kelo is just another conservatively motivated erosion of civil liberty, along with the war on drugs, the war on terror, the war on Iraq, and the war against Oceania.

    I realize you don’t believe you ever had any right to privacy. Nevertheless, eavesdropping without a warrant is an invasion prohibited by our constitution. The ruling demonstrated that, and so long as it does not reach the supreme court it will be upheld.

    How effective has the program been? So far no terrorists have been apprenhended or charged with any crime based on illegally obtained wiretap evidence. Granted, it is possible some subjects have suffered extreme rendition to US run foreign gulags, where they have been tortured. We’ll probably never know, given the closed secrecy with which this administration has chosen to operate.

    Finally, yeah. Protecting the constitution–the sole purpose of the ACLU–will surely destroy america.

  • Hal

    Oh, and as for Kelo, exactly when did the ACLU get involved? And how does that involve anything in the war on terrorism?

    The fact is, the ACLU has a goal of destroying the United States. It always has, and always will. Just because one out of one thousand cases is justified doesn’t matter. Bleeding to death by a thousand little pricks is just as deadly as a bullet, only slower, and more painful.

    As for Kelo, it will be reversed. It’s already been nullified in many states.

  • Hal

    Oh, and as for Kelo, exactly when did the ACLU get involved? And how does that involve anything in the war on terrorism?

    The fact is, the ACLU has a goal of destroying the United States. It always has, and always will. Just because one out of one thousand cases is justified doesn’t matter. Bleeding to death by a thousand little pricks is just as deadly as a bullet, only slower, and more painful.

    As for Kelo, it will be reversed. It’s already been nullified in many states.

  • Hal

    Oh, and as for Kelo, exactly when did the ACLU get involved? And how does that involve anything in the war on terrorism?

    The fact is, the ACLU has a goal of destroying the United States. It always has, and always will. Just because one out of one thousand cases is justified doesn’t matter. Bleeding to death by a thousand little pricks is just as deadly as a bullet, only slower, and more painful.

    As for Kelo, it will be reversed. It’s already been nullified in many states.

  • Hal

    Who among us hasn’t had a misguided, misspent youth?

    Shouldn’t you wait till you are past your “misguided, misspent youth” to speak of it? Or at least have finished your freshman year?

    Seriously, I’m still waiting for someone to show me one instance of someone’s rights being violated. Theoretical violations don’t count.

  • Hal

    Who among us hasn’t had a misguided, misspent youth?

    Shouldn’t you wait till you are past your “misguided, misspent youth” to speak of it? Or at least have finished your freshman year?

    Seriously, I’m still waiting for someone to show me one instance of someone’s rights being violated. Theoretical violations don’t count.

  • Hal

    Who among us hasn’t had a misguided, misspent youth?

    Shouldn’t you wait till you are past your “misguided, misspent youth” to speak of it? Or at least have finished your freshman year?

    Seriously, I’m still waiting for someone to show me one instance of someone’s rights being violated. Theoretical violations don’t count.

  • The Great Society

    So who cares about the ACLU? Oh, right–they brought the case. Well, good for them.

    Roger Baldwin started out as a communist, but later came to his senses. It is a matter of public record he sought to oust the communists from the ACLU, back in the 1940s, long before McCarthyism.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Nash_Baldwin

    Who among us hasn’t had a misguided, misspent youth? The primary goals of the of the ACLU have always remained the protection of civil liberties and the defense of the bill of rights.

    I will be the first to say the ACLU has often been wrong about the 2nd amendment. It deserves just as much protection as the other nine. I wish they defended it with nearly as much zeal as does the NRA.

    Shredding the Bill of Rights isn’t communism, it’s nazism. And I’ll nazi standi for it. The federal court has ruled in favor of the bill of rights. I’d like to hear an amen for that!

    Now I fear the SCOTUS will reverse. We’ll just have to see if they rule as wisely here as they did in Kelo vs. New London, where they abolished private property rights. Seems to me that is another issue of liberty lost.

  • The Great Society

    So who cares about the ACLU? Oh, right–they brought the case. Well, good for them.

    Roger Baldwin started out as a communist, but later came to his senses. It is a matter of public record he sought to oust the communists from the ACLU, back in the 1940s, long before McCarthyism.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Nash_Baldwin

    Who among us hasn’t had a misguided, misspent youth? The primary goals of the of the ACLU have always remained the protection of civil liberties and the defense of the bill of rights.

    I will be the first to say the ACLU has often been wrong about the 2nd amendment. It deserves just as much protection as the other nine. I wish they defended it with nearly as much zeal as does the NRA.

    Shredding the Bill of Rights isn’t communism, it’s nazism. And I’ll nazi standi for it. The federal court has ruled in favor of the bill of rights. I’d like to hear an amen for that!

    Now I fear the SCOTUS will reverse. We’ll just have to see if they rule as wisely here as they did in Kelo vs. New London, where they abolished private property rights. Seems to me that is another issue of liberty lost.

  • The Great Society

    So who cares about the ACLU? Oh, right–they brought the case. Well, good for them.

    Roger Baldwin started out as a communist, but later came to his senses. It is a matter of public record he sought to oust the communists from the ACLU, back in the 1940s, long before McCarthyism.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Nash_Baldwin

    Who among us hasn’t had a misguided, misspent youth? The primary goals of the of the ACLU have always remained the protection of civil liberties and the defense of the bill of rights.

    I will be the first to say the ACLU has often been wrong about the 2nd amendment. It deserves just as much protection as the other nine. I wish they defended it with nearly as much zeal as does the NRA.

    Shredding the Bill of Rights isn’t communism, it’s nazism. And I’ll nazi standi for it. The federal court has ruled in favor of the bill of rights. I’d like to hear an amen for that!

    Now I fear the SCOTUS will reverse. We’ll just have to see if they rule as wisely here as they did in Kelo vs. New London, where they abolished private property rights. Seems to me that is another issue of liberty lost.

  • hereandthere

    The goals of the ACLU were clear from the group’s founding, as indicated by the writings of its founder, Roger Baldwin: “I am for socialism, disarmament, and ultimately for abolishing the state itself as an instrument of violence and compulsion. I seek social ownership of property, the abolition of the propertied class… Communism is the goal.”

    Facts are Facts Great Society (oxymoron there after the trillions spent to “wipe out poverty” Thanks LBJ!)

  • hereandthere

    The goals of the ACLU were clear from the group’s founding, as indicated by the writings of its founder, Roger Baldwin: “I am for socialism, disarmament, and ultimately for abolishing the state itself as an instrument of violence and compulsion. I seek social ownership of property, the abolition of the propertied class… Communism is the goal.”

    Facts are Facts Great Society (oxymoron there after the trillions spent to “wipe out poverty” Thanks LBJ!)

  • hereandthere

    The goals of the ACLU were clear from the group’s founding, as indicated by the writings of its founder, Roger Baldwin: “I am for socialism, disarmament, and ultimately for abolishing the state itself as an instrument of violence and compulsion. I seek social ownership of property, the abolition of the propertied class… Communism is the goal.”

    Facts are Facts Great Society (oxymoron there after the trillions spent to “wipe out poverty” Thanks LBJ!)

  • The Great Society

    Whraglyn–are we so weak Islamic theocrats are likely to take over? Hey, last time I looked it was Pat Robertson issuing fatwahs against foreign heads of state. Maybe we won’t be under sharia, but we’re fast working on our own christian taliban.

    I have no problem with GW Bush using legitimate means to protect the US. Illegal wiretapping, domestic spying, domestic surveillance, holding political prisoners, extreme rendition, torture, violating the Geneva Convention, unilaterally rescinding international treaties–stop me when I mention something that strikes you as illegitimate…

    I’m am quite confident the FISA court was very surprised to learn they were superfluous and unnecessary. Oh, much to bothersome to apply for warrants ex post facto. We need greater leniency in enforcing the law.

    “We are a nation of laws, and we must enforce our laws.” May 15, 2006

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/05/20060515-8.html

    Well, hey. What about signing statements exempting the executive branch from any law dutifully passed by the legislature? See, the laws against torture were opaque, and murky, and incomprehensible to our chief executive. So when congress clarified that torture is really, really illegal, the president signs the bill with disappearing ink, heh heh heh.

    Pskurnick, have you ever heard of the golden rule? Do unto others before they do unto you? Or wait–maybe that is just the new revised american version. I’m sure we could find a penumbra of some presidential signing statement that covers that.

    When I am travelling abroad, I kinda hope and pray the canadians don’t whisk me off the street and extraordinarily rendite me incommunicado to some american gulag in egypt where I’m tortured into making bogus confessions. My God, man! How did police operate back in the bad old days of the 1960s when they had to obtain court warrants to conduct searches?

    You want an expansion of police power where there really isn’t any cause for it. All our wire tapping and torture hasn’t gained us any international good will or useful information. We are creating enemies faster than we can napalm and fletchette them.

    What about 9/11? Well, lots of information was provided various branches. Five years have elapsed since then, and despite burgeoning federal bureaucracy we aren’t any closer to interbranch communication now than we were then. That is where the problem is, all my good friends here. Our government has grown ever more secretive and authoritarian, and weaker at competently dealing with natural disaster, foreign policy, and failing occupation.

    If you haven’t noticed, you cannot protect rights by trampling on them. You cannot protect freedom by destroying it. How would that work in medicine? The doctor comes in and tells you, “I had to cut your wife’s heart out to save her.” If our bill of rights is bad, I’d like to see it repaired or replaced with something better. I don’t see simply tossing it into the toilet as any kind of solution.

    I’m not arguing we should be complacent. By maintaining vigilance we can catch criminals, even terrorist criminals, the good old fashioned american way–the way God intended they be caught. And NOT through double plus secret illegal snooping. FISA warrants are often issued after the fact. If Bush thought this law was too restrictive, he should have sought to have it yet further modified, not simply circumvented it, placing himself above the law.

  • The Great Society

    Whraglyn–are we so weak Islamic theocrats are likely to take over? Hey, last time I looked it was Pat Robertson issuing fatwahs against foreign heads of state. Maybe we won’t be under sharia, but we’re fast working on our own christian taliban.

    I have no problem with GW Bush using legitimate means to protect the US. Illegal wiretapping, domestic spying, domestic surveillance, holding political prisoners, extreme rendition, torture, violating the Geneva Convention, unilaterally rescinding international treaties–stop me when I mention something that strikes you as illegitimate…

    I’m am quite confident the FISA court was very surprised to learn they were superfluous and unnecessary. Oh, much to bothersome to apply for warrants ex post facto. We need greater leniency in enforcing the law.

    “We are a nation of laws, and we must enforce our laws.” May 15, 2006

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/05/20060515-8.html

    Well, hey. What about signing statements exempting the executive branch from any law dutifully passed by the legislature? See, the laws against torture were opaque, and murky, and incomprehensible to our chief executive. So when congress clarified that torture is really, really illegal, the president signs the bill with disappearing ink, heh heh heh.

    Pskurnick, have you ever heard of the golden rule? Do unto others before they do unto you? Or wait–maybe that is just the new revised american version. I’m sure we could find a penumbra of some presidential signing statement that covers that.

    When I am travelling abroad, I kinda hope and pray the canadians don’t whisk me off the street and extraordinarily rendite me incommunicado to some american gulag in egypt where I’m tortured into making bogus confessions. My God, man! How did police operate back in the bad old days of the 1960s when they had to obtain court warrants to conduct searches?

    You want an expansion of police power where there really isn’t any cause for it. All our wire tapping and torture hasn’t gained us any international good will or useful information. We are creating enemies faster than we can napalm and fletchette them.

    What about 9/11? Well, lots of information was provided various branches. Five years have elapsed since then, and despite burgeoning federal bureaucracy we aren’t any closer to interbranch communication now than we were then. That is where the problem is, all my good friends here. Our government has grown ever more secretive and authoritarian, and weaker at competently dealing with natural disaster, foreign policy, and failing occupation.

    If you haven’t noticed, you cannot protect rights by trampling on them. You cannot protect freedom by destroying it. How would that work in medicine? The doctor comes in and tells you, “I had to cut your wife’s heart out to save her.” If our bill of rights is bad, I’d like to see it repaired or replaced with something better. I don’t see simply tossing it into the toilet as any kind of solution.

    I’m not arguing we should be complacent. By maintaining vigilance we can catch criminals, even terrorist criminals, the good old fashioned american way–the way God intended they be caught. And NOT through double plus secret illegal snooping. FISA warrants are often issued after the fact. If Bush thought this law was too restrictive, he should have sought to have it yet further modified, not simply circumvented it, placing himself above the law.

  • The Great Society

    Whraglyn–are we so weak Islamic theocrats are likely to take over? Hey, last time I looked it was Pat Robertson issuing fatwahs against foreign heads of state. Maybe we won’t be under sharia, but we’re fast working on our own christian taliban.

    I have no problem with GW Bush using legitimate means to protect the US. Illegal wiretapping, domestic spying, domestic surveillance, holding political prisoners, extreme rendition, torture, violating the Geneva Convention, unilaterally rescinding international treaties–stop me when I mention something that strikes you as illegitimate…

    I’m am quite confident the FISA court was very surprised to learn they were superfluous and unnecessary. Oh, much to bothersome to apply for warrants ex post facto. We need greater leniency in enforcing the law.

    “We are a nation of laws, and we must enforce our laws.” May 15, 2006

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/05/20060515-8.html

    Well, hey. What about signing statements exempting the executive branch from any law dutifully passed by the legislature? See, the laws against torture were opaque, and murky, and incomprehensible to our chief executive. So when congress clarified that torture is really, really illegal, the president signs the bill with disappearing ink, heh heh heh.

    Pskurnick, have you ever heard of the golden rule? Do unto others before they do unto you? Or wait–maybe that is just the new revised american version. I’m sure we could find a penumbra of some presidential signing statement that covers that.

    When I am travelling abroad, I kinda hope and pray the canadians don’t whisk me off the street and extraordinarily rendite me incommunicado to some american gulag in egypt where I’m tortured into making bogus confessions. My God, man! How did police operate back in the bad old days of the 1960s when they had to obtain court warrants to conduct searches?

    You want an expansion of police power where there really isn’t any cause for it. All our wire tapping and torture hasn’t gained us any international good will or useful information. We are creating enemies faster than we can napalm and fletchette them.

    What about 9/11? Well, lots of information was provided various branches. Five years have elapsed since then, and despite burgeoning federal bureaucracy we aren’t any closer to interbranch communication now than we were then. That is where the problem is, all my good friends here. Our government has grown ever more secretive and authoritarian, and weaker at competently dealing with natural disaster, foreign policy, and failing occupation.

    If you haven’t noticed, you cannot protect rights by trampling on them. You cannot protect freedom by destroying it. How would that work in medicine? The doctor comes in and tells you, “I had to cut your wife’s heart out to save her.” If our bill of rights is bad, I’d like to see it repaired or replaced with something better. I don’t see simply tossing it into the toilet as any kind of solution.

    I’m not arguing we should be complacent. By maintaining vigilance we can catch criminals, even terrorist criminals, the good old fashioned american way–the way God intended they be caught. And NOT through double plus secret illegal snooping. FISA warrants are often issued after the fact. If Bush thought this law was too restrictive, he should have sought to have it yet further modified, not simply circumvented it, placing himself above the law.

  • pskurnick

    Great Society,
    Doesn’t it seem downright stupid to worry about the rights of non-citizens? We declared these rights FOR OURSELVES and NOT for the rest of the world. As a member of the world society we are fast becoming Lemmings to cliff of Liberalism. We must protect OUR rights to be sure. But If I have to tread on the rights of NON Citizens to Protect AMERICANS then so be it.
    I marvel at the weight and import you give the rights to killers and terrorist and how off- handed you treat the safety and well being of citizens of one of the fairest countries in the history of the world.
    If one wants the protects of the bill of right all you have to do is legally migrate to this country and abide by it’s laws. Live in France and plot to blow me up? Too bad Ahmed, I’ll be tapping your Phone and de-crypting your E-mails!

  • whraglyn

    Sure thing, TGS; and the bill of rights will be really meaningful under sharia, right?

    The use by GW Bush of legitimate means to protect the US is far less deleterious, of those rights and liberties won by our fathers, than are the activities of those who believe that Lyndon Baines Johnson was on the right track with The Great Society.

  • pskurnick

    Great Society,
    Doesn’t it seem downright stupid to worry about the rights of non-citizens? We declared these rights FOR OURSELVES and NOT for the rest of the world. As a member of the world society we are fast becoming Lemmings to cliff of Liberalism. We must protect OUR rights to be sure. But If I have to tread on the rights of NON Citizens to Protect AMERICANS then so be it.
    I marvel at the weight and import you give the rights to killers and terrorist and how off- handed you treat the safety and well being of citizens of one of the fairest countries in the history of the world.
    If one wants the protects of the bill of right all you have to do is legally migrate to this country and abide by it’s laws. Live in France and plot to blow me up? Too bad Ahmed, I’ll be tapping your Phone and de-crypting your E-mails!

  • whraglyn

    Sure thing, TGS; and the bill of rights will be really meaningful under sharia, right?

    The use by GW Bush of legitimate means to protect the US is far less deleterious, of those rights and liberties won by our fathers, than are the activities of those who believe that Lyndon Baines Johnson was on the right track with The Great Society.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Give me a break… save your panting hysterics for your local MoveOn meeting.

    No one has shredded the Bill of Rights.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Give me a break… save your panting hysterics for your local MoveOn meeting.

    No one has shredded the Bill of Rights.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Give me a break… save your panting hysterics for your local MoveOn meeting.

    No one has shredded the Bill of Rights.

  • The Great Society

    America was founded upon the principle of individual liberty. Our chief protections are against the abuse of power of the state. King George’s men would seize and search citizens without proper warrants or authorization.

    So we are not “protecting” america by ripping up the bill of rights and using it for toilet paper. That is more properly called “destroying” america. When the bill of rights becomes no more valuable than bathroom tissue, what america was will be no more, and in its place a fascist state where the citizens are not free to question the abuses of their leaders, and where elections will be nothing more than soviet style shams, laying on a veneer of legitimacy.

  • The Great Society

    America was founded upon the principle of individual liberty. Our chief protections are against the abuse of power of the state. King George’s men would seize and search citizens without proper warrants or authorization.

    So we are not “protecting” america by ripping up the bill of rights and using it for toilet paper. That is more properly called “destroying” america. When the bill of rights becomes no more valuable than bathroom tissue, what america was will be no more, and in its place a fascist state where the citizens are not free to question the abuses of their leaders, and where elections will be nothing more than soviet style shams, laying on a veneer of legitimacy.

  • The Great Society

    America was founded upon the principle of individual liberty. Our chief protections are against the abuse of power of the state. King George’s men would seize and search citizens without proper warrants or authorization.

    So we are not “protecting” america by ripping up the bill of rights and using it for toilet paper. That is more properly called “destroying” america. When the bill of rights becomes no more valuable than bathroom tissue, what america was will be no more, and in its place a fascist state where the citizens are not free to question the abuses of their leaders, and where elections will be nothing more than soviet style shams, laying on a veneer of legitimacy.







Right.

Man up.

Buy the book now on Amazon.com. Or listen to Ronnie tell a story at escaping-from-reality.com.

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