Men’s Movement Unity

2006-10-05
By

THE PROBLEM Let’s face it, the men’s/fathers’ “movement” hasn’t moved in over 30 years. Part of the reason is fierce opposition from entrenched government officials (judges, legislators, etc.) money-grubbing lawyers, feminists, SNAGS (sensitive, new age guys) and assorted other factions.

But a more damaging cause of our failure to achieve justice springs from within. As Pogo famously said, “We have met the enemy, and he is us.” I submit that intra-movement factionalism, egotistic ambitions and the naiveté of newcomers are the root causes of our failure. These suicidal phenomena have impeded progress almost from the beginning.

FACTIONALISM: There are so many so-called organizations I can’t begin to keep track of them or their acronyms. Some are one-man endeavors consisting of a pajama-clad zealot with a bedroom computer. Others are nation-wide operations with talented and numerous followers. Nearly all are parochial and militantly independent. They have been compared to a circular firing squad.

EGOTISM: Every barnyard rooster is king on his own dung heap. Many movement “leaders” aspire to be the proverbial big frog in a small (hopefully big) pond. Taking a clue from Lucifer in Milton’s Paradise Lost, the motivating principle of some seems to be “Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.”

NEWCOMER NAIVETE: The anti-male phenomenon and its oppositional gestalt are so massive and intricate, ranging from the obvious to the subtle, that would-be reformers, however brilliant they may be or imagine themselves to be, cannot possibly fathom the problems and solutions with limited experience.

A SOLUTION Permit me, from a perspective of over 40 years in these trenches, to posit a solution. There is enough talent and manpower dispersed throughout the men’s/fathers’ movement, internationally, to successfully confront the enemies of justice if that talent and manpower were properly coordinated. Such a force would be overwhelming. Of course, a juggernaught like this is more easily conceived than constructed. In theory, if the aforesaid internal problems could be overcome, the best and most efficient construct would consist of a unified organization with democratically-elected leaders chosen from the most capable. But practically, in view of situational reality, the most we can probably hope for at present is a greater degree of cooperation among major existing groups. Requisite to any form of cooperation or unity are a common philosophy and means of communication. The common philosophy must be broad enough to include all reasonable approaches and narrow enough to exclude those approaches that are actually harmful to that philosophy. I have long suggested a philosophy meeting that criteria: “To preserve the traditional nuclear family through restoration of equal dignity and equal (not identical) rights under the law for all male persons across a broad spectrum of life, including divorce, employment, health and crime punishment.” Anything essentially similar to this will do. I ask leaders of the major men’s/fathers’ organizations to respond to me with comments, pro and con.

It is my intention to list on this blog the organizations prepared to sign on to a unity/cooperation effort. In addition to identifying the cooperative among us, this list will be informative for non-affiliated persons wishing to join organizations oriented toward achieving justice and who desire to avoid ego-driven groups.

62 views

  • Denis

    I think a unified organization is possible at this time. What is needed is a top management made up of only a few people with scholarly credentials and detailed knowledge of the issues.(Stephen Baskerville for one comes to mind). There would be a very detailed Men’s Manifesto of what the organization is for and against. This Manifesto would be put on Men’s Rights website and allow for feedback from men everywhere. The top management would have a President, Vice President of Strategy, Vice President of Marketing & Chapter Development, Vice President of Legal Affairs. On a regular schedule, say quarterly, a Newsletter would be published outlining on-going activities, and on-going results. Men everywhere could become a member and pay annual dues. The Men’s Movement needs the funding to establish an effective group. There are many very wealthy men who have been burned by the system. An effort is needed to establish communication with a number of very wealthy men who are willing to make venture capital contributions, perhaps annonymously, to get the organization started. A Business Plan would be drafted prior to soliciting wealthy donars/investors. This would pay for salaries of the top people, an aggressive advertising effort all across the country that would include ads, televison and radio appearances. There are already many magazines, talk shows, and cable shows in place that would be open to a men’s right activist. This was not true 10-15 years ago. Once an effective marketing campaign was launched, say over 1-2 years, to attract members and contributions, then a campaign would be launched to get law firms involved in making legal challenges all across the country. These too would generate publicity.

    The organisation needs to be run like a business where the top management has defined roles and is privy to all aspects of the organization. Other people would be hired to accomplish specific tasks and could be fired. They would be hired as contractors and not “permanent employees” so that people can be removed if necessary with minimal legal exposure to the organization.

    Most people are sheeple. Once the organization makes observable progress other men on the sidelines will become dues paying members.

  • Denis

    I think a unified organization is possible at this time. What is needed is a top management made up of only a few people with scholarly credentials and detailed knowledge of the issues.(Stephen Baskerville for one comes to mind). There would be a very detailed Men’s Manifesto of what the organization is for and against. This Manifesto would be put on Men’s Rights website and allow for feedback from men everywhere. The top management would have a President, Vice President of Strategy, Vice President of Marketing & Chapter Development, Vice President of Legal Affairs. On a regular schedule, say quarterly, a Newsletter would be published outlining on-going activities, and on-going results. Men everywhere could become a member and pay annual dues. The Men’s Movement needs the funding to establish an effective group. There are many very wealthy men who have been burned by the system. An effort is needed to establish communication with a number of very wealthy men who are willing to make venture capital contributions, perhaps annonymously, to get the organization started. A Business Plan would be drafted prior to soliciting wealthy donars/investors. This would pay for salaries of the top people, an aggressive advertising effort all across the country that would include ads, televison and radio appearances. There are already many magazines, talk shows, and cable shows in place that would be open to a men’s right activist. This was not true 10-15 years ago. Once an effective marketing campaign was launched, say over 1-2 years, to attract members and contributions, then a campaign would be launched to get law firms involved in making legal challenges all across the country. These too would generate publicity.

    The organisation needs to be run like a business where the top management has defined roles and is privy to all aspects of the organization. Other people would be hired to accomplish specific tasks and could be fired. They would be hired as contractors and not “permanent employees” so that people can be removed if necessary with minimal legal exposure to the organization.

    Most people are sheeple. Once the organization makes observable progress other men on the sidelines will become dues paying members.

  • Jim Loose III

    Mr. Doyle wrote:

    “To preserve the traditional nuclear family through restoration of equal dignity and equal (not identical) rights under the law for all male persons across a broad spectrum of life, including divorce, employment, health and crime punishment.” Anything essentially similar to this will do. I ask leaders of the major men’s/fathers’ organizations to respond to me with comments, pro and con.

    My own sense of this is that while I understand the cultural impetus behind the gender concern, the legal part of the solution needs to be worded in gender neutral terms. This strikes me as obvious, not only politically, but empirically (i.e., 1-in-5 NCPs are women now, soon to be 1-in-4. Retrieved from the World Wide Web, August 30, 2006: http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cse/pubs/reports/projections/ch02.html#NCC — see Table 2.1 and Figure 2.8)

    If I’m unpopular with hotheads for not ranting against women but, instead, insisting on reform of a system that (at least today) encourages gender-disproportionate irresponsible behavior … I’ll live with it. We need cool heads and measured, responsible reforms rather than the kind of schrieking one might more often associate with the worst aspects of those that some of our brethren claim are responsible for the mess. Women, in general, are responsible for the mess??? Nonsense. The normal American woman is no more empowered than the normal American man. It’s all such a heartbreaking shell game. While ordinary men and women point fingers at each other, a bad legal system laughs all the way to the bank.

    I’m confident that if we’ll just get the channeling function sorted out … the rest of it can be left to sideshows like Jerry Springer. Want to play there? Be our guest. The rest of us are going back to more meaningful lives.

    We need a government constrained by its owners to stay out of families without the proper constitutional tripwire being tripped … the same tripwire between divorced people as married people: Probable Cause to believe that abuse or neglect is occuring. Compel government to observe this limit and most of the rest of the really damaging problems we face will go away. Here is the point of maximum leverage … for good or evil.

    As far as unity goes, I believe you’re saying it’s not possible and not even desirable as long as there’s an alignment around a simple notion of our legitimate aggregate interest. I agree in all respects.

  • Jim Loose III

    Mr. Doyle wrote:

    “To preserve the traditional nuclear family through restoration of equal dignity and equal (not identical) rights under the law for all male persons across a broad spectrum of life, including divorce, employment, health and crime punishment.” Anything essentially similar to this will do. I ask leaders of the major men’s/fathers’ organizations to respond to me with comments, pro and con.

    My own sense of this is that while I understand the cultural impetus behind the gender concern, the legal part of the solution needs to be worded in gender neutral terms. This strikes me as obvious, not only politically, but empirically (i.e., 1-in-5 NCPs are women now, soon to be 1-in-4. Retrieved from the World Wide Web, August 30, 2006: http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cse/pubs/reports/projections/ch02.html#NCC — see Table 2.1 and Figure 2.8)

    If I’m unpopular with hotheads for not ranting against women but, instead, insisting on reform of a system that (at least today) encourages gender-disproportionate irresponsible behavior … I’ll live with it. We need cool heads and measured, responsible reforms rather than the kind of schrieking one might more often associate with the worst aspects of those that some of our brethren claim are responsible for the mess. Women, in general, are responsible for the mess??? Nonsense. The normal American woman is no more empowered than the normal American man. It’s all such a heartbreaking shell game. While ordinary men and women point fingers at each other, a bad legal system laughs all the way to the bank.

    I’m confident that if we’ll just get the channeling function sorted out … the rest of it can be left to sideshows like Jerry Springer. Want to play there? Be our guest. The rest of us are going back to more meaningful lives.

    We need a government constrained by its owners to stay out of families without the proper constitutional tripwire being tripped … the same tripwire between divorced people as married people: Probable Cause to believe that abuse or neglect is occuring. Compel government to observe this limit and most of the rest of the really damaging problems we face will go away. Here is the point of maximum leverage … for good or evil.

    As far as unity goes, I believe you’re saying it’s not possible and not even desirable as long as there’s an alignment around a simple notion of our legitimate aggregate interest. I agree in all respects.

  • http://www.antipeonage.0catch.com Roger Knight

    I always thought the problem was the lack of NUMBERS willing to put up a fight, not the lack of unity of the fighters. My experience is that where organizations came into existence, they often committed organizational suicide by being unable or unwilling to “cross the DMZ and march on Hanoi” meaning fight to win.
    But then again, my definition of “fight to win” includes screaming for the enforcement of the Peonage Law. Do everything else, yes, but do that. Otherwise, everything we do is as useless as mucking around in the Mekong Delta is for preserving South Vietnam as a nation.
    To me, it makes as much sense for a mens’ rights or fathers’ rights’ group to treat the 13th Amendment and the Antipeonage Act like classified information as it does for a gun owners’ rights group to so treat the 2nd Amendment.
    The National Rifle Association wears the 2nd Amendment on its sleeave, the text of the Second is on almost every trinket the NRA sells.
    A National Fathers Association should have the same kick butt attitude and the same willingness to use the 13th Amendment and the Antipeonage Act as its rallying cry.
    So far, all we’ve seen in organizations are a bunch of wusses unwilling to call spades spades and constantly telling us we should comply with patently illegal and unreasonable support orders. Please forgive me for wanting to throw up in the face of such idiots who claim to speak for me.

  • http://www.antipeonage.0catch.com Roger Knight

    I always thought the problem was the lack of NUMBERS willing to put up a fight, not the lack of unity of the fighters. My experience is that where organizations came into existence, they often committed organizational suicide by being unable or unwilling to “cross the DMZ and march on Hanoi” meaning fight to win.
    But then again, my definition of “fight to win” includes screaming for the enforcement of the Peonage Law. Do everything else, yes, but do that. Otherwise, everything we do is as useless as mucking around in the Mekong Delta is for preserving South Vietnam as a nation.
    To me, it makes as much sense for a mens’ rights or fathers’ rights’ group to treat the 13th Amendment and the Antipeonage Act like classified information as it does for a gun owners’ rights group to so treat the 2nd Amendment.
    The National Rifle Association wears the 2nd Amendment on its sleeave, the text of the Second is on almost every trinket the NRA sells.
    A National Fathers Association should have the same kick butt attitude and the same willingness to use the 13th Amendment and the Antipeonage Act as its rallying cry.
    So far, all we’ve seen in organizations are a bunch of wusses unwilling to call spades spades and constantly telling us we should comply with patently illegal and unreasonable support orders. Please forgive me for wanting to throw up in the face of such idiots who claim to speak for me.

  • mruffolo

    Great piece Doyle.

    In Chicago metro home to about five million men , I was unable to locate a group of like minded people. So I came to the Internet.

    I was asked to join a steering committee, but when things got under way, two women feminists joined the group – both strong and outspoken. I observed that they did not understand basic policies and procedures of our family courts. When they tried to lead they had no vision and what they said did not ring true.

    Lack of leadership and vision comes from poor organization and direction.

    In addition from my experience, divorce is considered a private affair. I recall attempting to engage family, friends, and strangers for the first two years, but with no success. Heterosexual, family-orientated men do not receive sympathy and or support.

    Lastly in general, there is no public awareness that fathers have a place to help sort out the many and complex right violations.

    I observe some fathers get mad and rant without out taking an inventory of all that they lost – few people listen to hot heads. Or I expect is most the cases, fathers give up quietly, the enemy is powerful, large, organized, and authorized and run by our government.

    The best government governs least – I would like my government out of personal family life.

  • mruffolo

    Great piece Doyle.

    In Chicago metro home to about five million men , I was unable to locate a group of like minded people. So I came to the Internet.

    I was asked to join a steering committee, but when things got under way, two women feminists joined the group – both strong and outspoken. I observed that they did not understand basic policies and procedures of our family courts. When they tried to lead they had no vision and what they said did not ring true.

    Lack of leadership and vision comes from poor organization and direction.

    In addition from my experience, divorce is considered a private affair. I recall attempting to engage family, friends, and strangers for the first two years, but with no success. Heterosexual, family-orientated men do not receive sympathy and or support.

    Lastly in general, there is no public awareness that fathers have a place to help sort out the many and complex right violations.

    I observe some fathers get mad and rant without out taking an inventory of all that they lost – few people listen to hot heads. Or I expect is most the cases, fathers give up quietly, the enemy is powerful, large, organized, and authorized and run by our government.

    The best government governs least – I would like my government out of personal family life.

  • http://www.dontmakehermad.com/ dontmakehermad

    I am a newbie to the movement. Before I set out and muck anything up, I must ask what individuals or groups ought to be seen as the rightful leaders of the mens rights/fathers rights movements? HOW do I join them? And what are the mistakes that newbies like me ought to avoid?

    I came to this cause thinking that Glenn Sacks was the leader. Am I right, or am I wrong? Whoever the leader is, seems to me a requirement of leadership is recognition of one’s own leadership. Glenn seems to have that, doesn’t he?

    John Dias
    Founder, DontMakeHerMad.com

  • http://www.dontmakehermad.com/ dontmakehermad

    I am a newbie to the movement. Before I set out and muck anything up, I must ask what individuals or groups ought to be seen as the rightful leaders of the mens rights/fathers rights movements? HOW do I join them? And what are the mistakes that newbies like me ought to avoid?

    I came to this cause thinking that Glenn Sacks was the leader. Am I right, or am I wrong? Whoever the leader is, seems to me a requirement of leadership is recognition of one’s own leadership. Glenn seems to have that, doesn’t he?

    John Dias
    Founder, DontMakeHerMad.com

  • Richard Doyle

    Good comments, all. As I said above “The anti-male phenomenon and its oppositional gestalt are …massive and intricate, ranging from the obvious to the subtle…” The issues are treated in detail in my book “Save the Males” available at Amazon.com. It’s somewhat cheaper at lulu.com/mensdefense.

    I am awaiting responses from movement leaders. If they refuse to address these issues, we’re sunk.

  • Richard Doyle

    Good comments, all. As I said above “The anti-male phenomenon and its oppositional gestalt are …massive and intricate, ranging from the obvious to the subtle…” The issues are treated in detail in my book “Save the Males” available at Amazon.com. It’s somewhat cheaper at lulu.com/mensdefense.

    I am awaiting responses from movement leaders. If they refuse to address these issues, we’re sunk.

  • fourthwire

    Pleased to see the initiative, Doyle.

    As you know, it’s all about the timing.

    And as you already know, the men’s rights movement is ready to take that next step in terms of national awareness and unity.

    Count on Kim Gandy and NOW to attempt to subvert and demonize such a group through any means possible, using their political lobbying power to isolate and/or discredit a national men’s/fathers’ rights movement.

    And those government entities that have grown fat off men’s bank accounts will do their absolute worst to derail such a group from attaining their goals.

    My advice regarding the initial suitable choices for the top tiers of such an organization? No feminists. None. Zero.

    As anyone could read for themselves from time to time, even “male-friendly” feminists like Wendy McElroy sometimes “just don’t get it”…………..

    …….. or apparently cannot seem to help themselves when faced with choices involving supporting the status quo of superior women’s rights/privileges and extremely limited responsibilities versus more egalitarian rights, privileges, and responsibilities.

    Not that women should be excluded from participating in the Men’s Rights Movement!

    I would hate to see the initial executive team overly hampered, disrupted, or fragmented by politically correct choices in what is essentially a gender war, that’s all.

    Denis, as usual…… I couldn’t possibly agree more with your post.

    I am not as familiar with the individual MRM personalities as you seem to be, but I do know enough to know that Stephen Baskerville is a great choice for such a team.

    What about Glenn Sacks? Would you consider him to be a good choice for such a national MRM organization?

  • fourthwire

    Pleased to see the initiative, Doyle.

    As you know, it’s all about the timing.

    And as you already know, the men’s rights movement is ready to take that next step in terms of national awareness and unity.

    Count on Kim Gandy and NOW to attempt to subvert and demonize such a group through any means possible, using their political lobbying power to isolate and/or discredit a national men’s/fathers’ rights movement.

    And those government entities that have grown fat off men’s bank accounts will do their absolute worst to derail such a group from attaining their goals.

    My advice regarding the initial suitable choices for the top tiers of such an organization? No feminists. None. Zero.

    As anyone could read for themselves from time to time, even “male-friendly” feminists like Wendy McElroy sometimes “just don’t get it”…………..

    …….. or apparently cannot seem to help themselves when faced with choices involving supporting the status quo of superior women’s rights/privileges and extremely limited responsibilities versus more egalitarian rights, privileges, and responsibilities.

    Not that women should be excluded from participating in the Men’s Rights Movement!

    I would hate to see the initial executive team overly hampered, disrupted, or fragmented by politically correct choices in what is essentially a gender war, that’s all.

    Denis, as usual…… I couldn’t possibly agree more with your post.

    I am not as familiar with the individual MRM personalities as you seem to be, but I do know enough to know that Stephen Baskerville is a great choice for such a team.

    What about Glenn Sacks? Would you consider him to be a good choice for such a national MRM organization?

  • Richard Doyle

    John, Fourthwire: I don’t want to discuss individuals here. My book, Save the Males, lists good organizations, led by non-egotists.

  • Richard Doyle

    John, Fourthwire: I don’t want to discuss individuals here. My book, Save the Males, lists good organizations, led by non-egotists.

  • http://www.dontmakehermad.com/ dontmakehermad

    Richard, maybe it’s the mentality of your last post which is the reason why the men’s rights movement can’t get off the ground! Now I have to buy a book BEFORE I know the organizations I should join?

    Like Nike might say, JUST POST IT.

    John Dias

  • http://www.dontmakehermad.com/ dontmakehermad

    Richard, maybe it’s the mentality of your last post which is the reason why the men’s rights movement can’t get off the ground! Now I have to buy a book BEFORE I know the organizations I should join?

    Like Nike might say, JUST POST IT.

    John Dias

  • pskurnick

    One of the common themes I run into working with women (I am a Nurse over 30 years) is that “… women don’t like working with/for other women. Men seem to have an easier time in cooperating, teaming up and getting results.”
    Well that may have been the case 20 years ago, but I believe women are starting to ‘rub off’ on men.
    What we need is someone to raise the standard and the rest of us need to ‘rally around the flag.’

  • pskurnick

    One of the common themes I run into working with women (I am a Nurse over 30 years) is that “… women don’t like working with/for other women. Men seem to have an easier time in cooperating, teaming up and getting results.”
    Well that may have been the case 20 years ago, but I believe women are starting to ‘rub off’ on men.
    What we need is someone to raise the standard and the rest of us need to ‘rally around the flag.’

  • mruffolo

    A men’s rights leader will have vision and can build consensus. He will have moral authority and be humble. He will not seek to profit for himself. He will have conviction, do the right thing, and have credibility.

    In the past great leaders of civil rights movements have religious backgrounds.

    I am fond of Baskerville, President of ACFC. He demonstrated thought leadership in a few articles that I read. During a divorce storm in my life his insights gave me clarity and direction.

    http://www.stephenbaskerville.net

    Other leaders may be found at:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fathers_rights

    This is now a leadership challenge.

  • mruffolo

    A men’s rights leader will have vision and can build consensus. He will have moral authority and be humble. He will not seek to profit for himself. He will have conviction, do the right thing, and have credibility.

    In the past great leaders of civil rights movements have religious backgrounds.

    I am fond of Baskerville, President of ACFC. He demonstrated thought leadership in a few articles that I read. During a divorce storm in my life his insights gave me clarity and direction.

    http://www.stephenbaskerville.net

    Other leaders may be found at:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fathers_rights

    This is now a leadership challenge.

  • Denis

    “The normal American woman is no more empowered than the normal American man.”

    The utter ignorance of this idea makes me want to be a shreiking “hothead”.

    Over half,of marriages end in divorce.

    Women initiate divorce 8 in 10 times.

    Children are awarded child custody in 9 of 10 cases.

    Sexual harrassment and rape charges alone can, and have, destroyed reputations and careers of men.

    There is no subsequent corresponding equivalent penalty (and therefore no disincentive) to filing false claims of sexual harrassment or rape.

    Men get accused of rape and they are viciously tried in the media. Women molest minors and a string of psychologists examine and try to understand and explain this. Women can murder men and children and get off with significantly lower sentencing than if a man murdered. Across all criminal behavior women get lighter sentencing than men.

    Men have less stake in society and perceive this. They are enrolling and graduating from college at significantly lower rates than women. They are falling behind in secondary schools. They are more likely to commit suicide.

    The government treats the health issues of women with greater importance than for men via much higher funding for women’s health research.

    Look at any corporation. Women are swelling the ranks of management everywhere. Affirmative action is still agressively promoted and practiced taking away the meaning of merit and dis-incentivising men to advance (as the rules are rigged against men)and become strong family providers.

    There has been a HUGE transfer of wealth in America from divorce, preferential hiring/promoting and women will control the majority of wealth in America by 2010.

    Considering the number of marriages in fact ended by women, considering that women in fact get a huge windfall from divorce, considering the number of women in fact working, and in fact becoming better providers than men due to reverse discrimination, considering that women in fact get better treatment in the media, and considering that women CAN (although not ALL DO, but ALL CAN), get child custody, get better career prospects, get off with lesser sentencing for the same crime, and considering that women WILL control the majority of wealth in America, it is pretty damn naive to say:

    “The normal American woman is no more empowered than the normal American man.”

    Maybe men will wake up when the day arrives that there is absoluitely no doubt in anyone’s mind that men are f***ed. By then it will be definitely too late.

  • Denis

    “The normal American woman is no more empowered than the normal American man.”

    The utter ignorance of this idea makes me want to be a shreiking “hothead”.

    Over half,of marriages end in divorce.

    Women initiate divorce 8 in 10 times.

    Children are awarded child custody in 9 of 10 cases.

    Sexual harrassment and rape charges alone can, and have, destroyed reputations and careers of men.

    There is no subsequent corresponding equivalent penalty (and therefore no disincentive) to filing false claims of sexual harrassment or rape.

    Men get accused of rape and they are viciously tried in the media. Women molest minors and a string of psychologists examine and try to understand and explain this. Women can murder men and children and get off with significantly lower sentencing than if a man murdered. Across all criminal behavior women get lighter sentencing than men.

    Men have less stake in society and perceive this. They are enrolling and graduating from college at significantly lower rates than women. They are falling behind in secondary schools. They are more likely to commit suicide.

    The government treats the health issues of women with greater importance than for men via much higher funding for women’s health research.

    Look at any corporation. Women are swelling the ranks of management everywhere. Affirmative action is still agressively promoted and practiced taking away the meaning of merit and dis-incentivising men to advance (as the rules are rigged against men)and become strong family providers.

    There has been a HUGE transfer of wealth in America from divorce, preferential hiring/promoting and women will control the majority of wealth in America by 2010.

    Considering the number of marriages in fact ended by women, considering that women in fact get a huge windfall from divorce, considering the number of women in fact working, and in fact becoming better providers than men due to reverse discrimination, considering that women in fact get better treatment in the media, and considering that women CAN (although not ALL DO, but ALL CAN), get child custody, get better career prospects, get off with lesser sentencing for the same crime, and considering that women WILL control the majority of wealth in America, it is pretty damn naive to say:

    “The normal American woman is no more empowered than the normal American man.”

    Maybe men will wake up when the day arrives that there is absoluitely no doubt in anyone’s mind that men are f***ed. By then it will be definitely too late.

  • Denis

    opps.

    “Children are awarded child custody in 9 of 10 cases.”

    should read:

    Women are awarded child custody in 9 of 10 cases.

  • Denis

    opps.

    “Children are awarded child custody in 9 of 10 cases.”

    should read:

    Women are awarded child custody in 9 of 10 cases.

  • DadWithGirls

    Richard D. advocates as the basic focus for MRA’s — “To preserve the traditional nuclear family…”

    Sadly, this premise as a foundational principle for a viable men’s movement is DOA – Dead On Arrival.

    Why?

    Because the “traditional nuclear family” as Americans understand it was a consequence of World War II and the dominance of the U.S. economy globally from 1949 to mid-1980’s.

    The traditional nuclear family was (past tense intended) an artifact of economic conditions.

    To be brief – U.S. economic dominance happened because of the destruction of European and Asian manufacturing during the Big War.

    America, never bombed in its continental states, immune from the destruction of years of local war, takes over the world economy.

    You could be a brain-dead G.I. bill college grad in management in 1959 and make a fortune. No competition whatsoever! (Saying a product was “made in Japan” meant “cheap trash.”)

    History is a bitch.

    Fast forward to 2006 —

    Once dominant America now has to compete on a level playing field with Asia, Europe, South America, Scandinavia, even Canada! (Sorry Canada … you still rule the Global Hockey Cartel!)

    The 1950’s – 1960’s- 1970’s working-class dad could raise his family with four kids and a stay-at-home-wife on a $6.75/hr. wage. And he was a member of a union that could actually fight give-backs instead of just capitulate to corporatism.

    NAFTA changed all that.

    Now, American families with two working parents are competing against Chinese and East Indian and Bolivian economies where Third World nuclear families are just thankful to have food, shelter, and running water.

    Actually, they are thankful that no member of their family was killed today.

    To cut to the brutal chase —

    “The traditional American family” is an economic liability, an anachronism, and every globally competitive corporation’s target-for-extinction.

    Feminism is a SHILL! A distraction. A footnote.

    A simple handmaiden serving much more intelligent masters.

    Can you GET IT yet?

  • DadWithGirls

    Richard D. advocates as the basic focus for MRA’s — “To preserve the traditional nuclear family…”

    Sadly, this premise as a foundational principle for a viable men’s movement is DOA – Dead On Arrival.

    Why?

    Because the “traditional nuclear family” as Americans understand it was a consequence of World War II and the dominance of the U.S. economy globally from 1949 to mid-1980’s.

    The traditional nuclear family was (past tense intended) an artifact of economic conditions.

    To be brief – U.S. economic dominance happened because of the destruction of European and Asian manufacturing during the Big War.

    America, never bombed in its continental states, immune from the destruction of years of local war, takes over the world economy.

    You could be a brain-dead G.I. bill college grad in management in 1959 and make a fortune. No competition whatsoever! (Saying a product was “made in Japan” meant “cheap trash.”)

    History is a bitch.

    Fast forward to 2006 —

    Once dominant America now has to compete on a level playing field with Asia, Europe, South America, Scandinavia, even Canada! (Sorry Canada … you still rule the Global Hockey Cartel!)

    The 1950’s – 1960’s- 1970’s working-class dad could raise his family with four kids and a stay-at-home-wife on a $6.75/hr. wage. And he was a member of a union that could actually fight give-backs instead of just capitulate to corporatism.

    NAFTA changed all that.

    Now, American families with two working parents are competing against Chinese and East Indian and Bolivian economies where Third World nuclear families are just thankful to have food, shelter, and running water.

    Actually, they are thankful that no member of their family was killed today.

    To cut to the brutal chase —

    “The traditional American family” is an economic liability, an anachronism, and every globally competitive corporation’s target-for-extinction.

    Feminism is a SHILL! A distraction. A footnote.

    A simple handmaiden serving much more intelligent masters.

    Can you GET IT yet?

  • Jim Loose III

    To: DadWithGirls
    Fr: A dad with a girl

    Thanks for one of the more insightful posts I’ve ever seen. Chaps like you, if you’ll only talk to your legislature, can get a lot done.

    We have fixable problems. The banshees can scream all they want to but the people running the show KNOW we’ve gone off the rails and are just waiting for us to tell them what we want.

  • Jim Loose III

    To: DadWithGirls
    Fr: A dad with a girl

    Thanks for one of the more insightful posts I’ve ever seen. Chaps like you, if you’ll only talk to your legislature, can get a lot done.

    We have fixable problems. The banshees can scream all they want to but the people running the show KNOW we’ve gone off the rails and are just waiting for us to tell them what we want.

  • mruffolo

    Feminists hate family: pro-abortion, pro-homo, pro-divorce, pro-adultery, anti-father, and anti-housewife.

    While marriage is not for every one, family will return to favor. It is the cornerstone of a fruitful and successful way to live life. The best culture begins with family by honoring father and mother.

    No good comes from divorce.

    I agree that in 500 years feminism may be a footnote in history some books, however, today feminism dominates western culture.

    Two incomes may be needed today due to materialism and entitlement. It’s telling to compare spending habits between today’s household and yesteryears. Evidence is the Amish community were many things have not changed in the past 100 years, yet they live and prosper.

  • mruffolo

    Feminists hate family: pro-abortion, pro-homo, pro-divorce, pro-adultery, anti-father, and anti-housewife.

    While marriage is not for every one, family will return to favor. It is the cornerstone of a fruitful and successful way to live life. The best culture begins with family by honoring father and mother.

    No good comes from divorce.

    I agree that in 500 years feminism may be a footnote in history some books, however, today feminism dominates western culture.

    Two incomes may be needed today due to materialism and entitlement. It’s telling to compare spending habits between today’s household and yesteryears. Evidence is the Amish community were many things have not changed in the past 100 years, yet they live and prosper.

  • DadWithGirls

    Jim Loose III — “Chaps like you, if you’ll only talk to your legislature, can get a lot done.”

    While I appreciate a random compliment, you have seriously overestimated my commitment to false democracy here stateside. (You’re a Brit, yes?)

    The only time I would ever recommend talking to a member of our current legislature is if you have a loaded gun cocked to his temple, and the answer to your question is “Yes” – or – “No.”

    I’m speaking only metaphorically, because with the Patriot Act II, I would never want to be taken literally.

    We have such perfect leaders now, we have no right to complain….

  • DadWithGirls

    Jim Loose III — “Chaps like you, if you’ll only talk to your legislature, can get a lot done.”

    While I appreciate a random compliment, you have seriously overestimated my commitment to false democracy here stateside. (You’re a Brit, yes?)

    The only time I would ever recommend talking to a member of our current legislature is if you have a loaded gun cocked to his temple, and the answer to your question is “Yes” – or – “No.”

    I’m speaking only metaphorically, because with the Patriot Act II, I would never want to be taken literally.

    We have such perfect leaders now, we have no right to complain….

  • Jim Loose III

    DWG … I’m from TX and I’ve been very pleasantly surprised at our reception in the legislature. I understand anyone being skeptical … until they take the time to prepare and then try.

    Our arguments are superior to our opponents’ … hands down. And those of us who are actually working the sytem are finding it works.

    I hope you’ll give it a try. We need your CPU speed in the fight … both immediately and what’s to come.

  • Jim Loose III

    DWG … I’m from TX and I’ve been very pleasantly surprised at our reception in the legislature. I understand anyone being skeptical … until they take the time to prepare and then try.

    Our arguments are superior to our opponents’ … hands down. And those of us who are actually working the sytem are finding it works.

    I hope you’ll give it a try. We need your CPU speed in the fight … both immediately and what’s to come.

  • http://www.antipeonage.0catch.com Roger Knight

    Glenn Sacks has done a lot for us, it is true. But here is where he blows it:
    At my http://www.antipeonage.0catch.com/allies.htm page:

    http://www.hisside.com Glenn Sacks web site. I am really disappointed with him. While he has done great service for fathers’ rights and restoring constitutional principles to family law, his attitude toward Perry Manley is as inexplicable as our Republicans In Name Only, the RINO’s. Here is what he said about Perry.

    Sorry but I’ll Have to Pass
    It’s almost the one year anniversary of the death of Perry Manley, a Seattle fathers’ activist who committed “suicide by cop” last June. Manley entered the federal courthouse in Seattle with what appeared to be a grenade, refused to surrender or negotiate, and made a sudden move, after which police fired, killing him. Unfortunately in the wake of his death Manley has been made into a hero by certain misguided fathers’ activists. For example, one activist recently wrote:
    “I have never forgotten Perry Manley…I grieved for him then. I grieve for him now. I remember when they shot him down. I watched it all unfold on TV…Perry wasn’t asking for much. He just wanted justice and to be a Dad. Instead people treated him like a ‘kook.’ But we know he was a martyr for our cause–no matter what anyone says to the contrary. I will never forget him. He fought alone like so many of us…I will never forget Perry, I will always honor what he stood for.”
    Another wrote:
    “Manley devoted his life fighting government imposed control of our income and interference in our lives when parents divorce. He stood largely alone and was essentially driven crazy to a degree…it’s important that we don’t forget about him and honor what he stood for.”
    Sorry, but I’ll have to pass. I gave my opinion in this enewsletter at the time of the shooting last year, and was greatly criticized by some for it. What I wrote still seems accurate to me. It appears below, exactly as it was a year ago:
    My Opinion of Perry Manley’s ‘Suicide by Cop’
    Many of you have written to me asking my opinion of Perry Manley’s ‘Suicide by Cop’ Monday in Seattle. Manley, angry over a family court matter, entered the courthouse with what appeared to be a grenade. According to police, Manley refused to surrender or negotiate, and made a sudden move, after which police fired, killing him. The grenade turned out to be a fake–Manley was unarmed.
    As for Manley’s family court grievance, the facts, as far as I can ascertain them, are:
    Manley divorced in 1990 from his wife, with whom he had 3 kids.
    Manley claimed the child support system had treated him unfairly. I don’t know if this is true, but it certainly is a common problem for divorced dads.
    Manley claimed that his ex-wife interfered with his visitation with his kids and alienated them against him. Again, I don’t know if this is true, but it certainly is a common problem.
    Manley claimed that paying child support in and of itself was unconstitutional and a violation of his human rights. He made this his central issue, as opposed to the alleged violations of his custody and visitation rights.
    Manley claimed that a judge who had ruled against him had violated the constitution in his dealings with him, thus violating his oath of office and committing “treason” which, Manley said, is punishable by death.
    I have received many letters telling me that Manley is a hero, and even that I should honor him (or his memory) on my radio show this Sunday. I’ll pass. Manley was unarmed, and that certainly counts in his favor, but his actions were reckless and needlessly put innocent civilians in harm’s way. It served no constructive purpose but instead makes it easier for our many enemies to portray divorced dads as violent nuts.
    While many divorced dads are abused by the child support system, it is unclear whether the child support demands upon Manley, who had three children in need of support, were unreasonable. Manley made child support, not his rights as a father, his central issue.
    Had Manley done what David Chick did, I could support him. David Chick is a hero. Gary LaMusga is a hero. Jolly Stansby and Ron Davis and Gary S. and Edgar P. and John Brumbaugh and Benoit Leroux are heroes. Manley may (or may not) have been a victim of a family law system which has torn millions of fathers and children apart. But either way there was nothing heroic about his actions this week.”
    Around the same time last year, in a letter to one of my detractors, I wrote:
    “If Manley had talked about his access to his children and made them the issue, I would be a lot more sympathetic. But he rarely mentioned that, instead focusing on this child support constitutionality nonsense. He was asked to pay $650 a month to support three children (apparently it was only $210 a month in the beginning). Was that unfair? Is that what he died for? OK, he didn’t like paying through the government, which I understand, but where’s the real grievance here? He had 3 kids in need of support, he was the family breadwinner so he was obligated to pay it–so what? (inserted comment: Glenn done drank the “you owe it to them, anyway” Kool-Aid!!) I’ve got 10,000 letters in my email box from guys who have bigger grievances than this. If he made the issue his access to his kids I’d sympathize, but he hardly even mentioned his kids. Also, given his mental instability (which many who knew him have written to me about), it’s possible that he was alienated from his kids in part because of his own actions, not his ex-wife’s.”

    And I say: 
    Mr. Manley DID talk about access to his children. But what he understood, what too many, including Glenn Sacks refuse to see, is that Child Support is THE reason we do not get shared parenting or custody to the breadwinner!!! It is THE motivation behind the gender bias Glenn Sacks complains so bitterly of. Take Child Support and the denial of equal protection of state constitutions that prohibit imprisonment for debt out of the equation, then we will HAVE shared parenting. Under the present circumstances, paying Child Support is paying the kidnapper’s ransom, without getting the hostage back! Asking for fair treatment while expecting the payment of child support by those unfairly treated and not objecting to the violation of most constitutional provisions protecting our rights in the enforcement of these obligations is like asking for solutions to the energy crises without building nuclear power plants, solar and wind power systems, biodiesel fuel production, reasonable conservation measures, and drilling for petroleum in Alaska. To SOLVE the problems we, including Glenn Sacks, complain of, we need to DESTROY the Child Support Apparatus. That REQUIRES SCREAMING FOR THE ENFORCEMENT OF THE PEONAGE LAW!!!
    Glenn, we love you, but please reconsider.
    BTW, Manley’s children were adequately supported by the ex-wife and her new husband, the guy with whom she committed adultery and thereby SABOTAGED her marriage to Perry Manley. Before no-fault divorce, proof of the adultery would have saved for Perry custody of the children because a parent who leads by the example of adultery was considered an unfit parent deserving to lose custody of the children even if not also bound over into child support peonage. A constitutional limitation on the parent’s liability to pay support to a custodial parent with sufficient resources is the Troxel minimum. It is based on Meyer, Pierce, Yoder and other decisions establishing fundamental rights of the parents.
    Asserting constitutional rights and principles is NEVER misguided! To deny them is treason!
    Apparently “misguided” fathers’ rights activists include:
    Roger F. Gay and David R. Usher at http://www.mensnewsdaily.com.
    Phyllis Schafly is another “misguided” soul.
    Look, Glenn, and you support enforcers out there, here’s the deal:
    Whenever ANYONE, I don’t give a fuck WHO, including the mother of my children, demand that I get a job to pay them money or they will throw me in jail and set forth other EXTORTIONATE THREATS, then I have the God given right, AS A HUMAN BEING, LET ALONE AS AN AMERICAN to respond with:
    FUCK YOU!!!!!!
    And if you don’t like it, then:
    STOP TREATING US LIKE SHIT!!!!!!
    Got it?

    Here is a BIG part of the problem of getting a national fathers’ rights group together: People like Glenn Sacks look like good possiblities for leadership and then they SAY THE STUPIDIST THINGS about those of us WHO HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF THE SITUATION AND WHO PAID THE ULTIMATE SACRIFICE.
    That is not how you become a leader Glenn.

  • http://www.antipeonage.0catch.com Roger Knight

    Glenn Sacks has done a lot for us, it is true. But here is where he blows it:
    At my http://www.antipeonage.0catch.com/allies.htm page:

    http://www.hisside.com Glenn Sacks web site. I am really disappointed with him. While he has done great service for fathers’ rights and restoring constitutional principles to family law, his attitude toward Perry Manley is as inexplicable as our Republicans In Name Only, the RINO’s. Here is what he said about Perry.

    Sorry but I’ll Have to Pass
    It’s almost the one year anniversary of the death of Perry Manley, a Seattle fathers’ activist who committed “suicide by cop” last June. Manley entered the federal courthouse in Seattle with what appeared to be a grenade, refused to surrender or negotiate, and made a sudden move, after which police fired, killing him. Unfortunately in the wake of his death Manley has been made into a hero by certain misguided fathers’ activists. For example, one activist recently wrote:
    “I have never forgotten Perry Manley…I grieved for him then. I grieve for him now. I remember when they shot him down. I watched it all unfold on TV…Perry wasn’t asking for much. He just wanted justice and to be a Dad. Instead people treated him like a ‘kook.’ But we know he was a martyr for our cause–no matter what anyone says to the contrary. I will never forget him. He fought alone like so many of us…I will never forget Perry, I will always honor what he stood for.”
    Another wrote:
    “Manley devoted his life fighting government imposed control of our income and interference in our lives when parents divorce. He stood largely alone and was essentially driven crazy to a degree…it’s important that we don’t forget about him and honor what he stood for.”
    Sorry, but I’ll have to pass. I gave my opinion in this enewsletter at the time of the shooting last year, and was greatly criticized by some for it. What I wrote still seems accurate to me. It appears below, exactly as it was a year ago:
    My Opinion of Perry Manley’s ‘Suicide by Cop’
    Many of you have written to me asking my opinion of Perry Manley’s ‘Suicide by Cop’ Monday in Seattle. Manley, angry over a family court matter, entered the courthouse with what appeared to be a grenade. According to police, Manley refused to surrender or negotiate, and made a sudden move, after which police fired, killing him. The grenade turned out to be a fake–Manley was unarmed.
    As for Manley’s family court grievance, the facts, as far as I can ascertain them, are:
    Manley divorced in 1990 from his wife, with whom he had 3 kids.
    Manley claimed the child support system had treated him unfairly. I don’t know if this is true, but it certainly is a common problem for divorced dads.
    Manley claimed that his ex-wife interfered with his visitation with his kids and alienated them against him. Again, I don’t know if this is true, but it certainly is a common problem.
    Manley claimed that paying child support in and of itself was unconstitutional and a violation of his human rights. He made this his central issue, as opposed to the alleged violations of his custody and visitation rights.
    Manley claimed that a judge who had ruled against him had violated the constitution in his dealings with him, thus violating his oath of office and committing “treason” which, Manley said, is punishable by death.
    I have received many letters telling me that Manley is a hero, and even that I should honor him (or his memory) on my radio show this Sunday. I’ll pass. Manley was unarmed, and that certainly counts in his favor, but his actions were reckless and needlessly put innocent civilians in harm’s way. It served no constructive purpose but instead makes it easier for our many enemies to portray divorced dads as violent nuts.
    While many divorced dads are abused by the child support system, it is unclear whether the child support demands upon Manley, who had three children in need of support, were unreasonable. Manley made child support, not his rights as a father, his central issue.
    Had Manley done what David Chick did, I could support him. David Chick is a hero. Gary LaMusga is a hero. Jolly Stansby and Ron Davis and Gary S. and Edgar P. and John Brumbaugh and Benoit Leroux are heroes. Manley may (or may not) have been a victim of a family law system which has torn millions of fathers and children apart. But either way there was nothing heroic about his actions this week.”
    Around the same time last year, in a letter to one of my detractors, I wrote:
    “If Manley had talked about his access to his children and made them the issue, I would be a lot more sympathetic. But he rarely mentioned that, instead focusing on this child support constitutionality nonsense. He was asked to pay $650 a month to support three children (apparently it was only $210 a month in the beginning). Was that unfair? Is that what he died for? OK, he didn’t like paying through the government, which I understand, but where’s the real grievance here? He had 3 kids in need of support, he was the family breadwinner so he was obligated to pay it–so what? (inserted comment: Glenn done drank the “you owe it to them, anyway” Kool-Aid!!) I’ve got 10,000 letters in my email box from guys who have bigger grievances than this. If he made the issue his access to his kids I’d sympathize, but he hardly even mentioned his kids. Also, given his mental instability (which many who knew him have written to me about), it’s possible that he was alienated from his kids in part because of his own actions, not his ex-wife’s.”

    And I say: 
    Mr. Manley DID talk about access to his children. But what he understood, what too many, including Glenn Sacks refuse to see, is that Child Support is THE reason we do not get shared parenting or custody to the breadwinner!!! It is THE motivation behind the gender bias Glenn Sacks complains so bitterly of. Take Child Support and the denial of equal protection of state constitutions that prohibit imprisonment for debt out of the equation, then we will HAVE shared parenting. Under the present circumstances, paying Child Support is paying the kidnapper’s ransom, without getting the hostage back! Asking for fair treatment while expecting the payment of child support by those unfairly treated and not objecting to the violation of most constitutional provisions protecting our rights in the enforcement of these obligations is like asking for solutions to the energy crises without building nuclear power plants, solar and wind power systems, biodiesel fuel production, reasonable conservation measures, and drilling for petroleum in Alaska. To SOLVE the problems we, including Glenn Sacks, complain of, we need to DESTROY the Child Support Apparatus. That REQUIRES SCREAMING FOR THE ENFORCEMENT OF THE PEONAGE LAW!!!
    Glenn, we love you, but please reconsider.
    BTW, Manley’s children were adequately supported by the ex-wife and her new husband, the guy with whom she committed adultery and thereby SABOTAGED her marriage to Perry Manley. Before no-fault divorce, proof of the adultery would have saved for Perry custody of the children because a parent who leads by the example of adultery was considered an unfit parent deserving to lose custody of the children even if not also bound over into child support peonage. A constitutional limitation on the parent’s liability to pay support to a custodial parent with sufficient resources is the Troxel minimum. It is based on Meyer, Pierce, Yoder and other decisions establishing fundamental rights of the parents.
    Asserting constitutional rights and principles is NEVER misguided! To deny them is treason!
    Apparently “misguided” fathers’ rights activists include:
    Roger F. Gay and David R. Usher at http://www.mensnewsdaily.com.
    Phyllis Schafly is another “misguided” soul.
    Look, Glenn, and you support enforcers out there, here’s the deal:
    Whenever ANYONE, I don’t give a fuck WHO, including the mother of my children, demand that I get a job to pay them money or they will throw me in jail and set forth other EXTORTIONATE THREATS, then I have the God given right, AS A HUMAN BEING, LET ALONE AS AN AMERICAN to respond with:
    FUCK YOU!!!!!!
    And if you don’t like it, then:
    STOP TREATING US LIKE SHIT!!!!!!
    Got it?

    Here is a BIG part of the problem of getting a national fathers’ rights group together: People like Glenn Sacks look like good possiblities for leadership and then they SAY THE STUPIDIST THINGS about those of us WHO HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF THE SITUATION AND WHO PAID THE ULTIMATE SACRIFICE.
    That is not how you become a leader Glenn.

  • David R. Usher

    There is no reason why pro-family activists of both sexes cannot win the war against feminism.

    The problem is not women vs. men, which is the idealogy driving the western-culture pogrom against men and marriage. The problem is feminism, which is deeply metastacised in key power centers such as academia, law, politics, and social services.

    The answer is to lead everyone who is unhappy with their lot in this mess to reject feminism, its ideologies, and its policies.

    There are a large number of women who are unhappy with their lot as single mothers. There are millions of grandparents who know better. And about half the adult men who married have one heck of a lot of free time on their hands, since they are not allowed to be parents.

    We must replace feminism with trust between the sexes. We must teach the “good marriage”. We must enact policies that expect marital responsibility and not reward those who are irresponsible to it. We must stop entitling illegitimacy. We must enact policies that help spouses work through the normal problems of marriage and aging (which is what the psychological profession used to do). The problems include the 2-year baby-blues, the 4-year boredom, the 7-year itch, and the 15-year mid-life crisis. These are the stumbling blocks that feminists take advantage of to lead women (and feminist men) out of marriage at a weak moment.

    We must organize politically. We must establish beach-heads on college campuses (college men who know better have a tremendous stake in this: if they allow feminism to run them over in college, it guarantees they will be sacked later in life. The first step in this is to assert legitimacy of the pro-marriage movement on college campuses, and replace phony gay organizations masquerading as “men’s rights” organizations.

    Men’s rights activists MUST stop pretending this is a male vs. female battle. The enemy is feminism, which is a sick political movement that ran out of reasonable things to do about 40 years ago. We must work with all women who are sick and tired of having to do it all on less money. Second wives are a tremendous asset.

    These concepts form a new political grounds that feminists cannot win on. It is a ground that is appealing to most voters. I guarantee everyone that at least 65% of the voters in America will vote for these ideas, if we can just build the framework and put the politics in place.

    Internally, men’s groups that tend to be politically correct MUST work closely with those who are more activist and likely to protest. We must have folks who can walk the halls of congress with white hats on. But, they won’t get far if there are not a lot of people out there raising heck. This is the one single element that has kept the men’s movement weak all these years.

    The bottom line: this is NOT about men’s rights or women’s rights. Its about everybody’s right to live a decent life without social activists, lawyers, and politicians waving incentives destroying their marriages and leaving them in far worse shape than they would have been had government been supportive of marriage in the first place. We are “the legitimate marriage movement”. When you think about it, everything the men’s movement has wanted all along fits under that much larger and much more realistic bellweather.

    The upcoming elections hold important lessons that will teach political analysts something they have been desperately ignoring. Both parties are torporific on social issues. Voters are NOT happy. Voters do not want “business as usual”, and they do not want a new welfare-state under Hillary. Fear of terrorism is not going to carry elections for long (this emotional card will not last long).

    The first party to add positive social policy that speaks to the vast majority of Americans (who just want a halfway decent marriage), in addition to holding strong positions on terrorism, will clean house.

    The race is on. Saddle up your horses, folks, and prepare for a long and wild ride.

    I do intend to lead this movement into a much stronger position. I urge all groups to follow these principles and mesh on them.

  • David R. Usher

    There is no reason why pro-family activists of both sexes cannot win the war against feminism.

    The problem is not women vs. men, which is the idealogy driving the western-culture pogrom against men and marriage. The problem is feminism, which is deeply metastacised in key power centers such as academia, law, politics, and social services.

    The answer is to lead everyone who is unhappy with their lot in this mess to reject feminism, its ideologies, and its policies.

    There are a large number of women who are unhappy with their lot as single mothers. There are millions of grandparents who know better. And about half the adult men who married have one heck of a lot of free time on their hands, since they are not allowed to be parents.

    We must replace feminism with trust between the sexes. We must teach the “good marriage”. We must enact policies that expect marital responsibility and not reward those who are irresponsible to it. We must stop entitling illegitimacy. We must enact policies that help spouses work through the normal problems of marriage and aging (which is what the psychological profession used to do). The problems include the 2-year baby-blues, the 4-year boredom, the 7-year itch, and the 15-year mid-life crisis. These are the stumbling blocks that feminists take advantage of to lead women (and feminist men) out of marriage at a weak moment.

    We must organize politically. We must establish beach-heads on college campuses (college men who know better have a tremendous stake in this: if they allow feminism to run them over in college, it guarantees they will be sacked later in life. The first step in this is to assert legitimacy of the pro-marriage movement on college campuses, and replace phony gay organizations masquerading as “men’s rights” organizations.

    Men’s rights activists MUST stop pretending this is a male vs. female battle. The enemy is feminism, which is a sick political movement that ran out of reasonable things to do about 40 years ago. We must work with all women who are sick and tired of having to do it all on less money. Second wives are a tremendous asset.

    These concepts form a new political grounds that feminists cannot win on. It is a ground that is appealing to most voters. I guarantee everyone that at least 65% of the voters in America will vote for these ideas, if we can just build the framework and put the politics in place.

    Internally, men’s groups that tend to be politically correct MUST work closely with those who are more activist and likely to protest. We must have folks who can walk the halls of congress with white hats on. But, they won’t get far if there are not a lot of people out there raising heck. This is the one single element that has kept the men’s movement weak all these years.

    The bottom line: this is NOT about men’s rights or women’s rights. Its about everybody’s right to live a decent life without social activists, lawyers, and politicians waving incentives destroying their marriages and leaving them in far worse shape than they would have been had government been supportive of marriage in the first place. We are “the legitimate marriage movement”. When you think about it, everything the men’s movement has wanted all along fits under that much larger and much more realistic bellweather.

    The upcoming elections hold important lessons that will teach political analysts something they have been desperately ignoring. Both parties are torporific on social issues. Voters are NOT happy. Voters do not want “business as usual”, and they do not want a new welfare-state under Hillary. Fear of terrorism is not going to carry elections for long (this emotional card will not last long).

    The first party to add positive social policy that speaks to the vast majority of Americans (who just want a halfway decent marriage), in addition to holding strong positions on terrorism, will clean house.

    The race is on. Saddle up your horses, folks, and prepare for a long and wild ride.

    I do intend to lead this movement into a much stronger position. I urge all groups to follow these principles and mesh on them.

  • http://www.dontmakehermad.com/ dontmakehermad

    HELLO, PEOPLE? A lot of great talk here but little action. There needs to be a call to action, and I submit that the author of this article needs to define that.

    For example:

    1. Visit (website) and sign up for legislative alerts
    2. Join (group) and contribute dues that help in its lobbying and communication efforts
    3. Write to (list of key legislators) encouraging them to pass better legislation and repeal bad laws
    4. Read (list of books) to educate and prepare yourself for coming debates
    5. Volunteer your time at (cause)
    6. Support (list of candidates for office) for election, and vote for/against these (list of ballot propositions)

    All I get out of this discussion is that we need to buy Richard’s book, Save the Males. Okay, maybe we need to read this book, but the focus of the article was that we need to coalesce as a movement. I cannot equate coming together as a movement with buying Richard Doyle’s book. The book is a “nice to have,” but we cannot make our movement contingent on such a requirement.

    Are there not existing groups and individuals that have already blazed a trail? Can we not simply identify and join them? If, through these comments on the article, it becomes apparent that there is no agreement on who these organizations and leaders are, then the author should define them in the article! He should define them without expecting us to buy his book first (how self-serving is that requirement)?

    John Dias
    Founder, DontMakeHerMad.com

  • http://www.dontmakehermad.com/ dontmakehermad

    HELLO, PEOPLE? A lot of great talk here but little action. There needs to be a call to action, and I submit that the author of this article needs to define that.

    For example:

    1. Visit (website) and sign up for legislative alerts
    2. Join (group) and contribute dues that help in its lobbying and communication efforts
    3. Write to (list of key legislators) encouraging them to pass better legislation and repeal bad laws
    4. Read (list of books) to educate and prepare yourself for coming debates
    5. Volunteer your time at (cause)
    6. Support (list of candidates for office) for election, and vote for/against these (list of ballot propositions)

    All I get out of this discussion is that we need to buy Richard’s book, Save the Males. Okay, maybe we need to read this book, but the focus of the article was that we need to coalesce as a movement. I cannot equate coming together as a movement with buying Richard Doyle’s book. The book is a “nice to have,” but we cannot make our movement contingent on such a requirement.

    Are there not existing groups and individuals that have already blazed a trail? Can we not simply identify and join them? If, through these comments on the article, it becomes apparent that there is no agreement on who these organizations and leaders are, then the author should define them in the article! He should define them without expecting us to buy his book first (how self-serving is that requirement)?

    John Dias
    Founder, DontMakeHerMad.com

  • mruffolo

    John,

    Thanks for the call for action list.

    You may add:

    7) Witness to friends and family
    8) Do not encourage feminists
    9) Donate your money to men’s groups
    10) Encourage each father, honor your father
    11) Protest against anti-father, anti-male anything
    12) Be kind, be tough

  • mruffolo

    John,

    Thanks for the call for action list.

    You may add:

    7) Witness to friends and family
    8) Do not encourage feminists
    9) Donate your money to men’s groups
    10) Encourage each father, honor your father
    11) Protest against anti-father, anti-male anything
    12) Be kind, be tough

  • Denis

    “Because the “traditional nuclear family” as Americans understand it was a consequence of World War II and the dominance of the U.S. economy globally from 1949 to mid-1980’s.”

    “Thanks for one of the more insightful posts I’ve ever seen. Chaps like you, if you’ll only talk to your legislature, can get a lot done.”

    You genius’ should have spoke up a long time ago. The traditional family came under assault by the feminists around 1965 and has been under assault ever since. So, using your dates and mine, from 1949 to 1965 there were 16 years of the traditional family that was at peace with America. Prior to that according to your logic, there was no traditional family. Men and women had it equally good or equally bad depending on ones place in life. Is that what you are saying? (History shows that men were far worse off.) So we had 16 years of the traditonal family according to your thinking: A man as husband, provider and father and a woman as wife homemaker and mother; or what feminists like to call The Patriarchy (otherwise known as The Evil Patriarchy). 16 years where women HAD IT SO BAD according to the feminists.Afterwards, men have seen political, legal, economic, and social power systematically taken from men and turned over to women. So Men have paid a big price for 40 years because women had it so bad for 16 years. Insightful?? Not!!

    Your thinking about the “traditional nuclear family as Americans understand it” is flawed and lacks insight. Try looking at Census data going back about 200 years.

    Too damn bad guys like you can handle living with conflict from feminists but can’t handle justified conflict coming from men…but I can live with that.

  • Denis

    “Because the “traditional nuclear family” as Americans understand it was a consequence of World War II and the dominance of the U.S. economy globally from 1949 to mid-1980’s.”

    “Thanks for one of the more insightful posts I’ve ever seen. Chaps like you, if you’ll only talk to your legislature, can get a lot done.”

    You genius’ should have spoke up a long time ago. The traditional family came under assault by the feminists around 1965 and has been under assault ever since. So, using your dates and mine, from 1949 to 1965 there were 16 years of the traditional family that was at peace with America. Prior to that according to your logic, there was no traditional family. Men and women had it equally good or equally bad depending on ones place in life. Is that what you are saying? (History shows that men were far worse off.) So we had 16 years of the traditonal family according to your thinking: A man as husband, provider and father and a woman as wife homemaker and mother; or what feminists like to call The Patriarchy (otherwise known as The Evil Patriarchy). 16 years where women HAD IT SO BAD according to the feminists.Afterwards, men have seen political, legal, economic, and social power systematically taken from men and turned over to women. So Men have paid a big price for 40 years because women had it so bad for 16 years. Insightful?? Not!!

    Your thinking about the “traditional nuclear family as Americans understand it” is flawed and lacks insight. Try looking at Census data going back about 200 years.

    Too damn bad guys like you can handle living with conflict from feminists but can’t handle justified conflict coming from men…but I can live with that.

  • Denis

    “Men’s rights activists MUST stop pretending this is a male vs. female battle. The enemy is feminism, which is a sick political movement that ran out of reasonable things to do about 40 years ago. We must work with all women who are sick and tired of having to do it all on less money. Second wives are a tremendous asset.”

    Look, get something clear. WOMEN have the power including the power to make bad decisions that have consequnces-oftentimes bad consequences. The first to experience these bad consequences were men. Now they are finally affecting the women. If women are overworked, find men hostile and unchivalrous, and have gotten bored with the cat THAT is a result of THEIR actions. If the dream of “having it all” has turned into a nightmare who is to blame? THEY listened to the false promises of feminists-and made men collateral damage in the process. If we kicked all the feminists out we would still be living with the consequences of the decisions of 10s of millions of women. THEIR decisions. Change the damn laws and make this country a place where all are truly equal. Until that happens there will be women making bad decisons because they can. If women want to prove the point that this is not “a male vs. female battle” then they can get on board en masse and prove it by helping to overturn the unequal treatment of men. They will lose many of their perks however. I have been watching for this for a lomg time and so far have not seen any women stepping up to the plate.

  • Denis

    “Men’s rights activists MUST stop pretending this is a male vs. female battle. The enemy is feminism, which is a sick political movement that ran out of reasonable things to do about 40 years ago. We must work with all women who are sick and tired of having to do it all on less money. Second wives are a tremendous asset.”

    Look, get something clear. WOMEN have the power including the power to make bad decisions that have consequnces-oftentimes bad consequences. The first to experience these bad consequences were men. Now they are finally affecting the women. If women are overworked, find men hostile and unchivalrous, and have gotten bored with the cat THAT is a result of THEIR actions. If the dream of “having it all” has turned into a nightmare who is to blame? THEY listened to the false promises of feminists-and made men collateral damage in the process. If we kicked all the feminists out we would still be living with the consequences of the decisions of 10s of millions of women. THEIR decisions. Change the damn laws and make this country a place where all are truly equal. Until that happens there will be women making bad decisons because they can. If women want to prove the point that this is not “a male vs. female battle” then they can get on board en masse and prove it by helping to overturn the unequal treatment of men. They will lose many of their perks however. I have been watching for this for a lomg time and so far have not seen any women stepping up to the plate.

  • Eric Johnson

    Gentlemen,

    I appreciate Mr. Doyle’s comments. I used to think like the author that eventually the Men’s Movement would come together and ‘make a difference.’

    Newsflash- the message is getting out, but not exactly what we had intended. The message is ‘marriage for a gainfully employed, hard working man is very dangerous.’ Get married, have kids and guess what- your wife owns you- lock stock barrel… and soul. Lots of young men are avoiding marriage and I don’t blame them.

    I believe in marriage but I have no idea what to tell my sons…

  • Eric Johnson

    Gentlemen,

    I appreciate Mr. Doyle’s comments. I used to think like the author that eventually the Men’s Movement would come together and ‘make a difference.’

    Newsflash- the message is getting out, but not exactly what we had intended. The message is ‘marriage for a gainfully employed, hard working man is very dangerous.’ Get married, have kids and guess what- your wife owns you- lock stock barrel… and soul. Lots of young men are avoiding marriage and I don’t blame them.

    I believe in marriage but I have no idea what to tell my sons…

  • mruffolo

    Family has been the core of civilization since before Abraham was born. For over 6,000 years men have ruled their family, governments, businesses, schools, and churches.

    It has only been the last forty or so that feminist have introduced their social experiment.

    Historically for the last 6,000 years, there has not been a productive culture run by women.

  • mruffolo

    Family has been the core of civilization since before Abraham was born. For over 6,000 years men have ruled their family, governments, businesses, schools, and churches.

    It has only been the last forty or so that feminist have introduced their social experiment.

    Historically for the last 6,000 years, there has not been a productive culture run by women.

  • David R. Usher

    Eric,

    Contact me privately. I have some things you can tell your son. drusher@swbell.net

  • David R. Usher

    Eric,

    Contact me privately. I have some things you can tell your son. drusher@swbell.net

  • David R. Usher

    Eric,

    Contact me privately. I have some things you can tell your son. drusher@swbell.net

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/category/bullseye/gonzos-bar-go-go-grill The Gonzman

    One thing to remember – Feminism had a good deal of success from women with a lot of disposable time – thanks to their hard-working husbands – being able to devote that time to their cause. A lot of men don’t have that, having to work for a living.

    Not trying to pronounce doom – just pointing out an observable fact.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/category/bullseye/gonzos-bar-go-go-grill The Gonzman

    One thing to remember – Feminism had a good deal of success from women with a lot of disposable time – thanks to their hard-working husbands – being able to devote that time to their cause. A lot of men don’t have that, having to work for a living.

    Not trying to pronounce doom – just pointing out an observable fact.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/category/bullseye/gonzos-bar-go-go-grill The Gonzman

    One thing to remember – Feminism had a good deal of success from women with a lot of disposable time – thanks to their hard-working husbands – being able to devote that time to their cause. A lot of men don’t have that, having to work for a living.

    Not trying to pronounce doom – just pointing out an observable fact.

  • Richard Doyle

    I’ve noted the comments on my thesis regarding Unity in the men’s/fathers’ movement.

    Most are insightful. Some border on the metaphysical, questioning how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. We have been bogged down debating such minor issues for far too long. Dave Usher’s comments were especially sensible, mainly because he has been around long enough to learn the issues; although early on he sounded like some of the present critics. I’ve heard many of these same arguments and suggestions for 40 years, each suggestor operating under the naive assumption his are new and unique.

    One critic objected to my suggestion to consult the book “Save the Males.” This wasn’t a self-serving suggestion. The book is a compilation of many years studying these issues, some heading the Men’s Rights Association (now Men’s Defense Association. See Wikipedia), a consulting service with paid employees (To obtain a booklet describing how to set up such a service, send mailing cost of $1.00 to me at 17854 Lyons St. NE, Forest Lake MN 55025).

    If a newcomer to the movement doesn’t want to spend $16, or $6 for the E-version (both from Lulu.com/mensdefense. BTW, my royalty is $2.00), so be it. He can’t be very interested or dedicated. You can lead a horse to water, but can’t make him drink. I do not intend to debate every guy who, by virtue of a divorce 6 months ago, has all the answers. I’d much prefer to hear from those who’ve been around long enough to learn the real issues, those pioneers with many arrows in their back. My immediate goal is to get the big boys to start working together.

  • Richard Doyle

    I’ve noted the comments on my thesis regarding Unity in the men’s/fathers’ movement.

    Most are insightful. Some border on the metaphysical, questioning how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. We have been bogged down debating such minor issues for far too long. Dave Usher’s comments were especially sensible, mainly because he has been around long enough to learn the issues; although early on he sounded like some of the present critics. I’ve heard many of these same arguments and suggestions for 40 years, each suggestor operating under the naive assumption his are new and unique.

    One critic objected to my suggestion to consult the book “Save the Males.” This wasn’t a self-serving suggestion. The book is a compilation of many years studying these issues, some heading the Men’s Rights Association (now Men’s Defense Association. See Wikipedia), a consulting service with paid employees (To obtain a booklet describing how to set up such a service, send mailing cost of $1.00 to me at 17854 Lyons St. NE, Forest Lake MN 55025).

    If a newcomer to the movement doesn’t want to spend $16, or $6 for the E-version (both from Lulu.com/mensdefense. BTW, my royalty is $2.00), so be it. He can’t be very interested or dedicated. You can lead a horse to water, but can’t make him drink. I do not intend to debate every guy who, by virtue of a divorce 6 months ago, has all the answers. I’d much prefer to hear from those who’ve been around long enough to learn the real issues, those pioneers with many arrows in their back. My immediate goal is to get the big boys to start working together.

  • Richard Doyle

    I’ve noted the comments on my thesis regarding Unity in the men’s/fathers’ movement.

    Most are insightful. Some border on the metaphysical, questioning how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. We have been bogged down debating such minor issues for far too long. Dave Usher’s comments were especially sensible, mainly because he has been around long enough to learn the issues; although early on he sounded like some of the present critics. I’ve heard many of these same arguments and suggestions for 40 years, each suggestor operating under the naive assumption his are new and unique.

    One critic objected to my suggestion to consult the book “Save the Males.” This wasn’t a self-serving suggestion. The book is a compilation of many years studying these issues, some heading the Men’s Rights Association (now Men’s Defense Association. See Wikipedia), a consulting service with paid employees (To obtain a booklet describing how to set up such a service, send mailing cost of $1.00 to me at 17854 Lyons St. NE, Forest Lake MN 55025).

    If a newcomer to the movement doesn’t want to spend $16, or $6 for the E-version (both from Lulu.com/mensdefense. BTW, my royalty is $2.00), so be it. He can’t be very interested or dedicated. You can lead a horse to water, but can’t make him drink. I do not intend to debate every guy who, by virtue of a divorce 6 months ago, has all the answers. I’d much prefer to hear from those who’ve been around long enough to learn the real issues, those pioneers with many arrows in their back. My immediate goal is to get the big boys to start working together.

  • Denis

    Richard-

    I liked reading your colimn here and I’ll get your book.

    I hope you are successful with the “big boys” and getting them to work together.

    I am cautiously optimistic (as opposed to just plain optimistic).

    I know you want to hear from those “who’ve been around a long enough time to learn the real issues” but I cannot help myself to have a response to your above post.

    It may be true that many guys believe naively that their ideas and suggestions are new and unique but that may be because we “little boys” have heard nothing from those more knowledegable and experienced. The feminist onslaught should have been vocally challenged 20 years ago. But there has been only silence during most of this time except for about the last 5 years. I personally have not heard about any of the “big boys” until the last 5 years. Thanks to Mike LaSalle there is a forum here for writers and commentary both by big and little boys. The little boys are doing what has not been done heretofore: raising their voices and expressing their anger and challenges to feminism. In significant numbers. Maybe 20 years ago there was no “political cover” to offer those who opposed feminism. Now the many little boys provide that political cover.

    The big question on everyone’s mind is: “Will the big boys now lead the way?”

  • Denis

    Richard-

    I liked reading your colimn here and I’ll get your book.

    I hope you are successful with the “big boys” and getting them to work together.

    I am cautiously optimistic (as opposed to just plain optimistic).

    I know you want to hear from those “who’ve been around a long enough time to learn the real issues” but I cannot help myself to have a response to your above post.

    It may be true that many guys believe naively that their ideas and suggestions are new and unique but that may be because we “little boys” have heard nothing from those more knowledegable and experienced. The feminist onslaught should have been vocally challenged 20 years ago. But there has been only silence during most of this time except for about the last 5 years. I personally have not heard about any of the “big boys” until the last 5 years. Thanks to Mike LaSalle there is a forum here for writers and commentary both by big and little boys. The little boys are doing what has not been done heretofore: raising their voices and expressing their anger and challenges to feminism. In significant numbers. Maybe 20 years ago there was no “political cover” to offer those who opposed feminism. Now the many little boys provide that political cover.

    The big question on everyone’s mind is: “Will the big boys now lead the way?”

  • Denis

    Richard-

    I liked reading your colimn here and I’ll get your book.

    I hope you are successful with the “big boys” and getting them to work together.

    I am cautiously optimistic (as opposed to just plain optimistic).

    I know you want to hear from those “who’ve been around a long enough time to learn the real issues” but I cannot help myself to have a response to your above post.

    It may be true that many guys believe naively that their ideas and suggestions are new and unique but that may be because we “little boys” have heard nothing from those more knowledegable and experienced. The feminist onslaught should have been vocally challenged 20 years ago. But there has been only silence during most of this time except for about the last 5 years. I personally have not heard about any of the “big boys” until the last 5 years. Thanks to Mike LaSalle there is a forum here for writers and commentary both by big and little boys. The little boys are doing what has not been done heretofore: raising their voices and expressing their anger and challenges to feminism. In significant numbers. Maybe 20 years ago there was no “political cover” to offer those who opposed feminism. Now the many little boys provide that political cover.

    The big question on everyone’s mind is: “Will the big boys now lead the way?”

  • http://www.dontmakehermad.com/ dontmakehermad

    I just bought the book. Now that I’m officially deemed “motivated enough,” I shall soon glean from the book what calls to action the author has made, and graciously post them here. Unless the author considers such a call to activism secret knowledge, of course.

    John Dias
    Founder, DontMakeHerMad.com

  • http://www.dontmakehermad.com/ dontmakehermad

    I just bought the book. Now that I’m officially deemed “motivated enough,” I shall soon glean from the book what calls to action the author has made, and graciously post them here. Unless the author considers such a call to activism secret knowledge, of course.

    John Dias
    Founder, DontMakeHerMad.com

  • http://www.dontmakehermad.com/ dontmakehermad

    I just bought the book. Now that I’m officially deemed “motivated enough,” I shall soon glean from the book what calls to action the author has made, and graciously post them here. Unless the author considers such a call to activism secret knowledge, of course.

    John Dias
    Founder, DontMakeHerMad.com

  • http://www.dontmakehermad.com/ dontmakehermad

    How’s this for activism?

    Today, I wrote a letter to the Washington Times in response to an article that was essentially friendly to individuals in the judicial system who are calling for a further easement on the ability of women to obtain restraining orders. It is activism like this that should begin the increased political activity of the men’s movement to reform the system that discriminates against men.

    Here it is:

    Letter to the Washington Times

    Subject:
    “Feminists advocating suspension of habeas corpus for males in domestic violence cases”

    Dear Editor:

    Regarding “Time to judge the system in domestic violence” (10/6/06, by Adrienne Washington):

    I found it disquieting that Prince George’s County State’s Attorney Glenn F. Ivey is quoted saying that the (already lax) requirements necessary to obtain a restraining order should be further relaxed. Research indicates that only half of restraining orders issued in the U.S. include an allegation of actual violence; the remaining half are merely issued because the supposed “victim” (who hasn’t been victimized) says she is “afraid.” This provides the pretext for throwing a person out of their home, denying contact with (and subsequently custody of) their kids, and devastating damage to their reputation. Restraining orders are issued ex-parte, without the ability for men to defend themselves until 10-14 days later! Shouldn’t an accused man at least have a chance to speak to the judge before such a draconian order is issued, in case the motive for the accusation is rooted more in the accuser’s malice than any legitimate sense of fear? Quoted, from the article: “Mr. Ivey suggested that state legislators may want to reconsider changing the legal standards required for issuing protective orders and to find ways to make the judicial process easier for domestic-violence victims and their advocates.”

    It is now Domestic Violence Awareness Month, and feminists are taking this opportunity to claim that existing laws are inadequate for protection of potential victims. A recent broadcast at Minnesota Public Radio revealed a judge, Mary Louise Klas (Ret.), calling for a new system to be set up to allow the government to rank people as “likely to offend” and therefore police ought to “intervene” (i.e. arrest) before they can commit a crime. Ostensibly, no charges would be leveled, and incarceration with extremely high bail amounts (a violation of the 8th Amendment) would be tactics to efffectively deny accused males the right to know what they’re being charged with (if anything). Feminists are advocating for the (further) removal of the constitutional rights of any male that might so much as “frighten” (or anger) a female.

    Here is a link to that broadcast:
    http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2006/10/03/midmorning1/

    More and more, the supposition that men are the primary perpetrators of domestic violence (and women the primary victims) is used to justify the notion that men are guilty unless they can prove a negative, i.e. prove that they DID NOT do a thing. That is why Web sites like DontMakeHerMad.com exist to encourage men to capture constant surveillance footage of their activities as a method of meeting this insane legal standard.

    Existing research, by the way, strongly indicates that both sexes have an EQUAL tendency to inflict domestic violence, and it’s not just males (or even primarily males). See the media fact sheet of RADAR (Respecting Accuracy in Domestic Abuse Reporting) for further proof on this claim:
    http://www.mediaradar.org/media_fact_sheet.php

    Hopefully, Domestic Violence Awareness Month will be an opportunity to demolish the myth that demonizes men and exalts women in the assignment of blame for abuse.

    Domestic violence is not a gender issue; it is a societal problem that has victims of all ages, genders, and backgrounds.

    John Dias
    Founder, DontMakeHerMad.com

  • http://www.dontmakehermad.com/ dontmakehermad

    How’s this for activism?

    Today, I wrote a letter to the Washington Times in response to an article that was essentially friendly to individuals in the judicial system who are calling for a further easement on the ability of women to obtain restraining orders. It is activism like this that should begin the increased political activity of the men’s movement to reform the system that discriminates against men.

    Here it is:

    Letter to the Washington Times

    Subject:
    “Feminists advocating suspension of habeas corpus for males in domestic violence cases”

    Dear Editor:

    Regarding “Time to judge the system in domestic violence” (10/6/06, by Adrienne Washington):

    I found it disquieting that Prince George’s County State’s Attorney Glenn F. Ivey is quoted saying that the (already lax) requirements necessary to obtain a restraining order should be further relaxed. Research indicates that only half of restraining orders issued in the U.S. include an allegation of actual violence; the remaining half are merely issued because the supposed “victim” (who hasn’t been victimized) says she is “afraid.” This provides the pretext for throwing a person out of their home, denying contact with (and subsequently custody of) their kids, and devastating damage to their reputation. Restraining orders are issued ex-parte, without the ability for men to defend themselves until 10-14 days later! Shouldn’t an accused man at least have a chance to speak to the judge before such a draconian order is issued, in case the motive for the accusation is rooted more in the accuser’s malice than any legitimate sense of fear? Quoted, from the article: “Mr. Ivey suggested that state legislators may want to reconsider changing the legal standards required for issuing protective orders and to find ways to make the judicial process easier for domestic-violence victims and their advocates.”

    It is now Domestic Violence Awareness Month, and feminists are taking this opportunity to claim that existing laws are inadequate for protection of potential victims. A recent broadcast at Minnesota Public Radio revealed a judge, Mary Louise Klas (Ret.), calling for a new system to be set up to allow the government to rank people as “likely to offend” and therefore police ought to “intervene” (i.e. arrest) before they can commit a crime. Ostensibly, no charges would be leveled, and incarceration with extremely high bail amounts (a violation of the 8th Amendment) would be tactics to efffectively deny accused males the right to know what they’re being charged with (if anything). Feminists are advocating for the (further) removal of the constitutional rights of any male that might so much as “frighten” (or anger) a female.

    Here is a link to that broadcast:
    http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2006/10/03/midmorning1/

    More and more, the supposition that men are the primary perpetrators of domestic violence (and women the primary victims) is used to justify the notion that men are guilty unless they can prove a negative, i.e. prove that they DID NOT do a thing. That is why Web sites like DontMakeHerMad.com exist to encourage men to capture constant surveillance footage of their activities as a method of meeting this insane legal standard.

    Existing research, by the way, strongly indicates that both sexes have an EQUAL tendency to inflict domestic violence, and it’s not just males (or even primarily males). See the media fact sheet of RADAR (Respecting Accuracy in Domestic Abuse Reporting) for further proof on this claim:
    http://www.mediaradar.org/media_fact_sheet.php

    Hopefully, Domestic Violence Awareness Month will be an opportunity to demolish the myth that demonizes men and exalts women in the assignment of blame for abuse.

    Domestic violence is not a gender issue; it is a societal problem that has victims of all ages, genders, and backgrounds.

    John Dias
    Founder, DontMakeHerMad.com

  • http://www.dontmakehermad.com/ dontmakehermad

    How’s this for activism?

    Today, I wrote a letter to the Washington Times in response to an article that was essentially friendly to individuals in the judicial system who are calling for a further easement on the ability of women to obtain restraining orders. It is activism like this that should begin the increased political activity of the men’s movement to reform the system that discriminates against men.

    Here it is:

    Letter to the Washington Times

    Subject:
    “Feminists advocating suspension of habeas corpus for males in domestic violence cases”

    Dear Editor:

    Regarding “Time to judge the system in domestic violence” (10/6/06, by Adrienne Washington):

    I found it disquieting that Prince George’s County State’s Attorney Glenn F. Ivey is quoted saying that the (already lax) requirements necessary to obtain a restraining order should be further relaxed. Research indicates that only half of restraining orders issued in the U.S. include an allegation of actual violence; the remaining half are merely issued because the supposed “victim” (who hasn’t been victimized) says she is “afraid.” This provides the pretext for throwing a person out of their home, denying contact with (and subsequently custody of) their kids, and devastating damage to their reputation. Restraining orders are issued ex-parte, without the ability for men to defend themselves until 10-14 days later! Shouldn’t an accused man at least have a chance to speak to the judge before such a draconian order is issued, in case the motive for the accusation is rooted more in the accuser’s malice than any legitimate sense of fear? Quoted, from the article: “Mr. Ivey suggested that state legislators may want to reconsider changing the legal standards required for issuing protective orders and to find ways to make the judicial process easier for domestic-violence victims and their advocates.”

    It is now Domestic Violence Awareness Month, and feminists are taking this opportunity to claim that existing laws are inadequate for protection of potential victims. A recent broadcast at Minnesota Public Radio revealed a judge, Mary Louise Klas (Ret.), calling for a new system to be set up to allow the government to rank people as “likely to offend” and therefore police ought to “intervene” (i.e. arrest) before they can commit a crime. Ostensibly, no charges would be leveled, and incarceration with extremely high bail amounts (a violation of the 8th Amendment) would be tactics to efffectively deny accused males the right to know what they’re being charged with (if anything). Feminists are advocating for the (further) removal of the constitutional rights of any male that might so much as “frighten” (or anger) a female.

    Here is a link to that broadcast:
    http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2006/10/03/midmorning1/

    More and more, the supposition that men are the primary perpetrators of domestic violence (and women the primary victims) is used to justify the notion that men are guilty unless they can prove a negative, i.e. prove that they DID NOT do a thing. That is why Web sites like DontMakeHerMad.com exist to encourage men to capture constant surveillance footage of their activities as a method of meeting this insane legal standard.

    Existing research, by the way, strongly indicates that both sexes have an EQUAL tendency to inflict domestic violence, and it’s not just males (or even primarily males). See the media fact sheet of RADAR (Respecting Accuracy in Domestic Abuse Reporting) for further proof on this claim:
    http://www.mediaradar.org/media_fact_sheet.php

    Hopefully, Domestic Violence Awareness Month will be an opportunity to demolish the myth that demonizes men and exalts women in the assignment of blame for abuse.

    Domestic violence is not a gender issue; it is a societal problem that has victims of all ages, genders, and backgrounds.

    John Dias
    Founder, DontMakeHerMad.com

  • http://www.antipeonage.0catch.com Roger Knight

    Bravo! John Dias. Bravo! A Canadian friend of ours, Jeremy Swanson had written to the London, Ontario authorities and press his commentary on their Police Chief Murray’s statements parroting the party line on domestic violence. he asked me to join him and write my own comment, even though I am an American and expressed concern about being a non-Canadian commenting on internal Canadian policies. I decided the best tack was to criticize what Seattle is doing, which incidentally is exactly what London, Ontario is doing, and suggest a more balanced approach would be healthier for all communities:

  • http://www.antipeonage.0catch.com Roger Knight

    Bravo! John Dias. Bravo! A Canadian friend of ours, Jeremy Swanson had written to the London, Ontario authorities and press his commentary on their Police Chief Murray’s statements parroting the party line on domestic violence. he asked me to join him and write my own comment, even though I am an American and expressed concern about being a non-Canadian commenting on internal Canadian policies. I decided the best tack was to criticize what Seattle is doing, which incidentally is exactly what London, Ontario is doing, and suggest a more balanced approach would be healthier for all communities:

  • http://www.antipeonage.0catch.com Roger Knight

    Bravo! John Dias. Bravo! A Canadian friend of ours, Jeremy Swanson had written to the London, Ontario authorities and press his commentary on their Police Chief Murray’s statements parroting the party line on domestic violence. he asked me to join him and write my own comment, even though I am an American and expressed concern about being a non-Canadian commenting on internal Canadian policies. I decided the best tack was to criticize what Seattle is doing, which incidentally is exactly what London, Ontario is doing, and suggest a more balanced approach would be healthier for all communities:

  • http://www.antipeonage.0catch.com Roger Knight

    From : Roger Knight
    Sent : Friday, October 6, 2006 11:15 AM
    To : feedback@lfpress.com, dbrown@lfpress.com, ooc@police.london.ca, adecicco@london.ca
    CC : Equality-4-Fathers-International@googlegroups.com, swanson@storm.ca
    Subject : Police Chief Frank Murray commentary on domestic violence

    | | | Inbox

    Police Chief Frank Murray of London, Ontario made comments recently about domestic violence that appears to indicate that men only are responsible. While most people observe DV as a two way street and that it takes two to tangle, there is this Power and Control Wheel that paints it up as the efforts of the male party to establish dominance and control over the female party.
    At best the Power and Control Wheel model can only describe a tiny minority of domestic violence situations. More common is the phenomenom of couples getting on each others’ nerves until a breaking point is reached and then bammo!
    One would hope that Chief Murray has a more realistic view of this unfortunate phenomenom.

    We had this problem in Seattle with Chief Norm Stamper. Fortunately he was forced out due to too many foul ups starting with the WTO demonstrators getting into position around the Paramount Theater before the police woke up. However, Chief Kerlikowski is not a vast improvement. Police chiefs tend to be politically correct brown nosers acceptable to the kind of
    liberal urban constituancies elect for mayor and city councilman and they drive the rank and file officers nuts.
    Regular police officers KNOW that women instigate domestic violence roughly half of the time, they KNOW how many women falsely accuse rape when they gave consent or even where there was no sexual contact beyond teasing and flirting, and they KNOW how the restraining order and divorce process works and what it does to society.

    But there are those who either don’t know these things, or are too willing to pretend they do not know these things. As an example:

    I voted for Greg Schmidt, Seattle Police Officer, for Sheriff because I believe that an outsider is what you bring in to top management when there are problems within an organization that need to be fixed. It is why losing football teams bring in new head coaches. I just did not realize that Officer Schmidt was once arrested, prosecuted, and ACQUITTED of domestic violence against his first wife. That the experience was a real eye-opener for him is an understatement! He confirms what we all know, that in domestic relations and domestic violence cases, there is a profound gender bias in the law enforcement community, court system, and bureaucracy against men that leads to false accusations being believed and innocent men forced to defend themselves at trial or cop a plea to a crime they did not commit. Sergeant David Urquhart actually told a radio audience that he would “feel funny” arresting a woman in a DV case where the level of injuries were similar. So here is the message for us guys: Your wife or girlfriend attacks you with a knife. Indianapolis Colts cornerback Nick Harper has experienced this. No excuse for that! You successfully defend yourself and therefore live to be arrested for DV! Why? Because a successful self defense against an assault with a deadly weapon might involve actually hurting the assailant!
    Imagine the uproar if Sergeant Urquhart admitted to “feeling funny” about arresting a white guy involved in a fight with a black guy where the injuries are similar. News flash to Sergeant Urquhart: The standard in assault cases is not the relative level of injuries or the relative size of the parties, the standard is who is the aggressor. Chapter 9A.16 RCW provides that private citizens may use force in self defense against a crime. Even big people when they are assaulted by little people, even big men who are assaulted by little women. It is not the size of the dog in the fight; it is the size of the fight in the dog. Adrenalin is an amazing strength enhancer. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. While there is no excuse for domestic violence, an angry person does not need an excuse! With gender bias in the system, an angry woman can force her man to choose between being taken to the emergency room (or morgue) or to the county jail.

    Why is it we are not as willing to say that there is no excuse for violating the Constitution?

    Perhaps it is the training. The current King County Publication, Domestic and Dating Violence, an information and resource handbook Metropolitan King County Council April 2002, includes on its page i this amazing whopper:
    According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics (1998), 85% of domestic violence victims are women. This statistic does not suggest that all men are batterers, but that most batterers are men. Therefore though we recognize that there are female batterers and male victims, for statistical accuracy and ease of reading, we refer to batterers as men and victims as women in this handbook.

    First of all, statistics on domestic violence prevalence range from 45% to 95% of the victims being female. Whom do we believe? It is like generating a statistic as to what varieties of sex people fantasize about. We cannot know the numbers because most people do not reveal all of their fantasies, even to (especially to) their intimate partners! As many incidents of domestic violence are not reported, for the extremely good reason that inviting government into one’s private life is not always the wisest policy, we cannot know the precise percentage of which incidents are female aggressive and which are male aggressive! Or a combination of both, which is what most people believe, political correctness notwithstanding! Second, and this is quite obvious and self explanatory, referring to batterers as men and victims as women is EXTREMELY PREJUDICIAL! When such presumption is infused into the criminal justice system, those male victims of female batterers are likely to be the ones arrested and charged, and they have good reason not to seek help! Once arrested and charged, we all know that police and prosecutors are loathe to admit they’re wrong and will force such defendants to either go to trial and take their chances with the jury (with the prosecutor peremptorily challenging all prospective jurors who indicate that they have brains) or cop a plea to a crime they did not commit.

    One page 1 is the highly criticized Power and Control Wheel.

    However, there is one part that does have the ring of truth: The entire Child Support Crusade is one big Power and Control Trip!
    But then you already know that!

    The primary problem with the Power and Control Wheel is that is can only apply to those few situations where one party to a relationship really is trying to dominate and control the other party! Even then, it cannot be all that accurate. It does not apply to those situations where the domestic violence arises in the context of an addiction to gambling, alcohol, or drugs. It does not apply to those situations where the domestic violence is a two-way street, which is what most people think most domestic violence situations are. (Based on their own life experience, believing their lying eyes, and not subscribing to political correctness or taking training seminars.) It does not apply to the situation where the parties had a tranquil relationship but blew up in each other’s faces based on a sudden acute situation. Such as adultery or suspected adultery. Nor does it apply to the common situation where the parties simply get on each other’s nerves. (You left the toilet seat up, again! You are always watching football! You are always watching crummy soap operas! Honey, can you please do something with all of this stuff? There is no place on the floor to put my feet.)
    And in those few situations where the Power and Control Wheel can apply, any domestic violence might be on the part of the party defending himself or herself from being controlled! As Lorena Bobbit claimed.
    Of course, the Power and Control Wheel contains a strong gender bias in that it asserts it is the man who is using “male privilege” and is also using economic abuse, coercion and threats, emotional abuse, isolation, intimidation, children, and sexual abuse to impose his power and control over her. It also claims that men minimize, deny, and blame. So if you are one of those male victims of female batterers, your claim to be such is covered by the part of the Power and Control Wheel about minimizing, denying, and blaming!

    But then again, what is the Child Support Crusade if not the use of economic abuse, coercion and threats, emotional abuse, isolation, intimidation, children, and female privilege to gain power and control over a vast number of previously free Americans?

    On page 3 of Domestic and Dating Violence is this assertion:
    Fact: In domestic violence assaults one partner is beating, intimidating, and terrorizing the other. It is not mutual combat. It is about one person dominating and controlling the other.

    Sometimes this is true, and sometimes it is not. Sometimes it is mutual combat. And sometimes it is a one time blow-up. And sometimes alcohol, drugs, gambling and spending addictions, and/or psychological problems are the cause of domestic violence. There are lots of things that can cause it!

    Page 3 goes on to say:
    Without intervention the violent behavior targeted and focused toward the victim may escalate.

    Or it may subside. Like the price of a share of stock, it will go up, unless it remains the same or goes down.

    More from page 3:
    It is useful that victims, batterers, and witnesses to domestic violence are aware of the continuums that distinguish abuse: psychological, physical, sexual, and social/environmental. Though they have varying consequences, each form of abuse stems from the desire to dominate a partner or other household members.

    Or maybe it does not. Rather than view the facts of a domestic violence situation as an intelligent, rational, and thoughtful person with your own view of the world, you should look at it through a government mandated prism, especially if you are a government employee such as cop, social worker, deputy prosecutor, public defender, court commissioner, or judge.

    I suppose one reason so many domestic violence prosecutions end in acquittal is that those damn jurors did not read the Handbook!

    Notice how “Sexual jokes and demeaning gender remarks” are listed in the same continuum as “Rape with murder”.

    Please. I refuse to rank Jay Leno with Ted Bundy!

    Read the rest of Domestic and Dating Violence for the propaganda YOUR taxes are paying for.
    While there is no excuse for domestic violence, neither is there any excuse for what http://www.fireyourwife.com lists as advice being given to wives!

    This is the commentary I publish on my website at
    http://www.antipeonage.0catch.com including the page
    http://www.antipeonage.0catch.com/justicefilescountiesking.htm
    Over at http://www.antipeonage.0catch.com/justicefilesdshsseattle.htm I report this amazing set of facts about one of our support enforcers:
    Jennifer Jean Worley, Auburn, Washington 98001, white female, 5’5″ 180 pounds, green eyes brown hair DOB June 17, 1971 Voted on November 2, 2004 Has not voted since. King County No. 96-1-05422-1 defendant criminal; King County No. 97-2-09519-1 petitioner domestic violence; King County No. 96-9-27919-1 judgment debtor criminal paid;
    Here is the scooperoo on this lady: In No. 96-1-05422-1 she was initially charged with Assault 2, a felony, assault with a deadly weapon, specifically a knife, and she copped a plea to the reduced charge of Assault 4, domestic violence, a misdemeanor. 12 month suspended sentence. 3 days of imprisonment already served. She keeps her right to vote, but as this case is post Brady Bill and after Washington’s incredibly multi-subject Violence Reduction Act of 1994, her right to keep and bear arms is gone. The Certificate of Probable Cause filed with the Information alleges: She was living with the father of her child and the child, a nice evening at home. Started screaming at the father, accusing him of neglecting their child. The father suggested that she was setting a poor example for the child by yelling at him. This prompted the more appropriate behavior of physically assaulting the father while he sat on the couch, hitting and scratching him. The father, faced with a choice between risking the county jail or the county morgue, chose to risk the morgue. Rather than counter-attack in self defense, he retreated through the kitchen and dining room, whereupon dear sweet Jennifer Jean made use of the kitchen utensils. She threw several knives at the father screaming: “I’m gonna kill ya!” One knife punctured the father’s left forearm. Jenny Jean picked up a kitchen pot and swung it at her man, then threw it at him hitting his left elbow, bruising it. The father continued his retreat and Jenny followed him ripping his shirt. This father tried to calm Jenny Jean by handing her their now screaming child. As this did not work, he handed the child off to his brother, the kid’s uncle. Upon contact with the police, Jenny Jean admitted throwing the knives but denied stabbing her man with them. She admitted the scratching and the throwing of the pot at him. Deputy Prosecutor summed up by declaring that Jenny Jean poses a threat to the community as evidenced by her lack of control in the presence of her child and her use of multiple weapons.
    While still under probation for her Assault 4 conviction, Jenny Jean had the AUDACITY to petition for a restraining order against this same man she was CONVICTED of ASSAULTING!! In her petition in No. 97-2-09519-1 she alleged that he was arrested for domestic violence by the Kent Police Department. We can see how this happens: she throws a temper tantrum and he gets arrested for it! The other really TERRIBLE thing he did was that he kept visiting his child at the daycare center!!! Imagine that!! A father looking after his child at the daycare center!!! Next thing you know he will be taking the kid fishing and to ball games and be wanting to talk to his school teachers. He might get in their faces if they try to make the kid take Ritalin! We can’t have that! The temporary order imposed a 300 foot exclusion radius, including his child’s day care center. The matter came to hearing before Commissioner Harry Richard Slusher, both parties present and examined by Commissioner Slusher. It is impossible for me to believe that the man completely forgot about the violent incident and the resulting conviction of this woman for assaulting him. Nevertheless, Commissioner Slusher imposed a one year restraining order, increasing the exclusion radius to 500 feet, with no visitation with his child!! The only redeeming quality of this order is that there is a notation that it is subject to change in a pending divorce or paternity action. While most paternity actions are brought with intent to nail the guy for child support, sometimes the father winds up with custody or at least visitation or shared parenting rights. Unfortunately such results are too few and too far between.
    To those who do not believe there is gender bias in the system, please explain these results. The criminal prosecutors did the right thing, holding a violent woman accountable for her behavior in the presence of her child and against the child’s father. But Court Commissioner Slusher ignored these facts and stomped on the father’s constitutional rights! And now this violent woman works for the support enforcers.

    I would suggest a more realistic and balanced approach to domestic violence and to family law in general than that shown here. Such an approach would be healthier for London, Ontario Seattle, Washington and all other communities.

  • http://www.antipeonage.0catch.com Roger Knight

    From : Roger Knight
    Sent : Friday, October 6, 2006 11:15 AM
    To : feedback@lfpress.com, dbrown@lfpress.com, ooc@police.london.ca, adecicco@london.ca
    CC : Equality-4-Fathers-International@googlegroups.com, swanson@storm.ca
    Subject : Police Chief Frank Murray commentary on domestic violence

    | | | Inbox

    Police Chief Frank Murray of London, Ontario made comments recently about domestic violence that appears to indicate that men only are responsible. While most people observe DV as a two way street and that it takes two to tangle, there is this Power and Control Wheel that paints it up as the efforts of the male party to establish dominance and control over the female party.
    At best the Power and Control Wheel model can only describe a tiny minority of domestic violence situations. More common is the phenomenom of couples getting on each others’ nerves until a breaking point is reached and then bammo!
    One would hope that Chief Murray has a more realistic view of this unfortunate phenomenom.

    We had this problem in Seattle with Chief Norm Stamper. Fortunately he was forced out due to too many foul ups starting with the WTO demonstrators getting into position around the Paramount Theater before the police woke up. However, Chief Kerlikowski is not a vast improvement. Police chiefs tend to be politically correct brown nosers acceptable to the kind of
    liberal urban constituancies elect for mayor and city councilman and they drive the rank and file officers nuts.
    Regular police officers KNOW that women instigate domestic violence roughly half of the time, they KNOW how many women falsely accuse rape when they gave consent or even where there was no sexual contact beyond teasing and flirting, and they KNOW how the restraining order and divorce process works and what it does to society.

    But there are those who either don’t know these things, or are too willing to pretend they do not know these things. As an example:

    I voted for Greg Schmidt, Seattle Police Officer, for Sheriff because I believe that an outsider is what you bring in to top management when there are problems within an organization that need to be fixed. It is why losing football teams bring in new head coaches. I just did not realize that Officer Schmidt was once arrested, prosecuted, and ACQUITTED of domestic violence against his first wife. That the experience was a real eye-opener for him is an understatement! He confirms what we all know, that in domestic relations and domestic violence cases, there is a profound gender bias in the law enforcement community, court system, and bureaucracy against men that leads to false accusations being believed and innocent men forced to defend themselves at trial or cop a plea to a crime they did not commit. Sergeant David Urquhart actually told a radio audience that he would “feel funny” arresting a woman in a DV case where the level of injuries were similar. So here is the message for us guys: Your wife or girlfriend attacks you with a knife. Indianapolis Colts cornerback Nick Harper has experienced this. No excuse for that! You successfully defend yourself and therefore live to be arrested for DV! Why? Because a successful self defense against an assault with a deadly weapon might involve actually hurting the assailant!
    Imagine the uproar if Sergeant Urquhart admitted to “feeling funny” about arresting a white guy involved in a fight with a black guy where the injuries are similar. News flash to Sergeant Urquhart: The standard in assault cases is not the relative level of injuries or the relative size of the parties, the standard is who is the aggressor. Chapter 9A.16 RCW provides that private citizens may use force in self defense against a crime. Even big people when they are assaulted by little people, even big men who are assaulted by little women. It is not the size of the dog in the fight; it is the size of the fight in the dog. Adrenalin is an amazing strength enhancer. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. While there is no excuse for domestic violence, an angry person does not need an excuse! With gender bias in the system, an angry woman can force her man to choose between being taken to the emergency room (or morgue) or to the county jail.

    Why is it we are not as willing to say that there is no excuse for violating the Constitution?

    Perhaps it is the training. The current King County Publication, Domestic and Dating Violence, an information and resource handbook Metropolitan King County Council April 2002, includes on its page i this amazing whopper:
    According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics (1998), 85% of domestic violence victims are women. This statistic does not suggest that all men are batterers, but that most batterers are men. Therefore though we recognize that there are female batterers and male victims, for statistical accuracy and ease of reading, we refer to batterers as men and victims as women in this handbook.

    First of all, statistics on domestic violence prevalence range from 45% to 95% of the victims being female. Whom do we believe? It is like generating a statistic as to what varieties of sex people fantasize about. We cannot know the numbers because most people do not reveal all of their fantasies, even to (especially to) their intimate partners! As many incidents of domestic violence are not reported, for the extremely good reason that inviting government into one’s private life is not always the wisest policy, we cannot know the precise percentage of which incidents are female aggressive and which are male aggressive! Or a combination of both, which is what most people believe, political correctness notwithstanding! Second, and this is quite obvious and self explanatory, referring to batterers as men and victims as women is EXTREMELY PREJUDICIAL! When such presumption is infused into the criminal justice system, those male victims of female batterers are likely to be the ones arrested and charged, and they have good reason not to seek help! Once arrested and charged, we all know that police and prosecutors are loathe to admit they’re wrong and will force such defendants to either go to trial and take their chances with the jury (with the prosecutor peremptorily challenging all prospective jurors who indicate that they have brains) or cop a plea to a crime they did not commit.

    One page 1 is the highly criticized Power and Control Wheel.

    However, there is one part that does have the ring of truth: The entire Child Support Crusade is one big Power and Control Trip!
    But then you already know that!

    The primary problem with the Power and Control Wheel is that is can only apply to those few situations where one party to a relationship really is trying to dominate and control the other party! Even then, it cannot be all that accurate. It does not apply to those situations where the domestic violence arises in the context of an addiction to gambling, alcohol, or drugs. It does not apply to those situations where the domestic violence is a two-way street, which is what most people think most domestic violence situations are. (Based on their own life experience, believing their lying eyes, and not subscribing to political correctness or taking training seminars.) It does not apply to the situation where the parties had a tranquil relationship but blew up in each other’s faces based on a sudden acute situation. Such as adultery or suspected adultery. Nor does it apply to the common situation where the parties simply get on each other’s nerves. (You left the toilet seat up, again! You are always watching football! You are always watching crummy soap operas! Honey, can you please do something with all of this stuff? There is no place on the floor to put my feet.)
    And in those few situations where the Power and Control Wheel can apply, any domestic violence might be on the part of the party defending himself or herself from being controlled! As Lorena Bobbit claimed.
    Of course, the Power and Control Wheel contains a strong gender bias in that it asserts it is the man who is using “male privilege” and is also using economic abuse, coercion and threats, emotional abuse, isolation, intimidation, children, and sexual abuse to impose his power and control over her. It also claims that men minimize, deny, and blame. So if you are one of those male victims of female batterers, your claim to be such is covered by the part of the Power and Control Wheel about minimizing, denying, and blaming!

    But then again, what is the Child Support Crusade if not the use of economic abuse, coercion and threats, emotional abuse, isolation, intimidation, children, and female privilege to gain power and control over a vast number of previously free Americans?

    On page 3 of Domestic and Dating Violence is this assertion:
    Fact: In domestic violence assaults one partner is beating, intimidating, and terrorizing the other. It is not mutual combat. It is about one person dominating and controlling the other.

    Sometimes this is true, and sometimes it is not. Sometimes it is mutual combat. And sometimes it is a one time blow-up. And sometimes alcohol, drugs, gambling and spending addictions, and/or psychological problems are the cause of domestic violence. There are lots of things that can cause it!

    Page 3 goes on to say:
    Without intervention the violent behavior targeted and focused toward the victim may escalate.

    Or it may subside. Like the price of a share of stock, it will go up, unless it remains the same or goes down.

    More from page 3:
    It is useful that victims, batterers, and witnesses to domestic violence are aware of the continuums that distinguish abuse: psychological, physical, sexual, and social/environmental. Though they have varying consequences, each form of abuse stems from the desire to dominate a partner or other household members.

    Or maybe it does not. Rather than view the facts of a domestic violence situation as an intelligent, rational, and thoughtful person with your own view of the world, you should look at it through a government mandated prism, especially if you are a government employee such as cop, social worker, deputy prosecutor, public defender, court commissioner, or judge.

    I suppose one reason so many domestic violence prosecutions end in acquittal is that those damn jurors did not read the Handbook!

    Notice how “Sexual jokes and demeaning gender remarks” are listed in the same continuum as “Rape with murder”.

    Please. I refuse to rank Jay Leno with Ted Bundy!

    Read the rest of Domestic and Dating Violence for the propaganda YOUR taxes are paying for.
    While there is no excuse for domestic violence, neither is there any excuse for what http://www.fireyourwife.com lists as advice being given to wives!

    This is the commentary I publish on my website at
    http://www.antipeonage.0catch.com including the page
    http://www.antipeonage.0catch.com/justicefilescountiesking.htm
    Over at http://www.antipeonage.0catch.com/justicefilesdshsseattle.htm I report this amazing set of facts about one of our support enforcers:
    Jennifer Jean Worley, Auburn, Washington 98001, white female, 5’5″ 180 pounds, green eyes brown hair DOB June 17, 1971 Voted on November 2, 2004 Has not voted since. King County No. 96-1-05422-1 defendant criminal; King County No. 97-2-09519-1 petitioner domestic violence; King County No. 96-9-27919-1 judgment debtor criminal paid;
    Here is the scooperoo on this lady: In No. 96-1-05422-1 she was initially charged with Assault 2, a felony, assault with a deadly weapon, specifically a knife, and she copped a plea to the reduced charge of Assault 4, domestic violence, a misdemeanor. 12 month suspended sentence. 3 days of imprisonment already served. She keeps her right to vote, but as this case is post Brady Bill and after Washington’s incredibly multi-subject Violence Reduction Act of 1994, her right to keep and bear arms is gone. The Certificate of Probable Cause filed with the Information alleges: She was living with the father of her child and the child, a nice evening at home. Started screaming at the father, accusing him of neglecting their child. The father suggested that she was setting a poor example for the child by yelling at him. This prompted the more appropriate behavior of physically assaulting the father while he sat on the couch, hitting and scratching him. The father, faced with a choice between risking the county jail or the county morgue, chose to risk the morgue. Rather than counter-attack in self defense, he retreated through the kitchen and dining room, whereupon dear sweet Jennifer Jean made use of the kitchen utensils. She threw several knives at the father screaming: “I’m gonna kill ya!” One knife punctured the father’s left forearm. Jenny Jean picked up a kitchen pot and swung it at her man, then threw it at him hitting his left elbow, bruising it. The father continued his retreat and Jenny followed him ripping his shirt. This father tried to calm Jenny Jean by handing her their now screaming child. As this did not work, he handed the child off to his brother, the kid’s uncle. Upon contact with the police, Jenny Jean admitted throwing the knives but denied stabbing her man with them. She admitted the scratching and the throwing of the pot at him. Deputy Prosecutor summed up by declaring that Jenny Jean poses a threat to the community as evidenced by her lack of control in the presence of her child and her use of multiple weapons.
    While still under probation for her Assault 4 conviction, Jenny Jean had the AUDACITY to petition for a restraining order against this same man she was CONVICTED of ASSAULTING!! In her petition in No. 97-2-09519-1 she alleged that he was arrested for domestic violence by the Kent Police Department. We can see how this happens: she throws a temper tantrum and he gets arrested for it! The other really TERRIBLE thing he did was that he kept visiting his child at the daycare center!!! Imagine that!! A father looking after his child at the daycare center!!! Next thing you know he will be taking the kid fishing and to ball games and be wanting to talk to his school teachers. He might get in their faces if they try to make the kid take Ritalin! We can’t have that! The temporary order imposed a 300 foot exclusion radius, including his child’s day care center. The matter came to hearing before Commissioner Harry Richard Slusher, both parties present and examined by Commissioner Slusher. It is impossible for me to believe that the man completely forgot about the violent incident and the resulting conviction of this woman for assaulting him. Nevertheless, Commissioner Slusher imposed a one year restraining order, increasing the exclusion radius to 500 feet, with no visitation with his child!! The only redeeming quality of this order is that there is a notation that it is subject to change in a pending divorce or paternity action. While most paternity actions are brought with intent to nail the guy for child support, sometimes the father winds up with custody or at least visitation or shared parenting rights. Unfortunately such results are too few and too far between.
    To those who do not believe there is gender bias in the system, please explain these results. The criminal prosecutors did the right thing, holding a violent woman accountable for her behavior in the presence of her child and against the child’s father. But Court Commissioner Slusher ignored these facts and stomped on the father’s constitutional rights! And now this violent woman works for the support enforcers.

    I would suggest a more realistic and balanced approach to domestic violence and to family law in general than that shown here. Such an approach would be healthier for London, Ontario Seattle, Washington and all other communities.

  • http://www.antipeonage.0catch.com Roger Knight

    From : Roger Knight
    Sent : Friday, October 6, 2006 11:15 AM
    To : feedback@lfpress.com, dbrown@lfpress.com, ooc@police.london.ca, adecicco@london.ca
    CC : Equality-4-Fathers-International@googlegroups.com, swanson@storm.ca
    Subject : Police Chief Frank Murray commentary on domestic violence

    | | | Inbox

    Police Chief Frank Murray of London, Ontario made comments recently about domestic violence that appears to indicate that men only are responsible. While most people observe DV as a two way street and that it takes two to tangle, there is this Power and Control Wheel that paints it up as the efforts of the male party to establish dominance and control over the female party.
    At best the Power and Control Wheel model can only describe a tiny minority of domestic violence situations. More common is the phenomenom of couples getting on each others’ nerves until a breaking point is reached and then bammo!
    One would hope that Chief Murray has a more realistic view of this unfortunate phenomenom.

    We had this problem in Seattle with Chief Norm Stamper. Fortunately he was forced out due to too many foul ups starting with the WTO demonstrators getting into position around the Paramount Theater before the police woke up. However, Chief Kerlikowski is not a vast improvement. Police chiefs tend to be politically correct brown nosers acceptable to the kind of
    liberal urban constituancies elect for mayor and city councilman and they drive the rank and file officers nuts.
    Regular police officers KNOW that women instigate domestic violence roughly half of the time, they KNOW how many women falsely accuse rape when they gave consent or even where there was no sexual contact beyond teasing and flirting, and they KNOW how the restraining order and divorce process works and what it does to society.

    But there are those who either don’t know these things, or are too willing to pretend they do not know these things. As an example:

    I voted for Greg Schmidt, Seattle Police Officer, for Sheriff because I believe that an outsider is what you bring in to top management when there are problems within an organization that need to be fixed. It is why losing football teams bring in new head coaches. I just did not realize that Officer Schmidt was once arrested, prosecuted, and ACQUITTED of domestic violence against his first wife. That the experience was a real eye-opener for him is an understatement! He confirms what we all know, that in domestic relations and domestic violence cases, there is a profound gender bias in the law enforcement community, court system, and bureaucracy against men that leads to false accusations being believed and innocent men forced to defend themselves at trial or cop a plea to a crime they did not commit. Sergeant David Urquhart actually told a radio audience that he would “feel funny” arresting a woman in a DV case where the level of injuries were similar. So here is the message for us guys: Your wife or girlfriend attacks you with a knife. Indianapolis Colts cornerback Nick Harper has experienced this. No excuse for that! You successfully defend yourself and therefore live to be arrested for DV! Why? Because a successful self defense against an assault with a deadly weapon might involve actually hurting the assailant!
    Imagine the uproar if Sergeant Urquhart admitted to “feeling funny” about arresting a white guy involved in a fight with a black guy where the injuries are similar. News flash to Sergeant Urquhart: The standard in assault cases is not the relative level of injuries or the relative size of the parties, the standard is who is the aggressor. Chapter 9A.16 RCW provides that private citizens may use force in self defense against a crime. Even big people when they are assaulted by little people, even big men who are assaulted by little women. It is not the size of the dog in the fight; it is the size of the fight in the dog. Adrenalin is an amazing strength enhancer. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. While there is no excuse for domestic violence, an angry person does not need an excuse! With gender bias in the system, an angry woman can force her man to choose between being taken to the emergency room (or morgue) or to the county jail.

    Why is it we are not as willing to say that there is no excuse for violating the Constitution?

    Perhaps it is the training. The current King County Publication, Domestic and Dating Violence, an information and resource handbook Metropolitan King County Council April 2002, includes on its page i this amazing whopper:
    According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics (1998), 85% of domestic violence victims are women. This statistic does not suggest that all men are batterers, but that most batterers are men. Therefore though we recognize that there are female batterers and male victims, for statistical accuracy and ease of reading, we refer to batterers as men and victims as women in this handbook.

    First of all, statistics on domestic violence prevalence range from 45% to 95% of the victims being female. Whom do we believe? It is like generating a statistic as to what varieties of sex people fantasize about. We cannot know the numbers because most people do not reveal all of their fantasies, even to (especially to) their intimate partners! As many incidents of domestic violence are not reported, for the extremely good reason that inviting government into one’s private life is not always the wisest policy, we cannot know the precise percentage of which incidents are female aggressive and which are male aggressive! Or a combination of both, which is what most people believe, political correctness notwithstanding! Second, and this is quite obvious and self explanatory, referring to batterers as men and victims as women is EXTREMELY PREJUDICIAL! When such presumption is infused into the criminal justice system, those male victims of female batterers are likely to be the ones arrested and charged, and they have good reason not to seek help! Once arrested and charged, we all know that police and prosecutors are loathe to admit they’re wrong and will force such defendants to either go to trial and take their chances with the jury (with the prosecutor peremptorily challenging all prospective jurors who indicate that they have brains) or cop a plea to a crime they did not commit.

    One page 1 is the highly criticized Power and Control Wheel.

    However, there is one part that does have the ring of truth: The entire Child Support Crusade is one big Power and Control Trip!
    But then you already know that!

    The primary problem with the Power and Control Wheel is that is can only apply to those few situations where one party to a relationship really is trying to dominate and control the other party! Even then, it cannot be all that accurate. It does not apply to those situations where the domestic violence arises in the context of an addiction to gambling, alcohol, or drugs. It does not apply to those situations where the domestic violence is a two-way street, which is what most people think most domestic violence situations are. (Based on their own life experience, believing their lying eyes, and not subscribing to political correctness or taking training seminars.) It does not apply to the situation where the parties had a tranquil relationship but blew up in each other’s faces based on a sudden acute situation. Such as adultery or suspected adultery. Nor does it apply to the common situation where the parties simply get on each other’s nerves. (You left the toilet seat up, again! You are always watching football! You are always watching crummy soap operas! Honey, can you please do something with all of this stuff? There is no place on the floor to put my feet.)
    And in those few situations where the Power and Control Wheel can apply, any domestic violence might be on the part of the party defending himself or herself from being controlled! As Lorena Bobbit claimed.
    Of course, the Power and Control Wheel contains a strong gender bias in that it asserts it is the man who is using “male privilege” and is also using economic abuse, coercion and threats, emotional abuse, isolation, intimidation, children, and sexual abuse to impose his power and control over her. It also claims that men minimize, deny, and blame. So if you are one of those male victims of female batterers, your claim to be such is covered by the part of the Power and Control Wheel about minimizing, denying, and blaming!

    But then again, what is the Child Support Crusade if not the use of economic abuse, coercion and threats, emotional abuse, isolation, intimidation, children, and female privilege to gain power and control over a vast number of previously free Americans?

    On page 3 of Domestic and Dating Violence is this assertion:
    Fact: In domestic violence assaults one partner is beating, intimidating, and terrorizing the other. It is not mutual combat. It is about one person dominating and controlling the other.

    Sometimes this is true, and sometimes it is not. Sometimes it is mutual combat. And sometimes it is a one time blow-up. And sometimes alcohol, drugs, gambling and spending addictions, and/or psychological problems are the cause of domestic violence. There are lots of things that can cause it!

    Page 3 goes on to say:
    Without intervention the violent behavior targeted and focused toward the victim may escalate.

    Or it may subside. Like the price of a share of stock, it will go up, unless it remains the same or goes down.

    More from page 3:
    It is useful that victims, batterers, and witnesses to domestic violence are aware of the continuums that distinguish abuse: psychological, physical, sexual, and social/environmental. Though they have varying consequences, each form of abuse stems from the desire to dominate a partner or other household members.

    Or maybe it does not. Rather than view the facts of a domestic violence situation as an intelligent, rational, and thoughtful person with your own view of the world, you should look at it through a government mandated prism, especially if you are a government employee such as cop, social worker, deputy prosecutor, public defender, court commissioner, or judge.

    I suppose one reason so many domestic violence prosecutions end in acquittal is that those damn jurors did not read the Handbook!

    Notice how “Sexual jokes and demeaning gender remarks” are listed in the same continuum as “Rape with murder”.

    Please. I refuse to rank Jay Leno with Ted Bundy!

    Read the rest of Domestic and Dating Violence for the propaganda YOUR taxes are paying for.
    While there is no excuse for domestic violence, neither is there any excuse for what http://www.fireyourwife.com lists as advice being given to wives!

    This is the commentary I publish on my website at
    http://www.antipeonage.0catch.com including the page
    http://www.antipeonage.0catch.com/justicefilescountiesking.htm
    Over at http://www.antipeonage.0catch.com/justicefilesdshsseattle.htm I report this amazing set of facts about one of our support enforcers:
    Jennifer Jean Worley, Auburn, Washington 98001, white female, 5’5″ 180 pounds, green eyes brown hair DOB June 17, 1971 Voted on November 2, 2004 Has not voted since. King County No. 96-1-05422-1 defendant criminal; King County No. 97-2-09519-1 petitioner domestic violence; King County No. 96-9-27919-1 judgment debtor criminal paid;
    Here is the scooperoo on this lady: In No. 96-1-05422-1 she was initially charged with Assault 2, a felony, assault with a deadly weapon, specifically a knife, and she copped a plea to the reduced charge of Assault 4, domestic violence, a misdemeanor. 12 month suspended sentence. 3 days of imprisonment already served. She keeps her right to vote, but as this case is post Brady Bill and after Washington’s incredibly multi-subject Violence Reduction Act of 1994, her right to keep and bear arms is gone. The Certificate of Probable Cause filed with the Information alleges: She was living with the father of her child and the child, a nice evening at home. Started screaming at the father, accusing him of neglecting their child. The father suggested that she was setting a poor example for the child by yelling at him. This prompted the more appropriate behavior of physically assaulting the father while he sat on the couch, hitting and scratching him. The father, faced with a choice between risking the county jail or the county morgue, chose to risk the morgue. Rather than counter-attack in self defense, he retreated through the kitchen and dining room, whereupon dear sweet Jennifer Jean made use of the kitchen utensils. She threw several knives at the father screaming: “I’m gonna kill ya!” One knife punctured the father’s left forearm. Jenny Jean picked up a kitchen pot and swung it at her man, then threw it at him hitting his left elbow, bruising it. The father continued his retreat and Jenny followed him ripping his shirt. This father tried to calm Jenny Jean by handing her their now screaming child. As this did not work, he handed the child off to his brother, the kid’s uncle. Upon contact with the police, Jenny Jean admitted throwing the knives but denied stabbing her man with them. She admitted the scratching and the throwing of the pot at him. Deputy Prosecutor summed up by declaring that Jenny Jean poses a threat to the community as evidenced by her lack of control in the presence of her child and her use of multiple weapons.
    While still under probation for her Assault 4 conviction, Jenny Jean had the AUDACITY to petition for a restraining order against this same man she was CONVICTED of ASSAULTING!! In her petition in No. 97-2-09519-1 she alleged that he was arrested for domestic violence by the Kent Police Department. We can see how this happens: she throws a temper tantrum and he gets arrested for it! The other really TERRIBLE thing he did was that he kept visiting his child at the daycare center!!! Imagine that!! A father looking after his child at the daycare center!!! Next thing you know he will be taking the kid fishing and to ball games and be wanting to talk to his school teachers. He might get in their faces if they try to make the kid take Ritalin! We can’t have that! The temporary order imposed a 300 foot exclusion radius, including his child’s day care center. The matter came to hearing before Commissioner Harry Richard Slusher, both parties present and examined by Commissioner Slusher. It is impossible for me to believe that the man completely forgot about the violent incident and the resulting conviction of this woman for assaulting him. Nevertheless, Commissioner Slusher imposed a one year restraining order, increasing the exclusion radius to 500 feet, with no visitation with his child!! The only redeeming quality of this order is that there is a notation that it is subject to change in a pending divorce or paternity action. While most paternity actions are brought with intent to nail the guy for child support, sometimes the father winds up with custody or at least visitation or shared parenting rights. Unfortunately such results are too few and too far between.
    To those who do not believe there is gender bias in the system, please explain these results. The criminal prosecutors did the right thing, holding a violent woman accountable for her behavior in the presence of her child and against the child’s father. But Court Commissioner Slusher ignored these facts and stomped on the father’s constitutional rights! And now this violent woman works for the support enforcers.

    I would suggest a more realistic and balanced approach to domestic violence and to family law in general than that shown here. Such an approach would be healthier for London, Ontario Seattle, Washington and all other communities.

  • David R. Usher

    All,

    As one who worked with Rich Doyle for many years (I have been very active for about 19 years), I can say that Rich’s book is a “must read” for everyone who has been in the movement for less than 10 years.

    Our future rests in not repeating the mistakes of the past. If you want a shot in the arm, and a wiser approach, Rich’s book will save you a lot of time learning things the hard way.

  • David R. Usher

    All,

    As one who worked with Rich Doyle for many years (I have been very active for about 19 years), I can say that Rich’s book is a “must read” for everyone who has been in the movement for less than 10 years.

    Our future rests in not repeating the mistakes of the past. If you want a shot in the arm, and a wiser approach, Rich’s book will save you a lot of time learning things the hard way.

  • DadWithGirls

    For the first time in a long time, I could find anything that David R. Usher wrote to disagree with.

    He’s brilliant on social-gender issues.

    But (you knew it was coming right?) –

    There is NO ECONOMIC COMPONENT

    The first party to add positive social policy that speaks to the vast majority of Americans (who just want a halfway decent marriage), in addition to holding strong positions on terrorism, will clean house.

  • DadWithGirls

    For the first time in a long time, I could find anything that David R. Usher wrote to disagree with.

    He’s brilliant on social-gender issues.

    But (you knew it was coming right?) –

    There is NO ECONOMIC COMPONENT

    The first party to add positive social policy that speaks to the vast majority of Americans (who just want a halfway decent marriage), in addition to holding strong positions on terrorism, will clean house.

  • DadWithGirls

    For the first time in a long time, I could find anything that David R. Usher wrote to disagree with.

    He’s brilliant on social-gender issues.

    But (you knew it was coming right?) –

    There is NO ECONOMIC COMPONENT

    The first party to add positive social policy that speaks to the vast majority of Americans (who just want a halfway decent marriage), in addition to holding strong positions on terrorism, will clean house.

  • DadWithGirls

    wELL

    For the first time in a long time, I could find anything that David R. Usher wrote to disagree with.

    He’s brilliant on social-gender issues.

    But (you knew it was coming right?) –

    There is NO ECONOMIC COMPONENT

    The first party to add positive social policy that speaks to the vast majority of Americans (who just want a halfway decent marriage), in addition to holding strong positions on terrorism, will clean house.

  • DadWithGirls

    wELL

    For the first time in a long time, I could find anything that David R. Usher wrote to disagree with.

    He’s brilliant on social-gender issues.

    But (you knew it was coming right?) –

    There is NO ECONOMIC COMPONENT

    The first party to add positive social policy that speaks to the vast majority of Americans (who just want a halfway decent marriage), in addition to holding strong positions on terrorism, will clean house.

  • DadWithGirls

    wELL

    For the first time in a long time, I could find anything that David R. Usher wrote to disagree with.

    He’s brilliant on social-gender issues.

    But (you knew it was coming right?) –

    There is NO ECONOMIC COMPONENT

    The first party to add positive social policy that speaks to the vast majority of Americans (who just want a halfway decent marriage), in addition to holding strong positions on terrorism, will clean house.

  • DadWithGirls

    If there was ever a need to include a “just-posted-I-want-to-edit” option on MND, my above post-abortions should be conclusive.

    How many MRA’s type with 2 fingers?

    To reconstruct the disaster above –

    For the first time in a long time, I could NOT find anything that David R. Usher wrote to disagree with.

    He’s brilliant on social-gender issues.

    But (you knew it was coming right?) –

    There is NO ECONOMIC COMPONENT

    (David) — “The first party to add positive social policy that speaks to the vast majority of Americans (who just want a halfway decent marriage), in addition to holding strong positions on terrorism, will clean house.”

    How can the institution of marriage be salvaged in a NAFTA-globalism economy that increasingly deprives men who want to be fathers, family providers, of the basic income they require to fulfill that role?

    Women have the benefits of the feminist Nanny State.

    What do men have, other than their own labor?

    Or, more precisely, what the Nanny State does not expropriate from them?

    Restoring marriage means restoring men’s economic power.

    “Power” is not a dirty word.

    Again, apologies for my two-fingered g-n-i-p-y-t.

  • DadWithGirls

    If there was ever a need to include a “just-posted-I-want-to-edit” option on MND, my above post-abortions should be conclusive.

    How many MRA’s type with 2 fingers?

    To reconstruct the disaster above –

    For the first time in a long time, I could NOT find anything that David R. Usher wrote to disagree with.

    He’s brilliant on social-gender issues.

    But (you knew it was coming right?) –

    There is NO ECONOMIC COMPONENT

    (David) — “The first party to add positive social policy that speaks to the vast majority of Americans (who just want a halfway decent marriage), in addition to holding strong positions on terrorism, will clean house.”

    How can the institution of marriage be salvaged in a NAFTA-globalism economy that increasingly deprives men who want to be fathers, family providers, of the basic income they require to fulfill that role?

    Women have the benefits of the feminist Nanny State.

    What do men have, other than their own labor?

    Or, more precisely, what the Nanny State does not expropriate from them?

    Restoring marriage means restoring men’s economic power.

    “Power” is not a dirty word.

    Again, apologies for my two-fingered g-n-i-p-y-t.

  • DadWithGirls

    If there was ever a need to include a “just-posted-I-want-to-edit” option on MND, my above post-abortions should be conclusive.

    How many MRA’s type with 2 fingers?

    To reconstruct the disaster above –

    For the first time in a long time, I could NOT find anything that David R. Usher wrote to disagree with.

    He’s brilliant on social-gender issues.

    But (you knew it was coming right?) –

    There is NO ECONOMIC COMPONENT

    (David) — “The first party to add positive social policy that speaks to the vast majority of Americans (who just want a halfway decent marriage), in addition to holding strong positions on terrorism, will clean house.”

    How can the institution of marriage be salvaged in a NAFTA-globalism economy that increasingly deprives men who want to be fathers, family providers, of the basic income they require to fulfill that role?

    Women have the benefits of the feminist Nanny State.

    What do men have, other than their own labor?

    Or, more precisely, what the Nanny State does not expropriate from them?

    Restoring marriage means restoring men’s economic power.

    “Power” is not a dirty word.

    Again, apologies for my two-fingered g-n-i-p-y-t.

  • http://citizensrule.net right2parent

    Mr. Doyle has been at this a long time. I have shared his frustration, getting involved in some interesting projects with him in the past. He is right that the focus of the so-called men’s movement should be “[t]o preserve the traditional nuclear family…”

    Most organizations confuse this concept with some archaic notion of “The Evil Patriarchy,” as Denis has noted. In fact, the concept of patriarchy is not so scary as “children as chattel,” etc. Maybe it would help some people to understand that common law regarding patriarchal principles can and has changed over the years, but in this system of government, there are formalities that must be followed when the people decide they should. Where these procedures are not followed, the common law remains in effect. Principally, the change must come from legislation, and the intent to do so must be clear. The courts can only affect procedural aspects.

    What I’m getting at is, the common law, with respect to father custody has not “evolved” over time into what today appears to be a matriarchal order. It has been cleverly avoided by the misuse of welfare legislation, regulating the placement of state wards. Likewise, alimony and the support of children are regulated by common law practice, unless the state has made the presumption the husband or father has come under the regulatory reach of the state’s police power.

    The reason I’m getting into all of this is to suggest that many of the projects and supposed cures for family law problems are avoiding the cause and focusing on the effect of an abuse of power.

    Jim Loose III said; “We need a government constrained by its owners to stay out of families without the proper constitutional tripwire being tripped … the same tripwire between divorced people as married people: Probable Cause to believe that abuse or neglect is occuring.”

    Of course he is right. I think everyone can feel it, but they can’t put their finger on the violation. The violation is the failure to provide due process of law, not that the law is unfair. In most situations, it is misapplied, most often without understanding how. As Roger Knight noted, the family “is the cornerstone of a fruitful and successful way to live life.” More than that, it has been proven to be the only foundation for a civilized society that works. His critique of Glenn Sacks is off the mark though. While he is correct to note that Manley’s case included adultery and a self-supporting ex-wife, his actions did make it “easier for our many enemies to portray divorced dads as violent nuts.” Unfortunately, attorneys have been hoodwinked by years of false legal assumptions passed off as evolving common law.

    Denis says we should “[c]hange the damn laws and make this country a place where all are truly equal. Until that happens there will be women making bad decisions because they can.” I can’t fault women for taking advantages the system gives them. It isn’t the laws that need to change. The problem is education regarding the law’s application. Again, the issue is due process. The state places wards under different conditions than a court uses to terminate parental rights. The state also establishes child support obligations under different conditions than a father may otherwise chose to provide it. The critical factor that evokes the state’s power is neglect. Likewise, David R. Usher maintains “[w]e must enact policies that expect marital responsibility and not reward those who are irresponsible to it.” What he fails to see is, the common law already does that. The failure is with the policy that rejects it. We don’t need more laws. We need much fewer.

    Good luck with your project, Richard.

  • http://citizensrule.net right2parent

    Mr. Doyle has been at this a long time. I have shared his frustration, getting involved in some interesting projects with him in the past. He is right that the focus of the so-called men’s movement should be “[t]o preserve the traditional nuclear family…”

    Most organizations confuse this concept with some archaic notion of “The Evil Patriarchy,” as Denis has noted. In fact, the concept of patriarchy is not so scary as “children as chattel,” etc. Maybe it would help some people to understand that common law regarding patriarchal principles can and has changed over the years, but in this system of government, there are formalities that must be followed when the people decide they should. Where these procedures are not followed, the common law remains in effect. Principally, the change must come from legislation, and the intent to do so must be clear. The courts can only affect procedural aspects.

    What I’m getting at is, the common law, with respect to father custody has not “evolved” over time into what today appears to be a matriarchal order. It has been cleverly avoided by the misuse of welfare legislation, regulating the placement of state wards. Likewise, alimony and the support of children are regulated by common law practice, unless the state has made the presumption the husband or father has come under the regulatory reach of the state’s police power.

    The reason I’m getting into all of this is to suggest that many of the projects and supposed cures for family law problems are avoiding the cause and focusing on the effect of an abuse of power.

    Jim Loose III said; “We need a government constrained by its owners to stay out of families without the proper constitutional tripwire being tripped … the same tripwire between divorced people as married people: Probable Cause to believe that abuse or neglect is occuring.”

    Of course he is right. I think everyone can feel it, but they can’t put their finger on the violation. The violation is the failure to provide due process of law, not that the law is unfair. In most situations, it is misapplied, most often without understanding how. As Roger Knight noted, the family “is the cornerstone of a fruitful and successful way to live life.” More than that, it has been proven to be the only foundation for a civilized society that works. His critique of Glenn Sacks is off the mark though. While he is correct to note that Manley’s case included adultery and a self-supporting ex-wife, his actions did make it “easier for our many enemies to portray divorced dads as violent nuts.” Unfortunately, attorneys have been hoodwinked by years of false legal assumptions passed off as evolving common law.

    Denis says we should “[c]hange the damn laws and make this country a place where all are truly equal. Until that happens there will be women making bad decisions because they can.” I can’t fault women for taking advantages the system gives them. It isn’t the laws that need to change. The problem is education regarding the law’s application. Again, the issue is due process. The state places wards under different conditions than a court uses to terminate parental rights. The state also establishes child support obligations under different conditions than a father may otherwise chose to provide it. The critical factor that evokes the state’s power is neglect. Likewise, David R. Usher maintains “[w]e must enact policies that expect marital responsibility and not reward those who are irresponsible to it.” What he fails to see is, the common law already does that. The failure is with the policy that rejects it. We don’t need more laws. We need much fewer.

    Good luck with your project, Richard.

  • http://citizensrule.net right2parent

    Mr. Doyle has been at this a long time. I have shared his frustration, getting involved in some interesting projects with him in the past. He is right that the focus of the so-called men’s movement should be “[t]o preserve the traditional nuclear family…”

    Most organizations confuse this concept with some archaic notion of “The Evil Patriarchy,” as Denis has noted. In fact, the concept of patriarchy is not so scary as “children as chattel,” etc. Maybe it would help some people to understand that common law regarding patriarchal principles can and has changed over the years, but in this system of government, there are formalities that must be followed when the people decide they should. Where these procedures are not followed, the common law remains in effect. Principally, the change must come from legislation, and the intent to do so must be clear. The courts can only affect procedural aspects.

    What I’m getting at is, the common law, with respect to father custody has not “evolved” over time into what today appears to be a matriarchal order. It has been cleverly avoided by the misuse of welfare legislation, regulating the placement of state wards. Likewise, alimony and the support of children are regulated by common law practice, unless the state has made the presumption the husband or father has come under the regulatory reach of the state’s police power.

    The reason I’m getting into all of this is to suggest that many of the projects and supposed cures for family law problems are avoiding the cause and focusing on the effect of an abuse of power.

    Jim Loose III said; “We need a government constrained by its owners to stay out of families without the proper constitutional tripwire being tripped … the same tripwire between divorced people as married people: Probable Cause to believe that abuse or neglect is occuring.”

    Of course he is right. I think everyone can feel it, but they can’t put their finger on the violation. The violation is the failure to provide due process of law, not that the law is unfair. In most situations, it is misapplied, most often without understanding how. As Roger Knight noted, the family “is the cornerstone of a fruitful and successful way to live life.” More than that, it has been proven to be the only foundation for a civilized society that works. His critique of Glenn Sacks is off the mark though. While he is correct to note that Manley’s case included adultery and a self-supporting ex-wife, his actions did make it “easier for our many enemies to portray divorced dads as violent nuts.” Unfortunately, attorneys have been hoodwinked by years of false legal assumptions passed off as evolving common law.

    Denis says we should “[c]hange the damn laws and make this country a place where all are truly equal. Until that happens there will be women making bad decisions because they can.” I can’t fault women for taking advantages the system gives them. It isn’t the laws that need to change. The problem is education regarding the law’s application. Again, the issue is due process. The state places wards under different conditions than a court uses to terminate parental rights. The state also establishes child support obligations under different conditions than a father may otherwise chose to provide it. The critical factor that evokes the state’s power is neglect. Likewise, David R. Usher maintains “[w]e must enact policies that expect marital responsibility and not reward those who are irresponsible to it.” What he fails to see is, the common law already does that. The failure is with the policy that rejects it. We don’t need more laws. We need much fewer.

    Good luck with your project, Richard.

  • http://www.antipeonage.0catch.com Roger Knight

    “The violation is the failure to provide due process of law, not that the law is unfair.”
    Yup! That’s it! In Washington it is spelled out with RCW 26.09.100 for child support and in RCW 26.09.080 and RCW 26.09.090. The key statutory language (in derogation of the common law) reads: “without regard to marital misconduct”.
    That means “without due process of law”.
    But try to explain that to people. You might as well try explaining to the kind of woman who “hated math” that as there are 8 furlongs in a mile, there are 64 square furlongs in a square mile. A seemingly obvious and easy to understand concept, but some people, particluarly those with law degrees and a powerful self interest, will refuse to get it.
    Now I did plead that, but when the courts reject that argument and the supreme courts refuse to hear it, what do you do?
    So I went after the ENFORCEMENT of these patently illegal support orders.
    What do you mean “patently illegal”? They are “valid” support orders.
    Not without the DUE PROCESS OF LAW they ain’t.
    But try telling that to the authorities arresting you for not complying with a “valid” support order resulting in a “valid” arrest warrant.
    So I came up with the Antipeonage Act. Why? Because in addition to everything else it provides, i.e. that support orders are null and void when employment is necessary for compliance, it provides a mechanism, within the law, to PUNISH and REMOVE FROM POWER, the bastards and bitches who are doing it to us!
    And it seizes the moral high ground. Because while we have enough idiots with microphones telling the public that we are fathers who “abandon” our families, and therefore are impervious to the fact that the support orders are imposed WITHOUT ANY REQUIREMENT FOR A FINDING OF WRONGDOING, I.E. THE DUE PROCESS OF LAW, people understand that nobody has a right to commit a felony.
    Which is what peonage, i.e., slavery for debt, is.
    Now I agree that when Perry committed suicide by cop, he made it easier for us to be smeared as a bunch of violent nuts. But that is like the person with an honest disagreement with affirmative action allowing himself to be silenced by being called a “racist” for having such views.
    You see, most Americans, if not the limp wristed liberal kind, understand the need for violent self defense. That is why gun control efforts are blunted. Why self defense exceptions in state laws are being strengthened. Why actors like Arnold Schwarzzenegger, Sylvester Stallone, and Steven Segall can become wealthy playing the part of “violent nuts”. Their characters are not evil, but are heroes, or even anti-heroes, who find themselves up against truly violent villans who need to be stopped. Thus not only will the audience root for them, they will pay $8 at the movie theater for the privilege of watching them.
    Americans do not condemn the home owner who shoots a burglar, the store clerk who responds to a late night robbery attempt with his own shotgun, and the woman who maces a rapist.
    And we understand that the American Revolution was a self defense war against British tyranny.
    We “get” Sparticus and Nat Turner. We do not condemn Sparticus, the American Revolutionaries, and Nat Turner as “violent nuts”.
    So when a Perry Manley commits suicide by cop at the federal courthouse, or a Darren Mack shoots Judge Weller at the Reno courthouse with windows too thin to be bulletproof (now THAT’S incompetence in government!) the correct response is not to condemn the husband and father who reacted violently, as Glenn Sacks does, but to point out that they are the victims of state sponsored ARMED ROBBERY, EXTORTION, AND PEOANGE.
    And had no effective nonviolent means to stop these state sponsored CRIMES.
    Rather than join our enemies in condemning those who react violently, and therefore ASSISTING IN THE DEMONIZATION OF US AS VIOLENT NUTS, we need to point out THAT IT IS THE GOVERNMENT THAT IS ACTING BOTH ILLEGALLY AND VIOLENTLY.
    Judge Weller had it coming.
    If you disagree with this, then you are still without sufficient understanding of all that we are saying in these posts,
    to be any good for us.

  • http://www.antipeonage.0catch.com Roger Knight

    “The violation is the failure to provide due process of law, not that the law is unfair.”
    Yup! That’s it! In Washington it is spelled out with RCW 26.09.100 for child support and in RCW 26.09.080 and RCW 26.09.090. The key statutory language (in derogation of the common law) reads: “without regard to marital misconduct”.
    That means “without due process of law”.
    But try to explain that to people. You might as well try explaining to the kind of woman who “hated math” that as there are 8 furlongs in a mile, there are 64 square furlongs in a square mile. A seemingly obvious and easy to understand concept, but some people, particluarly those with law degrees and a powerful self interest, will refuse to get it.
    Now I did plead that, but when the courts reject that argument and the supreme courts refuse to hear it, what do you do?
    So I went after the ENFORCEMENT of these patently illegal support orders.
    What do you mean “patently illegal”? They are “valid” support orders.
    Not without the DUE PROCESS OF LAW they ain’t.
    But try telling that to the authorities arresting you for not complying with a “valid” support order resulting in a “valid” arrest warrant.
    So I came up with the Antipeonage Act. Why? Because in addition to everything else it provides, i.e. that support orders are null and void when employment is necessary for compliance, it provides a mechanism, within the law, to PUNISH and REMOVE FROM POWER, the bastards and bitches who are doing it to us!
    And it seizes the moral high ground. Because while we have enough idiots with microphones telling the public that we are fathers who “abandon” our families, and therefore are impervious to the fact that the support orders are imposed WITHOUT ANY REQUIREMENT FOR A FINDING OF WRONGDOING, I.E. THE DUE PROCESS OF LAW, people understand that nobody has a right to commit a felony.
    Which is what peonage, i.e., slavery for debt, is.
    Now I agree that when Perry committed suicide by cop, he made it easier for us to be smeared as a bunch of violent nuts. But that is like the person with an honest disagreement with affirmative action allowing himself to be silenced by being called a “racist” for having such views.
    You see, most Americans, if not the limp wristed liberal kind, understand the need for violent self defense. That is why gun control efforts are blunted. Why self defense exceptions in state laws are being strengthened. Why actors like Arnold Schwarzzenegger, Sylvester Stallone, and Steven Segall can become wealthy playing the part of “violent nuts”. Their characters are not evil, but are heroes, or even anti-heroes, who find themselves up against truly violent villans who need to be stopped. Thus not only will the audience root for them, they will pay $8 at the movie theater for the privilege of watching them.
    Americans do not condemn the home owner who shoots a burglar, the store clerk who responds to a late night robbery attempt with his own shotgun, and the woman who maces a rapist.
    And we understand that the American Revolution was a self defense war against British tyranny.
    We “get” Sparticus and Nat Turner. We do not condemn Sparticus, the American Revolutionaries, and Nat Turner as “violent nuts”.
    So when a Perry Manley commits suicide by cop at the federal courthouse, or a Darren Mack shoots Judge Weller at the Reno courthouse with windows too thin to be bulletproof (now THAT’S incompetence in government!) the correct response is not to condemn the husband and father who reacted violently, as Glenn Sacks does, but to point out that they are the victims of state sponsored ARMED ROBBERY, EXTORTION, AND PEOANGE.
    And had no effective nonviolent means to stop these state sponsored CRIMES.
    Rather than join our enemies in condemning those who react violently, and therefore ASSISTING IN THE DEMONIZATION OF US AS VIOLENT NUTS, we need to point out THAT IT IS THE GOVERNMENT THAT IS ACTING BOTH ILLEGALLY AND VIOLENTLY.
    Judge Weller had it coming.
    If you disagree with this, then you are still without sufficient understanding of all that we are saying in these posts,
    to be any good for us.

  • http://www.antipeonage.0catch.com Roger Knight

    “The violation is the failure to provide due process of law, not that the law is unfair.”
    Yup! That’s it! In Washington it is spelled out with RCW 26.09.100 for child support and in RCW 26.09.080 and RCW 26.09.090. The key statutory language (in derogation of the common law) reads: “without regard to marital misconduct”.
    That means “without due process of law”.
    But try to explain that to people. You might as well try explaining to the kind of woman who “hated math” that as there are 8 furlongs in a mile, there are 64 square furlongs in a square mile. A seemingly obvious and easy to understand concept, but some people, particluarly those with law degrees and a powerful self interest, will refuse to get it.
    Now I did plead that, but when the courts reject that argument and the supreme courts refuse to hear it, what do you do?
    So I went after the ENFORCEMENT of these patently illegal support orders.
    What do you mean “patently illegal”? They are “valid” support orders.
    Not without the DUE PROCESS OF LAW they ain’t.
    But try telling that to the authorities arresting you for not complying with a “valid” support order resulting in a “valid” arrest warrant.
    So I came up with the Antipeonage Act. Why? Because in addition to everything else it provides, i.e. that support orders are null and void when employment is necessary for compliance, it provides a mechanism, within the law, to PUNISH and REMOVE FROM POWER, the bastards and bitches who are doing it to us!
    And it seizes the moral high ground. Because while we have enough idiots with microphones telling the public that we are fathers who “abandon” our families, and therefore are impervious to the fact that the support orders are imposed WITHOUT ANY REQUIREMENT FOR A FINDING OF WRONGDOING, I.E. THE DUE PROCESS OF LAW, people understand that nobody has a right to commit a felony.
    Which is what peonage, i.e., slavery for debt, is.
    Now I agree that when Perry committed suicide by cop, he made it easier for us to be smeared as a bunch of violent nuts. But that is like the person with an honest disagreement with affirmative action allowing himself to be silenced by being called a “racist” for having such views.
    You see, most Americans, if not the limp wristed liberal kind, understand the need for violent self defense. That is why gun control efforts are blunted. Why self defense exceptions in state laws are being strengthened. Why actors like Arnold Schwarzzenegger, Sylvester Stallone, and Steven Segall can become wealthy playing the part of “violent nuts”. Their characters are not evil, but are heroes, or even anti-heroes, who find themselves up against truly violent villans who need to be stopped. Thus not only will the audience root for them, they will pay $8 at the movie theater for the privilege of watching them.
    Americans do not condemn the home owner who shoots a burglar, the store clerk who responds to a late night robbery attempt with his own shotgun, and the woman who maces a rapist.
    And we understand that the American Revolution was a self defense war against British tyranny.
    We “get” Sparticus and Nat Turner. We do not condemn Sparticus, the American Revolutionaries, and Nat Turner as “violent nuts”.
    So when a Perry Manley commits suicide by cop at the federal courthouse, or a Darren Mack shoots Judge Weller at the Reno courthouse with windows too thin to be bulletproof (now THAT’S incompetence in government!) the correct response is not to condemn the husband and father who reacted violently, as Glenn Sacks does, but to point out that they are the victims of state sponsored ARMED ROBBERY, EXTORTION, AND PEOANGE.
    And had no effective nonviolent means to stop these state sponsored CRIMES.
    Rather than join our enemies in condemning those who react violently, and therefore ASSISTING IN THE DEMONIZATION OF US AS VIOLENT NUTS, we need to point out THAT IT IS THE GOVERNMENT THAT IS ACTING BOTH ILLEGALLY AND VIOLENTLY.
    Judge Weller had it coming.
    If you disagree with this, then you are still without sufficient understanding of all that we are saying in these posts,
    to be any good for us.

  • http://fathersforlife.org Walter Schneider

    Hello all,

    I know some of you, and some of you know me. After all, the problems that you all wish to address and solve have been around for a long time. So have some of you and so have I. As far as the origins and continued evolution of the anti-male jurisprudence that plagues us now go, those have been around for more than 150 years. Things got as far and as bad as they did precisely because men could never unite. That is amazing, in view of the many things that men achieved through their cooperation. In spite of all that men achieved for humanity, they never achieved much for themselves. They helped liberate women but never liberated themselves.

    We live in a closed social system. Rights and privileges for women have to be paid for by men, children and the elderly; they come especially at the expense of men, in the form of duties, taxes and many obligations. That’s not equitable, and even the radical feminists know that, but they excuse it on the wrongly alleged basis that women were oppressed by men throughout the ages and that today’s men must pay compensation and do penance until their fingers bleed, or until they rot in jail, or until they die. Men went along with that and many of them find fault with any man who objects to being treated like a slave.

    Men invented and built things to make all of our lives better; they especially made the lives of women better. Without men that would not have happened. Our life spans increased enormously during the past 80 years, but they did not increase equally for men and women. In about 1920, men and women still had an equal chance to live, but over the past eighty years the average lifespan of women increased an extra five years, world-wide, over that of men. That is because of what men did, because of what they thought of, what they invented, built and put into operation through the sweat of their brow, because of the blood they spilled, not only in wars to end tyranny and slavery but far more so and in far greater numbers in dangerous, dirty and risky jobs that no feminist in her right mind would insist women should do.

    Alone in terms of the number of victims of suicide, more American men died in the US in just 18 years (1979-1996) than did in all wars the US engaged in in the last century. Far greater numbers of men die on account of fatal accidents on the job than do of suicide; and men still make up about 19 out of every 20 job fatalities – a statistic that has not changed for as long as statistics have been kept. Men went along with that too, and any man who objects is being pounced upon by other men. http://fathersforlife.org/US_suicide_deaths.htm

    The reward given to men for all of those sacrifices they made and continue to make is nothing but scorn, ridicule and slander by feminists and their fellow-travellers. Sadly, there are far more male than female feminists. Real men took and still take it all like men. Real men don’t cry, they don’t lash back, they don’t object to being enslaved. Yeah, right…

    Both Richard Doyle and Dave Usher tried their best over the years to create a men’s unity movement. They know how discouraging a job and how almost-impossible a mission that is. They and others tried several times, and it never worked out yet. They deserve credit for what they have done over the decades, and also for not ever haven given up, in spite of the great disappointments they experienced in their efforts.

    However, who was involved with this movement for a long time also knows how far we have come and how rewarding it is to see that happening. For example, check the history of the respective traffic ranks for the websites of Men’s News Daily and of NOW (write to me if you don’t know how: info@fathersforlife.org . Compare the traffic rankings of many men’s websites against those of many women’s or feminist’s websites. Men’s websites are increasing in popularity against the popularity of women’s and feminist websites. Compare the number of pro-male articles in the news or major newspapers now to what the ratio was 20 years ago. Twenty years ago you would have been lucky to find enough pro-male articles during any year to count them on the fingers of one hand. Today you can find far more than that on a given day.

    I will not give credit to the authors of the many things that have been said so far in this discussion. Many of the complaints have been said by many others over the years. Let’s just say that all of what has been said are things that are being said in a blue-sky session where everyone can express what they wish to say, without anyone being critical or trying to censor anyone. Out of that will come some ideas for proposed solutions to at least some of the problems that have been brought up.

    It pains me when someone says that Richard’s forum should deliver what it promises, namely a discussion on what needs to be done to create a men’s unity movement, and that the debate should not serve to promote Richard’s book.

    The varied and to some extent widely differing opinions expressed in the preceding statements are the very reason why everyone *must* read “Save The Male”; not just men but women, too. For that reason I installed an ad on a few pages at the website of Fathers for Life. For those of you not familiar with the website, you can see that ad if you go to google.com and type in “fatherlessness” (Fathers for Life will come out on top of the list). It’s the first ad at Fathers for Life, ever.

    No problem has ever been successfully solved unless enough people affected by it agreed first that it exists, agreed on what the nature and history of the problem is, and agreed on what its causes are. They also need to agree on what will happen if nothing is being don to address the problem. Men doing nothing is what got us to where we are.

    Don’t argue, read Richard’s book. You can read it for the price of a package of cigarettes of a couple of Starbuck’s coffees. It will help you to understand the problems that puzzle you and that you wish to solve. Do it. Richard has saved you many years of searching, reading and assessing. Do yourself a favour and use what he summarized.
    After that you must still agree on something, and *then* you can begin to discuss who should lead the men’s unity movement.

    If you want something done, do it. Do not rely on others to do it for you and then ignore what they have done. For unity’s sake we must all pitch in and do things. Reading is one of them.

    –Walter, http://fathersforlife.org

  • http://fathersforlife.org Walter Schneider

    Hello all,

    I know some of you, and some of you know me. After all, the problems that you all wish to address and solve have been around for a long time. So have some of you and so have I. As far as the origins and continued evolution of the anti-male jurisprudence that plagues us now go, those have been around for more than 150 years. Things got as far and as bad as they did precisely because men could never unite. That is amazing, in view of the many things that men achieved through their cooperation. In spite of all that men achieved for humanity, they never achieved much for themselves. They helped liberate women but never liberated themselves.

    We live in a closed social system. Rights and privileges for women have to be paid for by men, children and the elderly; they come especially at the expense of men, in the form of duties, taxes and many obligations. That’s not equitable, and even the radical feminists know that, but they excuse it on the wrongly alleged basis that women were oppressed by men throughout the ages and that today’s men must pay compensation and do penance until their fingers bleed, or until they rot in jail, or until they die. Men went along with that and many of them find fault with any man who objects to being treated like a slave.

    Men invented and built things to make all of our lives better; they especially made the lives of women better. Without men that would not have happened. Our life spans increased enormously during the past 80 years, but they did not increase equally for men and women. In about 1920, men and women still had an equal chance to live, but over the past eighty years the average lifespan of women increased an extra five years, world-wide, over that of men. That is because of what men did, because of what they thought of, what they invented, built and put into operation through the sweat of their brow, because of the blood they spilled, not only in wars to end tyranny and slavery but far more so and in far greater numbers in dangerous, dirty and risky jobs that no feminist in her right mind would insist women should do.

    Alone in terms of the number of victims of suicide, more American men died in the US in just 18 years (1979-1996) than did in all wars the US engaged in in the last century. Far greater numbers of men die on account of fatal accidents on the job than do of suicide; and men still make up about 19 out of every 20 job fatalities – a statistic that has not changed for as long as statistics have been kept. Men went along with that too, and any man who objects is being pounced upon by other men. http://fathersforlife.org/US_suicide_deaths.htm

    The reward given to men for all of those sacrifices they made and continue to make is nothing but scorn, ridicule and slander by feminists and their fellow-travellers. Sadly, there are far more male than female feminists. Real men took and still take it all like men. Real men don’t cry, they don’t lash back, they don’t object to being enslaved. Yeah, right…

    Both Richard Doyle and Dave Usher tried their best over the years to create a men’s unity movement. They know how discouraging a job and how almost-impossible a mission that is. They and others tried several times, and it never worked out yet. They deserve credit for what they have done over the decades, and also for not ever haven given up, in spite of the great disappointments they experienced in their efforts.

    However, who was involved with this movement for a long time also knows how far we have come and how rewarding it is to see that happening. For example, check the history of the respective traffic ranks for the websites of Men’s News Daily and of NOW (write to me if you don’t know how: info@fathersforlife.org . Compare the traffic rankings of many men’s websites against those of many women’s or feminist’s websites. Men’s websites are increasing in popularity against the popularity of women’s and feminist websites. Compare the number of pro-male articles in the news or major newspapers now to what the ratio was 20 years ago. Twenty years ago you would have been lucky to find enough pro-male articles during any year to count them on the fingers of one hand. Today you can find far more than that on a given day.

    I will not give credit to the authors of the many things that have been said so far in this discussion. Many of the complaints have been said by many others over the years. Let’s just say that all of what has been said are things that are being said in a blue-sky session where everyone can express what they wish to say, without anyone being critical or trying to censor anyone. Out of that will come some ideas for proposed solutions to at least some of the problems that have been brought up.

    It pains me when someone says that Richard’s forum should deliver what it promises, namely a discussion on what needs to be done to create a men’s unity movement, and that the debate should not serve to promote Richard’s book.

    The varied and to some extent widely differing opinions expressed in the preceding statements are the very reason why everyone *must* read “Save The Male”; not just men but women, too. For that reason I installed an ad on a few pages at the website of Fathers for Life. For those of you not familiar with the website, you can see that ad if you go to google.com and type in “fatherlessness” (Fathers for Life will come out on top of the list). It’s the first ad at Fathers for Life, ever.

    No problem has ever been successfully solved unless enough people affected by it agreed first that it exists, agreed on what the nature and history of the problem is, and agreed on what its causes are. They also need to agree on what will happen if nothing is being don to address the problem. Men doing nothing is what got us to where we are.

    Don’t argue, read Richard’s book. You can read it for the price of a package of cigarettes of a couple of Starbuck’s coffees. It will help you to understand the problems that puzzle you and that you wish to solve. Do it. Richard has saved you many years of searching, reading and assessing. Do yourself a favour and use what he summarized.
    After that you must still agree on something, and *then* you can begin to discuss who should lead the men’s unity movement.

    If you want something done, do it. Do not rely on others to do it for you and then ignore what they have done. For unity’s sake we must all pitch in and do things. Reading is one of them.

    –Walter, http://fathersforlife.org

  • http://fathersforlife.org Walter Schneider

    Hello all,

    I know some of you, and some of you know me. After all, the problems that you all wish to address and solve have been around for a long time. So have some of you and so have I. As far as the origins and continued evolution of the anti-male jurisprudence that plagues us now go, those have been around for more than 150 years. Things got as far and as bad as they did precisely because men could never unite. That is amazing, in view of the many things that men achieved through their cooperation. In spite of all that men achieved for humanity, they never achieved much for themselves. They helped liberate women but never liberated themselves.

    We live in a closed social system. Rights and privileges for women have to be paid for by men, children and the elderly; they come especially at the expense of men, in the form of duties, taxes and many obligations. That’s not equitable, and even the radical feminists know that, but they excuse it on the wrongly alleged basis that women were oppressed by men throughout the ages and that today’s men must pay compensation and do penance until their fingers bleed, or until they rot in jail, or until they die. Men went along with that and many of them find fault with any man who objects to being treated like a slave.

    Men invented and built things to make all of our lives better; they especially made the lives of women better. Without men that would not have happened. Our life spans increased enormously during the past 80 years, but they did not increase equally for men and women. In about 1920, men and women still had an equal chance to live, but over the past eighty years the average lifespan of women increased an extra five years, world-wide, over that of men. That is because of what men did, because of what they thought of, what they invented, built and put into operation through the sweat of their brow, because of the blood they spilled, not only in wars to end tyranny and slavery but far more so and in far greater numbers in dangerous, dirty and risky jobs that no feminist in her right mind would insist women should do.

    Alone in terms of the number of victims of suicide, more American men died in the US in just 18 years (1979-1996) than did in all wars the US engaged in in the last century. Far greater numbers of men die on account of fatal accidents on the job than do of suicide; and men still make up about 19 out of every 20 job fatalities – a statistic that has not changed for as long as statistics have been kept. Men went along with that too, and any man who objects is being pounced upon by other men. http://fathersforlife.org/US_suicide_deaths.htm

    The reward given to men for all of those sacrifices they made and continue to make is nothing but scorn, ridicule and slander by feminists and their fellow-travellers. Sadly, there are far more male than female feminists. Real men took and still take it all like men. Real men don’t cry, they don’t lash back, they don’t object to being enslaved. Yeah, right…

    Both Richard Doyle and Dave Usher tried their best over the years to create a men’s unity movement. They know how discouraging a job and how almost-impossible a mission that is. They and others tried several times, and it never worked out yet. They deserve credit for what they have done over the decades, and also for not ever haven given up, in spite of the great disappointments they experienced in their efforts.

    However, who was involved with this movement for a long time also knows how far we have come and how rewarding it is to see that happening. For example, check the history of the respective traffic ranks for the websites of Men’s News Daily and of NOW (write to me if you don’t know how: info@fathersforlife.org . Compare the traffic rankings of many men’s websites against those of many women’s or feminist’s websites. Men’s websites are increasing in popularity against the popularity of women’s and feminist websites. Compare the number of pro-male articles in the news or major newspapers now to what the ratio was 20 years ago. Twenty years ago you would have been lucky to find enough pro-male articles during any year to count them on the fingers of one hand. Today you can find far more than that on a given day.

    I will not give credit to the authors of the many things that have been said so far in this discussion. Many of the complaints have been said by many others over the years. Let’s just say that all of what has been said are things that are being said in a blue-sky session where everyone can express what they wish to say, without anyone being critical or trying to censor anyone. Out of that will come some ideas for proposed solutions to at least some of the problems that have been brought up.

    It pains me when someone says that Richard’s forum should deliver what it promises, namely a discussion on what needs to be done to create a men’s unity movement, and that the debate should not serve to promote Richard’s book.

    The varied and to some extent widely differing opinions expressed in the preceding statements are the very reason why everyone *must* read “Save The Male”; not just men but women, too. For that reason I installed an ad on a few pages at the website of Fathers for Life. For those of you not familiar with the website, you can see that ad if you go to google.com and type in “fatherlessness” (Fathers for Life will come out on top of the list). It’s the first ad at Fathers for Life, ever.

    No problem has ever been successfully solved unless enough people affected by it agreed first that it exists, agreed on what the nature and history of the problem is, and agreed on what its causes are. They also need to agree on what will happen if nothing is being don to address the problem. Men doing nothing is what got us to where we are.

    Don’t argue, read Richard’s book. You can read it for the price of a package of cigarettes of a couple of Starbuck’s coffees. It will help you to understand the problems that puzzle you and that you wish to solve. Do it. Richard has saved you many years of searching, reading and assessing. Do yourself a favour and use what he summarized.
    After that you must still agree on something, and *then* you can begin to discuss who should lead the men’s unity movement.

    If you want something done, do it. Do not rely on others to do it for you and then ignore what they have done. For unity’s sake we must all pitch in and do things. Reading is one of them.

    –Walter, http://fathersforlife.org

  • David R. Usher

    Hi Walter,

    Actually, I am not dissapointed. I am more ebullient than ever about the prospects for change. Twenty years ago, mens’ rights lobbyists who went to the legislature were thought of as nuts. It was impossible to get anything pro-father published anyplace.

    In 1991 and 1998, we finally got a lot of good legislation passed in Missouri. We are beginning to make an impact at the federal level. Legitimate conservatives in the Republican party are listening and learning, but the RNC is still trying hard to ignore us because they don’t want to change the subject from the war on terror. This will change all in good time.

    We need more mass and noise in the streets to put it over the top, and the sooner we generate this mass.

    We have the votes, compromised of a non-homogenous group of voters that political analysts have not yet recognized. It is comprised of grandparents, divorced fathers, second wives, recovering feminists of both sexes, religious conservatives, and a fair number of divorced women who realize that divorce drove them off a feminist cliff. My guess is that we hold 65% of the next presidential vote, consisting of highly motivated voters whose issues are not being addressed by either party.

    We have a better chance of changing things than ever before. But, this change will come slowly. It took feminism 90 years (from its first inception in the women’s Ku Klux Klan in the 1880′s until 1970) to establish the feminist state. We cannot expect this to be changed in a short period of time.

    I strongly recommend that all young men (particularly college men who don’t want to end up losing everything they worked for) organize on college campuses. There is no better education in politics, speaking, or assertiveness and public speaking than this. The future leaders of this country are in college now. They will ultimately recieve what they demand or fail to demand right now while they are in college. And, I will work with all college men who wish to found a campus organization.

    OK guys, enough said. Lets Git R Done.

  • David R. Usher

    Hi Walter,

    Actually, I am not dissapointed. I am more ebullient than ever about the prospects for change. Twenty years ago, mens’ rights lobbyists who went to the legislature were thought of as nuts. It was impossible to get anything pro-father published anyplace.

    In 1991 and 1998, we finally got a lot of good legislation passed in Missouri. We are beginning to make an impact at the federal level. Legitimate conservatives in the Republican party are listening and learning, but the RNC is still trying hard to ignore us because they don’t want to change the subject from the war on terror. This will change all in good time.

    We need more mass and noise in the streets to put it over the top, and the sooner we generate this mass.

    We have the votes, compromised of a non-homogenous group of voters that political analysts have not yet recognized. It is comprised of grandparents, divorced fathers, second wives, recovering feminists of both sexes, religious conservatives, and a fair number of divorced women who realize that divorce drove them off a feminist cliff. My guess is that we hold 65% of the next presidential vote, consisting of highly motivated voters whose issues are not being addressed by either party.

    We have a better chance of changing things than ever before. But, this change will come slowly. It took feminism 90 years (from its first inception in the women’s Ku Klux Klan in the 1880′s until 1970) to establish the feminist state. We cannot expect this to be changed in a short period of time.

    I strongly recommend that all young men (particularly college men who don’t want to end up losing everything they worked for) organize on college campuses. There is no better education in politics, speaking, or assertiveness and public speaking than this. The future leaders of this country are in college now. They will ultimately recieve what they demand or fail to demand right now while they are in college. And, I will work with all college men who wish to found a campus organization.

    OK guys, enough said. Lets Git R Done.

  • David R. Usher

    Hi Walter,

    Actually, I am not dissapointed. I am more ebullient than ever about the prospects for change. Twenty years ago, mens’ rights lobbyists who went to the legislature were thought of as nuts. It was impossible to get anything pro-father published anyplace.

    In 1991 and 1998, we finally got a lot of good legislation passed in Missouri. We are beginning to make an impact at the federal level. Legitimate conservatives in the Republican party are listening and learning, but the RNC is still trying hard to ignore us because they don’t want to change the subject from the war on terror. This will change all in good time.

    We need more mass and noise in the streets to put it over the top, and the sooner we generate this mass.

    We have the votes, compromised of a non-homogenous group of voters that political analysts have not yet recognized. It is comprised of grandparents, divorced fathers, second wives, recovering feminists of both sexes, religious conservatives, and a fair number of divorced women who realize that divorce drove them off a feminist cliff. My guess is that we hold 65% of the next presidential vote, consisting of highly motivated voters whose issues are not being addressed by either party.

    We have a better chance of changing things than ever before. But, this change will come slowly. It took feminism 90 years (from its first inception in the women’s Ku Klux Klan in the 1880′s until 1970) to establish the feminist state. We cannot expect this to be changed in a short period of time.

    I strongly recommend that all young men (particularly college men who don’t want to end up losing everything they worked for) organize on college campuses. There is no better education in politics, speaking, or assertiveness and public speaking than this. The future leaders of this country are in college now. They will ultimately recieve what they demand or fail to demand right now while they are in college. And, I will work with all college men who wish to found a campus organization.

    OK guys, enough said. Lets Git R Done.

  • mruffolo

    It is encouraging to read what has been written here. This ought to continue.

    I do not have the leadership gift. So some one with this gift ought to step up to start recruiting; cast a vision; identify other’s gifts; delegate; and, raise money.

    I like the idea of creating awareness on campuses. I may be able to introduce a leader to Mike Adams of Townhall.com. He may be able to help.

    markruffolo@yahoo.com

  • mruffolo

    It is encouraging to read what has been written here. This ought to continue.

    I do not have the leadership gift. So some one with this gift ought to step up to start recruiting; cast a vision; identify other’s gifts; delegate; and, raise money.

    I like the idea of creating awareness on campuses. I may be able to introduce a leader to Mike Adams of Townhall.com. He may be able to help.

    markruffolo@yahoo.com

  • mruffolo

    It is encouraging to read what has been written here. This ought to continue.

    I do not have the leadership gift. So some one with this gift ought to step up to start recruiting; cast a vision; identify other’s gifts; delegate; and, raise money.

    I like the idea of creating awareness on campuses. I may be able to introduce a leader to Mike Adams of Townhall.com. He may be able to help.

    markruffolo@yahoo.com

  • swannie52

    The old problem remains in that many activists and those they act for and support come from other countries. Thus it is a Fathers Rights movement scattered around the Globe with little or no liason capability-never mind planning and organozing potential.

    Everyone here is talking eagerly, voluably and productively about a Fathers Movement but all the talk is around something based in and eminating from the United States. Or so it seems. It can not be so unfortunately as we exist in a very culturally diverse world.

    I work closely with our ‘brothers’ in the USA all the time but its only about sharing media info and other morale-related resources. The reality is that legally and politically we can do nothing to change the lot of American Dads and they can do little to reciprocate with Canadian, British, Australian and New Zealand Dads among many others.

    So it is then that in using the perspective of developing a national movement of our fractured and feuding Fathers Groups one has to first service the idea of individial national movements. To me the national movement in Canada has to be based in Ottawa just as the national movement in Australian must be in Canberra and the US one in Washington.

    So you see, we already suffer from regional differences right off the bat and we have to work on our own infrastructure first before liasing (as we must)with our American Brothers. I could forsee a North and South American Convention of course and this is part of an international effort. Certainly its all possible.

    Please remember as you think about this that we here in Canada suffer from the same social fractures, dividing egotism, rivalries, and petty jealousies as everybody else. After some time trying the theory and principle out here in Canada I have pretty much realized that the only way out of the ‘doldrums’ is to bypass the naysayers and the basement grumps and apply the “build it and they will come” scenario. I really believe this is the only way to go and you will have to do the same in the USA. In the meantime I suggest that ongoing liaison-even meetings on this issue be the order of the day. I am up for it. I have solid practical ideas aplenty. And experience to boot.

    The first issue is funding.

  • swannie52

    The old problem remains in that many activists and those they act for and support come from other countries. Thus it is a Fathers Rights movement scattered around the Globe with little or no liason capability-never mind planning and organozing potential.

    Everyone here is talking eagerly, voluably and productively about a Fathers Movement but all the talk is around something based in and eminating from the United States. Or so it seems. It can not be so unfortunately as we exist in a very culturally diverse world.

    I work closely with our ‘brothers’ in the USA all the time but its only about sharing media info and other morale-related resources. The reality is that legally and politically we can do nothing to change the lot of American Dads and they can do little to reciprocate with Canadian, British, Australian and New Zealand Dads among many others.

    So it is then that in using the perspective of developing a national movement of our fractured and feuding Fathers Groups one has to first service the idea of individial national movements. To me the national movement in Canada has to be based in Ottawa just as the national movement in Australian must be in Canberra and the US one in Washington.

    So you see, we already suffer from regional differences right off the bat and we have to work on our own infrastructure first before liasing (as we must)with our American Brothers. I could forsee a North and South American Convention of course and this is part of an international effort. Certainly its all possible.

    Please remember as you think about this that we here in Canada suffer from the same social fractures, dividing egotism, rivalries, and petty jealousies as everybody else. After some time trying the theory and principle out here in Canada I have pretty much realized that the only way out of the ‘doldrums’ is to bypass the naysayers and the basement grumps and apply the “build it and they will come” scenario. I really believe this is the only way to go and you will have to do the same in the USA. In the meantime I suggest that ongoing liaison-even meetings on this issue be the order of the day. I am up for it. I have solid practical ideas aplenty. And experience to boot.

    The first issue is funding.

  • swannie52

    The old problem remains in that many activists and those they act for and support come from other countries. Thus it is a Fathers Rights movement scattered around the Globe with little or no liason capability-never mind planning and organozing potential.

    Everyone here is talking eagerly, voluably and productively about a Fathers Movement but all the talk is around something based in and eminating from the United States. Or so it seems. It can not be so unfortunately as we exist in a very culturally diverse world.

    I work closely with our ‘brothers’ in the USA all the time but its only about sharing media info and other morale-related resources. The reality is that legally and politically we can do nothing to change the lot of American Dads and they can do little to reciprocate with Canadian, British, Australian and New Zealand Dads among many others.

    So it is then that in using the perspective of developing a national movement of our fractured and feuding Fathers Groups one has to first service the idea of individial national movements. To me the national movement in Canada has to be based in Ottawa just as the national movement in Australian must be in Canberra and the US one in Washington.

    So you see, we already suffer from regional differences right off the bat and we have to work on our own infrastructure first before liasing (as we must)with our American Brothers. I could forsee a North and South American Convention of course and this is part of an international effort. Certainly its all possible.

    Please remember as you think about this that we here in Canada suffer from the same social fractures, dividing egotism, rivalries, and petty jealousies as everybody else. After some time trying the theory and principle out here in Canada I have pretty much realized that the only way out of the ‘doldrums’ is to bypass the naysayers and the basement grumps and apply the “build it and they will come” scenario. I really believe this is the only way to go and you will have to do the same in the USA. In the meantime I suggest that ongoing liaison-even meetings on this issue be the order of the day. I am up for it. I have solid practical ideas aplenty. And experience to boot.

    The first issue is funding.

  • Richard F. Doyle

    A few weeks age that brilliant Canadian sheep farmer Walter Schneider (See fathersforlife.org) suggested I start a blog on Mensnewsdaily.com regarding Unity and my book “Save the Males.”  I was initially reluctant because starting blogs, like starting websites and even organizations can have both good and bad consequences.  Having many different approaches to justice can be good, and blogs are a great tool to spread the word; but the danger is that the best messages may be diluted by less-reasoned ones put forth by the more glib and technically sophisticated among us.  Nevertheless, hoping my 40 years in these trenches would count for something, I blundered in bewildered by this new-fangled blog business (It’s hard to teach an old dog -  I’m 75 - new tricks).  I’ve been heartened by the responses this blog generated, and would like to address some of the issues raised:

    David, thanks for the plug for my book.  I consider you one of the most articulate men in the movement these days.

    Dennis, the feminist onslaught WAS “vocally challenged 20 years ago” and even well before that, but it was like shouting in a hurricane.  No one heard us, or wanted to.  You’re right about the need for a forum for the “little boys.”  They’re our best hope to convince the “big boys” to act like grown-ups and start cooperating.

    John, congratulations on buying my book.  If I considered the call to activism to be “secret knowledge,” would I have written 2 books on the subject and editorialized about it in The Liberator (now published by ACFC) for 35 years, or would the Minnesota Bar Association have felt the need to sue my divorce counseling service for “practicing law without a license”?  (We won in state Supreme Court and made them pay costs.)  Yours was an interesting quote from Judge Klas.  She has been a thorn in the side of Minnesota men for years.

    DSBooth, your observations on patriarchy are “right on.”  You must have studied Prof. Amneus’ books.  I agree that biased law is a lesser problem than biased interpretations of it, and made that point strongly in my recent book.

    Swannie52, you are absolutely right that ours should be an international effort with national divisions participating.  “Save the Males describes the international effort we mounted in the ‘70s, and how it can continue.  I caution however, against parochialism.  I also agree with you about the funding issue.

    Roger, I understand and empathize with your frustration (I’ve been jailed too).  “Save the Males” has an entire section on the positive aspects of militancy.   Nevertheless, profanity on this blog and shooting judges (Let’s not go beyond fanaticizing) won’t get us anywhere and does more harm than good.

    Thanks, guys, for great input.  It’s imperative that we get the attention of all ecumenical-minded activists and urge them to convince the major organizations to which they belong, or should, that it’s time, beyond time actually, to start working together.  Through this forum, we “little guys” can create significant pressure on the “big guys” in ACFC, NCFM (perhaps even CRC) and other opinion column sponsors to commence acting in concert.  This effort might snowball into just the ticket to coalesce the movement.  It’s all up to you participants.  As one of you said, “Let’s get R done.”
    --------------
    Addendum: I don’t pretend that my self-published book “Save the Males” is perfect.  It has flaws which I intend to correct in future printings.  I’d appreciate it if blogsters would petition their local libraries to order “Save the Males” (or even donate copies to them) and petition publications to review it (Liberal ones may pan it, but the word would still get out).  It is available at http://www.lulu.com/ mensdefense and Amazon.com or on order from Barnes & Noble.

  • Richard F. Doyle

    A few weeks age that brilliant Canadian sheep farmer Walter Schneider (See fathersforlife.org) suggested I start a blog on Mensnewsdaily.com regarding Unity and my book “Save the Males.”  I was initially reluctant because starting blogs, like starting websites and even organizations can have both good and bad consequences.  Having many different approaches to justice can be good, and blogs are a great tool to spread the word; but the danger is that the best messages may be diluted by less-reasoned ones put forth by the more glib and technically sophisticated among us.  Nevertheless, hoping my 40 years in these trenches would count for something, I blundered in bewildered by this new-fangled blog business (It’s hard to teach an old dog -  I’m 75 - new tricks).  I’ve been heartened by the responses this blog generated, and would like to address some of the issues raised:

    David, thanks for the plug for my book.  I consider you one of the most articulate men in the movement these days.

    Dennis, the feminist onslaught WAS “vocally challenged 20 years ago” and even well before that, but it was like shouting in a hurricane.  No one heard us, or wanted to.  You’re right about the need for a forum for the “little boys.”  They’re our best hope to convince the “big boys” to act like grown-ups and start cooperating.

    John, congratulations on buying my book.  If I considered the call to activism to be “secret knowledge,” would I have written 2 books on the subject and editorialized about it in The Liberator (now published by ACFC) for 35 years, or would the Minnesota Bar Association have felt the need to sue my divorce counseling service for “practicing law without a license”?  (We won in state Supreme Court and made them pay costs.)  Yours was an interesting quote from Judge Klas.  She has been a thorn in the side of Minnesota men for years.

    DSBooth, your observations on patriarchy are “right on.”  You must have studied Prof. Amneus’ books.  I agree that biased law is a lesser problem than biased interpretations of it, and made that point strongly in my recent book.

    Swannie52, you are absolutely right that ours should be an international effort with national divisions participating.  “Save the Males describes the international effort we mounted in the ‘70s, and how it can continue.  I caution however, against parochialism.  I also agree with you about the funding issue.

    Roger, I understand and empathize with your frustration (I’ve been jailed too).  “Save the Males” has an entire section on the positive aspects of militancy.   Nevertheless, profanity on this blog and shooting judges (Let’s not go beyond fanaticizing) won’t get us anywhere and does more harm than good.

    Thanks, guys, for great input.  It’s imperative that we get the attention of all ecumenical-minded activists and urge them to convince the major organizations to which they belong, or should, that it’s time, beyond time actually, to start working together.  Through this forum, we “little guys” can create significant pressure on the “big guys” in ACFC, NCFM (perhaps even CRC) and other opinion column sponsors to commence acting in concert.  This effort might snowball into just the ticket to coalesce the movement.  It’s all up to you participants.  As one of you said, “Let’s get R done.”
    --------------
    Addendum: I don’t pretend that my self-published book “Save the Males” is perfect.  It has flaws which I intend to correct in future printings.  I’d appreciate it if blogsters would petition their local libraries to order “Save the Males” (or even donate copies to them) and petition publications to review it (Liberal ones may pan it, but the word would still get out).  It is available at http://www.lulu.com/ mensdefense and Amazon.com or on order from Barnes & Noble.

  • Richard F. Doyle

    A few weeks age that brilliant Canadian sheep farmer Walter Schneider (See fathersforlife.org) suggested I start a blog on Mensnewsdaily.com regarding Unity and my book “Save the Males.”  I was initially reluctant because starting blogs, like starting websites and even organizations can have both good and bad consequences.  Having many different approaches to justice can be good, and blogs are a great tool to spread the word; but the danger is that the best messages may be diluted by less-reasoned ones put forth by the more glib and technically sophisticated among us.  Nevertheless, hoping my 40 years in these trenches would count for something, I blundered in bewildered by this new-fangled blog business (It’s hard to teach an old dog -  I’m 75 - new tricks).  I’ve been heartened by the responses this blog generated, and would like to address some of the issues raised:

    David, thanks for the plug for my book.  I consider you one of the most articulate men in the movement these days.

    Dennis, the feminist onslaught WAS “vocally challenged 20 years ago” and even well before that, but it was like shouting in a hurricane.  No one heard us, or wanted to.  You’re right about the need for a forum for the “little boys.”  They’re our best hope to convince the “big boys” to act like grown-ups and start cooperating.

    John, congratulations on buying my book.  If I considered the call to activism to be “secret knowledge,” would I have written 2 books on the subject and editorialized about it in The Liberator (now published by ACFC) for 35 years, or would the Minnesota Bar Association have felt the need to sue my divorce counseling service for “practicing law without a license”?  (We won in state Supreme Court and made them pay costs.)  Yours was an interesting quote from Judge Klas.  She has been a thorn in the side of Minnesota men for years.

    DSBooth, your observations on patriarchy are “right on.”  You must have studied Prof. Amneus’ books.  I agree that biased law is a lesser problem than biased interpretations of it, and made that point strongly in my recent book.

    Swannie52, you are absolutely right that ours should be an international effort with national divisions participating.  “Save the Males describes the international effort we mounted in the ‘70s, and how it can continue.  I caution however, against parochialism.  I also agree with you about the funding issue.

    Roger, I understand and empathize with your frustration (I’ve been jailed too).  “Save the Males” has an entire section on the positive aspects of militancy.   Nevertheless, profanity on this blog and shooting judges (Let’s not go beyond fanaticizing) won’t get us anywhere and does more harm than good.

    Thanks, guys, for great input.  It’s imperative that we get the attention of all ecumenical-minded activists and urge them to convince the major organizations to which they belong, or should, that it’s time, beyond time actually, to start working together.  Through this forum, we “little guys” can create significant pressure on the “big guys” in ACFC, NCFM (perhaps even CRC) and other opinion column sponsors to commence acting in concert.  This effort might snowball into just the ticket to coalesce the movement.  It’s all up to you participants.  As one of you said, “Let’s get R done.”

    --------------

    Addendum: I don’t pretend that my self-published book “Save the Males” is perfect.  It has flaws which I intend to correct in future printings.  I’d appreciate it if blogsters would petition their local libraries to order “Save the Males” (or even donate copies to them) and petition publications to review it (Liberal ones may pan it, but the word would still get out).  It is available at http://www.lulu.com/ mensdefense and Amazon.com or on order from Barnes & Noble.

  • http://www.antipeonage.0catch.com Roger Knight

    Richard F. Doyle said:

    “Roger, I understand and empathize with your frustration (I’ve been jailed too). “Save the Males” has an entire section on the positive aspects of militancy. Nevertheless, profanity on this blog and shooting judges (Let’s not go beyond fanaticizing) won’t get us anywhere and does more harm than good.”

    The profanity that you refer to, is in the context of expressing defiance to the tyrants in terms that CANNOT be mistaken.
    And therefore quite appropriate.
    If you are not willing to stand up to the tyrants and tell them in no uncertain terms that they have no control over you and no RIGHT to control over you, then you will never succeed in obtaining your freedom from them. And you won’t deserve it.
    If, because you are offended by my choice of terminology, you reject my suggested solutions, including screaming for the enforcement of the Peonage Law, declaring that there is no more excuse for violating the Constitution than there is for domestic violence, declaring that any use of legal process to coerce employment is declared null and void by the Antipeonage Act and a felony to boot, declaring that all support orders are null and void where imposed without any finding of wrongdoing or in disregard to “marital misconduct”, and so on, then what good are you to us?
    Feel free to express my ideas in more polite terms.
    Just because I do not sugarcoat my righteous anger does not mean you cannot.

    Now you talk about shooting judges. Well, if you carefully read what I say (yes I accept the risk that there are those who do not, but so far that does not include prosecutors foolishly charging me with any crime where they must prove “true threat”) you will notice that I did not say that shooting a judge was necessarily a good idea any more than Perry Manley’s suicide by cop was a good idea.
    I just refuse to condemn the shooting and will say that Judge Weller had it coming. He violated the Nevada Constitution and the United States Constitution that he swore to uphold. If you are taken aback by what I say about Judge Weller being a tyrant who deserved the fast moving lead treatment, you ought to take a good long look at Virginia’s state flag!
    The American Revolutionaries, including our first three Presidents, thought that “death to the tyrants” was a wise and necessary policy.

    As for the Judge Weller shooting doing more harm than good, except for Darren Mack personal circumstances, I don’t believe that is the case.

    Like I said, Americans understand the necessity for violent self defense. The proper way to respond when a Darren Mack shoots a judge, (if it was Darren, I’m not convinced, it’s not like he was the only one with a motive!) is to point out that Judge Weller was engaging in state sponsored armed robbery, extortion, peonage, and conspiracy (meaning two or more persons acting in concert) to deprive citizens of their civil rights. These are defined as CRIMES by our federal criminal code in provisions that do not list judicial enforcement of support orders by state courts to be an exception.

    Now, if anyone asserts that when a mugger requests that he hand over his wallet with a threat of force, that he has the right to respond with 200 grains of fast moving lead, that person is in no position to argue that the person who shot Judge Weller necessarily did anything morally wrong.
    Tactically wrong, perhaps, but not morally wrong.
    And such person certainly has no moral authority to criticize my statement of defiance of such tyrants with profanity sufficient to propery express the totality of this defiance.

    I mean, what exactly is the purpose of the Second Amendment?

  • http://www.antipeonage.0catch.com Roger Knight

    Richard F. Doyle said:

    “Roger, I understand and empathize with your frustration (I’ve been jailed too). “Save the Males” has an entire section on the positive aspects of militancy. Nevertheless, profanity on this blog and shooting judges (Let’s not go beyond fanaticizing) won’t get us anywhere and does more harm than good.”

    The profanity that you refer to, is in the context of expressing defiance to the tyrants in terms that CANNOT be mistaken.
    And therefore quite appropriate.
    If you are not willing to stand up to the tyrants and tell them in no uncertain terms that they have no control over you and no RIGHT to control over you, then you will never succeed in obtaining your freedom from them. And you won’t deserve it.
    If, because you are offended by my choice of terminology, you reject my suggested solutions, including screaming for the enforcement of the Peonage Law, declaring that there is no more excuse for violating the Constitution than there is for domestic violence, declaring that any use of legal process to coerce employment is declared null and void by the Antipeonage Act and a felony to boot, declaring that all support orders are null and void where imposed without any finding of wrongdoing or in disregard to “marital misconduct”, and so on, then what good are you to us?
    Feel free to express my ideas in more polite terms.
    Just because I do not sugarcoat my righteous anger does not mean you cannot.

    Now you talk about shooting judges. Well, if you carefully read what I say (yes I accept the risk that there are those who do not, but so far that does not include prosecutors foolishly charging me with any crime where they must prove “true threat”) you will notice that I did not say that shooting a judge was necessarily a good idea any more than Perry Manley’s suicide by cop was a good idea.
    I just refuse to condemn the shooting and will say that Judge Weller had it coming. He violated the Nevada Constitution and the United States Constitution that he swore to uphold. If you are taken aback by what I say about Judge Weller being a tyrant who deserved the fast moving lead treatment, you ought to take a good long look at Virginia’s state flag!
    The American Revolutionaries, including our first three Presidents, thought that “death to the tyrants” was a wise and necessary policy.

    As for the Judge Weller shooting doing more harm than good, except for Darren Mack personal circumstances, I don’t believe that is the case.

    Like I said, Americans understand the necessity for violent self defense. The proper way to respond when a Darren Mack shoots a judge, (if it was Darren, I’m not convinced, it’s not like he was the only one with a motive!) is to point out that Judge Weller was engaging in state sponsored armed robbery, extortion, peonage, and conspiracy (meaning two or more persons acting in concert) to deprive citizens of their civil rights. These are defined as CRIMES by our federal criminal code in provisions that do not list judicial enforcement of support orders by state courts to be an exception.

    Now, if anyone asserts that when a mugger requests that he hand over his wallet with a threat of force, that he has the right to respond with 200 grains of fast moving lead, that person is in no position to argue that the person who shot Judge Weller necessarily did anything morally wrong.
    Tactically wrong, perhaps, but not morally wrong.
    And such person certainly has no moral authority to criticize my statement of defiance of such tyrants with profanity sufficient to propery express the totality of this defiance.

    I mean, what exactly is the purpose of the Second Amendment?

  • http://www.antipeonage.0catch.com Roger Knight

    Richard F. Doyle said:

    “Roger, I understand and empathize with your frustration (I’ve been jailed too). “Save the Males” has an entire section on the positive aspects of militancy. Nevertheless, profanity on this blog and shooting judges (Let’s not go beyond fanaticizing) won’t get us anywhere and does more harm than good.”

    The profanity that you refer to, is in the context of expressing defiance to the tyrants in terms that CANNOT be mistaken.
    And therefore quite appropriate.
    If you are not willing to stand up to the tyrants and tell them in no uncertain terms that they have no control over you and no RIGHT to control over you, then you will never succeed in obtaining your freedom from them. And you won’t deserve it.
    If, because you are offended by my choice of terminology, you reject my suggested solutions, including screaming for the enforcement of the Peonage Law, declaring that there is no more excuse for violating the Constitution than there is for domestic violence, declaring that any use of legal process to coerce employment is declared null and void by the Antipeonage Act and a felony to boot, declaring that all support orders are null and void where imposed without any finding of wrongdoing or in disregard to “marital misconduct”, and so on, then what good are you to us?
    Feel free to express my ideas in more polite terms.
    Just because I do not sugarcoat my righteous anger does not mean you cannot.

    Now you talk about shooting judges. Well, if you carefully read what I say (yes I accept the risk that there are those who do not, but so far that does not include prosecutors foolishly charging me with any crime where they must prove “true threat”) you will notice that I did not say that shooting a judge was necessarily a good idea any more than Perry Manley’s suicide by cop was a good idea.
    I just refuse to condemn the shooting and will say that Judge Weller had it coming. He violated the Nevada Constitution and the United States Constitution that he swore to uphold. If you are taken aback by what I say about Judge Weller being a tyrant who deserved the fast moving lead treatment, you ought to take a good long look at Virginia’s state flag!
    The American Revolutionaries, including our first three Presidents, thought that “death to the tyrants” was a wise and necessary policy.

    As for the Judge Weller shooting doing more harm than good, except for Darren Mack personal circumstances, I don’t believe that is the case.

    Like I said, Americans understand the necessity for violent self defense. The proper way to respond when a Darren Mack shoots a judge, (if it was Darren, I’m not convinced, it’s not like he was the only one with a motive!) is to point out that Judge Weller was engaging in state sponsored armed robbery, extortion, peonage, and conspiracy (meaning two or more persons acting in concert) to deprive citizens of their civil rights. These are defined as CRIMES by our federal criminal code in provisions that do not list judicial enforcement of support orders by state courts to be an exception.

    Now, if anyone asserts that when a mugger requests that he hand over his wallet with a threat of force, that he has the right to respond with 200 grains of fast moving lead, that person is in no position to argue that the person who shot Judge Weller necessarily did anything morally wrong.
    Tactically wrong, perhaps, but not morally wrong.
    And such person certainly has no moral authority to criticize my statement of defiance of such tyrants with profanity sufficient to propery express the totality of this defiance.

    I mean, what exactly is the purpose of the Second Amendment?

  • http://citizensrule.net right2parent

    No-fault divorce was initially intended to be used when children were not involved, and both parties agreed. That may not be a bad idea. Maybe someday, the states can get a grip on that.

    Custody, or guardianship really has no legal connection to no-fault laws. They affect the husband and wife relationship only. Each state has its own history regarding guardianship laws, but Minnesota began to turn exclusively to procedure and laws regulating the placement of state wards and relying on “best interest” criteria with its lower legal standard in the late 1800s. Later cases built on this foundation. The earliest case cited was not coincidentally one of the first to use a new habeas corpus statute for “special proceedings.” As family court does now, it is assumed you understand the limited jurisdiction of the court you’re pleading in.

    Child support is a much easier subject to understand, and is a lot less heartache than a custody fight. It is also the cause I would pick to initially rally around. Anyone with an open child support case can challenge subject matter jurisdiction with a motion to dismiss. Anyone who feels he was wrongly characterized as an “absent parent” of a “dependent child” is on board. If a significant number of these hit the fan at the same time, and raised the same issue, it could generate a compelling force. These motions are cheap. Then, we would have the power to pursuade a decent law firm to mount a federal action. Individual litigants are too easily outgunned, especially a pro se. But, a successful national movement has to begin with these coordinated local efforts. I think we now have the tools to do that. Taking down the overbroad child support programs would give us the strength to challenge the somewhat tougher custody issues. No-fault divorce will die on the vine.

    These are separable issues, and sometimes you have to pick your fights. Fighting the affects of feminism is a pretty broad plan that encompasses quite a variety of issues. Lets start with something we can’t loose. The rest will fall like the house of cards that it is. When you see this bus coming, jump on.

  • http://citizensrule.net right2parent

    No-fault divorce was initially intended to be used when children were not involved, and both parties agreed. That may not be a bad idea. Maybe someday, the states can get a grip on that.

    Custody, or guardianship really has no legal connection to no-fault laws. They affect the husband and wife relationship only. Each state has its own history regarding guardianship laws, but Minnesota began to turn exclusively to procedure and laws regulating the placement of state wards and relying on “best interest” criteria with its lower legal standard in the late 1800s. Later cases built on this foundation. The earliest case cited was not coincidentally one of the first to use a new habeas corpus statute for “special proceedings.” As family court does now, it is assumed you understand the limited jurisdiction of the court you’re pleading in.

    Child support is a much easier subject to understand, and is a lot less heartache than a custody fight. It is also the cause I would pick to initially rally around. Anyone with an open child support case can challenge subject matter jurisdiction with a motion to dismiss. Anyone who feels he was wrongly characterized as an “absent parent” of a “dependent child” is on board. If a significant number of these hit the fan at the same time, and raised the same issue, it could generate a compelling force. These motions are cheap. Then, we would have the power to pursuade a decent law firm to mount a federal action. Individual litigants are too easily outgunned, especially a pro se. But, a successful national movement has to begin with these coordinated local efforts. I think we now have the tools to do that. Taking down the overbroad child support programs would give us the strength to challenge the somewhat tougher custody issues. No-fault divorce will die on the vine.

    These are separable issues, and sometimes you have to pick your fights. Fighting the affects of feminism is a pretty broad plan that encompasses quite a variety of issues. Lets start with something we can’t loose. The rest will fall like the house of cards that it is. When you see this bus coming, jump on.

  • http://citizensrule.net right2parent

    No-fault divorce was initially intended to be used when children were not involved, and both parties agreed. That may not be a bad idea. Maybe someday, the states can get a grip on that.

    Custody, or guardianship really has no legal connection to no-fault laws. They affect the husband and wife relationship only. Each state has its own history regarding guardianship laws, but Minnesota began to turn exclusively to procedure and laws regulating the placement of state wards and relying on “best interest” criteria with its lower legal standard in the late 1800s. Later cases built on this foundation. The earliest case cited was not coincidentally one of the first to use a new habeas corpus statute for “special proceedings.” As family court does now, it is assumed you understand the limited jurisdiction of the court you’re pleading in.

    Child support is a much easier subject to understand, and is a lot less heartache than a custody fight. It is also the cause I would pick to initially rally around. Anyone with an open child support case can challenge subject matter jurisdiction with a motion to dismiss. Anyone who feels he was wrongly characterized as an “absent parent” of a “dependent child” is on board. If a significant number of these hit the fan at the same time, and raised the same issue, it could generate a compelling force. These motions are cheap. Then, we would have the power to pursuade a decent law firm to mount a federal action. Individual litigants are too easily outgunned, especially a pro se. But, a successful national movement has to begin with these coordinated local efforts. I think we now have the tools to do that. Taking down the overbroad child support programs would give us the strength to challenge the somewhat tougher custody issues. No-fault divorce will die on the vine.

    These are separable issues, and sometimes you have to pick your fights. Fighting the affects of feminism is a pretty broad plan that encompasses quite a variety of issues. Lets start with something we can’t loose. The rest will fall like the house of cards that it is. When you see this bus coming, jump on.

  • wls

    The prediction that children would benefit by
    being relieved of being forced to grow up in
    unhappy families, was one of the more widely
    touted advantages of no-fault at the time the
    notion was introduced.

    Two bills to allow covenant marriages, or elective
    `fault’ divorce at the beginning of a marriage both
    failed this past session in the California
    Legislature: there was essentially zero public
    support.

    The problem with the `movement’ to reform family
    court is that it utterly fails, or it must be said,
    refuses, to engage the enemy: to become involved
    in the process by which laws and policies are
    made.

  • wls

    The prediction that children would benefit by
    being relieved of being forced to grow up in
    unhappy families, was one of the more widely
    touted advantages of no-fault at the time the
    notion was introduced.

    Two bills to allow covenant marriages, or elective
    `fault’ divorce at the beginning of a marriage both
    failed this past session in the California
    Legislature: there was essentially zero public
    support.

    The problem with the `movement’ to reform family
    court is that it utterly fails, or it must be said,
    refuses, to engage the enemy: to become involved
    in the process by which laws and policies are
    made.

  • wls

    The prediction that children would benefit by
    being relieved of being forced to grow up in
    unhappy families, was one of the more widely
    touted advantages of no-fault at the time the
    notion was introduced.

    Two bills to allow covenant marriages, or elective
    `fault’ divorce at the beginning of a marriage both
    failed this past session in the California
    Legislature: there was essentially zero public
    support.

    The problem with the `movement’ to reform family
    court is that it utterly fails, or it must be said,
    refuses, to engage the enemy: to become involved
    in the process by which laws and policies are
    made.

  • http://fathersforlife.org Walter Schneider

    This relates to a variety of issues, not all obviously related to what we want to be about, but I think that most is.

    Richard, I agree with you on the difficulties of learning how to blog. It just now took me some time and considerable effort to learn how to insert a line break between paragraphs on this blog.

    I don’t know whether the others puzzled by it managed to solve that problem, but when composing and editing a comment, hit and hold it down while you hit twice. For reasons unknown, WordPress (the software package for this blog) does not like paragraph breaks. It replaces them with single line breaks.

    The need for after-the-thought-editing, as in “dang it, I shouldn’t have hit “, can be prevented by doing the editing before the fact; if you compose your comment in an HTML editor. Do your editing and your spell-checking in that, then use copy and paste command to put all of it into the blog-comment text box.

    That appears to work on all WordPress blogs. I don’t know whether the method for inserting linebreaks works universally on all blogs.

    DadWithGirls, welcome to the typing-challenged. I mostly type with two fingers, although at times I forget myself and bring two more fingers and sometimes even my thumbs into play. Typing at close to 50 words a minute is just about the right speed for me. It gives me a little more time to let my brain catch up to what my fingers are doing.
    Other than that, typos are far more obvious to the one that makes them than to anyone else.

    Richard, you are right on the issue of language, namely that swearing should not be acceptable and that calls for, or even allusions to incitement of, violence should not be made on this blog. In addition, although that has not intentionally happened yet on this blog, we should not permit ad-hominem attacks, that is, attacks on an individual’s character rather than on the contentions in an argument if disagreement should occur.

    Roger, I know that you are not quite in agreement with the restriction on strong language, but I am and have been around almost as long as Richard has been (I’m 70). I found that we had a much better (at least more comfortable) world when swearing in good company or on TV was not permissible, if for no other reason than that then it seemed to cast doubt on the offending individual’s intellect.

    We gained nothing when we began to coarsen social discourse through lowering standards for language usage down to the lowest common denominator.

    We are in good company here, aren’t we? Moreover, this blog is apparently not moderated. It is open to the public for viewing, and anything we say can and will be held against us, possibly even in the courts…

    This morning we went to one of our friend’s funeral services, Jerry Lien, a biker, a poet (he never studied poetry, but his poetry was appreciated by many in this area), a divorced father who never lost touch with his children, a man who loved his children and whose children loved him back in return until the day he died.

    Nevertheless, Jerry drank, often and often much. Two weeks ago he still looked healthy, but then his liver gave out, his kidneys shut down, and within a few days he died, 68 years old. He began drinking after his divorce, after his livelihood became food for the ravenous legal industry.

    Far too many divorced men go down that road, and some of them come to the end a lot sooner. That is one of the things we’ve got to work on to change for the better.

    I put Jerry’s last poem up on the Net “Life’s Thin Line” http://blog.fathersforlife.org/2006/10/07/lifes-thin-line/ .

    About the nature of the scope of this blog, national vs. international:

    Those of us who studied the communist roots of the redfems’ ideology and agenda know that at the core of that ideology is the original strategy for the implementation of the international agenda for the planned destruction of the family, so that out of the resulting ruins and debris of a no-longer well-functioning society the New World Order can be constructed.

    There is of course a need for national organizations and cooperation between them, but it is also imperative that all of those organizations strive to achieve common international goals and objectives for the men’s unity movement.

    The redfems that burned their bras in the ’60s did not wither and die away. They networked, became respectable, moved into position of power and influence in all sectors and institutions of society, and the now network far more intensely and effectively than they did when they first established their connections while they were then still considered to be somewhat deranged.

    Their most influential networking is being done through women’s law societies. It is absolutely no accident that many legislative changes are being brought into our respective nations through UN resolutions that are then brought to our nations through the back door through the justice departments, to bear on us without legislative reviews, discussion and approval.

    There is far more to their strategy and to the nature of its origins. The redfem network is nothing but an agent of extremely powerful forces that steer and control the shadow governments of the world who in turn steer and control national political and government institutions.

    Don’t scoff at those ideas and do not write them off as a conspiracy theory.

    Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The most-powerful have no need to conspire. They are in control, and they just do.

    swannie52 stated that funding or rather the lack of it for what we stand for is an issue of concern. He is right, but don’t look for funding from the same sources that fund the redfems. We need to gain mass-appeal and garner active and financial support from the grass roots.

    We must also make sure that we do what David Usher described, work on getting changes implemented from the top down.

    Still, once we have enough appeal with the masses, we can become and organize an effective opposition to funding for redfem causes. Popular support for feminism has become eroded during the past few years. That needs to be accelerated.

    Some headway in that respect is being made in Canada. Our new conservative government announced just a few days ago (Sep. 25) that will abolish the Canadian Law Commission (a feminist-dominated and -controlled government organization that brought about most of the deconstructive social changes that came to afflict us ever since the 1960s). It also announced a $5 million cutback in the funding over two years for another government department, Status of Women Canada. In all, the cutbacks of funding for causes and organizations with almost exclusively Liberal Party origins amount to $2 billion.
    (See Ottawa’s $2-billion hit list http://blog.fathersforlife.org/2006/09/27/ottawas-2-billion-hit-list/ )

    It seems to me that we can gain far more support by actively supporting pro-family issues than we can by claiming that the injuries received by the main victims of the divorce epidemic, namely fathers and children, need to be addressed. The pains of fathers and their children are not the primary problem causes. The primary problem cause is radical feminism and its agenda for the planned destruction of the family.

    Radical feminism never had and never will have sufficient mass appeal to be able to survive on its own. Cut government funding for feminist organizations, and feminism and all of its manifestations will wither and die.

    Than can and will be done. It is up to us to do all we can to help make it happen before there is nothing left to salvage.

  • http://fathersforlife.org Walter Schneider

    This relates to a variety of issues, not all obviously related to what we want to be about, but I think that most is.

    Richard, I agree with you on the difficulties of learning how to blog. It just now took me some time and considerable effort to learn how to insert a line break between paragraphs on this blog.

    I don’t know whether the others puzzled by it managed to solve that problem, but when composing and editing a comment, hit and hold it down while you hit twice. For reasons unknown, WordPress (the software package for this blog) does not like paragraph breaks. It replaces them with single line breaks.

    The need for after-the-thought-editing, as in “dang it, I shouldn’t have hit “, can be prevented by doing the editing before the fact; if you compose your comment in an HTML editor. Do your editing and your spell-checking in that, then use copy and paste command to put all of it into the blog-comment text box.

    That appears to work on all WordPress blogs. I don’t know whether the method for inserting linebreaks works universally on all blogs.

    DadWithGirls, welcome to the typing-challenged. I mostly type with two fingers, although at times I forget myself and bring two more fingers and sometimes even my thumbs into play. Typing at close to 50 words a minute is just about the right speed for me. It gives me a little more time to let my brain catch up to what my fingers are doing.
    Other than that, typos are far more obvious to the one that makes them than to anyone else.

    Richard, you are right on the issue of language, namely that swearing should not be acceptable and that calls for, or even allusions to incitement of, violence should not be made on this blog. In addition, although that has not intentionally happened yet on this blog, we should not permit ad-hominem attacks, that is, attacks on an individual’s character rather than on the contentions in an argument if disagreement should occur.

    Roger, I know that you are not quite in agreement with the restriction on strong language, but I am and have been around almost as long as Richard has been (I’m 70). I found that we had a much better (at least more comfortable) world when swearing in good company or on TV was not permissible, if for no other reason than that then it seemed to cast doubt on the offending individual’s intellect.

    We gained nothing when we began to coarsen social discourse through lowering standards for language usage down to the lowest common denominator.

    We are in good company here, aren’t we? Moreover, this blog is apparently not moderated. It is open to the public for viewing, and anything we say can and will be held against us, possibly even in the courts…

    This morning we went to one of our friend’s funeral services, Jerry Lien, a biker, a poet (he never studied poetry, but his poetry was appreciated by many in this area), a divorced father who never lost touch with his children, a man who loved his children and whose children loved him back in return until the day he died.

    Nevertheless, Jerry drank, often and often much. Two weeks ago he still looked healthy, but then his liver gave out, his kidneys shut down, and within a few days he died, 68 years old. He began drinking after his divorce, after his livelihood became food for the ravenous legal industry.

    Far too many divorced men go down that road, and some of them come to the end a lot sooner. That is one of the things we’ve got to work on to change for the better.

    I put Jerry’s last poem up on the Net “Life’s Thin Line” http://blog.fathersforlife.org/2006/10/07/lifes-thin-line/ .

    About the nature of the scope of this blog, national vs. international:

    Those of us who studied the communist roots of the redfems’ ideology and agenda know that at the core of that ideology is the original strategy for the implementation of the international agenda for the planned destruction of the family, so that out of the resulting ruins and debris of a no-longer well-functioning society the New World Order can be constructed.

    There is of course a need for national organizations and cooperation between them, but it is also imperative that all of those organizations strive to achieve common international goals and objectives for the men’s unity movement.

    The redfems that burned their bras in the ’60s did not wither and die away. They networked, became respectable, moved into position of power and influence in all sectors and institutions of society, and the now network far more intensely and effectively than they did when they first established their connections while they were then still considered to be somewhat deranged.

    Their most influential networking is being done through women’s law societies. It is absolutely no accident that many legislative changes are being brought into our respective nations through UN resolutions that are then brought to our nations through the back door through the justice departments, to bear on us without legislative reviews, discussion and approval.

    There is far more to their strategy and to the nature of its origins. The redfem network is nothing but an agent of extremely powerful forces that steer and control the shadow governments of the world who in turn steer and control national political and government institutions.

    Don’t scoff at those ideas and do not write them off as a conspiracy theory.

    Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The most-powerful have no need to conspire. They are in control, and they just do.

    swannie52 stated that funding or rather the lack of it for what we stand for is an issue of concern. He is right, but don’t look for funding from the same sources that fund the redfems. We need to gain mass-appeal and garner active and financial support from the grass roots.

    We must also make sure that we do what David Usher described, work on getting changes implemented from the top down.

    Still, once we have enough appeal with the masses, we can become and organize an effective opposition to funding for redfem causes. Popular support for feminism has become eroded during the past few years. That needs to be accelerated.

    Some headway in that respect is being made in Canada. Our new conservative government announced just a few days ago (Sep. 25) that will abolish the Canadian Law Commission (a feminist-dominated and -controlled government organization that brought about most of the deconstructive social changes that came to afflict us ever since the 1960s). It also announced a $5 million cutback in the funding over two years for another government department, Status of Women Canada. In all, the cutbacks of funding for causes and organizations with almost exclusively Liberal Party origins amount to $2 billion.
    (See Ottawa’s $2-billion hit list http://blog.fathersforlife.org/2006/09/27/ottawas-2-billion-hit-list/ )

    It seems to me that we can gain far more support by actively supporting pro-family issues than we can by claiming that the injuries received by the main victims of the divorce epidemic, namely fathers and children, need to be addressed. The pains of fathers and their children are not the primary problem causes. The primary problem cause is radical feminism and its agenda for the planned destruction of the family.

    Radical feminism never had and never will have sufficient mass appeal to be able to survive on its own. Cut government funding for feminist organizations, and feminism and all of its manifestations will wither and die.

    Than can and will be done. It is up to us to do all we can to help make it happen before there is nothing left to salvage.

  • http://fathersforlife.org Walter Schneider

    This relates to a variety of issues, not all obviously related to what we want to be about, but I think that most is.

    Richard, I agree with you on the difficulties of learning how to blog. It just now took me some time and considerable effort to learn how to insert a line break between paragraphs on this blog.

    I don’t know whether the others puzzled by it managed to solve that problem, but when composing and editing a comment, hit and hold it down while you hit twice. For reasons unknown, WordPress (the software package for this blog) does not like paragraph breaks. It replaces them with single line breaks.

    The need for after-the-thought-editing, as in “dang it, I shouldn’t have hit “, can be prevented by doing the editing before the fact; if you compose your comment in an HTML editor. Do your editing and your spell-checking in that, then use copy and paste command to put all of it into the blog-comment text box.

    That appears to work on all WordPress blogs. I don’t know whether the method for inserting linebreaks works universally on all blogs.

    DadWithGirls, welcome to the typing-challenged. I mostly type with two fingers, although at times I forget myself and bring two more fingers and sometimes even my thumbs into play. Typing at close to 50 words a minute is just about the right speed for me. It gives me a little more time to let my brain catch up to what my fingers are doing.
    Other than that, typos are far more obvious to the one that makes them than to anyone else.

    Richard, you are right on the issue of language, namely that swearing should not be acceptable and that calls for, or even allusions to incitement of, violence should not be made on this blog. In addition, although that has not intentionally happened yet on this blog, we should not permit ad-hominem attacks, that is, attacks on an individual’s character rather than on the contentions in an argument if disagreement should occur.

    Roger, I know that you are not quite in agreement with the restriction on strong language, but I am and have been around almost as long as Richard has been (I’m 70). I found that we had a much better (at least more comfortable) world when swearing in good company or on TV was not permissible, if for no other reason than that then it seemed to cast doubt on the offending individual’s intellect.

    We gained nothing when we began to coarsen social discourse through lowering standards for language usage down to the lowest common denominator.

    We are in good company here, aren’t we? Moreover, this blog is apparently not moderated. It is open to the public for viewing, and anything we say can and will be held against us, possibly even in the courts…

    This morning we went to one of our friend’s funeral services, Jerry Lien, a biker, a poet (he never studied poetry, but his poetry was appreciated by many in this area), a divorced father who never lost touch with his children, a man who loved his children and whose children loved him back in return until the day he died.

    Nevertheless, Jerry drank, often and often much. Two weeks ago he still looked healthy, but then his liver gave out, his kidneys shut down, and within a few days he died, 68 years old. He began drinking after his divorce, after his livelihood became food for the ravenous legal industry.

    Far too many divorced men go down that road, and some of them come to the end a lot sooner. That is one of the things we’ve got to work on to change for the better.

    I put Jerry’s last poem up on the Net “Life’s Thin Line” http://blog.fathersforlife.org/2006/10/07/lifes-thin-line/ .

    About the nature of the scope of this blog, national vs. international:

    Those of us who studied the communist roots of the redfems’ ideology and agenda know that at the core of that ideology is the original strategy for the implementation of the international agenda for the planned destruction of the family, so that out of the resulting ruins and debris of a no-longer well-functioning society the New World Order can be constructed.

    There is of course a need for national organizations and cooperation between them, but it is also imperative that all of those organizations strive to achieve common international goals and objectives for the men’s unity movement.

    The redfems that burned their bras in the ’60s did not wither and die away. They networked, became respectable, moved into position of power and influence in all sectors and institutions of society, and the now network far more intensely and effectively than they did when they first established their connections while they were then still considered to be somewhat deranged.

    Their most influential networking is being done through women’s law societies. It is absolutely no accident that many legislative changes are being brought into our respective nations through UN resolutions that are then brought to our nations through the back door through the justice departments, to bear on us without legislative reviews, discussion and approval.

    There is far more to their strategy and to the nature of its origins. The redfem network is nothing but an agent of extremely powerful forces that steer and control the shadow governments of the world who in turn steer and control national political and government institutions.

    Don’t scoff at those ideas and do not write them off as a conspiracy theory.

    Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The most-powerful have no need to conspire. They are in control, and they just do.

    swannie52 stated that funding or rather the lack of it for what we stand for is an issue of concern. He is right, but don’t look for funding from the same sources that fund the redfems. We need to gain mass-appeal and garner active and financial support from the grass roots.

    We must also make sure that we do what David Usher described, work on getting changes implemented from the top down.

    Still, once we have enough appeal with the masses, we can become and organize an effective opposition to funding for redfem causes. Popular support for feminism has become eroded during the past few years. That needs to be accelerated.

    Some headway in that respect is being made in Canada. Our new conservative government announced just a few days ago (Sep. 25) that will abolish the Canadian Law Commission (a feminist-dominated and -controlled government organization that brought about most of the deconstructive social changes that came to afflict us ever since the 1960s). It also announced a $5 million cutback in the funding over two years for another government department, Status of Women Canada. In all, the cutbacks of funding for causes and organizations with almost exclusively Liberal Party origins amount to $2 billion.
    (See Ottawa’s $2-billion hit list http://blog.fathersforlife.org/2006/09/27/ottawas-2-billion-hit-list/ )

    It seems to me that we can gain far more support by actively supporting pro-family issues than we can by claiming that the injuries received by the main victims of the divorce epidemic, namely fathers and children, need to be addressed. The pains of fathers and their children are not the primary problem causes. The primary problem cause is radical feminism and its agenda for the planned destruction of the family.

    Radical feminism never had and never will have sufficient mass appeal to be able to survive on its own. Cut government funding for feminist organizations, and feminism and all of its manifestations will wither and die.

    Than can and will be done. It is up to us to do all we can to help make it happen before there is nothing left to salvage.

  • http://fathersforlife.org Walter Schneider

    I keep forgetting that the blog will not accept any character string enclosed by chevrons.

    A few word went missing in my previous comment. I will show the corrected phrases one more time:

    …comment, [to insert a line break] hit “shift” and hold it down while you hit “enter” twice.

    …after-the-thought-editing, as in “dang it, I shouldn’t have hit “enter”",…

  • http://fathersforlife.org Walter Schneider

    I keep forgetting that the blog will not accept any character string enclosed by chevrons.

    A few word went missing in my previous comment. I will show the corrected phrases one more time:

    …comment, [to insert a line break] hit “shift” and hold it down while you hit “enter” twice.

    …after-the-thought-editing, as in “dang it, I shouldn’t have hit “enter”",…

  • http://fathersforlife.org Walter Schneider

    I keep forgetting that the blog will not accept any character string enclosed by chevrons.

    A few word went missing in my previous comment. I will show the corrected phrases one more time:

    …comment, [to insert a line break] hit “shift” and hold it down while you hit “enter” twice.

    …after-the-thought-editing, as in “dang it, I shouldn’t have hit “enter”",…

  • http://citizensrule.net right2parent

    The VAWA was just reauthorized with overwhelming support. I heard little debate, appart from a few articles from Phyllis Schlafly and such. That was discraceful.

  • http://citizensrule.net right2parent

    The VAWA was just reauthorized with overwhelming support. I heard little debate, appart from a few articles from Phyllis Schlafly and such. That was discraceful.

  • http://citizensrule.net right2parent

    The VAWA was just reauthorized with overwhelming support. I heard little debate, appart from a few articles from Phyllis Schlafly and such. That was discraceful.

  • wls

    Certain men’s movement `leaders’ urged everybody
    NOT to lobby Congress on VAWA: they wanted that
    entire field for themselves. They made up a
    story that “loose canon advocacy” in a state
    legislature had scuttled an important pro-father
    bill, than claimed they had successfully amended
    VAWA to provide shelter services for male victims.
    Has ANYBODY seen anything like that, since the
    renewed law has gone into effect??

    There’s also a guy who now says he got the FY 07
    federal budget for child support enforcement cut,
    such that we should now be starting to see
    significantly less harassing IV-D agency activity. . . .

  • wls

    Certain men’s movement `leaders’ urged everybody
    NOT to lobby Congress on VAWA: they wanted that
    entire field for themselves. They made up a
    story that “loose canon advocacy” in a state
    legislature had scuttled an important pro-father
    bill, than claimed they had successfully amended
    VAWA to provide shelter services for male victims.
    Has ANYBODY seen anything like that, since the
    renewed law has gone into effect??

    There’s also a guy who now says he got the FY 07
    federal budget for child support enforcement cut,
    such that we should now be starting to see
    significantly less harassing IV-D agency activity. . . .

  • wls

    Certain men’s movement `leaders’ urged everybody
    NOT to lobby Congress on VAWA: they wanted that
    entire field for themselves. They made up a
    story that “loose canon advocacy” in a state
    legislature had scuttled an important pro-father
    bill, than claimed they had successfully amended
    VAWA to provide shelter services for male victims.
    Has ANYBODY seen anything like that, since the
    renewed law has gone into effect??

    There’s also a guy who now says he got the FY 07
    federal budget for child support enforcement cut,
    such that we should now be starting to see
    significantly less harassing IV-D agency activity. . . .

  • Richard F. Doyle

    Gents, Let’s not get ahead of ourselves by proposing various tactics now, such as opposition to no-fault divorce, however excellent those tactics may be.  That’s what bogged the movement down for decades.

    I suggest it is imperative to determine Ends to which we can all agree.  Only then should we address the Means of achieving those ends.  To make analogy: Build the foundation before building upper storey rooms.  In my initial submission to this blog I proposed the following Means: “To preserve the traditional nuclear family through restoration of equal dignity and equal (not identical) rights under the law for all male persons across a broad spectrum of life, including divorce, employment, health and crime punishment.”  Whatever End is eventually chosen, it must precede the Means to that End.

    David Usher and others suggested forming a new organization to pursue our goals.  Certainly organization is necessary, but it may not have to be new.  Men’s Equality Now (MEN) International was formed in the 1970s.  It has a Constitution and By-Laws (in need of updating), and - best of all - it has that hard-to-obtain IRS 501 (c) (3) umbrella status.  Granted, its gender-orientation may not be as politically correct as a pro-family one, but that’s a matter to be addressed when determining Ends.

    Also necessary are common information forums.  Many now exist.  We need only choose the best.

    Respectfully submitted.  RFD

  • Richard F. Doyle

    Gents, Let’s not get ahead of ourselves by proposing various tactics now, such as opposition to no-fault divorce, however excellent those tactics may be.  That’s what bogged the movement down for decades.

    I suggest it is imperative to determine Ends to which we can all agree.  Only then should we address the Means of achieving those ends.  To make analogy: Build the foundation before building upper storey rooms.  In my initial submission to this blog I proposed the following Means: “To preserve the traditional nuclear family through restoration of equal dignity and equal (not identical) rights under the law for all male persons across a broad spectrum of life, including divorce, employment, health and crime punishment.”  Whatever End is eventually chosen, it must precede the Means to that End.

    David Usher and others suggested forming a new organization to pursue our goals.  Certainly organization is necessary, but it may not have to be new.  Men’s Equality Now (MEN) International was formed in the 1970s.  It has a Constitution and By-Laws (in need of updating), and - best of all - it has that hard-to-obtain IRS 501 (c) (3) umbrella status.  Granted, its gender-orientation may not be as politically correct as a pro-family one, but that’s a matter to be addressed when determining Ends.

    Also necessary are common information forums.  Many now exist.  We need only choose the best.

    Respectfully submitted.  RFD

  • Richard F. Doyle

    Gents, Let’s not get ahead of ourselves by proposing various tactics now, such as opposition to no-fault divorce, however excellent those tactics may be.  That’s what bogged the movement down for decades.

    I suggest it is imperative to determine Ends to which we can all agree.  Only then should we address the Means of achieving those ends.  To make analogy: Build the foundation before building upper storey rooms.  In my initial submission to this blog I proposed the following Means: “To preserve the traditional nuclear family through restoration of equal dignity and equal (not identical) rights under the law for all male persons across a broad spectrum of life, including divorce, employment, health and crime punishment.”  Whatever End is eventually chosen, it must precede the Means to that End.

    David Usher and others suggested forming a new organization to pursue our goals.  Certainly organization is necessary, but it may not have to be new.  Men’s Equality Now (MEN) International was formed in the 1970s.  It has a Constitution and By-Laws (in need of updating), and - best of all - it has that hard-to-obtain IRS 501 (c) (3) umbrella status.  Granted, its gender-orientation may not be as politically correct as a pro-family one, but that’s a matter to be addressed when determining Ends.

    Also necessary are common information forums.  Many now exist.  We need only choose the best.

    Respectfully submitted.  RFD

  • wls

    Men should just start working on specific problems
    and create the organization needed as they go along.

    Most of these are local: is the domestic violence
    shelter in your neighborhood subverting custody
    orders? Educate the public and go after the
    shelter’s funding source. Is there legislation
    to expand the child support enforcement bureaucracy
    pending in your state capitol? Lobby against it:
    send the message that that’s not the way to help
    children. Etc.

  • wls

    Men should just start working on specific problems
    and create the organization needed as they go along.

    Most of these are local: is the domestic violence
    shelter in your neighborhood subverting custody
    orders? Educate the public and go after the
    shelter’s funding source. Is there legislation
    to expand the child support enforcement bureaucracy
    pending in your state capitol? Lobby against it:
    send the message that that’s not the way to help
    children. Etc.

  • wls

    Men should just start working on specific problems
    and create the organization needed as they go along.

    Most of these are local: is the domestic violence
    shelter in your neighborhood subverting custody
    orders? Educate the public and go after the
    shelter’s funding source. Is there legislation
    to expand the child support enforcement bureaucracy
    pending in your state capitol? Lobby against it:
    send the message that that’s not the way to help
    children. Etc.

  • http://citizensrule.net right2parent

    Richard,
    From your last: “Let’s not get ahead of ourselves by proposing various tactics now,… That’s what bogged the movement down for decades.”

    I think the thing that has bogged us down is people trying to form a “new” organization that cried for some feel good, throw me a bone legislation. Coordination amoung the many active organizations on a particular project, it seems to me, would be more effective. Not all organizations are going to be receptive to all such projects, but all the members should be reachable with a little coordination. The grass roots need a common goal. If you want to bring them to their knees, try thousands of pro se motions across the country raising the only issue they don’t want to deal with. Show me how the agency determined that my children are “dependent children” (the subject of a title IV-D child support order) under the enabling legislation!

  • http://citizensrule.net right2parent

    Richard,
    From your last: “Let’s not get ahead of ourselves by proposing various tactics now,… That’s what bogged the movement down for decades.”

    I think the thing that has bogged us down is people trying to form a “new” organization that cried for some feel good, throw me a bone legislation. Coordination amoung the many active organizations on a particular project, it seems to me, would be more effective. Not all organizations are going to be receptive to all such projects, but all the members should be reachable with a little coordination. The grass roots need a common goal. If you want to bring them to their knees, try thousands of pro se motions across the country raising the only issue they don’t want to deal with. Show me how the agency determined that my children are “dependent children” (the subject of a title IV-D child support order) under the enabling legislation!

  • http://citizensrule.net right2parent

    Richard,
    From your last: “Let’s not get ahead of ourselves by proposing various tactics now,… That’s what bogged the movement down for decades.”

    I think the thing that has bogged us down is people trying to form a “new” organization that cried for some feel good, throw me a bone legislation. Coordination amoung the many active organizations on a particular project, it seems to me, would be more effective. Not all organizations are going to be receptive to all such projects, but all the members should be reachable with a little coordination. The grass roots need a common goal. If you want to bring them to their knees, try thousands of pro se motions across the country raising the only issue they don’t want to deal with. Show me how the agency determined that my children are “dependent children” (the subject of a title IV-D child support order) under the enabling legislation!

  • http://fathersforlife.org Walter Schneider

    Things have been quiet on this blog for a few days, so I thought to summarize my thoughts on what has been stated so far.

    It not clear that a focus has emerged. The majority of the posts deal with problem symptoms.

    No problem has ever been successfully solved by addressing its symptoms.

    Successful problem solving requires the eradication of a given problem’s root causes.

    Problem symptoms will always be the root causes of other problems (e.g.: separations and divorces cause poverty, fatherlessness, criminality and a plethora of other social problems).

    It will do little good to alleviate the consequences of problem symptoms. Efforts spent on doing that are largely wasted and futile. Besides, those efforts would be a never-ending process, as the problem remains and continues to produce its symptoms.

    The most effective problem solution is the one that eliminates the root causes of the problem whose symptoms plague us. That will put an end to that problem and its symptoms. Thereby the whole system of problems for which the eliminated problem symptoms were the root causes will cease to exist.

    For that latter approach to problem solving to work it is necessary for a critical mass of people to agree on what the nature of the problem is that needs to be addressed and also to agree that the solution sought is necessary, affordable and feasible. The required critical mass will not be reached until the proponents of the best problem solution become a social force that has more influence than its opponents do.

    –WHS

  • http://fathersforlife.org Walter Schneider

    Things have been quiet on this blog for a few days, so I thought to summarize my thoughts on what has been stated so far.

    It not clear that a focus has emerged. The majority of the posts deal with problem symptoms.

    No problem has ever been successfully solved by addressing its symptoms.

    Successful problem solving requires the eradication of a given problem’s root causes.

    Problem symptoms will always be the root causes of other problems (e.g.: separations and divorces cause poverty, fatherlessness, criminality and a plethora of other social problems).

    It will do little good to alleviate the consequences of problem symptoms. Efforts spent on doing that are largely wasted and futile. Besides, those efforts would be a never-ending process, as the problem remains and continues to produce its symptoms.

    The most effective problem solution is the one that eliminates the root causes of the problem whose symptoms plague us. That will put an end to that problem and its symptoms. Thereby the whole system of problems for which the eliminated problem symptoms were the root causes will cease to exist.

    For that latter approach to problem solving to work it is necessary for a critical mass of people to agree on what the nature of the problem is that needs to be addressed and also to agree that the solution sought is necessary, affordable and feasible. The required critical mass will not be reached until the proponents of the best problem solution become a social force that has more influence than its opponents do.

    –WHS

  • http://fathersforlife.org Walter Schneider

    Things have been quiet on this blog for a few days, so I thought to summarize my thoughts on what has been stated so far.

    It not clear that a focus has emerged. The majority of the posts deal with problem symptoms.

    No problem has ever been successfully solved by addressing its symptoms.

    Successful problem solving requires the eradication of a given problem’s root causes.

    Problem symptoms will always be the root causes of other problems (e.g.: separations and divorces cause poverty, fatherlessness, criminality and a plethora of other social problems).

    It will do little good to alleviate the consequences of problem symptoms. Efforts spent on doing that are largely wasted and futile. Besides, those efforts would be a never-ending process, as the problem remains and continues to produce its symptoms.

    The most effective problem solution is the one that eliminates the root causes of the problem whose symptoms plague us. That will put an end to that problem and its symptoms. Thereby the whole system of problems for which the eliminated problem symptoms were the root causes will cease to exist.

    For that latter approach to problem solving to work it is necessary for a critical mass of people to agree on what the nature of the problem is that needs to be addressed and also to agree that the solution sought is necessary, affordable and feasible. The required critical mass will not be reached until the proponents of the best problem solution become a social force that has more influence than its opponents do.

    –WHS

  • dr_rythm

    Richard, The original idea to achieve unity amongst fathers rights activists is worth pursuing no matter what the initial hurdles may be. There are some in here who have lost sight of the absolute neccessity of that goal and are debating policies before the birth of such an organisation has even formed. The noise in here gives an idea of the difficulties ahead and I sincerely hope you are not imbued with doubt about the probablity of success. Every fathers rights organanisation has a slightly different objective but there are many areas of commonality to tap into. My own humble suggestion is for a global executive to be formed by inviting a representive from each of the fathers rights organisations in the US, Canada, United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand etc with the objective of finding and discussing areas that can be agreed on. This Global executive would then have the authority to debate,form policy and coordinate the efforts of the movement on a global scale – For the sake of our children.

  • dr_rythm

    Richard, The original idea to achieve unity amongst fathers rights activists is worth pursuing no matter what the initial hurdles may be. There are some in here who have lost sight of the absolute neccessity of that goal and are debating policies before the birth of such an organisation has even formed. The noise in here gives an idea of the difficulties ahead and I sincerely hope you are not imbued with doubt about the probablity of success. Every fathers rights organanisation has a slightly different objective but there are many areas of commonality to tap into. My own humble suggestion is for a global executive to be formed by inviting a representive from each of the fathers rights organisations in the US, Canada, United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand etc with the objective of finding and discussing areas that can be agreed on. This Global executive would then have the authority to debate,form policy and coordinate the efforts of the movement on a global scale – For the sake of our children.

  • dr_rythm

    Richard, The original idea to achieve unity amongst fathers rights activists is worth pursuing no matter what the initial hurdles may be. There are some in here who have lost sight of the absolute neccessity of that goal and are debating policies before the birth of such an organisation has even formed. The noise in here gives an idea of the difficulties ahead and I sincerely hope you are not imbued with doubt about the probablity of success. Every fathers rights organanisation has a slightly different objective but there are many areas of commonality to tap into. My own humble suggestion is for a global executive to be formed by inviting a representive from each of the fathers rights organisations in the US, Canada, United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand etc with the objective of finding and discussing areas that can be agreed on. This Global executive would then have the authority to debate,form policy and coordinate the efforts of the movement on a global scale – For the sake of our children.

  • Richard Doyle

    You, sir, seem to have grasped the concept of “cooperation for success” better than most, if not all other commentators.
    Realizing that some organizations are more trouble than they are worth, please privately e-mail me (rfdoyle@mensdefense.org) with a list of the important organizations you would invite to participate.

  • Richard Doyle

    You, sir, seem to have grasped the concept of “cooperation for success” better than most, if not all other commentators.
    Realizing that some organizations are more trouble than they are worth, please privately e-mail me (rfdoyle@mensdefense.org) with a list of the important organizations you would invite to participate.

  • Richard Doyle

    You, sir, seem to have grasped the concept of “cooperation for success” better than most, if not all other commentators.
    Realizing that some organizations are more trouble than they are worth, please privately e-mail me (rfdoyle@mensdefense.org) with a list of the important organizations you would invite to participate.

  • http://citizensrule.net right2parent

    In case you have forgotten, our system is unique in that is it based on the protection of individual rights. It is the breakdown of the rule of law that is the heart of the problem men are dealing with in the “father’s rights” movement. Until men recognize the problems we face are due to a lack of focus on abuse of power issues, and not because of public policy issues, we will continue to organize more and better organizations instead of colaborating on specific legal action challenging unlawful process that is the vehicle for feminist oppression.

    Your private correspondence indicates motives other than a quest for open dialogue. Maybe if you try to appease the feminists by offering joint custody, you can avoid having to defend your natural right to guardianship and standing up against unlawful government interference in child support matters.

    Carry on by private email if you like, but don’t pretend you’re looking for reasoned debate.

  • http://citizensrule.net right2parent

    In case you have forgotten, our system is unique in that is it based on the protection of individual rights. It is the breakdown of the rule of law that is the heart of the problem men are dealing with in the “father’s rights” movement. Until men recognize the problems we face are due to a lack of focus on abuse of power issues, and not because of public policy issues, we will continue to organize more and better organizations instead of colaborating on specific legal action challenging unlawful process that is the vehicle for feminist oppression.

    Your private correspondence indicates motives other than a quest for open dialogue. Maybe if you try to appease the feminists by offering joint custody, you can avoid having to defend your natural right to guardianship and standing up against unlawful government interference in child support matters.

    Carry on by private email if you like, but don’t pretend you’re looking for reasoned debate.

  • http://citizensrule.net right2parent

    In case you have forgotten, our system is unique in that is it based on the protection of individual rights. It is the breakdown of the rule of law that is the heart of the problem men are dealing with in the “father’s rights” movement. Until men recognize the problems we face are due to a lack of focus on abuse of power issues, and not because of public policy issues, we will continue to organize more and better organizations instead of colaborating on specific legal action challenging unlawful process that is the vehicle for feminist oppression.

    Your private correspondence indicates motives other than a quest for open dialogue. Maybe if you try to appease the feminists by offering joint custody, you can avoid having to defend your natural right to guardianship and standing up against unlawful government interference in child support matters.

    Carry on by private email if you like, but don’t pretend you’re looking for reasoned debate.

  • http://www.dontmakehermad.com/ John Dias

    I recently posted an article on MND about how the various disjointed Mens Rights/Fathers Rights organizations in the movement need not necessarily be united as an organization. Instead, they merely need to be able to mobilize supporters more effectively.

    This can be done with technology. Bringing the blogosphere to the realm of cell phones, any organization can issue a call-to-action to an unseen army of activists via text messages combined with a modified form of voicemail. Such supporters can overlap from organization to organization; the important thing is that they are all mobilized immediately when a need arises.

    Here’s the article:

    “Men poised to organize ‘rapid reaction force’ for political gains”
    http://mensnewsdaily.com/2006/10/16/men-poised-to-organize-rapid-reaction-force-for-political-gains/

    In this way, all you (as an activist) need to do is subscribe to the voice blogs of any group (or collection of groups) that has goals you support. Then just wait for a call-to-action, such as an appeal for letters to the editor or a call to a talk radio station, or letters to legislators, or financial donations to a ballot measure or political candidate.

    A good mentality to have if you’re leading a movement is to imagine that you already have minions of supporters; what would you ask them to do when a need arose, and how would you guide them? Too many organizations spend their time and resources amassing supporters, but use these vital resources ineffectively. Now, technology can reduce the need to waste money and time on amassing supporters and instead focus on the call-to-action itself.

    Imagine you’re such an activist. You’ve subscribed to a number of Fathers Rights voice blogs via Pheeder.com. You’re out on the town one day, eating lunch and reading a newspaper. Suddenly, you receive a text message from the Pheeder service; one of the organizations you’ve subscribed to has just issued a voice alert! You call the phone number indicated in the text message. Soon you hear in a recorded voice message from a prominent FRA group that a legislator has just introduced a bill in your state promoting shared custody, and needs supporters to show up at a rally the next morning where local media will be present. You now have a mission, and know exactly what you must do.

    The scenario could be changed to be a call to write a letter to the editor, or call in to a live talk show (where the window of opportunity to persuade the public, or refute a feminist, could be a matter of only 30 minutes).

    The potential is that technology can spread the costs of organizing to Web-based means (which are free), while the actual work need only focus on the job of refining a message and choosing an action for supporters to take. Technology is making political movements potentially more effective. Why not let it benefit ours?

    Check out the URL above and read more about this technology. I believe it can really help. We need to stop fussing about uniting as an organization (or a collection of united organizations), as this is rather monumental. Instead, we should give each organization a means to share supporters with the others — on an opt-in basis — using the advantages that new technology provides.

    John Dias
    Founder, DontMakeHerMad.com

  • http://www.dontmakehermad.com/ John Dias

    I recently posted an article on MND about how the various disjointed Mens Rights/Fathers Rights organizations in the movement need not necessarily be united as an organization. Instead, they merely need to be able to mobilize supporters more effectively.

    This can be done with technology. Bringing the blogosphere to the realm of cell phones, any organization can issue a call-to-action to an unseen army of activists via text messages combined with a modified form of voicemail. Such supporters can overlap from organization to organization; the important thing is that they are all mobilized immediately when a need arises.

    Here’s the article:

    “Men poised to organize ‘rapid reaction force’ for political gains”
    http://mensnewsdaily.com/2006/10/16/men-poised-to-organize-rapid-reaction-force-for-political-gains/

    In this way, all you (as an activist) need to do is subscribe to the voice blogs of any group (or collection of groups) that has goals you support. Then just wait for a call-to-action, such as an appeal for letters to the editor or a call to a talk radio station, or letters to legislators, or financial donations to a ballot measure or political candidate.

    A good mentality to have if you’re leading a movement is to imagine that you already have minions of supporters; what would you ask them to do when a need arose, and how would you guide them? Too many organizations spend their time and resources amassing supporters, but use these vital resources ineffectively. Now, technology can reduce the need to waste money and time on amassing supporters and instead focus on the call-to-action itself.

    Imagine you’re such an activist. You’ve subscribed to a number of Fathers Rights voice blogs via Pheeder.com. You’re out on the town one day, eating lunch and reading a newspaper. Suddenly, you receive a text message from the Pheeder service; one of the organizations you’ve subscribed to has just issued a voice alert! You call the phone number indicated in the text message. Soon you hear in a recorded voice message from a prominent FRA group that a legislator has just introduced a bill in your state promoting shared custody, and needs supporters to show up at a rally the next morning where local media will be present. You now have a mission, and know exactly what you must do.

    The scenario could be changed to be a call to write a letter to the editor, or call in to a live talk show (where the window of opportunity to persuade the public, or refute a feminist, could be a matter of only 30 minutes).

    The potential is that technology can spread the costs of organizing to Web-based means (which are free), while the actual work need only focus on the job of refining a message and choosing an action for supporters to take. Technology is making political movements potentially more effective. Why not let it benefit ours?

    Check out the URL above and read more about this technology. I believe it can really help. We need to stop fussing about uniting as an organization (or a collection of united organizations), as this is rather monumental. Instead, we should give each organization a means to share supporters with the others — on an opt-in basis — using the advantages that new technology provides.

    John Dias
    Founder, DontMakeHerMad.com

  • http://www.dontmakehermad.com/ John Dias

    I recently posted an article on MND about how the various disjointed Mens Rights/Fathers Rights organizations in the movement need not necessarily be united as an organization. Instead, they merely need to be able to mobilize supporters more effectively.

    This can be done with technology. Bringing the blogosphere to the realm of cell phones, any organization can issue a call-to-action to an unseen army of activists via text messages combined with a modified form of voicemail. Such supporters can overlap from organization to organization; the important thing is that they are all mobilized immediately when a need arises.

    Here’s the article:

    “Men poised to organize ‘rapid reaction force’ for political gains”
    http://mensnewsdaily.com/2006/10/16/men-poised-to-organize-rapid-reaction-force-for-political-gains/

    In this way, all you (as an activist) need to do is subscribe to the voice blogs of any group (or collection of groups) that has goals you support. Then just wait for a call-to-action, such as an appeal for letters to the editor or a call to a talk radio station, or letters to legislators, or financial donations to a ballot measure or political candidate.

    A good mentality to have if you’re leading a movement is to imagine that you already have minions of supporters; what would you ask them to do when a need arose, and how would you guide them? Too many organizations spend their time and resources amassing supporters, but use these vital resources ineffectively. Now, technology can reduce the need to waste money and time on amassing supporters and instead focus on the call-to-action itself.

    Imagine you’re such an activist. You’ve subscribed to a number of Fathers Rights voice blogs via Pheeder.com. You’re out on the town one day, eating lunch and reading a newspaper. Suddenly, you receive a text message from the Pheeder service; one of the organizations you’ve subscribed to has just issued a voice alert! You call the phone number indicated in the text message. Soon you hear in a recorded voice message from a prominent FRA group that a legislator has just introduced a bill in your state promoting shared custody, and needs supporters to show up at a rally the next morning where local media will be present. You now have a mission, and know exactly what you must do.

    The scenario could be changed to be a call to write a letter to the editor, or call in to a live talk show (where the window of opportunity to persuade the public, or refute a feminist, could be a matter of only 30 minutes).

    The potential is that technology can spread the costs of organizing to Web-based means (which are free), while the actual work need only focus on the job of refining a message and choosing an action for supporters to take. Technology is making political movements potentially more effective. Why not let it benefit ours?

    Check out the URL above and read more about this technology. I believe it can really help. We need to stop fussing about uniting as an organization (or a collection of united organizations), as this is rather monumental. Instead, we should give each organization a means to share supporters with the others — on an opt-in basis — using the advantages that new technology provides.

    John Dias
    Founder, DontMakeHerMad.com

  • dr_rythm

    John, As worthy as your ideas are, you are describing the means of communication for members of an organisation that has barely been conceived. The analogy is that of trying to fasten an aerial on a house that has not been built.

    People need to meet face to face to discuss the structure of such an organisation and how policy will be decided. There are huge obstacles to overcome for example, how to persuade the leaders of the various organisations to succumb to a higher authority. As Richard astutely pointed out, the motivating principle of some seems to be “Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.” Ideas for overcoming this first obstacle would be a good first step.

  • dr_rythm

    John, As worthy as your ideas are, you are describing the means of communication for members of an organisation that has barely been conceived. The analogy is that of trying to fasten an aerial on a house that has not been built.

    People need to meet face to face to discuss the structure of such an organisation and how policy will be decided. There are huge obstacles to overcome for example, how to persuade the leaders of the various organisations to succumb to a higher authority. As Richard astutely pointed out, the motivating principle of some seems to be “Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.” Ideas for overcoming this first obstacle would be a good first step.

  • dr_rythm

    John, As worthy as your ideas are, you are describing the means of communication for members of an organisation that has barely been conceived. The analogy is that of trying to fasten an aerial on a house that has not been built.

    People need to meet face to face to discuss the structure of such an organisation and how policy will be decided. There are huge obstacles to overcome for example, how to persuade the leaders of the various organisations to succumb to a higher authority. As Richard astutely pointed out, the motivating principle of some seems to be “Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.” Ideas for overcoming this first obstacle would be a good first step.

  • http://www.dontmakehermad.com/ John Dias

    Dr_Rythm wrote:
    “John, As worthy as your ideas are, you are describing the means of communication for members of an organisation that has barely been conceived.”

    Not at all. I am not saying that an organization be formed first, which everyone would then join after a face-to-face meeting, followed by coordination and logistics (which would include my suggestions). That is NOT the formula I propose. In fact, what I’m proposing is more likely to happen than a new organization being formed with pre-existing ones “succumbing to a higher authority.” The winds are with me, not with the idea you and others have discussed (forming a new organization). Since the winds are with me, and it’s unlikely that any new organization would ever succeed in making pre-existing ones “submit,” we should adapt to the likely reality. If you still want to start another organization, let it rest on the existing work that others have done, rather than taking them over.

    What I am proposing is a bit anarchical, with no overarching organization controlling anything. Did any one organization need to control the Internet? No! And yet there is an explosion of free speech, idea-sharing, resource-sharing, and of course information sharing — all activity that takes place between totally disjointed people.

    I believe it would be absolutely great if an over-arching organization came along to unite the fractured men’s movement. I really do. I would support such an effort. When it materializes, I will participate and advance it. But remember, this “umbrella organization” is NOT a prerequisite!

    We can BENEFIT from the anonymity of the Internet, hell we can even benefit from the lack of an umbrella organization! Simply having people electronically subscribe to receive text message notifications from a plethora of like-minded groups is just as good as an organization forming with recruited members. Except no members need pay any dues, no members need pay a fee in order to participate. And if you expect this (yet another prerequisite) as a condition of unity in this movement, you are handicapping that same movement.

    Come to think of it, I don’t even need anyone’s permission here to start organizing. I have already contacted the U.S. headquarters of Fathers 4 Justice and they are enthusiastic. I’m 1-for-1. And when I’ve established an electronic network of (admittedly disjointed) activists, we’ll be ready when your umbrella organization comes along. We’ll take our marching orders from local and regional leaders in the meantime, and perhaps even a few of the smaller (but established) national organizations.

    There is no need for one goal to preempt the other. Organizing an army now can only be beneficial. Think it can’t be done? The success of MySpace, the blogosphere, e-mail (the “killer app”) and the Web itself testify in my favor. And if I’m unsuccessful? I lose very little; only the phone calls and e-mails I sent out to the existing leaders in the movement. This is a no-brainer. Organizing a loose army of activists now does not threaten an umbrella organization later. We should be embracing this.

    John Dias
    Founder, DontMakeHerMad.com

  • http://www.dontmakehermad.com/ John Dias

    Dr_Rythm wrote:
    “John, As worthy as your ideas are, you are describing the means of communication for members of an organisation that has barely been conceived.”

    Not at all. I am not saying that an organization be formed first, which everyone would then join after a face-to-face meeting, followed by coordination and logistics (which would include my suggestions). That is NOT the formula I propose. In fact, what I’m proposing is more likely to happen than a new organization being formed with pre-existing ones “succumbing to a higher authority.” The winds are with me, not with the idea you and others have discussed (forming a new organization). Since the winds are with me, and it’s unlikely that any new organization would ever succeed in making pre-existing ones “submit,” we should adapt to the likely reality. If you still want to start another organization, let it rest on the existing work that others have done, rather than taking them over.

    What I am proposing is a bit anarchical, with no overarching organization controlling anything. Did any one organization need to control the Internet? No! And yet there is an explosion of free speech, idea-sharing, resource-sharing, and of course information sharing — all activity that takes place between totally disjointed people.

    I believe it would be absolutely great if an over-arching organization came along to unite the fractured men’s movement. I really do. I would support such an effort. When it materializes, I will participate and advance it. But remember, this “umbrella organization” is NOT a prerequisite!

    We can BENEFIT from the anonymity of the Internet, hell we can even benefit from the lack of an umbrella organization! Simply having people electronically subscribe to receive text message notifications from a plethora of like-minded groups is just as good as an organization forming with recruited members. Except no members need pay any dues, no members need pay a fee in order to participate. And if you expect this (yet another prerequisite) as a condition of unity in this movement, you are handicapping that same movement.

    Come to think of it, I don’t even need anyone’s permission here to start organizing. I have already contacted the U.S. headquarters of Fathers 4 Justice and they are enthusiastic. I’m 1-for-1. And when I’ve established an electronic network of (admittedly disjointed) activists, we’ll be ready when your umbrella organization comes along. We’ll take our marching orders from local and regional leaders in the meantime, and perhaps even a few of the smaller (but established) national organizations.

    There is no need for one goal to preempt the other. Organizing an army now can only be beneficial. Think it can’t be done? The success of MySpace, the blogosphere, e-mail (the “killer app”) and the Web itself testify in my favor. And if I’m unsuccessful? I lose very little; only the phone calls and e-mails I sent out to the existing leaders in the movement. This is a no-brainer. Organizing a loose army of activists now does not threaten an umbrella organization later. We should be embracing this.

    John Dias
    Founder, DontMakeHerMad.com

  • http://www.dontmakehermad.com/ John Dias

    Dr_Rythm wrote:
    “John, As worthy as your ideas are, you are describing the means of communication for members of an organisation that has barely been conceived.”

    Not at all. I am not saying that an organization be formed first, which everyone would then join after a face-to-face meeting, followed by coordination and logistics (which would include my suggestions). That is NOT the formula I propose. In fact, what I’m proposing is more likely to happen than a new organization being formed with pre-existing ones “succumbing to a higher authority.” The winds are with me, not with the idea you and others have discussed (forming a new organization). Since the winds are with me, and it’s unlikely that any new organization would ever succeed in making pre-existing ones “submit,” we should adapt to the likely reality. If you still want to start another organization, let it rest on the existing work that others have done, rather than taking them over.

    What I am proposing is a bit anarchical, with no overarching organization controlling anything. Did any one organization need to control the Internet? No! And yet there is an explosion of free speech, idea-sharing, resource-sharing, and of course information sharing — all activity that takes place between totally disjointed people.

    I believe it would be absolutely great if an over-arching organization came along to unite the fractured men’s movement. I really do. I would support such an effort. When it materializes, I will participate and advance it. But remember, this “umbrella organization” is NOT a prerequisite!

    We can BENEFIT from the anonymity of the Internet, hell we can even benefit from the lack of an umbrella organization! Simply having people electronically subscribe to receive text message notifications from a plethora of like-minded groups is just as good as an organization forming with recruited members. Except no members need pay any dues, no members need pay a fee in order to participate. And if you expect this (yet another prerequisite) as a condition of unity in this movement, you are handicapping that same movement.

    Come to think of it, I don’t even need anyone’s permission here to start organizing. I have already contacted the U.S. headquarters of Fathers 4 Justice and they are enthusiastic. I’m 1-for-1. And when I’ve established an electronic network of (admittedly disjointed) activists, we’ll be ready when your umbrella organization comes along. We’ll take our marching orders from local and regional leaders in the meantime, and perhaps even a few of the smaller (but established) national organizations.

    There is no need for one goal to preempt the other. Organizing an army now can only be beneficial. Think it can’t be done? The success of MySpace, the blogosphere, e-mail (the “killer app”) and the Web itself testify in my favor. And if I’m unsuccessful? I lose very little; only the phone calls and e-mails I sent out to the existing leaders in the movement. This is a no-brainer. Organizing a loose army of activists now does not threaten an umbrella organization later. We should be embracing this.

    John Dias
    Founder, DontMakeHerMad.com

  • http://fathersforlife.org Walter Schneider

    John, you may have hit on the method by which we can succeed. I don’t have a cell phone but am willing to get one to try out what you propose. I imagine that most other people have one already.

    Your suggestion should work, and there is no reason why we should wait for a unified roof organization to be formed to make it work. It may even help to speed things along.

    How can we go about giving it a try?

  • http://fathersforlife.org Walter Schneider

    John, you may have hit on the method by which we can succeed. I don’t have a cell phone but am willing to get one to try out what you propose. I imagine that most other people have one already.

    Your suggestion should work, and there is no reason why we should wait for a unified roof organization to be formed to make it work. It may even help to speed things along.

    How can we go about giving it a try?

  • http://fathersforlife.org Walter Schneider

    John, you may have hit on the method by which we can succeed. I don’t have a cell phone but am willing to get one to try out what you propose. I imagine that most other people have one already.

    Your suggestion should work, and there is no reason why we should wait for a unified roof organization to be formed to make it work. It may even help to speed things along.

    How can we go about giving it a try?

  • Richard Doyle

    Dr_rythm: again, you have hit the nail on the head; 1st things 1st.

    John and Walter: you make good points, but seem to make incorrect assumptions, i.e., that cooperation within the movement requires formation of a new umbrella organization up front. N’est ce pas. I quote from my initial proposal “But practically, in view of situational reality, the most we can probably hope for at present is a greater degree of cooperation among major existing groups. Requisite to any form of cooperation or unity are a common philosophy and means of communication.

    Secondly, if we should ever mature to the point that an umbrella organization would be appropriate, it needn’t be NEW. Men’s Equality Now (MEN) International inc. already exists. Professor Amneus, I, and others formed it in the 1970s for just that purpose. I have preserved its hard-to-obtain IRS 501 (c)(3) umbrella status.

    So, it would appear that the major objections have been met. Our ONLY remaining problem, and I do not discount its difficulty, is to convince the major organizations to come aboard — to build the foundation BRFORE building the upper storeys. The problem with starting on upper storeys is that we can’t get a sufficient following to effectively pursue them (however meritorious they may be). That’s been our big obstacle for over 30 years.

    Respectfully submitted. RFD

  • Richard Doyle

    Dr_rythm: again, you have hit the nail on the head; 1st things 1st.

    John and Walter: you make good points, but seem to make incorrect assumptions, i.e., that cooperation within the movement requires formation of a new umbrella organization up front. N’est ce pas. I quote from my initial proposal “But practically, in view of situational reality, the most we can probably hope for at present is a greater degree of cooperation among major existing groups. Requisite to any form of cooperation or unity are a common philosophy and means of communication.

    Secondly, if we should ever mature to the point that an umbrella organization would be appropriate, it needn’t be NEW. Men’s Equality Now (MEN) International inc. already exists. Professor Amneus, I, and others formed it in the 1970s for just that purpose. I have preserved its hard-to-obtain IRS 501 (c)(3) umbrella status.

    So, it would appear that the major objections have been met. Our ONLY remaining problem, and I do not discount its difficulty, is to convince the major organizations to come aboard — to build the foundation BRFORE building the upper storeys. The problem with starting on upper storeys is that we can’t get a sufficient following to effectively pursue them (however meritorious they may be). That’s been our big obstacle for over 30 years.

    Respectfully submitted. RFD

  • Richard Doyle

    Dr_rythm: again, you have hit the nail on the head; 1st things 1st.

    John and Walter: you make good points, but seem to make incorrect assumptions, i.e., that cooperation within the movement requires formation of a new umbrella organization up front. N’est ce pas. I quote from my initial proposal “But practically, in view of situational reality, the most we can probably hope for at present is a greater degree of cooperation among major existing groups. Requisite to any form of cooperation or unity are a common philosophy and means of communication.

    Secondly, if we should ever mature to the point that an umbrella organization would be appropriate, it needn’t be NEW. Men’s Equality Now (MEN) International inc. already exists. Professor Amneus, I, and others formed it in the 1970s for just that purpose. I have preserved its hard-to-obtain IRS 501 (c)(3) umbrella status.

    So, it would appear that the major objections have been met. Our ONLY remaining problem, and I do not discount its difficulty, is to convince the major organizations to come aboard — to build the foundation BRFORE building the upper storeys. The problem with starting on upper storeys is that we can’t get a sufficient following to effectively pursue them (however meritorious they may be). That’s been our big obstacle for over 30 years.

    Respectfully submitted. RFD