Neo-Con Salafis (Saudi-Salafis)
In the 13th century, Hulagu Khan, the grandson of Genghis Khan, led the brutal Mongol invasion of Baghdad, turning the river Euphrates and Tigris red with blood of men, women and children. To instil fear and humiliation, the invaders made pyramids with the human skulls of the victims. For the same reasons, the neo-Mongols of today made similar pyramids with the bodies of naked Iraqis. Clearly technological advancements does not always equate to advancement of civilisation; at least Hulagu Khan was honest, and did not pretend to wear the mask of civilisation while his men carried out atrocities!
The advancing Mongols were halted after their defeat by Sultan Baybars in the battle of Ein Jalut in 1260. Subsequently, the Mongol invaders were absorbed by the Muslims. This is a distinct episode of human history, where the invading conquerors assimilated into the culture and religion of the conquered nations. Yet, the medieval propaganda that Islam was spread by the sword continues to be propagated, by the ‘enlightened’ and scientifically advanced minds of today.
Prior to Sultan Baybars, Salahuddin Al-Ayubi came to the defence of Muslims and non-Muslims of Palestine, and liberated it from the clutches of the barbaric crusaders. After Sultan Baybars, came the rule of the Othmania Caliphate (Ottomans). It produced the likes of Sultan Muhammad Al-Fatih, who liberated Istanbul (Constantinople) at the age of 21, partly fulfilling the prophecy of Prophet Muhammad (SAW). The Islamic State reached its apex under the rule of Suleiman Al-Qanuni (Suleiman the Magnificent), who was on the verge of opening up Venice to Islamic rule.
After his demise, the Islamic State kept declining, with its inherent problems of economic and cultural stagnation. The gap between the Islamic State and secular Europe increased significantly after the Industrial Revolution, because now the European powers could produce much larger quantities of military hardware over a shorter period of time. This led to loss of territory in a series of disastrous wars and increasingly the Ottoman State fell under the financial control of the European powers, who labelled it as “the sick man of Europe’. Furthermore, fuelled by nationalism and inspired by outside forces, internal rebellions from the various ethnic groups increased, after living together in harmony for centuries under the Islamic State.
The last independent Ottoman Sultan was Abdul Hamid, who was renowned for refusing to sell Palestine to the Zionists, despite being tempted by huge amounts of money and at the time the state was in huge debt. He also tried to eradicate the notorious network of freemasonry which was prevalent within the Islamic State. During the Ottoman rule, there were Sultans in other parts of the Islamic world that also defended the Muslim community, for example, Ahmad Shah Durrani (Ahmad Shah Abdali) of Afghanistan, Imam Shamil of the Caucasus, and Sheikh Uthman Dan Fodio who established the Sokoto Caliphate over Nigeria, Cameroon and other parts of West Africa.
Eventually, the Ottoman Islamic State was symbolically demolished in 1924. This was achieved by the collective effort of the colonial powers (Britain and France), the Turkish nationalist movement (Young Turks), and the treacherous Arab regimes that were aided by the Wahhabi (Salafi) movement. The Wahhabi movement ‘legitimised’ the revolt against the Islamic State, as they considered everyone as an apostate unless they followed the Wahhabi school of thought. Whilst the British schemed to create the Arab revolt, the French worked to create the revolt of the Young Turks, both groups worked for the destruction of the Caliphate.
As a just ‘reward’ for their treachery, the colonial nations handed Palestine to the Zionists. People forget that these Arabs aided by the Salafi movement, were complicit with the Zionists in creating the Israeli cancer. Also, the colonial powers betrayed the Arabs by carving up the rest of the region, according to the secret treaty of Sykes-Picot. They created petty kingdoms ruled over by puppet dictators to serve their policy of divide and conquer. Some of the countries are so small and artificial that it can be classified as an oil field with a flag. The colonial powers even manufactured royal dynasties out of wild Bedouins who were operating as bandits.
In the absence of the Caliphate who will come to the defence of the Muslims now? With the demise of the Caliphate, the incursions into the Islamic lands have increased, as has the killing of Muslims and the exploitation of their resources. Most of the puppet regimes in the Muslim world continue to function like the coolies of the British Raj, always ready to serve and take orders in order to preserve their self-interests. They would sell anything to maintain their oil fields, empty palaces, shopping complexes and Filipino ‘maids’. After the Iraqi invasion, one of the members of the Kuwaiti royal family stated on TV that he would embrace the devil to regain his oil-field (Kuwait) in the south of Iraq. There was no Fatwa (Islamic edict) to pronounce him as an apostate from the land that produces endless fatwas against anyone, except those who show support for the pro-US puppet regimes!
When Iraq was attacked by the US-led coalition in 1991, these Gollum (Smeagol) like Salafi ‘scholars’ nearly choked trying to utter the word Jihad. Instead they gurgled and legitimised fighting the Muslims of Iraq under the American flag; some even saw ‘Jihad’ behind American troops in 1991! If fighting behind the Americans is Jihad, surely the likes of Bush and Sharon (a close ally of the US) are the Ameers (leaders) of Jihad! In reality this is Jihad in reverse gear, as the Muslims are the intended victims.
It was those same American troops that continued to commit the atrocities in Iraq, through enforcing the self-styled no-fly zone, and the cruel economic sanctions with direct cooperation from the Salafi orientated regimes. Then came the second invasion in 2003, the US troops committed atrocities in places like Abu-Ghraib, Baghdad, Fallujah, and Ramadi. To humiliate the Arab/Islamic world, they deliberately taped and aired the sadistic torture of Iraqis. In Haditha they gang raped a young girl and killed her along with her family, one of many such brutal crimes.
These Salafi orientated regimes managed to spin idiotic arguments for the naïve and their brain-dead followers. One of these claims is that the presence of US troops was good for Islam, as allegedly so many of them embraced Islam. According to these idiots, the blood of the Iraqi Muslims for some mysterious number of US soldiers allegedly converting to Islam was a good exchange! I suppose the first instruction given to those ‘converts’ by the Gollum like Salafi ‘scholars’ was to bomb the Muslims in Iraq! Was it their words of encouragement that led to the US forces, perhaps including the so-called ‘converts’, to massacre the retreating Iraqis on the road to Basra, and bury the defenceless Iraqi soldiers under the sand?
These Salafis describe the resistance in Palestine and Iraq as terrorists and extremists. Concurrently, they will not issue any criticism of the Pro-US regimes who are actively aiding the slaughter in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine, because allegedly they have found a ‘Hadith’ which permits this treacherous stance. Even common sense tells us that this is a perverted interpretation of Islam, as they justify remaining silent and inactive when violence is inflicted upon the Muslims but become overtly critical against Muslims for retaliating against injustices. This stance contradicts human nature as well as Islamic evidences. What then is the difference between the Salafi position and the neo-con ilk, who are leading the war on terror (Islam)? Only the shameless and treacherous ones would adopt the same position as those who have raped and tortured their children, mothers and sisters in a manner that is not even found amongst animals. Yet, these charlatans have the audacity to call themselves followers of the real pious predecessors (Salafis) that came after the demise of Prophet Muhammad (SAW). Therefore, the label ‘neo-con salafis’ or Saudi-Salafis is most appropriate for them. This also distinguishes them from the Jihadi-Salafis, who are far more consistent.
According to the neo-con Salafi obsession of purifying the creed (Aqeeda), liberation (purification) of Palestine should be a top priority. This is because Palestine includes Masjid Al-Aqsa (Jerusalem, Al-Quds), which is explicitly mentioned in the Quran and in the Hadiths, as a purified sacred place for the Muslims. Of course that is difficult as the Salafi orientated Saudi regime is closely aligned with the US and by implication allied with Israel. No one can dispute that the US provides the lifeline for Israel. So how will these neo-con Salafis liberate Palestine when they are aligned with the US and the Israelis? Thus, to date, not a single item of literature has been produced by these neo-con Salafis, as to how they visualise liberating Palestine.
When the Muslims in Bosnia were being massacred and raped by the Christian-terrorists of Europe, the Saudi-Salafis blamed the victims (Bosnians) for their fate, because they were bad Muslims. Surely, such arguments are also applicable to the Palestinians and the Iraqis who are also suffering. If we recall, Prophet Muhammad (SAW) sent an army seeking retribution for the dishonoring of one woman, and there was no discussion if she was a good Muslim or a bad Muslim. What the Saudi-Salafis really meant was: the Bosnians were apostates, so they have no obligation to help them, and they have the same opinion of the others, but the existing public opinion makes it difficult to express their real views. Isn’t it convenient for those who blame the victim, because they can simple turn their backs on them! Some would call it treachery and cowardice. This is why those planes should have been rammed against the palaces of these oppressors, instead of the WTC. Remove the snake inside your house, before you attempt to fight the bigger beast outside.
The paradox is: the neo-con Salafis (Saudi-Salafis) incessantly attack the mainstream Muslims by calling them deviants, as their Aqeeda is not pure enough, yet they have no problem in aligning with belligerent non-Muslims with a false Aqeeda and not just a deviant one. Note, the US bases in Saudi Arabia, and the other smaller Gulf States are used to launch murderous campaigns against the Muslims in Iraq, Palestine and else where, this has hardly bothered the conscience of the neo-con Salafis. Did the Prophet (SAW) not cleanse this land (Saudi Arabia, Hijaz, Najd) and say this is exclusively for the people of Tawhid (monotheism)? How can we explain this paradox, when these neo-con Salafis scream Shirk (Polytheism), Bidda (Innovation) and Kufr (Disbelief) but they are most comfortable with the presence of those hostile foreign forces that displays Shirk, Bidda and Kufr and even go beyond it?
This paradoxical behaviour of the neo-con Salafi can be explained if we dig deeper. Although they classify the rest of the Muslims (non Salafis) as deviants, but in reality they are viewed as apostates. Because, the neo-con Salafis follow the Khawarij doctrine of elevating minor issues of sin to major issues of disbelief (Kufr), hence like the Khawarij they pronounce Takfir (declare someone as an apostate) frequently. However, to avoid being isolated they say a particular notion makes one deviant instead of an apostate, but this is simply clever language on their part. Therefore, the neo-con Salafis are also the Khawarij (neo-Khawarij) of today. Accordingly they see no real problems with the killings of the Palestinians or the Iraqis or the Bosnians, as they are unbelievers being killed for their sins by another group of unbelievers (the Israelis, Americans, and Serbs). Consequentially, Salafi orientated regimes like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the Gulf States find it easy to abuse the poor Muslim workers who have come from places like Pakistan, Bangladesh, India, Egypt, Sudan, Philippines, Sri Lanka and Yemen. These poor workers are often paid very low salaries, and some occasions paid a lower than what was agreed and there are many cases of withholding payments for long periods. This is disgusting behavior and naked oppression by any standards.
When such criticisms have been raised they become Salafi-Capitalist, arguing that the labor force should move elsewhere for greater salary. So, the Islamic brotherhood vanishes, the purity of the Aqeeda is put aside, and exploiting the poverty faced by the poor Muslims is deemed acceptable and even ‘Islamic’. They are depicting the Sunnah of the pre-Islamic pagan Arabs. Is there a chance of issuing a ‘fatwa’ on this type of issue? Then the neo-Con Salafis have the audacity to lecture these poor Muslim workers facing exploitation about how deviant they are in their Aqeeda. In contrast, the white Europeans and Americans are paid promptly and paid a far greater salary for doing the same work. This is the consequence of having deep inferiority complex and racist views. There is no chance of squeezing a ‘fatwa’ out of them on this issue either.
True to their rebellious Khawarij nature, they aided the destruction of the Caliphate, replaced it with oppressive monarchies. Surely this is one of the greatest form of innovation (Bidda)? Old habits die hard, so they remain active in opposing those who are trying to re-establish the Caliphate, using various pretexts. For example, they say they do not oppose the notion of the Caliphate (Islamic State) but the creed of those who are trying to re-establish it, and at times they have had the chutzpah to question their sincerity. Obviously this is an excuse, otherwise by now we would have seen plenty of literatures and books on the notion of the Caliphate from these neo-Khawarij. In any case, did the Prophet (SAW) test the creed of all the companions before the establishment of the first Islamic State of Medina? Perhaps these neo-Khawarij are shy to proclaim that they consider the current rulers as legitimate. They were dancing and celebrating with the American forces after the killing of Muslims (or non-Muslims?) in Iraq! Never mind the dead Iraqis, but I would have thought a fatwa on the issue on dancing and celebrating with the American unbelievers would have been pronounced by now, from the land of ‘fatwas’.
For these neo-Khawarij, the Shi’ites are worse than the American soldiers massacring the Iraqis and presumably worse than the Zionist that are murdering Palestinians and Lebanese everyday! Accordingly they criticised the Shi’ites in Lebanon for fighting the Israelis, a close friend of their American masters, and simultaneously remained silent towards the Shi’ites in Iraq who collaborated with the Americans. These neo-Khawarij have been living with the Shi’ites for centuries and they only became a problem after Khomeini came to power in 1979, challenging the legitimacy of the Saudi regime. It was at this juncture we witnessed the circulation of anti-Shi’ite literatures from that part of the world.
To divert attention away from the occupation and slaughter facing the Muslims, the neo-con Salafis insist that everyone should accept their interpretation of certain metaphysical issues that has no real consequences for our life on earth. Nothing else can be discussed until this is resolved. So shedding of the blood of the Muslims, addressing famine, and other forms of tragedy does not rank very high on their list of priorities, assuming it is on their list in the first place! Perhaps helping Muslims in need is considered a minor Prophetic tradition (Sunnah)! But then again, there are no Muslims unless one is a neo-Khawarij (Saudi-Salafi or neo-Con Salafi)!
These neo-Khawarij are well-known for attacking the mainstream Muslims for following the established Madhabs (the traditional Schools of thought). They say you should not follow the Scholars but only the Quran and Sunnah (Hadiths) of the Prophet (SAW). Which tacitly implies the previous Scholars did not do that. In any case this is a redundant argument as following the opinion of a scholar is a must, unless one is a scholar who is capable of deducing the rules from the Islamic texts. The vast majority of the Muslims are not scholars. Therefore, the neo-Khawarij claim of following the Quran and Sunnah in reality means: do not follow the established Madhabs but follow our interpretation of the Quran and Sunnah, i.e. our Madhab. So instead of referring to the books of the traditional scholars like the Hanafi, Shafee, Maliki, Hanbali, Ghazali, and others, you should pickup ‘only’ the books of Al-Albani or Bin-Baaz.
According to these neo-Khawarij, the solution to our problems means going back to the 14th century and continuing the philosophical/theological debate that was initiated as a result of encountering Greek Philosophy. In essence, when everyone becomes a neo-Khawarij, our problem will be magically solved! The US soldiers will then suddenly run in fear seeing the prevailing of the Khawarij (Salafi) compliant doctrines, Israel will cease to exist, and our lands from Morocco to Indonesia will be free and unified under a single Caliphate, finally the oil will be ours, and it will be sold at genuine market prices, the revenue will be used for the welfare of the entire Muslim Ummah (community)!
The neo-Khawarij hide behind their superficial piety which they like to display and brag about, and then confuse the unwary Muslim by citing books, scholars and technical terms. It is easy to promote the above mentioned arguments, as the vast majority of the Saudi-Salafi followers are brain-dead, incapable of thinking independently and rationally about their situation. This is why they fear the wooden cross or the tombstones over the graves, more than the American firepower.
Moreover, they have been programmed to attack the mainstream Muslims and to raise irrelevant minor issues, so that focus is kept away from their paymasters and from vital issues like the mass killings of the Muslims. The Saudi-Salafis talk, you must listen. You challenge them by the constructing your own thoughts then automatically you are reduced to a deviant innovator lacking in scholarly knowledge. There is no doubt the neo-Khawarij are the fifth columnist, they will be at the forefront of fighting the Caliphate when it returns. If we are to learn from history this time we should be prepared to shed their blood and make them extinct, if it is necessary!
Yamin Zakaria (www.iiop.org) London, UK Copyright © Yamin Zakaria 2006
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December 2nd, 2006 at 9:36 am
I hope this article will give you a new perspective. I know there are certain techincal terms that I have used without giving a full explnation but you can easily find the explanation to those on the net, if you do a google search.
Yamin
December 2nd, 2006 at 1:24 pm
Yamin, I cannot do justice in this brief post to your heroic efforts to introduce some credible sense of Middle Eastern ancient/modern history to the infidels you petition with your excellent writing.
Your tragic mistake is in believing that an understanding of cultural history can affect American policies.
“the neo-Mongols of today…”
Fewer than 1% of Americans would even understand your reference to Mongols. And, even the Mongols themselves (were they alive to speak) would take issue with that label.
They were tribes that fought amongst themselves before they temporarily made alliances to conquer their adversaries in an admitted imperialistic war
Then, victorious, they started fighting each other again, and again… just like Iraq today… Kurds, Sunnis, Shias … all the legacies of tribal non-civilization that Americans have been suckered into believing can be cured by a little injection of “democracy.”
(Yes, Americans have no sense of Mongol history and character. Our bad. And we’re paying a billion dollars a day for our ignorance of history…)
“Yet, the medieval propaganda that Islam was spread by the sword continues to be propagated…”
Gosh. Even a cursory look at the history of Spain would give the lie to your thesis.
“Eventually, the Ottoman Islamic State was symbolically demolished in 1924. This was achieved by the collective effort of the colonial powers (Britain and France), the Turkish nationalist movement (Young Turks), and the treacherous Arab regimes that were aided by the Wahhabi (Salafi) movement. The Wahhabi movement ‘legitimised’ the revolt against the Islamic State, as they considered everyone as an apostate unless they followed the Wahhabi school of thought. Whilst the British schemed to create the Arab revolt, the French worked to create the revolt of the Young Turks, both groups worked for the destruction of the Caliphate.”
You are at your best when you just stick to actual history and omit the editorializing.
Your grasp of Middle Eastern history is 400% greater than that of any reader here, and 800% greater than any American elected Congressperson.
With respect, your major miscalculation is in believing that Americans care about history.
We don’t even teach our own 200 year-old history in our schools anymore.
Our kids cannot find their own resident state on a map.
Everything you are using to convince Americans that your voice and logic should be considered is a futile optimism that Americans can still learn.
We do not care about your perspectives.
We are NUMBER ONE! The only remaining Superpower on the planet!
Type (intelligently) as much as you wish.
Just don’t fall prey to any illusions about cross-cultural understanding.
Americans do not even understand their own culture.
You sir, are betting on the wrong horse.
December 2nd, 2006 at 1:29 pm
If I understand your article, the only way the arabs could survive the rest of the “cruel world” outside is to rebuild a medieval-like Caliphate so you can all lock yourself in?
Hey, be my guest! You want isolationism? Take it!
Just be aware of one thing: If some Muslims want to mess with us, we will be ready to mess with them. So before you and your fellow lock themselves in that “Reserve”, be sure to clean your own house. This includes removing those called Hamas, Hezbollah and Al-Quada. If you don’t do it, we will be glad of doing it for you.
December 2nd, 2006 at 2:27 pm
To DadWithGirls,
I am rather preplexed and very surprised by the conent and the volume of your response.
As usual when you are not insulting or being offensive you can make everyone laugh or smile.
The following statement certainly made me smile as the statment made me think of Michael Moore.
“Your grasp of Middle Eastern history is 400% greater than that of any reader here, and 800% greater than any American elected Congressperson.”
Yamin
December 2nd, 2006 at 2:30 pm
To Toubrouk – you said “If some Muslims want to mess with us, we will be ready to mess with them. ”
–
You should said like Bush, yeah we are gone smoke’em out. As you know “most of our imports come from abroad”
Yamin
December 2nd, 2006 at 2:33 pm
To everyone – What was the Caliphate -
Here is a quote from the CEO of Hewlett Packard (HP) on the subject of the Caliphate. For those who dont know, HP is an American company and one of the largest manufacturer of Printers, Periphrals, PCs and Servers, in the world. In my personal opinion, only IBM and Sun has excelled HP in terms of the Hardware and Software. Note the comment was made two weeks after 9/11
—————————-
“…I’ll end by telling a story. There was once a civilization that was the greatest
in the world.
It was able to create a continental super-state that stretched from ocean to
ocean, and from northern climes to tropics and deserts. Within its dominion
lived hundreds of millions of people, of different creeds and ethnic origins.
One of its languages became the universal language of much of the world, the
bridge between the peoples of a hundred lands. Its armies were made up of
people of many nationalities, and its military protection allowed a degree of
peace and prosperity that had never been known. The reach of this civilization’s
commerce extended from Latin America to China, and everywhere in between.
And this civilization was driven more than anything, by invention. Its
architects designed buildings that defied gravity. Its mathematicians created the
algebra and algorithms that would enable the building of computers, and the
creation of encryption. Its doctors examined the human body, and found new
cures for disease. Its astronomers looked into the heavens, named the stars, and
paved the way for space travel and exploration.
Its writers created thousands of stories. Stories of courage, romance and magic.
Its poets wrote of love, when others before them were too steeped in fear to think
of such things.
When other nations were afraid of ideas, this civilization thrived on them, and
kept them alive. When censors threatened to wipe out knowledge from past
civilizations, this civilization kept the knowledge alive, and passed it on to
others.
While modern Western civilization shares many of these traits, the civilization
I’m talking about was the Islamic world from the year 800 to 1600, which
included the Ottoman Empire and the courts of Baghdad, Damascus and Cairo,
and enlightened rulers like Suleiman the Magnificent.
Although we are often unaware of our indebtedness to this other civilization,
its gifts are very much a part of our heritage. The technology industry would not
exist without the contributions of Arab mathematicians. Sufi poet-philosophers
S c i e n c e a n d I s l a m u 7
like Rumi challenged our notions of self and truth. Leaders like Suleiman
contributed to our notions of tolerance and civic leadership.
And perhaps we can learn a lesson from his example: It was leadership based
on meritocracy, not inheritance. It was leadership that harnessed the full
capabilities of a very diverse population-that included Christianity, Islamic,
and Jewish traditions.
This kind of enlightened leadership – leadership that nurtured culture,
sustainability, diversity and courage – led to 800 years of invention and
prosperity…”
Carly Fiorina, the CEO of Hewlett-Packard, 26 September 2001.
December 2nd, 2006 at 4:11 pm
Now I competely understand why Ms. Fiorina was dismissed in disgrace from her post.
She mistakenly believed that computer geeks would make a connection betwen writing excellent code and the “enlightened leadership” she was advocating.
And, the stock holders had the final say.
She’s gone.
Yamin — (to DWG) “As usual when you are not insulting or being offensive you can make everyone laugh or smile.”
Well…
What else can provocateurs aspire to?
Personally, I like to smile while being offended. But I draw the line at laughing when I’m trying to be insulting.
December 2nd, 2006 at 4:20 pm
And BTW, that cartoon at the top of Yamin’s thread is especially interesting.
It appears to show an American soldier assaulting a female in a cocktail dress, while a dozen Muslim men (Saudis?) look on.
One of the Arabs is holding her legs down, one holds a microphone, another is taking notes on a legal pad, one is videotaping with a digital camera, one is holding his hands over his eyes.
What is the metaphor here?
December 2nd, 2006 at 4:28 pm
To DadWithGirls :
You say : “What is the metaphor here?” –
I am sure you can work that out.
Â
By the way, the CEO of HP is unlikely to be a geek but more likely to be of the MBA type. She may have technical knowledge but I doubt she is in touch with it, given her position as CEO.
Yamin
December 2nd, 2006 at 8:01 pm
Yamin (re. the cryptic cartoon — “I am sure you can work that out.”)
If the woman being assaulted was a blonde, or in a burka, everything would be clear.
Also, if the Arabic men were not characterized with the racist big noses and pointy heads.
What was your intention in placing this comic book illustration at the top of a complex essay on Middle East history?
December 2nd, 2006 at 8:09 pm
Man, this guy Yamin is making me do my research for free.
Ah — (from) mahjoob.com
“The name Abu Mahjoob, which translates to ‘father of the hidden,’ reveals so much by pretending to hide it.
It plays reverse psychology, subtle conclusion and a cynical sense of humor to make the reality of life around us even more somber and striking than ever.
…
Today, AMCP is a full-service advertising agency, which is committed to delivering the highest levels of creativity and ideas, both on the regional and international levels, with media knowledge on how to best execute these ideas.”
Now, who says Muslims don’t have a sense of humor? And a marketable corporate identity?
(Though I’m always a bit nervous when Islamic comics use the term “execute” in a business contract…)
December 2nd, 2006 at 10:24 pm
I love that little text about the caliphate. It start like a fairytale:
“…I’ll end by telling a story. There was once a civilization that was the greatest in the world.”
To this, I say “Take a number!”
how many times a civilisation was the greatest in the history of humanity? Let’s take a look…
The Chinese were once the greatest country in the world. Their science was advanced and they were the first to go around the world with ships! What did they do with their knowledge? Nothing. They din’t improve on their technology and let the rest of the world pass by them.
Vikings were raiders and explorers. They found the North-Americain Continent centuries before Christopher Colombus. What did they do? They ran away after the first attack from the natives.
Mayas were quite evolved in astronomy and architecture. Many tourists can walk throught the ruins of their cities and marvel at their finely-builded walls.
Once Rome was at the center of the world. They had an empire all over Europe. It lasted a while and now Rome is a museum of old things.
In the last century we saw the fall of the Brittish empire, the German Third Reich and the fall of the U.S.S.R. . They were all great nations by themselves and now they don’t exist.
So, what is so amazing about the Caliphate anyway? Okay, they had their thinkers and poets, but who dint? I like Rumi but I also like Robert Service. This prove me that the Caliphate you praise so much is nothing than another strata in the history of mankind, just the ashes of an empire buried under the ashes of others.
What is left of all this? When you say “Arabic Culture” to the common folk, what answer do you got? Mostly things like “Suicide Bomber” or “Psychos”. This is what is left of the glorious Caliphate…
The worst is, right now the Arab World is sitting over the most researched product of the world: oil. Instead of doing something with it, it seems to me that the Arabic world is more concentred on fraternal fights, corrupt theologies and blaming everything from bad weather to the entire western civilisation on the Jews. I find that Pathetic.
If I remember clearly, we of the west blew-up Germany twice. now their standart of life is one of the higher in the world. 66 years ago, we blew-up and NUKED Japan. Now, it’s the second most powerfull economy of the world. So, no, I don’t see why Arabs whine. If they want a Caliphate (Or a Disney Theme Park), they can get one. Right now, it seems they just want to blew-up themselves. I guess it’s a religious pass-time.
P.S. About the Bush thing. Please note that I am Canadian. When Terrorists mess with us, we mess with them. Why don’t you check yourself how we do it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_October
Once again, you mess with us, we mess with you.
December 3rd, 2006 at 3:23 am
To DadWithGirls –
The woman represents an Iraqi woman, she is not in her Hijab and Khimar (They dont wear the Burka) BECAUSE she is inside her house, being raped by a US soldier. The point is the Arabs are either watching or cooperating or blaming her or simply making noise as spectator.
Is that clear now?
Yamin
December 3rd, 2006 at 5:36 am
What cracks me up is the fact that the media and the facists like yourself ignore the fact that Palestinian Arabs enjoy more freedom under Jewish rule then they do in Arab lands such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia, or the Shiite Heads of Iran.
The lies that people like you and Jimmy the Dhimmi Carter spread that Israel is an Aparthied state is nothing more then propaganda to advance your agenda of the total destruction of the Jewish State of Israel.
PS.
Thanks to the flying IMAMS boycott of US AIR, US Air is now my airline of choice and because of the Islamic Boycott is considered the safest airline to fly.
Shabbot Shalom……………Ze’ev The Rogue Jew!
December 3rd, 2006 at 9:15 am
***The woman represents an Iraqi woman, she is not in her Hijab and Khimar (They dont wear the Burka) BECAUSE she is inside her house, being raped by a US soldier.***
Are you sure? The woman is fully dressed and got her legs closed. Dint look like a rape for me but, once again, I speak with no experience on the subject.
For me, it looks like a Marine trying to control a crazy (or epileptic) woman while Muslims around take note, blame him, sing songs against America while no one really helps except one.
So, the Marine is actualy the good guy.
Interesting.
December 3rd, 2006 at 10:45 am
Toubrouk, “This prove me that the Caliphate you praise so much is nothing than another strata in the history of mankind, just the ashes of an empire buried under the ashes of others.”
Your comments are salient. Times are certainly changing. The Caliphate represents, I think, an ideal Arab empire that dominates the globe from Africa to Indonesia. This empire would be enriched by the projected scarcity of energy reserves for the next 100 years.
I don’t know that such an empire would have much use for us or us for them. Unlike Europe, we are not threatened by migrations from Muslim countries. The threat we face is from our own willful dependence on Arab oil, and the growing world competition for available energy resources.
We don’t need Islamists to cut off our heads or our hands. The sad fact is that we’ve done that to ourselves. In pursuing the Iraq war, we have not only empowered our enemies, we have spent our national treasure to defend a way of life that undermines our long-term national interest.
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:32 pm
From Yamin — (To DadWithGirls) –
“The woman represents an Iraqi woman, she is not in her Hijab and Khimar (They dont wear the Burka) BECAUSE she is inside her house, being raped by a US soldier. The point is the Arabs are either watching or cooperating or blaming her or simply making noise as spectator.
Is that clear now?
Yamin”
—
What seems to be most clear in the cartoon is the absence of any Muslim man defending the woman, which would mean asserting his masculinity.
Does the cartoon imply that Arab men have castrated themselves? Or that they are servants of U.S. imperialism? Or that they enjoy porn?
—
Mike LaSalle wrote – “We don’t need Islamists to cut off our heads or our hands. The sad fact is that we’ve done that to ourselves. In pursuing the Iraq war, we have not only empowered our enemies, we have spent our national treasure to defend a way of life that undermines our long-term national interest.”
And let no one assert that when Yamin gets to continue to post his screed, his ideas, his occasionally excellent history and his zealous appeals to infidels here —
That Mr. LaSalle is unpatriotic, or complicit with the Muslim world’s lack of tolerance.
MND is still a (privately owned) free speech zone, unlike our universities, our major mass media, Congress, and our corporate board rooms.
Thanks, Mike!
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:57 pm
Mike – Just one point. The Caliphate was not an empire. It is rather the antithesis of an imperial system. When the state expanded the Muslims settled down and whatever wealth was generated was never sent back to some kind of motherland for an exclusive group of people, like it was done for example under the British colonial rule. This is why places like Mecca and Medina remained very poor, even though the state as whole was rich.
Second of all, the Caliphate exists to make the call of Islam highest and everything else is secondary. Where as in Capitalism the securing of interest for the nation or for the elite is the primary factor, then comes other things like democracy, freedom etc. Values take a second place to the interest of nation. For the Caliphate it is the opposite.
This is why Lord Palmerston said “No nation has perpetual friends or enemies, the only thing it has is its interests”. He was of course referring to the British Empire or the Capitalist nations.
Yamin
December 3rd, 2006 at 4:00 pm
Yamin, as you said, “This is why those planes should have been rammed against the palaces of these oppressors, instead of the WTC. Remove the snake inside your house, before you attempt to fight the bigger beast outside.”
I believe you are a kind man. But I respectfully disagree with your worldview.
Personally, I hope you find your Caliphate somewhere – if only to prove to you that any social construct devised by man is inherently flawed, if not ruthless.
BTW – you blithely dismiss human “interest”, but in my view capitalism is manifestly part of G-d’s Plan. Our banking system is successful because it reflects balances and forces in nature. You might say that capitalism is successful because it reflects ‘natural law.’
December 3rd, 2006 at 4:39 pm
Mike – my comments about the planes was metaphorical and not literal. Basically create unity within before you attempt to engage an outside force.
The principles of Caliphate are based on divine sources and not the construction of men. Otherwise we would have engaged in annihilation of our enemies, if they prevented access to their resources and wealth, like any capitalist state. Instead the Caliphate seeks their conversion. It is when man defines his own interest, evil prevails! This is why the shedding of blood, exploitation has reached apex with the rise of Capitalism.
Take the US as an example. If the US became an Islamic State overnight, we would open the borders with Mexico immediately and then Central America. We would seek converts, the spread of the message of ISlam and not their resources. Nor would we deny them access to our wealth.
As for Capitalism – of which Free Market Economy is the most prominent. It requires a more detailed discussion. In my view and others, the system does not serve everyone. Once a prominent economist was asked about free market, his response was it functions to be efficient by eliminating those who are weak; it does not function to be fair and moral by giving everyone their economic rights. Monetary system is clearly not stable. If there was a run on the Bank now the economy would collapse as it happened in the past.
Yamin
December 3rd, 2006 at 4:46 pm
Toubrouk – your interpretation of the Cartoon is spot on. This is how many of the Americans (and some Canadians) and many of the commentators here sees the world and the US foreign policy. When the US in distant lands drops bombs and kills so many people, it is actually serving humanity!
I think we agree now. So no one is going to mess with us now! Or we will do them over together, right?
Yamin
December 3rd, 2006 at 4:53 pm
“Take the US as an example. If the US became an Islamic State overnight, we would open the borders with Mexico immediately and then Central America. We would seek converts, the spread of the message of ISlam and not their resources. Nor would we deny them access to our wealth.”
….This made me think of the original “Invasion of the Body Snatchers.” The Theocracy you describe is a beehive. But perhaps that’s ultimately what nature has in store for us in the coming centuries…
December 3rd, 2006 at 6:06 pm
Hi Mike – I could not understand the refernce to the movie (I assume you are refering to the one that started with Donald Sutherland) in relation to the above point. The story of that film was: a group of aliens abducting the human body.
On a side point, a better representation of this film was “They Live” by John Carpenter. Perhaps you could also refer to other movie – “The Thing” also by John Carpenter.
Yamin
December 3rd, 2006 at 6:53 pm
Take the US as an example. If the US became an Islamic State overnight, we would open the borders with Mexico immediately and then Central America.
What Islamic country has open borders now? Or freedom of speech? Or the press?
For that matter, what Islamic country allows even a little freedom of religion? The five middle Eastern I’ve been to will jail anyone even saying good things about Jesus. And Jews definitely kept their mouths shut.
December 3rd, 2006 at 9:23 pm
Yamin, I might be a little rusty in the breeding department but to have sexual intercourse with a woman, she need to 1-) have her lower part of her dress removed, and 2-) had her legs spread because, as we know it, female genitals are between the legs. This little biological fact tell me that the woman in the cartoon is not raped.
Another point, America won the war in Iraq a long time ago. The only real problem is that few noticed yet. What was the goal of that war? Simmple; getting rid of Saddam Hussein. Do they succeed? Of course, they do. So they won.
You see, very few nations ever really won against the United States. Look at Vietnam or North Korea. They both “Won” against the states and got their spine broken in the process. The only country who ever won against the States was Canada in the war of 1812.
Seriously Yamin, what do you think it will happend if the Coalition troops leave Iraq now? Suddently the Iraquis will start building a communist Caliphate? No, there’s will be a civil war blewing up five seconds after the last US Marine will left Iraq’s soil.
You don’t believe it’s true? The entire arab world is riddled with the same religious junk we had half a millenia ago. Right now, Fatah and Hamas can’t find a way to deal with the control of the Palestinian autority, Hezbollah is trying to start a civil war in Lebanon and Iran is just trying to screw-up the area. Talk about a glorious Caliphate!
What do you think will happend when the civil war start in Iraq? The rest of the west will be free at last of all the terrorist groups! Why? They will be too buzy fighting for who will rape the woman on the table, that’s why! All the Iranian petrodollars will be used to finance various civil wars and Syria will be hard pressed to spend some money in too. This is the great part of all this; the arabs are about to fix the problem for us. Extremists groups will kill each other in Jihad for Iraq. Talk about saving some bombs in the U.S. side!
Oh well, we will wait and see.
December 4th, 2006 at 1:16 am
(Yamin) — “It is when man defines his own interest, evil prevails!”
This is the pivotal point in the logical conflict between Yamin and all rational men.
I could write volumes here, but just to cut to the chase —
Yamin — who’s your mother?
December 4th, 2006 at 1:50 am
Yamin Z. — You continue to delight and surprise.
You are also a fan of horror/sci-fi films?
Now, this might be just the kind of reaching out between cultures that could put an end to our mutually stupid ideological conflicts.
The entire ambivalent history of American imperialism is depicted in our cinema.
Giant insects were favoured in the 1950’s. (Post Hiroshima).
Body snatchers were cool during the Cold War years. (Commies around every corner.)
Now, when I visit my local video store, it seems to be about bloody mad insane terrorizing maniacs who kill for no reason.
The metaphoric connection to 911 is only too obvious.
Yamin — what are your favorite movies?
Have you seen “Metropolis?” (Silent, black-and-white German film from the 1920’s)
It’s a metaphor for how Americans see Islam.
December 4th, 2006 at 5:16 pm
Victory of Chavez has delighted many around the world, except the US and its allies.
I thought they would be please, seeing real democracy at work.
Yamin
December 4th, 2006 at 5:37 pm
Victory of Chavez has delighted many around the world, except the US and its allies.
I thought they would be please, seeing real democracy at work.
Leaving aside the fact that Human Rights Watch says the election was rigged, how can you say “democracy” when Chavez is a Socialist? Or is that a concept that is just too hard for your little head to understand?
Plus, how about answering Hal – “Which Muslim country has open borders?”
December 4th, 2006 at 5:46 pm
Squiggy once again talking of small heads – yes I do have a small head unlike you, as we say you are a “big head”. But for sure I have a bigger brain size. You see, you keep hanging yourself with your own rope! I made you a laughing stock once again.
Anyone who sees every commie as a the red-devil and not democratic has to be living in a cave. The problem you have is – Chavez got more votes than Bush and the election was not rigged unlike Florida 2000. As for HUman RIghts he has far better track record, he has not invaded a soverign country for oil and killed hundreds of thousands.
As for HAL – the reason I did not answer it is because he missed the entire point of the article, which is the existing countries are post-colonial setup and not the Caliphate which is a genuine ISlamic country! I told you before this board is for people who already have a degree of knowledge and commonsense, and I do not have time to explain the basics to Hal or you.
Yamin
December 4th, 2006 at 5:50 pm
To DadWithGIrls – Talking about movies, The recent film about Bush has been a flop, like everything else connected to Bush, a failure.
But instead watch this French Movie – Called District-13. It takes the martial arts to a new level, very stylish.
Yamin
December 4th, 2006 at 5:54 pm
To DadWithGirls you said “Now, when I visit my local video store, it seems to be about bloody mad insane terrorizing maniacs who kill for no reason.”
Correct, like Saw-III, Texas Chain Saw Massacre, etc. I would have thought the connection is with your abundant crazy serial killers or the kids that go in a shooting spree in schools – rather than 9/11. Take a reverse example, the film SAW with its Jigsaw killer. A copy cat crime was done in the US recently.
So is the movies that reflect society or society simply getting ideas from movies that producing so many more nut cases!
Yamin
December 4th, 2006 at 6:20 pm
To dadwithGirls – talkign about movies here was my take on Hollywood in the past.
“As an example, Hollywood over the years has constructed the violent image of the Native Americans whilst portraying the European occupiers as peaceful and civilised. The usual scenario portrayed in the various films is: the Native Americans launch ferocious attacks on horseback waving an axe, at every opportunity, without provocation: killing, raping and plundering. No explanation or any rational reasons are given as to why they attack the peaceful European convoys stealing more of their lands! As if such acts are part of their genetics!
Despite, the cowboys shooting many of the Native Americans dead from a distance they still approach the gun like the Dodo’s. The implication here is that they are not just violent savages but also an inferior race lacking in intelligence. Then to gloss over this image of good and evil, the regular diet of “The Little House on the Prairieâ€, “The Waltons†and “Bonanza†depicting the faultless virtues of the ‘peaceful’ European hordes. “
Yamin
December 4th, 2006 at 6:29 pm
DadWithGirls, I think that Yamin got a point there.
Yes, Hollywood make a fool of the pacifist nature of the Native Americans. The proof is simple to find; unlike others so claimed “Pacifist Religious” groups, Indians never blewed-up themselves in public busses or subways.
I guess we all have to learn from them…
December 4th, 2006 at 6:41 pm
Yes I agree Toubrouk – Dont blow-up busses using HUMAN BOMBERS – do it with F16s that makes it OK!
That the real different between the terrorists and the good guys!
I told you we agree and nobody is gone mess with us now.
Yamin
December 4th, 2006 at 7:19 pm
So you see, Yamin, we agree.
Here’s a little question: Have you see F-16s bombing markets, busses, mosques or subways lately?
One little fact few people know about the war of terror going on right now: for each Westerner killed in that war, 10 Arabs die from the same terrorists! This means that, by itself, the Middle-East don’t need our technology to kill their own people. Heck, they don’t even need us!
This remember me the Rwanda. this little African country saw a genocide of an extreme violence. At the end, 10% of the population died! And the people who did the butchery used Machettes as weapons! Amazing, don’t you think?
For me, this is not even close of what Iraq will look after the U.S. troops left. On one side, you will have the House of Saudi trying to defend their holdings with the best weapons money can buy. On the other side, you will have the fanatical Iranians out for blood. If we add the Kurds, always forgotten but still important in the picture, we will see some interesting fireworks soon.
Because the real truth about all this is in the cartoon at the top of the page. While the Marine try to help the woman ( I don’t see rape anywhere here) Most of the Arabs around don’t care. In our current world, if you don’t care, you lose. This is why Arabs keep on losing lately.
December 4th, 2006 at 7:56 pm
The problem you have is – Chavez got more votes than Bush and the election was not rigged unlike Florida 2000. As for HUman RIghts he has far better track record, he has not invaded a soverign country for oil and killed hundreds of thousands.
No, but he’s murdered hundreds (at least) of Venezuelans (for oil, and power). And as for the “fair election” he gave the opposition exactly two minutes of tv air time a day, while he gave himself up to six hours a day. And you have to be brain dead to believe Florida in 2000 was rigged. But alas, you keep showing off you’re intellectually challenged. For example, I said “Human Rights Watch” (an organization) Not “human rights” (a concept).
You see, you keep hanging yourself with your own rope! I made you a laughing stock once again.
Anyone who sees every commie as a the red-devil and not democratic has to be living in a cave.
You made me a laughing stock eh? Your head may be tiny, but your ego isn’t. Second off, if you weren’t so one-dimensional, you could understand that democracy and communism are inimical concepts, and cannot exist together. Like “cold heat”.
As for where you came up with “red-devil” I don’t know, but it wasn’t here. You need to get over your obsession with everyones past transgressions, how they must be responsible for deaths from long, long, ago, by people they never knew (except of course your wonderful loving muslims who only kill out of love).
And you did not answer Hal’s question. You just danced around it again. You’ve established that you’re an idiot, but are you a coward too?
December 5th, 2006 at 11:34 am
[...] MND columnist Yamin Zakaria openly blames the West for its own ills, and this logic is difficult to derail. [...]
December 5th, 2006 at 12:32 pm
Reverence and Vanity, Tourbouk and others –
You are correct the West are absolutely innocent. They had ABSOLUTELY no role to play. They did not colonise, they did no invade other nations or kill thousands of people in distant lands and install puppet regimes to serve their puropose. The Western troops do not represent Capitalist values but they are all benovalent forces, in fact almost pacifists.
As someone mentioned earlier the Iraqis are now killing Iraqis and not the US troops. The US troops came into Iraq to stop the civil war as shites and sunnis were killing each other under Saddam’s rule. When he was in power there were bombs going off everyday. So the pacifist US forces came into Iraq to stop the war and violence and the bombs. The Arabs have got it comepletely wrong.
Even though Iraq and IRan is oil-rich, the US is not interested in it. This is why the US was more active in trying to halt the genocide in Rawanda than the invasion of Kuwait (or reunification of Iraq) where only a handful of people got killed by IRaqi forces.
You see I am trying my best to agree with the likes of you, Toubrouk and SQuiggy. I believe I am getting there slowly in seeing the world event from your perspective. It is making sense to me now! Thankyou for your elightening contribution, I would be lost otherwise!
Yamin
December 5th, 2006 at 5:37 pm
When he was in power there were bombs going off everyday.
Not everyday. When Saddam used bombs, they were chemical weapons, and he used them to wipe out hundreds of thousands of his own countrymen. To erase whole cities and instill terror in everyone else. He didn’t need to use them every day.
Your attempt at irony is lame.
December 5th, 2006 at 6:07 pm
Yes Squiggy – Where did Saddam get the chemicals weapons from? I have a picture of Rumsfeld and Saddam shaing hand in 1982, but oh no, it could not have the Americans. They dont do such things! THey are a benovalent nation.
Oh I know, Saddam got them from Al-Qaeeda! Right?
He got them from Al-Qaeeda back in 1982 from Usamah bin Saddam or was it Saddam bin Laden?
Now which city did Sadam use them on? Can you name one? Yes you can, but they are all in Iran and not Iraq!
I am so touched by your love and concern for Saddam’s victims after 25 years! As they say better late than never. How touching! You are really benovalent and generous. Of course the US had no role in arming Saddam!
You see I am still trying to see the world from your perspective, I am trying so hard to agree with your vision.
You cant blame me for trying, can you?
Yamin
December 5th, 2006 at 6:42 pm
Yamin – you are right: Rumsfeld and Reagan administration armed Saddam in the early 80s. This was global geopolitics played out against the background of the Soviet Union’s fatal incursion into Afghanistan as well as the Hostage crisis in the wake of the Iranian Revolution.
Your sarcasm is dead on, I am ashamed to say.
December 5th, 2006 at 7:08 pm
Well Mike, I would rather not use any sarcasm. But how else can I deal with these arguments that Squiggy et al repeats ad nauseum every thread.
BY all means criticize Saddam (even though it came after 25 years but as I said, better late than never) but when people are denying the obvious history and circumstance – then sarcasm is the only way I can make my point. Simply because I feel I cannot engage them like mature adults at that point.
Yamin
December 5th, 2006 at 7:26 pm
Yamin, you might have a taste for sarcasm but I the truth is funnier than anything else.
There’s a little fact you need to get over it: If the country is old enough, he got invaded at least one. an example? Your precious Caliphate invaded a large part of Spain and Portugal during the years 711-718. The rule of the Muslim invaders laster for centuries where chirstians were kept into an inferior, dhimmi status. Nothing new under the sun.
You see, Yamin, my part of the world also got invaded. I am a French-Canadian living in Montreal. In 1763, the part of the land I live on (with his inhabitants) was sold to the Brittish Crown by the French in the hope they could keep their precious carribean islands. Today, we still have a different culture, language and religion. Unlike the Arabic world, we are using a diplomatic system to secure rights for the French-Canadian people. We don’t blew ourself up in Toronto public transit system to reach our goals.
So Iraq is on the edge of a civil war. Not because of the Americans or the Jews but because there’s groups in Iraq who just want to kill others persons. They will have to take their responsibilities. Regardless of who sell weapons, invest in terrorism or what happend before, Iraquis will have to take their responsibilities if they don’t want to see a bloodbath.
December 5th, 2006 at 10:27 pm
I guess there’s not much point in mentioning the incineration … errr … “liberation” of Fallujah a couple years back? (A city totally destroyed in order to “liberate” it?)
The U.S. military used napalm and newer phosphorous bombs to vaporize Iraqui civilians.
The forensic evidence is indisputable. It looked like a modern Pompei … volanized cadavers everywhere.
Eventually, there will be War Crimes trials against the U.S. for this travesty. Count on it.
America needs tough love to overcome it’s stupid belief that we can, as a people, as a nation, be both imperial and innocent.
I’m with Yamin 90% of the time, especially when I disagree with him, except when he fails to observe his own logic.
I admire his historical genius.
But I distrust what’s thinly veiled behind his logic….
Yamin, who’s your favorite Western philosopher?
December 5th, 2006 at 10:56 pm
Yamin wrote — (Reverence and Vanity, Tourbouk and others) –
“You are correct the West are absolutely innocent. They had ABSOLUTELY no role to play. They did not colonise, they did not invade other nations or kill thousands of people in distant lands and install puppet regimes to serve their puropose. The Western troops do not represent Capitalist values but they are all benovalent forces, in fact almost pacifists.”
Yamin, my ironic brother. (Very nice indirection in writing!)
We (might)absolutely agree on concepts of imperialism, cultural hegemony, racism, xenophobia, neocon evil, etc.
But here’s my question —
When do we get off the “I’m a victim” path?
History is a bitch and that’s indisputable.
Now, where do we go …. as a people on a very small planet in a very tiny galactic neighborhood?
Seems to me like we are in desperate need of BIG IDEAS istead of little squabbles.
Of course, I don’t live in Baghdad where regular water and electricity have become fantasies.
All of your writings are in some sense APPEALING to Westerners…
for what?
December 6th, 2006 at 5:45 am
I am so touched by your love and concern for Saddam’s victims after 25 years! As they say better late than never.
Okay, then why don’t you go and try to stop Sunnis and Shia from murdering each other? They are killing a hundred Iraqis for every American they kill. For the most part, we are not their target. They are infiltrating the police and the Iraqi military with the express purpose of murdering other Muslims.
I’m not sure what you could do, but wouldn’t it be great to be able to say I tried? As you said, better late than never.
December 6th, 2006 at 5:53 am
DadWithGirls – You said “I guess there’s not much point in mentioning the incineration … errr … “liberation†of Fallujah a couple years back? (A city totally destroyed in order to “liberate†it?) The U.S. military used napalm and newer phosphorous bombs to vaporize Iraqui civilians.
The forensic evidence is indisputable. It looked like a modern Pompei … volanized cadavers everywhere.”
I nearly fell of my chair when I read this. I cannot believe anyone here would admit to this and express it in such frank language. Because so far it has been Saddam the evil guy from Scooby Doo, while Shaggy George, Scooby Cheney, Wilma Condie and the rest of the cohorts are all nice guys trying to save the Iraqis – You mean to tell me these guys care about some rag-heads in distant lands when they cant tolerate the niggers/chinks/latinos etc on their door step?
DadwithGirls you say: “Eventually, there will be War Crimes trials against the U.S. for this travesty. Count on it.”
Despite showing intelligence after all this time, you failed miserably here. When was the last time you heard a UN resolution passed against the US? Is that possible? Nope, because of her Veto status thus she has set herself as judge jury and executioner. No room for democracy in the highest political institution! In the same way who is going to try the US? Martians from outer space? You know the constant sitings of UFO that seem to get largely from the US!
My freind, the world is governed by “might is right” and not by principles, I know you folks always hear and brag about international laws but laws are executed by the US for the US. Everyone else without the Veto and/or power must observe such ‘laws’ and be judged by it.
A true test of any law is when it can be used to bring the rich and the powerful to justice and not just the poor folks. An axiom of a genuine law, I would say.
DadwithGirls you then say “America needs tough love to overcome it’s stupid belief that we can, as a people, as a nation, be both imperial and innocent.”
WOW – Are you sure you were sober when you wrote this? I did fall of my chair now! Earlier you accused Mike of being unpatriotic but for sure Squiggy et al will accuse you of the same thing for writing such materials. And Toubrouk is gone mess with you now. You might get the FBI knocking your door now.
They might even accuse of being that red commie Michael Moor in disguise who did expose the Florida 200 election was rigged by Bush and his cohorts.
Well for SQuiggy this is a true story – When John Pilger interviewed John Bolton, yes the one who has the moustache like one of the Marx brothers. Pilger let the camera run after the interview. When the first comment made by Bolton to Pilger was “Son are you a commmunist” – In the UK everyone just laughed as it depicted the mindset of Deputy Sherif Hogg from “Live and Let Die” (Another great Bond movie) and “Man with the Golden Gun”. He proved what his mindset was, and likewise many here simply echo that.
Yamin
December 6th, 2006 at 6:00 am
Squiggy and others – Here is a quiz:
Squiggy says: “Okay, then why don’t you go and try to stop Sunnis and Shia from murdering each other?”
Well instead of me answering all the questions and explaining the basic facts. See who has the courage and the objectivity to answer Squiggy;s question? It is not that difficult. And let me give you a clue to start the process.
Historically in that region there has never been any shia-sunni conflict, they all inter married lived together for centuries.
I cant offer you any prizes from the UK. But I will give marks and declare who is the winner. Come on Squiggy have a go? This may stop you from asking other similar questions.
Yamin
December 6th, 2006 at 8:00 am
Hi DadWithGirls! Here’s something you said a while back:
*****
I guess there’s not much point in mentioning the incineration … errr … “liberation†of Fallujah a couple years back? (A city totally destroyed in order to “liberate†it?)
*****
To this I answer: nothing new under the sun. Western military doctrine in the past advocated for the heavy bombardment of civilian areas. Air Marshal Arthur Harris was the first to avocate a “total air war” during world war two. One example of that doctrine is the fate of the city of Caen, a French city only miles away from the coasts of Normandy. Knowing it was a road hub controled by SS forces, the allied bombarded the city for two days straight, killing more than 2000 french civilians in the process. At the end of the bombardment, they noticed that their intel was wrong and that the german forces were in the outskirts of the city, only taking minimal damage from the airs.
On the other side, Arabic terrorists leaders just love to use human shields. Since they don’t have the guts to stand up and fight, they surround themselves with women and children. Hamas leaders generaly travel with their family, Hezbollah fired their rockets to Israel from residential sectors of Lebanese cities and Saddam Hussein used to hide military depot under hospitals. So they don’t care neither.
As far as the Shia Vs. Sunnis thing goes, we can use the good old question “Why the chicken crossed the road?” to explain it. The answer is: Because they want to.
December 6th, 2006 at 4:00 pm
Tourbouk to my surprise you say: “Western military doctrine in the past advocated for the heavy bombardment of civilian areas.â€
So this is terrorism, state-terrorism, and the mother of all terrorism. It was the West who invented and practiced State-Terrorism and this continues today. Yet it is the Muslims who are classified as terrorist for retaliating.
Now after showing flashes of brilliance you then spoil it by stating the usual Fox-News propaganda: “On the other side, Arabic terrorists leaders just love to use human shields. Since they don’t have the guts to stand up and fight, they surround themselves with women and children.â€
So you expect the Iraqis to face the US army after it had stripped it of all the heavy weapons, bearing in mind that advantage your forces posses despite this. You think that is a fair fight? You expect them to face F16s, Heavy Tanks and Cruise Missiles with RPGs? Isn’t that a bit like asking a light weight boxer to fight ten Mike Tyson and if he does not do that you call him a coward? So, dropping bombs from high altitude demonstrates the bravery of the US soldiers, while the weaponless Iraqis fighting a guerilla war is cowardice! You see, I am still struggling to see the world from your perspective.
Finally, when you kill civilians indiscriminately as bombs are by their nature are indiscriminate; you put a spin on it by saying they were using human shields. Most of those casualties could have been avoided if your marines went into a place without air cover, without use of illegal weapons (like cowards) and fight the resistance who then has half a chance. Of course whenever you tried that you took heavy casualties.
Yamin
December 6th, 2006 at 4:06 pm
As there has not been any reponse to the Quiz. Let me give you another clue on the recent Shia-Sunni conflict in Iraq.
When the British controlled India, they did something similar with Muslims and Hindus. THey introduced the Zaminder class system. Whereby they took a predominantly Hindu populated land and appointed a Muslim ruler and vice versa. Now what do you was the result of this? Yes after living together for centuries side by side in peace, you had communal riots for the first time in history in the 1880s onwards. No doubt people were saying the same thing, as you are about shia-sunni conflict in Iraq.
Yamin
December 6th, 2006 at 7:55 pm
Yamin wrote —
“DadwithGirls you say: “Eventually, there will be War Crimes trials against the U.S. for this travesty. Count on it.â€
Despite showing intelligence after all this time, you failed miserably here. When was the last time you heard a UN resolution passed against the US? Is that possible? Nope, because of her Veto status thus she has set herself as judge jury and executioner. No room for democracy in the highest political institution!”
Yeah, you’re right. (My bad.) War Crimes trials are only for the losers.
And when the U.S. makes a “strategic redeployment” from Iraq, there will never be any admission from any elected politicians that we actually lost.
And I take no satisfaction in that.
Because, once again, Americans will be demonstrating to the world-at-large that we, as a people, are so arrogant that we cannot learn from our experiences.
And that is not a condemnation of our idealism.
Americans really wanted to see a democratic Iraq.
We like to believe that every culture on this planet wants to aspire to be just like us.
This is a consequence of Americans’ lack of cultural mobility and experience.
Fewer than 20% of Americans live more than 300 miles from where they were born.
The same percentage have passports or have ever travelled outside U.S. borders.
Yamin, you are dealing with an insulated tribe that represents itself as the world’s savior.
But the tribe’s leaders have no experience outside their own neighborhood. And their sheeple even less.
And, anyway, all this silly chit-chat about war and peace is distracting from the real agenda —
PROFITS.
Am I making myself clear?
December 6th, 2006 at 8:18 pm
Yamin,
BTW … please do not blame me for any of my beliefs, convictions, confusions, cynicisms, idealisms, omissions, excesses, or stupid posts.
I am a product of my culture.
Just like you!
December 6th, 2006 at 11:01 pm
Ah Yamin, sometimes, I am amazed by your verb. You know how to twist things!
You see, unlike many, the west learned that sometimes, massive bombing is useless. This is why there’s still some buildings standing in Bagdad!
Yes, we got technology on our side. We can destroy a building with pinpoint accuracy with guided ordinance. Note that I dint say “Smart”. There’s no such thing existing. Guidance depend of the skill of the operator and sometimes, it fails.
As far as the Human shield tactic goes, it is also doomed to fail. Ever heard of Patton? He was a great American general who once said: You don’t win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by killing the poor, dumb bastard who want to die for his country.”. In fact, being a human shield HELP the enemy to get rid of you.
By itself, there’s two ways to win a war against an enemy with a crushing military edge: First, it is to make them pay for every inch of ground. This has for effect something like trying to chew a Re-Bar. You might get throught but you will have broken teeths at the end. The palestinian authority is a pure example of this. Israel still exists even after decades of terrorism and war from neighborhooding countries.
The other possibility is to act like Ghandi. This might be alien to Islamic culture but passive resistance is a way to win a war. During the last lebanese conflict, many westerners openly supported Israel because they were under Hezbollah’s fire. Had Hezbollah just vanished, Israel would had looked like monsters. Oh well, think what you want to think.
December 7th, 2006 at 3:40 pm
DadWithGirls – “Yeah, you’re right. (My bad.) War Crimes trials are only for the losers.” LOL
You make me laugh
)
Yamin
December 7th, 2006 at 3:51 pm
Tourbouk – I know who Patton is, and the also the quote. It is sad but true. It shows how the poor in America are being exploited for the few (neo-cons and capitalists like Haliburton, Bechtel etc) to make lots of money. There are numerous reports confirming the would be Green-Card holders (esp Mexicans, Latinos) fighting in Iraq.
As for “smart” bombs their succes rate was less than 20% in the 1991 Gulf War if I recall.
As for Ghandi – this is misrepresented, the reason why the British gave up India had nothing to do with Ghanids non-violent resistance. IT had do with two main factors – 1) The UK was exhausted from the Second World War 2) The US was pushing the idea of decolonisation and scorned the old colonialism as part of her policy to replace herself where the British interests used to exists.
As for the recent LEBANON war, many Westerners (esp in Europe) also gave full support to Hizbo-Allah, as many came back and stated clearly that the Israelis were targetting civilians areas where there was no sign of any Hizbollah fighters or their presence. They were angry with what they saw was a nothing but a deliberate policy of terror which will not work. It only creates more resistance and will power.
Yamin
December 7th, 2006 at 7:02 pm
Yamin,
Perhaps you might consider starting a new thread in light of the just-released Iraq Study Group’s report?
Do you think there is any kind of graceful “disengagement” for the U.S.?
And after we leave, what future do you see, based on your historical acumen of the Middle East?
December 7th, 2006 at 11:06 pm
I just love your style of writting Yamin. You are telling me Patton is right because Americans are capitalists pigs? I don’t see the link, then it must be a strawman attack. Come-on! Think about all those poor Islamists who want to die as martyr and who volunteer to be human shield! Do you want to slander their pure purpose in life? Their mission?
Smart bombs is a great thing. 20% means one bomb hit the target for five bombs dropped. During World War II, entire wings of bombers were needed to hit a target. Sometimes, they couldn’t even hit it. So, a rate of 20% is great. Think about all those human shields, they DESERVE ammo who hit their target!
Right now, the Ghandi thing could work in Iraq. 1-) Public support in the U.S. is in a all-time low, 2-) Everything remotely socialist and mediatic support the cause. Your arab friends got a golden opportunity here…
As far as Lebanon goes, are you tell me that all those rockets fired by Hezbollah actualy were firred by evil mossad agents in south lebanon? Even if the leaders of Hezbollah claimed they were firing them?
**********
http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=ae679beb-d2be-40a4-8e74-8e581c1bf1ca&k=16670
Hezbollah’s deadly hold on heartland
Loved by many, accused by others of sacrificing civilians
Sonia Verma
National Post
Saturday, August 05, 2006
TYRE, Lebanon – When Dr. Fouad Fatah emerged bleary-eyed from the ruins of his hospital during a pause in Israeli air strikes last week, it felt like the first time in forever.
He counted himself as the last living soul in the five-room clinic, the only hospital serving this devastated swath of Lebanon’s south. His surviving patients had already been evacuated.
The surgeon led a group of journalists over what remained: mangled debris, shredded walls and a roof punched through by an Israeli shell.
“Look what they did to this place,” Dr. Fatah said, shaking his head. “Why in the world would the Israelis target a hospital?”
The probable answer was found a few hours later in a field nearby. Hidden in the tall grass were the burned remnants of a rocket-launcher.
Confronted with the evidence, Dr. Fatah admitted his hospital could have been used as a site from which to fire rockets into Israel.
**********
The truth is a wonderful thing, don’t you think, Yamin?
December 8th, 2006 at 3:54 pm
Thank you, Yamin. Your artice exposing the true nature of present day Khawarij is right on.
December 8th, 2006 at 7:08 pm
Toubrouk – After showing great improvement your latest response has declined again to the likes of Squiggy.
I never said Patton was right, because the Americans are greedy capitalist pigs. This is most preplexing. Patton was correct due to his accurate observation of the reality. I did not say the Americans, I said some Americans, and finally I never used the word pig.
Then you make a big deal of HizboAllah firing rockets, but no mention of what Israel has been doing prior and since that. So your account of the event startes with Hizbo-Allah firing rockets and I suppose Israelis were showering the Lebanese with flowers! Is this a fine piece of objective analysis you uphold as truth? Then to support your claims you cite one pro-ISraeli report, while ignoring the vast amount of reports from the more neutral sections which blames Israel for the violence.
If you are interested in truth then look who has been firing missiles in far greater quantity well before Hizbo-Allah fired its rockets. Like if you want to establish who has been the biggest victim, all you need to do is count. Can you do that?
If you are interested in truth, then look who has been holding larger numbers of prisoners which includes children, women and the old, priror to the war.
If you are interested in truth, then look at the reports of human rights groups, all of them condemned Israel for its criminal actions.
If you are interested in truth then look where the Israeli soldiers were captured – many have stated that it was within the Lebanese borders.
Yamin
December 8th, 2006 at 7:16 pm
To DadWithGirls – quickly as I am getting sleepy.
About graceful disengagement – that only would have been the case had the US achieved its objective of creating a stable government that is moving towards your vision of democracy. Otherwise it will look like a humiliating defeat. As the response of BUsh and Blair to the recent report, already indicates that they have been humiliated, especially after declaring victory early on. The report also suggests that US casualties has been far higher than what they have admitted to.
And once you leave… Of course there will be further bloodshed in terms of settling scores. There will be some degree of reprisal against collabrators, hence some of the Shi’ites and Pesh-Mugger criminals will be targeted. But I am not sure if it will led to a full scale civil war. Nor am I sure that in turn will lead to regional war involvoing other countries. Of course none of this would have happened if the invasion did not take place, as secterian war did not exist prior to the war.
Yamin
Yamin
December 9th, 2006 at 3:59 pm
So Yamin,
Ultimately, you are an optimist?
One theme in the current U.S. “race-from-disgrace” media campaign that is clearly the intent of all the new U.S. regime’s propaganda to “explain” the quagmire in Iraq is arguably just this —
Now we (via America’s mass media) are characterizing the Iraquis themselves as lazy, incompetent, disorganized, in fact — as morally deficient, for having not yet “stepped UP” so we (America and Tony Blair) can step DOWN.
This is a classic case of Freudian projection!
The defeated project their worst self-humiliating fears upon their victims.
I might be completely incorrect in this analysis.
Yamin — who is the Muslim version of Freud?
Is there such a thing as a Muslim professional “psychological” profession?
Or, does Islamic creed suffice as an antidote to modernity?
December 9th, 2006 at 6:01 pm
DadWithGirls – I hope you remain on my blog for sometime.
I am an optimist and a Muslim should always be an optimist. This is why we have almost zero level of depression rates and mental health problems. Our source of contentment comes from our stable family life and knowing our purpose in life. So ask the three pertinent questions:
1) Where have we come from
2) Why are we here
3) Where are we going, what is our destination.
If you woke up tomorrow in a strange place these are the first questions that you would ask yourself. As man gains conscience about his existance he must at some point ask the same questions about life on earth.
About pshchology you have to ask the experts in the field. Early scholars in this field were the likes of Ibn Sina (Avecena from Spain), Ibn Khaldun (From Tunisia) and Ghazali (From Baghdad).
Yamin
December 9th, 2006 at 6:07 pm
Strange but true………….
AS you know the recent Russian spy who died embraced ISlam on his death bed. When I heard the news of this man that he was sick and on the brink of his death. I was wondering in my mind, I wonder if he would embrace Islam before he die or suppose this man turns out to be a Muslim? Then the next news I hear is he did embrace Islam.
It felt strange as my thoughts collided with the reality.
Yamin
December 9th, 2006 at 8:07 pm
The ex-Russian-spy who was murdered so slowly by radiation poisoning, Yamin, was no doubt a very angry man. Radiation not only attacks the body’s cells but the brain’s as well. So his judgement ability had a double whammy. Dying, brain disintegrating, consumed by righteous anger, it isn’t a suprise that he turned to Islam. Seems a most suitable end point.
Re: the woman in the cartoon. The Arab men are taking notes so that her sharia trial will reach a ‘just’ sentence. She will be stoned to death for bringing dishonour on her father (the guy covering his face with his hands. The poor man is beside himself with shame). The Marine may well protest that she was hysterical and needed restraint, but the arab guys will quickly dismiss that and claim she was raped. There are more than enough witnesses to condemn her. They will probably give the marine a house in down-town somewhere.
December 9th, 2006 at 8:44 pm
Amfortass – As for your comment about the Russian Spy – the Quran states this “Haterd is uttered from their mouths but what they conceal in their hearts is worse”.
The poison did not affect his judgement, as he stated in clear lucid speech that he wanted to be burried as a Muslim. He was reading the Quran before he died, thus highly likely that he had converted prior to being affected by the poison.
So you see, your response proves that you do not have to be infected by radition to have a dysfunctional brain!
As for the isue of honour – How can I respond to someone who has no concept honour! Which is self-evident from your response!
. In any case, the woman is unlikely to survive as your Marines are known to burn or kill their victims after raping them.
Yamin
December 9th, 2006 at 10:11 pm
Yamin, lucidly speaking whilst reading the Koran is oxymoronic. But you may be right in part. Maybe he was dysfunctional before the radiation poisoning if he was already considering converting. But, then again, perhaps being buried as a Muslim was insurance against you lot blowing up his corpse.
I have no concept of honour? Just how did you reach that wild conclusion, not even knowing anything about me? Shirley you are a comedian. Or perhaps you are a bog-standard bigot, Sir.
Marines are known for? You take one alleged instance and condemn all Marines, do you. I guess I can apply the same ‘logic’ then about Muslims when they incinerate innocent bystanders. Muslims are therefore to be known for blowing up innocent children buying an ice-cream in a cafe. “By their fruits, you shall know them”.
And please leave my ass out of it.
December 10th, 2006 at 6:39 am
Angry Amfortass you say: “Yamin, lucidly speaking whilst reading the Koran is oxymoronic”
Read my response again in post 67….It seems in anger your brain is not funcitoning properly. All evidence points your brain is in the dysfunctional state.
LOL LMAO
)
Pity you came along and lowered the level of discussion again. Your contribution is like inserting drops of urine inside a glass of milk.
Yamin
December 10th, 2006 at 1:19 pm
Yamin — “DadWithGirls – I hope you remain on my blog for sometime.
That will depend upon your degree of ruthless honesty and your willingness to continue to interrogate your own beliefs…
and my own.
Deal?
December 10th, 2006 at 6:07 pm
To DadWithGirls – Of course – Mike can be the judge.
I am sure if I was in the US or you in the UK – we have had this out over a nice meal!
There would have been a fence around us for the likes of amfortas, squiggy et al to be spectators.
Yamin
December 10th, 2006 at 7:13 pm
Toubrouk – After showing great improvement your latest response has declined again to the likes of Squiggy.
You’re welcome Toubrouk. Anyone Yamin loses an argument to gets compared to me, an American who doesn’t live up to his murdering standards for “African-Americans” (an ignorant term that needs to go away).
You’re on the “fatwa list” now. Hope they still allow Canadians to own guns.
December 10th, 2006 at 7:28 pm
Yamin — (reply to DWG):
“I am sure if I was in the US or you in the UK – we have had this out over a nice meal!”
I would prefer that we could have that nice meal you anticipate on a sidewalk cafe in Baghdad…
That would be my criteria for a successful American intervention.
Everything else is just politics….
December 10th, 2006 at 7:45 pm
Oh, also…
that we do not get blown up during our cafe lunch.
Because if you read the Iraq Study Group’s report, they envision 70,000 U.S. military troops in Iraq PERMANENTLY… as “trainers and advisors…”
Our lunch date may have to be an indefinite rain check, Yamin.
Cold soup might be best?
December 10th, 2006 at 8:07 pm
Yasmin said, “Pity you came along and lowered the level of discussion again. Your contribution is like inserting drops of urine inside a glass of milk.”
Larf. I’ve never tried that Yasmin. What strange practices you have. Should I give it a go to understand your culture the better.
The level of discussion is variable Yasmin. You pose issues from a POV which in many societies would be considered menataly dysfunctonal. I have lived in many parts of the world and was always able to find commonality with the various cultures. Some I found very strange in custom and even in thinking style. The Chinese for example take a bit of effort to understand. Maybe it was my age and experience which had me hard at it. I managed though. But the commonality included a love of life in all cases – except the Muslims. You seem to exhibit this antipathy to life, prefering the rules of your religion to the presence of love and the spirit of life. If anything lowers the discussion it is this. Your hatred is like a black hole.
December 10th, 2006 at 8:43 pm
Yamin,
You dodged my question about a Muslim “psychology” with obscure references to marginal ancient Muslim scribes.
So, I am going to try again to pose what I feel is a seminal question —
Is there any PSYCHOLOGICAL common ground between Christians and Muslims?
I am neither, so perhaps I can pose as an objective observer?
(No, I am not Jewish either…)
Yamin, upon what ground do you envision a recognition of likenesses between cultures might occur?
Where is the ideological demilitarized zone to be found?
December 10th, 2006 at 8:57 pm
amfortas — you have observed that Muslims have an “antipathy to life…”
Please write more about your insightful argument.
I am fascinated to understand how a four- thousand year-old civilisation can be what you imply.
Since they invented modern mathematics, I hope you will be precise in your reply.
December 10th, 2006 at 10:46 pm
Sorry I can’t put it in an equation for you DWG. That a few bright men n000 years ago were inventors of maths that has remained accurate matters little. Individuals and cultures grow old regardless of earlier life achievments. Anyway, the Muslim religion/culture isn’t thousands of years old. It is more recent than Christianity and even Christianity doesn’t claim invention of wheels.
As an individual ages so does his acceptance of death. He/she may even come to embrace it, especially when life holds so little furure promise and the pains of decay, disease or disability set in. Civilisations age too, get past their Prime (’scuse the pun) and take on a fatalistic smell. Some do it with an anger and resentment just like some old folk do.
The Muslim culture isn’t thousands of years old. It was born a mishapen child and has contributed little but pain to all around since its conception. It is genetically inferior. Its a shame, but that’s life. Not all children are perfect and neither are all civilisations. Some need wheelchairs while they live and early life-insurance to pay for the coffin.
December 11th, 2006 at 6:10 am
Just a little note to see if Yamin will comment:
MOGADISHU, Somalia – Residents of a southern Somalia town who do not pray five times a day will be beheaded, an Islamic courts official said Wednesday, adding the edict will be implemented in three days.
Public places such as shops and tea houses in Bulo Burto, about 124 miles northeast of the capital, Mogadishu, should be closed during prayer time and no one should be on the streets, said Sheik Hussein Barre Rage, the chairman of the town’s Islamic court.
Those who do not follow this edict “will definitely be beheaded according to Islamic law,†Rage told The Associated Press by phone. “As Muslims, we should practice Islam fully, not in part, and that is what our religion enjoins us to do.â€
He said that the courts are announcing the edict over loudspeakers in the town.
Anything to say Mister Zakaria?
December 11th, 2006 at 3:47 pm
amfortas – Please refrain from provocations. Also, your tone is combative – even ugly. Please stop posting in anger.
December 11th, 2006 at 4:33 pm
To DadWithGirls – I did not dodge your question on psychology – I said clearly you need to ask the Muslims experts. This is not my field and I have no knowledge in this arena.
Yamin
December 11th, 2006 at 4:43 pm
Squiggy – I fail to see the point you are making. If the Somalis or the Eskimos decide to drown themselves under water what has that got to do with you or me? They may have laws and customs you dont like and vice versa.
I would concerned if the Somalis invaded the US, raped their women, killed women and children for fun by taking pot shots on the road (as shown by the videos), stole their wealth, raped young girls and burn their body, sodomise young boys in front of their parents, then initiate civil war by promoting one group against the other, or by using counter insurgency activity. Then call the entire thing ‘liberation’, ‘freedom’ etc.
That would be a genuine point of concern and discussion.
Yamin
December 11th, 2006 at 4:56 pm
To DadWithGirls – Your question to Amfortas is redundant. Because expecting amfortas to be objective with regards to ISlam and Muslims is like asking the KKK to do the same, with respect to the African-American communities.
Yamin
December 11th, 2006 at 5:43 pm
Yamin under attack from all sides -
http://www.salafimanhaj.com/pdf/SalafiManhaj_YaminZakaria.pdf
A 74 page response to my article – someone must have felt very storng about it.
Note the attack is very personal – rants all over the place and in places it looks racist. He calls my writing insignificant but yet he makes a 74 page response to it!!!
I have porven the retarded “neo-con Salafi” ‘logic’
Â
Yamin
December 11th, 2006 at 5:47 pm
More rants against the article:
http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?p=11692&posted=1#post11692
Yamin
December 11th, 2006 at 6:53 pm
Squiggy – I fail to see the point you are making.
No you don’t. You know exactly what the point is. When Muslims take over a country, the “fundamentalists” grab control and force everyone to do things their way (or death). The only Muslim countries that don’t force Sharia onto people are the ones run by secular dictators.
I would concerned if the Somalis invaded the US, raped their women, killed women and children for fun by taking pot shots on the road (as shown by the videos), stole their wealth, raped young girls and burn their body, sodomise young boys in front of their parents, then initiate civil war by promoting one group against the other, or by using counter insurgency activity. Then call the entire thing ‘liberation’, ‘freedom’ etc.
You find a couple of instances of something and extrapolate to the entire American Army. So I should assume you behead people (I have more examples than you do, and these videos were made by the murderers, not good people trying to get bad actions stopped).
And as for “calling the thing ‘liberation’, ‘freedom’ etc.” that’s exactly what it would be if people with other agendas (like you?) didn’t foment trouble. In fifteen of the eighteen Iraqi provinces the people are safe and happy, and love the American soldiers. In the other three, they are being murdered daily by “Islamic extremists” (something you always ignore, or blame the U.S. for, which is imbecilic). And yet way more than half of them still love America. Go figure.
You are one voice (of reason, sort of), and the “extremists” are many thousands of voices. Which voice(s) should we believe? Only someone who is suicidal should listen to you.
December 11th, 2006 at 7:06 pm
Squiggy you are still being irrational here.
You say: “No you don’t. You know exactly what the point is. When Muslims take over a country, the “fundamentalists†grab control and force everyone to do things their way (or death). The only Muslim countries that don’t force Sharia onto people are the ones run by secular dictators.”
If the Muslims decide to rule over themselves by the Sharia and impose those laws and values then it is their business and their right, even according to your so-called values of democracy!
Ever society enforces some kind of law and order and values and not everyone will concur.
Of course enforcing US made values inside and outside the US is ok, but if it is Islamic then it is unacceptable even if it is within the muslim countries. Why, because you say so? That is the essence of your ‘logic’!!!
When you make such types of response, it only strengthens my argument.
Yamin
December 11th, 2006 at 7:58 pm
Yamin said “If the Muslims decide to rule over themselves by the Sharia and impose those laws and values then it is their business and their right, even according to your so-called values of democracy!
The article stated “Residents of a southern Somalia town who do not pray five times a day will be beheaded, an Islamic courts official said Wednesday, adding the edict will be implemented in three days.”
What part of “pray five times a day or you will be publicly murdered” is “Muslims deciding to rule over themselves”? You are insane.
December 12th, 2006 at 2:48 am
Squiggy – your argument is dwindling into clear non-sense.
When any regime is in place it enacts laws and those who break it are punished. This is how the masses rule over themselves. The US is no different in this respect. Secondly when the laws are enacted and applied is there consensus by everyone ? Is there?
I did tell you before you need to think before put pen to paper and construe your argument.
Yamin
December 13th, 2006 at 5:28 am
I said: What part of “pray five times a day or you will be publicly murdered†is “Muslims deciding to rule over themselves�
Then Yamin said: Squiggy – your argument is dwindling into clear non-sense.
When any regime is in place it enacts laws and those who break it are punished.
Excellent. So we will just pass a law that says that anytime a Muslim tries to come into our country, we can kill him on the spot. Just make Islam illegal. There doesn’t have to be consensus, as YOU say?
Not to mention, you just justified any “war crime” ever committed, and slavery, and most every other heinous act committed by any government ever. Your inconsistency is consistent.
Plus, you can’t make any more arguments on these pages without having this drunken statement of yours quoted.
December 13th, 2006 at 5:38 am
P.S. Just for those who dabble in “clear non-sense” (?????) Yamin just said it’s okay for any government to kill anyone they choose, anytime they choose, as long as they pass a law saying it’s legal. The true Muslim thought process on display.
December 13th, 2006 at 7:35 am
***P.S. Just for those who dabble in “clear non-sense†(?????) Yamin just said it’s okay for any government to kill anyone they choose, anytime they choose, as long as they pass a law saying it’s legal. The true Muslim thought process on display.***
I will remember this thread when Yamin will be back whinning about the politics of Israel towards the palestinians.
Thanks for the treat Squiggy, you made my day!
December 13th, 2006 at 5:51 pm
SQuiggy – It seems getting this basic observation is becoming very challenging for you. I stated my OBSERVATION of the reality and did not state what is right or wrong! The reality is government implements laws and punishes those who break it. Is that really difficult to understand?
You you are right in democracy you can legislate such exterme laws as the system may permit it, HItler in fact rose through the democratic process and as you say: ” Excellent. So we will just pass a law that says that anytime a Muslim tries to come into our country, we can kill him on the spot. Just make Islam illegal. There doesn’t have to be consensus, as YOU say?”
However in Islam you cannot issue such laws! For example we could not issue a law that says kill all Dhimis or put them into a concentration camp! Thats the big difference, in a democracy you can legislate any kind of laws but not under ISlam!
You are proving my point here.
As for consensus – I did not say there doesn’t have to be any consensus, I said the reality is you never get 100% consensus.
Then in your confusion you jumped to war crimes etc which is related to foreign policy, between nations and has nothing to do with implementation of laws INTERNALLY.
Yamin
December 13th, 2006 at 5:58 pm
Squiggy you said: “Yamin just said it’s okay for any government to kill anyone they choose, anytime they choose, as long as they pass a law saying it’s legal. The true Muslim thought process on display.”
Nope I did not say it was ok to pass a specific type of law, I did not point that a specific type of law. All I said government implements their respective laws and punish those who break it. If a government passes such an arbitary law where it can allow them to kill anyone as they chose that sounds to me like a version of a secular system, man as legislator.
Such laws could not be passed under Islam as I pointed out in my earlier post.
Observation of the reality is on thing, i.e looking at this process, as opposed to what is right and wrong is another, where you pace valued judgement.
Obviously Squiggy this is challenging for you and Tourbouk – and I dont mean this with sarcasm.
Yamin
December 13th, 2006 at 6:02 pm
Toubrouk – You have surprised me with your last response, given your tack record of making intelligent posts. I suggest you look at my post no 93 – instead of making up things in your mind and attribute it to me or borrow them from Squiggy. At least you could have gone to my friend “DadwithGirls”!
Yamin
December 13th, 2006 at 8:35 pm
Yasmin says – “I am an optimist and a Muslim should always be an optimist. This is why we have almost zero level of depression rates and mental health problems.”
hahahahahaha. So how do you define suicide bombers? Mentally healthy? Depression is the leading precourser to suicide. But, you have to laugh, don’t you.
December 13th, 2006 at 10:32 pm
I am still reading but this particularly vile screed caught my eye–
“The Muslim culture isn’t thousands of years old. It was born a mishapen child and has contributed little but pain to all around since its conception. It is genetically inferior.”
That is a pure expression of racism.
And an even more tragic expression of ignorance.
How does one seek to redeem a brother with this sickness of the mind?
December 13th, 2006 at 10:42 pm
amfortas — “So how do you define suicide bombers?”
It is time to raise the bar on the logic employed hereabouts.
If we wish to explore the psychology of suicide bombers….
December 13th, 2006 at 11:10 pm
OK…
I’m going to write another dismissive comment.
I like history. And its ironies. And its truthfulness.
What is the difference between an American revolutionary soldier who shot British Redcoats in 1776 from behind a tree while the imperial Brit army marched in their bright redcoat imposing immaculate straight lines….
and an Iraqui Sunni or Shia suicide bomber today?
The occupiers seeking to conquer the American colonies were shot down. It was a necessary slaughter. Our great-great-great grandfathers celebrated many INSURGENT victories.
Can you imagine what you would do if an alien force invaded your town and declared that your relatives had to be killed in order to “plant democracy?”
Welcome to Iraq’s “liberation.”
December 14th, 2006 at 12:22 am
DWG. You can’t tell the difference between a suicide bomber and a troop shooting soldiers in a battle? Gee whiz. Should you be raising children?
Maybe I should move to America and start shooting people on the pretext that I am protecting the real inhabitant people from the white men who invaded the Indians. Get a grip of your knickers, man.
You want a definition of suicide bomber: how about a pesron who so hates life that he/she is prepared to kill innocents by blowing him/herself up in public places on the false promise of virgins in an afterlife. God alone knows what Allah thinks of that. I think it is mentally unhealthy. Just an opinion – although I am professionally qualified to make it.
As for the ‘racism’ comment, paint me as black as you like (’scuse the pun). Don’t put faux-guilt trips on me, they just run off my back. Anyway, I cannot be racist, by definition. I was born an Englishman! All others are wogs and I make no distinction between them. I do not need to imagine sci-fi fantasies thanks. Racism looks a lot different to that, Sunshine.
The redemption issue: I am not in the redemption business. Surgeons do not try to ‘redeem’ cancerous tissue, they cut it out.
December 14th, 2006 at 5:18 am
“The Muslim culture isn’t thousands of years old. It was born a mishapen child and has contributed little but pain to all around since its conception. It is genetically inferior.â€
That is a pure expression of racism.
DWG you’re a headcase. What race is a Muslim? You are a typical liberal, who sees race in everything. Funny, we used to call that a bigot.
Can you imagine what you would do if an alien force invaded your town and declared that your relatives had to be killed in order to “plant democracy?â€
Whose relatives did we order killed? The Syrians or the Iranians? Or just the usual al qaeda guys? And so what? Your cousin is a murderer, deal with the emotions, LIKE A MAN! Not like the emasculated wimp you sound like.
December 14th, 2006 at 5:39 am
Yamin, once again you deny what you said, when we can scroll up and look at it anytime (and some of us have the pages saved so we can get a chuckle whenever we want).
You always do that. Once before you accused me of being a redneck who wanted to lynch blacks. Then when I told you I AM black, you said I wasn’t one of the “good” blacks, like Malcolm X. Then later you said the Nation of Islam wasn’t made of real Muslims, even though that’s the group that Malcolm X was a part of. If you could keep track of the lies you told before, your arguments might tend to hold water.