Defending men who want subservient or submissive wives

2007-01-29
By

I believe that it is fair to say that men who openly seek subservient or submissive wives would be likely to be criticized by many people. They might even be reluctant to go public with their preferences. However, I think there is a case that such men may not be simply “pigs,” “beasts,” or “male chauvinists” but have valid reasons for wanting these types of wives.

Perhaps we need to first discuss what is meant by the terms “subservient” and “submissive.” Dictionary.com gives the first two definitions of “subservient” as follows: 1. Serving or acting in a subordinate capacity; subordinate. 2. Servile; excessively submissive; obsequies.” The second definition has clearly negative connotations with the use of the adjective “excessively.”

When I plugged in the “submissive” I pulled up a definition reading “inclined or ready to submit; unresistingly or humbly obedient.” The word “submit” itself drew up the following definitions relevant to this essay: 1. To give over or yield to the power or authority of another. 2. To yield oneself to the power or authority of another. 3. To defer to another’s judgment, opinion, decision, etc.

Thus, it would seem that a man who wants a subservient or submissive wife wants a wife who regards him as the couple or family decision-maker. I believe Marabel Morgan, author of The Total Woman, described the wife’s role as that of Vice-President to her husband’s President. Or as a woman I once knew who advocated wifely submission put it, “That means that she gets her say and he gets his say but his say goes.”

It is also likely that men who desire subservient or submissive wives expect such wives to serve them in a manner similar to the way a servant would generally serve an employer.

Speaking only for myself, I see the words “subservient” and “submissive” as having slightly different nuances. The first word tends to connote more doing things for someone else such as cooking that person a meal and perhaps bringing it to the dominant person. Submissive has somewhat paradoxical connotations. It is associated with conservative religious beliefs such as that of St. Paul’s “wives, submit to your husband’s as unto the Lord” and the Southern Baptist resolution that a wife is to “submit graciously to the servant leadership of her husband.” It also has kinky sex associations with activities like hand and foot kissing and submitting to a spanking or other discipline.

Are there valid, non-religious reasons for men to seek subservient or submissive wives? I believe there are. A man might feel that he should be the dominant partner because he may be called upon to risk life or limb in defense of his wife, whether against an attacker or against the elements. If he is the provider and has in effect “liberated” his wife from the need to compete in the labor market, he may feel it especially appropriate that he be the dominant partner. To support her, he may work hard at a job that is dangerous, dirty, or in some other way draining and onerous. He feels that he serves her when he is at his paid job and view her serving of him when he gets home as a sort of democratic quid pro quo. Finally, there are men who can only get sexually aroused by women who are subservient or submissive.

These reasons seem to me to be adequate to justify this preference by some men and for it to be respected by other people.

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  • http://lovability.org amfortas

    Well there is a strange and unexpected defense of the unprincipled. Sure there are a few odd fellows around who seek a wimpy, wishy-washy drone who will do as they are told. I’m sure there are many women who want to be told what to do as well. Lazy, idle, unthinking women. There are also many men with IQs below 99, some well below. Half the male population in fact. Thick as two short planks and sometimes nasty with it. Anyone subservient to them would be in dire straights indeed. Thick women seem to love them though, for reasons hard to fathom, and who am I to stand in their way.

    Many reasonable men supported women in their quest for equality. We are still waiting as women refuse point blank to take their equal share of responsibility and the greater share of social power. But to encourage such childish, selfish dependancy by women under some arcane biblical ‘command’ would be a path to ruin for all of us.

    Adult women are needed by adult men. I certainly do not want a ‘submissive’ woman, no matter how attractive or ‘justified’ it can be made to seem. It is sheer sophistry. What we need is equality. Adult women who share equitably. Divide the work of the home and family by all means, by agreement, not fiat, but honour the contributions of both. As it is at present even her word, her Vows do not seem equal and as sure as Hell is hot, their word is far from submissive.

    Come along Denise. Is this a joke? Or a plea for ‘diversity’? Now, fetch me my luncheon and get that dress off. You know what I’ve told you about appearing in print in any more than a French Maid’s outfit. You know what to expect, m’dear.

  • Palinurus

    A submissive wife would, IMHO, represent an intolerable burden, as well as having limited possibilities as a true companion. It’s difficult enough dealing with my own mistakes without asking someone else to suffer for them also. The type of moral certitude which demands submission, and which seems to come so easily to the simple-minded, is not in me.

  • DcFather

    “She” cannot truly be submissive to “him”, because should any dispute go to a court of law, the rule of law is now that “she” wins. “She” gets the kids, the house, the car, and a monthly stipend just for being a “she”, and there is virtually nothing “he” can do about it. Therefore, any submission “she” agrees to is only temporary and revocable without notice or agreement.

    There is a maxim in business that goes something like “You can delegate authority, but not responsibility”. Well, in the world of “intimate partners”, we have the reverse. Women can delegate responsibility to men, but cannot delegate authority. It’s as good of an explanation as any as to why your marriage or relationship is more likely to fail than your business. Everything has to be the way “she” wants, and if it fails it is “his” fault, therefore “he” must pay.

    Mostly, it works best for children when “he” is in charge. Patriarchy made civilization possible, but that is for another discussion. However, feminism, money for lawyers, and political correctness have put the well-being of children on the wayside. Devotion to home and family for both men and women is nearly gone in favor of “what women want”.

    As an example, consider abortion. It’s all up to her whether or not their baby gets to live. We now even have legislators trying to pass laws to criminalize any action a man might take to narrow the entitlements that go along with “her” choice, such as his moving out of a shared home if she “chooses” differently than what he wants.

    Another good example is domestic violence. She can regularly beat him over the head with a frying pan, but if he calls the police it is he who will be arrested, spend time in jail, and be prosecuted. Nobody cares if there are children left behind unprotected from a violent and abusive mother, we prefer instead to pretend that all mothers are saints and all fathers are villains, even in the face of statistics that show women are more likely to abuse than men and the safest place for a child is in the home of his or her biological father.

    Of course this discussion would not be complete without discussing money. He must work and provide for her and any children. If he does not, he is considered a bum, and can be imprisoned for it as a “deadbeat” upon her “choice” to divorce, petition for child support, alimony, palimony, or some combination thereof. Her working is just another “choice”. She isn’t a bum, she is a homemaker. We don’t have “deadbeat moms”, we have “deadbeat dads”, even when men pay child support at higher compliance rates than women ordered to pay child support.

    Ultimately, any discussion of dominance and submission has to limited to the sphere of “her” agreement, however tentative. That is because our courts have decided that the vaginas are in charge, and the penises had better comply with “her choice” or face the sanctions of the state.

  • grizzlieantagonist

    I read the answers of losers like Amfortas and Palinurus and once again get a better understanding of why men, as a group, are losing.

  • PolishKnight

    Hello Denise and amfortas:

    Adult women are needed by adult men. I certainly do not want a ’submissive’ woman, no matter how attractive or ‘justified’ it can be made to seem. It is sheer sophistry. What we need is equality. Adult women who share equitably. Divide the work of the home and family by all means, by agreement, not fiat, but honour the contributions of both. As it is at present even her word, her Vows do not seem equal and as sure as Hell is hot, their word is far from submissive.

    I think you mean “misogyny”, not “sophistry” (which is a deceptive argument.)

    That said, if most women themselves don’t want the burdens of equality and so-called equal “independent” relationships appear unstable, then wouldn’t so-called “submissive” roles for women be preferable if not necessarily ideal?

    Most relationships are not based upon equality including in the workplace and society. You can’t just ring up the president and ask to borrow air force one even though he theoretically works for us. It’s possible for people to respect a chain of command without being “wishy washy drones who do as they are told”. This discussion reveals the notions of feminist equality closely matching that of marxism which argues for equality even as it ultimately turned out to create the opposite: A strong class system of political czars and worker peasants with few rights.

    By generalizing men who want submissive wives as less than average intelligence, you’ve only confirmed Denise’s point that many people have strong stereotypes of such men and emotional baggage about such roles.

    Here’s a news flash: Most well-educated American men are submissive. They earn a decent salary and even do cooking and cleaning out of fear of being divorced or rejected by women. These men are _not_ stupid (at least in the conventional sense) but they are clearly emotionally insecure otherwise we wouldn’t be having this discussion. These men are submissive and not in a good way. In the submissive relationship Denise describes, the leader of the family, the man, has a certain set of obligations and duties that are carried along with this role. It’s clear that many men who want a “strong” women are not up to that task and women find such men to be “weak” and repulsive. (Which ironically may create a feedback loop of these women ultimately demanding more work/income from such men to make up for their wishywashyness.)

    Sure, in theory, it’s possible for Mr. Middle Class Professional to meet Ms. Middle Class Professional and for them to live happily ever after but most of the time it doesn’t work. And outside of that, the strain of trying to force this ideal upon everyone has resulted in a huge mess. When do you throw in the towel?

    I’ve met men with below-average IQ’s that had more respect from their women and at the same time geniuses who had multiple degrees who were divorced repeatedly and treated like trash by women. Whose smarter AND happier? Paul McCartney whose proclaimed that he’s thinking of giving up relationships with women altogether or some janitor whose wife treats him like her hero for bringing home an income so she can feed her kids?

  • conservativation

    Amfortas, I suggest polygamy for you and the entire set must equal an odd number, its the only way to advance a group agendy when everyone has an equal vote. It sounds so dandy to suggest that you do not seek a submissive woman, but then you go on to describe how in the amfortas utopia the labor is divided equitably etc. Well, if you think a man and woman are going to reach a 100% meeting of the minds 100% of the time, indeed it is utopian thinking. I think Denise is operating in the realm of, “the bucks gotta stop somewhere”, if not you have complete inertia. There must be a tiebreaker. Sadly as Polish rightly points out, most American men are extremely submissive, some as he says because of fear of the ultimate consequences of not being (divorce) and some because women have perfected the subtle art of outwardly appearing to be “the little lady” while she is the final arbiter of nearly everything.
    A group of men standing around talking about things, how many times does one or another say they must ask the wife, wife won’t like that, that would really piss off my wife, better hope your wife doesn’t find out, etc. Contrast w/ women saying gotta ask the husband, and even when they do say it, its with a wink and a nudge between gals that its a formality.

    Amfortas, the comments like “arcane Biblical command” are boorish. Regardless if Biblically based ( your perception of the Biblical gender roles is majorly flawed, if understood any sane person would jump at being the woman) it is these roles adopted that make “mail order bride” marriages break at a rate of 19% vs. the homogeneous American ones 50/51%. These women are nearly always not Christians, therefore inculturated somehow to be submissive rather then following that silly Biblical model. They find the rejection of the role by western enlightened gals amazingly stupid.

  • roadkill1965

    As a white man married to an Asian wife, I can see the issue from Denise’s point of view. I would describe my wife as being submissive, but definately not subordinate. She says that it is my duty as a man to make the decisions, pay the bills, and protect the family. If I didn’t, she would lose all respect for me. She certainly has input, but the final decision (and responsibility) is ultimately mine. This seems to work for us, since there’s no confusion about our roles and responsibilities. It wouldn’t work if one of us disagreed with our position. As to the guy above who thinks we must have below average intelligence, I will say that we both have advanced degrees and professional jobs, and I would guess, above-average intelligence. She even speaks three languages fluently. It all boils down to the fact that SOMEBODY has to make the decision.

  • fourthwire

    First of all, when a “liberated” woman marries a man of her choice, is any “defense” of HER choice necessary?

    And haven’t feminists fought for women’s right to CHOOSE for themselves, holding themselves above criticism…… even those choices that wreak havoc on men, children, and families?

    Yet someone seems to believe that a man’s choice to marry women who are raised to NOT display those aspects of many or most American women that I find detestable.

    It’s not particularly difficult to find self-centered, egotistical, lazy, opportunistic individuals with overweaning senses of entitlement to marry among American women.

    Those women from other nations, brought up to value family, men, children, running their households, etc. and WHO TAKE PRIDE IN DOING IT WELL are often characterized by feminazis as “subservient” or “submissive”.

    In fact that’s usually simply not true, as anyone who has visited nations such as Vietnam, the Philippines, Thailand, or any number of Central- and South American, Asian, or eastern European nations can testify.

    Women born and raised in those nations may not be perfect, but they are far less likely to display those characteristics for which they are so reviled on MND.

    American men are growing increasingly weary of loud-mouthed, self-centered, bitchy women who seek sperm donations and access to men’s bank accounts, and whose own double-standards for behavior among men and women have made marriage to them such a risky proposition.

    The increase in marriages between foreign-born women and American men reflect that weariness.

    Why aren’t American women being just as highly sought-after for marriage as American men are, among foreign nationals?

    Could it be that those qualities and characteristics that so define American womanhood aren’t particularly in high demand among men in other nations?

    The number of American men seeking foreign-born wives, particularly in those nations not yet tainted by radical feminist ideologies continues to rise.

    The number of American men who are turning their backs on marriage continues to rise.

    And American women can blame their own behavior for both trends.

    By the way, those “feminists” who choose to marry wimpy, mealy-mouthed apologists for feminism………… the sort of men whose testicles are carried around by their wives…………

    …….do they require your “defense” as well, Denise Noe?

  • fourthwire

    Typo… should read:

    “Yet someone seems to believe that a man’s choice to marry women who are raised to NOT display those aspects of many or most American women that I find detestable is called-for.”

  • http://russianwomen.wordpress.com/ galacticlove

    I live in Russia and I feel this article is slanting the entire issue all together.

    Let’s get to the bottom line here..

    Real Men are NOT afraid of Strong Women..
    (as so many modern women would have you believe)

    But MOST Importantly..

    Real Men DON’T sleep with a Competitor!

    Most Western Women have lost their sanity by thinking that to be strong means to act like a man. By doing so they lose their real power which is in the feminine character that they were born with.

    Pure Stupidity on their part.

  • tasmaw

    Palinurus said,

    A submissive wife would, IMHO, represent an intolerable burden, as well as having limited possibilities as a true companion. It’s difficult enough dealing with my own mistakes without asking someone else to suffer for them also. The type of moral certitude which demands submission, and which seems to come so easily to the simple-minded, is not in me.

    Well Pal old buddy, I’d say the same thing about a wife period. I’ve only seen one in 53 years who WASN’T a burden, and as difficult to deal with as most cornered rats. Suffering? Well! I used to be bigger, but 2 ex-wives took half of everything each time. Half the wealth, all the kids, all the real estate, half of my self and sanity. Hmmm, probably why I’m so simple-minded. But still, it’s one thing to support a wife and quite another to support two ex-wives, four kids, two divorce lawyers, THEIR wives, ex-wives, kids, mortgage, car payments, etc… See? Simple minded can’t even make a whole list, or a complete sentence any more. Easily distracted. Grumpy Poor Punctuation!

  • Torquemada

    Well, I have to say, while I agree with you “men’s movement” types on virtually every issue and am well aware that men are second-class citizens now, the respones to this piece are a good example if why I would NEVER, EVER be part of the movement.

    How naive can you be? Don’t you get it? You’ve accepted the main tenet of feminism and you don’t even know it. You’ve bought into this idea that there CAN AND SHOULD BE EQUALITY when not only shouldn’t there be, but it’s also an impossiblity.

    Fact: if the man is not explicitly acknowledged as the head of the household, the woman will be. This is because women excel at emotional manipulation and do it instinctively.

    I’ll also mention that anyone who thinks that a submissive woman is weak and stupid has bought into another feminist lie. Don’t you realize that this is exactly what the feminists would say?

    The kind of woman I’m talking about is far stronger than any feminist shrew, in that she has the strength of character to remain chaste and strive after virtue, difficult though that may be.

    If you guys had faith, you would know how to indentify a truly Christian woman who wanted nothing more than to submit to a good man’s headship.

    I hope that some of you will approach this with an open mind and re-examine your basic suppositions. Where did they come from? Who originated them? Only then will you take the right pill and leave the Feminist Matrix.

  • Torquemada

    Oh, I forgot to address this notion of a wives — submissive or otherwise — being a burden. ALL spouses are a burden, as are kids — and that’s how it was meant to be. Marriage is about service, serving your spouse (whether you’re the head or not) and your kids. If you don’t understand that, you’re doomed from the get-go.

    I’ll conclude by saying that unlike many of you guys here, I don’t have a failed marriage that bears witness to the lack of soundness of my understanding of relationships and marriage. Remember, as Einstein said, “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.”

  • red pill

    Deees ees so funneee
    Assertive man seeking submissive woman: Bad
    Assertive woman seeking submissive man: Good
    Am I wrong?
    Does it mean that what is most desired is an assertive man partnered with an assertive woman?
    I pity the foo’ that thinks THAT works in the good ol USA…

  • NationalVoice

    Sounds to me like it is all in the realm of personal choice. If you want a subservient wife, find one. There are those who will be subservient willingly. I suspect that the natural order of things is for the male to be dominant. But, not all men are comfortable with being dominant, so they should find wives who are. All men (and women) may be created equal, but few end up that way.

  • Torquemada

    Red Pill,

    You put that well. Two assertive people would just be a recipe for a two-headed monster.

    As far as the myth of “equal relationships” goes, I’ll quote C.S. Lewis, “You can’t have a democracy of two because the votes cancel each other out.”

    It’s just common sense, my friends.

  • Charles Fockaert

    “She” cannot truly be submissive to “him”, because should any dispute go to a court of law, the rule of law is now that “she” wins. “She” gets the kids, the house, the car, and a monthly stipend just for being a “she”, and there is virtually nothing “he” can do about it.”

    She gets to go to a court that, instead of upholding the marriage contract like a justice system should, assists the wife in unilaterally breaking the most important contract in a society and then rewards her for doing so. In doing so, the court then harms the dad, the children and even ultimately, the wife and society as a whole.

  • Torquemada

    Uh, folks, you’re missing a very important point. If she is truly submissive to him, they will never end up in court because she won’t be challenging his decisions and authority.

  • Charles Fockaert

    That said, in a society where these injustices exist, doesn’t that make the married man,when push comes to shove, a forced submissive and ultimately subservient to the woman?

    Isn’t such a system matriarchy?

  • Torquemada

    Charles,

    I agree that our system is a matriarchy. But my point is that there are some women — few and far between, of course — who, like some men, have comepletely rejected the “system” and operate outside it for the most part. These are the people who homeschool, say grace before meals, etc., etc., etc.

    They do exist and I am one of them.

  • DeezNuts

    amfortas wrote, “I certainly do not want a ’submissive’ woman, no matter how attractive or ‘justified’ it can be made to seem. It is sheer sophistry.”

    It seems that you do not want a woman at all based on the fruity style of writing.

    mangina alert

  • fourthwire

    “It seems that you do not want a woman at all based on the fruity style of writing.

    mangina alert”

    Deeznuts, are you confusing amfortas’ educational level with his testosterone level?

    Perhaps you believe that men are not allowed to write in an articulate fashion?

    Hold your “mangina alert” on behalf of Amfortas’ words……

    By doing so, you provoke an “idiot alert”…… at least to most college grads.;-)

  • http://lovability.org amfortas

    Hahahaha. Well, what a beating I seem to be getting. A sound thrashing. Mangina ! ME! Hahahahaha. Definitly a whole lot of American angst going down here. Maybe my message was lost amongst all the fruity phrases (actually its called English). I am Boorish, a loser, hahaha, whoa there, nice shootin’ Tex.

    Some good points in there though. Possibly explains why I have been divorced twice and lost everything like Tasmaw. hahahaha. Must get off my adult high horse and accept reality.

    No, bugger it, Utopia for me. Per Ardua as Astra. Denise, fetch me an adult women and be quick about it, and where are the stockings I told you to wear!

  • http://www.washingtoncritic.com Steven Guess

    Denise – I don’t see a religious defense to this submissive question. If that were the case, you could use a religious defense to beating your wife, if thats what your religion told you. In fact, in Reynolds v United States, the Supreme Court succinctly stated that if there were a religious defense to our laws “every man would become a law unto himself.” There must be some socially accepted, or unacceptable standards for behavior.

    Your non-religious arguments don’t make a whole lot of sense to me such as submissiveness is ok if the man works a dangerous job. I mean, I don’t see the logic. They are both “serving” each other? That’s a bit of a strech. I mean I guess by yelling at her husband she’s serving him with a piece of her mind, and by beating her he’s serving her a lesson. I think you can *say* they serve each other, but the argument seems rather weak.

    why not reverse the roles and have the man be subserviant, and the woman taking a dangerous job, would that make much sense?

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com admin

    fourthwire: I concur. Maybe we need an ‘idiot alert’ button. Something like a dunce hat but with clear guzzle tubes to indicate the beer flow. Maybe Deezy could try it on for us?

  • thurston861

    I guess you guys missed it here.

    Ms. Feminista Noe (obviously a pseudonym last name traced back to “No means No” anti-rape campaign) has had an epiphany.

    She has decided that it is OK for a Man to want to marry a woman who will see him as the final decision maker and the one who builds a world of boundaries and safety for her. That because he is expected to rise up and take the hit for the team when the intruder comes knocking (this is the scenario where the term “It’s a man’s world” comes from) that he is entitled to that submissiveness and respect.

    An ember of reasoning is begining to glow in her mind, let us sheild it from the rains of senselessness and nuture it!

    Honestly, she shames me. My relationship with my ex was messed up because I tried to love my wife as Christ loved the Church, and the ever rising bar of expectations made me her doormat. Could not compete against the undermining of the mother-in-law. When I finally found work that could provide for a family it took so much time and effort. She felt abandoned because I for the first time was not the “completely worthless bastard” that her mother complained about her marrying.

    I cannot marry again because Chinggis Khan did not write a book entitled the ‘Art of Marriage,’ for me to use the next time around.

    Seriously, Denise seems to be waking up to the fact that there is a natural desire within the psychy of woman to have the power and protection of a man over her. It lends to the security need that makes women pack up all of their belongings and leave when a letter from the IRS to her husband arrives in the mail.

    Even now, with my present lady frined. She has lived 4 decades without me. Raised 2 children and half way done with a third, alone. (She never took any alimony from her husband or child support the husband or the boyfriend. Never sued, nor took welfare to have the men driven out of her children’s lives) She controls and directs a couple of dozen employees. Operates a store, does the inventory once a week and all the books and payroll, schedules, …. you name it.

    Highly intelligent, motivated, and authoritative.

    When she is with me, does she try to tell me what to do?

    No, complete submission. Unlike most women, she is quiet, and likes to listen to me, then again she is talked out at the end of the day.

    There may be a number of reason a woman wants to be submissive to a man. Some to escape responsibility (so the man bcan be derided at a later time like the H&R Block commercial), some love the thrill of not being in control (the badboy syndrome), some because they trust their man, understand his position of sacrifice and HONOR him (because she will learn contempt for him if she pushes him around; what kind of man…).

    So Denise, it is not the choice had that is bad or good, but the REASON for the choice that makes it healthy or unhealthy.

  • Charles Fockaert

    “I agree that our system is a matriarchy. But my point is that there are some women — few and far between, of course — who, like some men, have comepletely rejected the “system” and operate outside it for the most part.”

    Yes, those woman are few and far between – in the US culture, but not in other cultures. Feminism is ruining our culture. Men are seeking what our culture used to be – but in other countries.

    I believe that our Christian Predominately Protestant culture has been systematically and purposedly undermined by a group of people more diabolical then we care to admit to.

  • Torquemada

    Charles, they aren’t more diabolical than I care to admit. The world has perhaps never seen a force more evil and destructive than liberalism, which is akin to a mental disorder (actually, it’s something worse).

    Thurston,

    I would say that it IS the correct choice, however, as with all choices — good OR bad — it can be made for the right or wrong reason.

    Steven Guess,

    Here’s my guess: you are an idiot. Of course spouses can serve each other; this accords with what St. Paul said in Ephesians, “Husbands and wives . . . be subject to each other.” I can have authority over my wife and still go out to work and bring home money for her. In other words, I am serving her by supporting her.

  • DeezNuts

    I graduated from a top 10 university.

    Pehaps that’s a sad statement in itself.

    Be as articulate as you want, I’m merely pointing out that most straight men won’t use the words, “sheer sophistry.”

    The comment was fruity, good humor about it on Amfortas part though.

    The “mangina alert” stands.

    However there is no harm in issuing an “idiot alert.” It should apply most college grads, and just about everyone else in our Idiocracy that is sadly going down in flames.

  • DeezNuts

    Special request: Can my beer hat’s guzzle tubes come out of a set of plastic boobs on the hat or what?

  • Torquemada

    Charles,

    The only problem that can arise with foreign women is that they can often be very naive and sometimes only adhere to patriarchal norms because that is what they’ve been accultured to. Thus, if they don’t have a sound basis for their beliefs, one that lies outside of culture (in truth), they will very likely become acculturated to our feminist norms once here for enough time.

    In other words, you don’t want a woman who is submissive because she is ignorant, but one who is so because she is enlightened.

  • DeezNuts

    What else can you expect from DeezNuts?

    Please govern yourselves accordingly.

  • http://www.washingtoncritic.com Steven Guess

    lol “In other words, you don’t want a woman who is submissive because she is ignorant, but one who is so because she is enlightened.”

    that’s the quote of the century. This is standard practice by conservatives who want to reinvent ancient and allegedly “backward” traditions as being modern. Isn’t there something odd about an enlightened person doing exactly the same thing as an ignorant person? HMM?

  • http://lovability.org amfortas

    DeezNuts: “I’m merely pointing out that most straight men won’t use the words, “sheer sophistry.”

    Ahhhaaa. So that’s a new identifyer. I haven’t even considered that one. So, anyone who uses that phrase is unlikely to be straight. Hmmmm

    I feel a kink coming on.

    Denise. Those stockings. One size fits all? Bring them here.

  • Luek

    If a man in a marriage or relationship with a woman is the so called dominant one in the said relationship he has enhanced responsibility to make the right decisions that benefit both. I view it like the relationship between a first sergeant and a commanding officer. The first sergeant’s input and advice to the commanding officer is essential but the CO makes the final decision. And if that decision turns out to be wrong then the CO is the one that has to answer for it not the first sergeant. It is a system that has worked for many years It is a question of just where the buck stops in a symbiotic relationship. We all have to be submissive in our daily lives. We have to submit to the will of the majority in elections. We have to submit to the directions and expectations of our employers. We all have to submit to the laws that are in force. Being submissive and/or obedient is not in itself an evil exploitation. It is necessary for civilization to delivery its benefits.

  • Torquemada

    Again, Mr. Wrong Guess, you demonstrate the wanting logic skills typical of liberal scum. Let’s see, you say it’s funny when an enlightened person does what an ignorant one does. Well, both people would eat, sleep, read, drink, and breathe. Both may also marry, have kids, buy cars and cultivate a spiritual life. Most significantly, when they have kids their motivation might be very different. The ignorant one may simply do so to fulfill himself, while the enlightened one may do so motivated by the desire to give another life and love. You see, same decision, entirely different motivations, one noble, one ignoble.

  • fourthwire

    “I graduated from a top 10 university.”

    Great!…. At what point during your academic years were you taught that men’s written communications need be limited to terse, broken, or otherwise pedestrian wording?

    Amfortas writes in his dialect of English fairly articulately.

    Perhaps that characteristic brands him as a “mangina” to the likes of you……..

    ……. but in that case, your parents deserve their tuition money back.

    “The comment was fruity, good humor about it on Amfortas part though.”

    Not nearly as your apparent grasp of the English language…… and yes, Amfortas does possess a fine sense of humor.

    “The “mangina alert” stands. However there is no harm in issuing an “idiot alert.””

    Not only is there no harm in issuing an idiot alert, in this particular case it’s practically a given…..;-)

  • fourthwire

    Thanks, Mike. I could not possibly agree more.
    cheers!

  • http://lovability.org amfortas

    My University (ies, actually, as well as the ones I have taught in) were pretty good ones too, my critical boyos. My MSc research dissertation was triple what one usually finds in a US PhD and is used throughout the aviation world as a text. But lets not get into a ‘mine’s bigger than your’s’ fight about it.

    My grammar and syntax is impeccable though my typing leaves a great deal to be desired.

    But back to the subject at hand. I like smart, feisty women. I admire a good brain. (I like them curvy too with a pretty face, nice legs, a cute bum and warm, inviting breasts…. add in more).

    I admire people who can stand up for themselves – as long as they don’t try to tread on me. I like an articulate women who can hold her own end in a conversation, arguement, discussion, decision, without rancour and preferably some humour. I love women who love me. I don’t like autocratic, jumped-up little shits, men or women. One of me is enough.

    I don’t rely on two thousand year old texts written by others with a poor grasp of the range of ways of living, who elevate their own Lordship over others as the way for everyone. I take responsibility and expect a woman with me to take responsibility too.

    I have not quite been a first sgt. I never made it into the Sergeant’s Mess. But I was a troop, and NCO and made it all the way up to CO too. Marriage, thankfully, isn’t an armed force, despite all the fighting that often goes on. The analogy doesn’t cut it in my book.

    I prefer the best decisions irrespective of who makes them. Joint ones, in marriage, are usually the better ones. Both go up or fall together. Truth and reason and reasonableness are my guides. I carry my can and let others carry theirs. Both hands on the handle help sometimes and is loving.

    I strongly believe that men and women ought to be equal before the law and before God. All this submission business cuts no ice with me. Children are subordinate to parents. Neither parent ought to play the child. How a couple organises their living arrangements is no one’s business but theirs. Our current major problems arise from far too many people being proscriptive and prescriptive for others.

    I love women. The right ones. The ‘good women’. The women who respect Truth, fairness, equality. I like women who don’t run to Authority at the drop of a hat to play ‘let’s you and him fight’, nor to an ism getting ‘support’ from hairy-legged harridans, but rely on their own best judgement – just as I have to.

    I have no interest at all in telling a woman how to live her life. That’s her responsibility. She’s an adult. Big girls have strong shoulders. I can and do tell them my expectations, my desires, my needs. They matter. So do hers.

    What a wimpy mangina I must appear to some. What a loser. Take me as you find me or f*ck off.

  • fourthwire

    “My University (ies, actually, as well as the ones I have taught in) were pretty good ones too, my critical boyos.”

    Other than that abject genius Deeznuts, has anyone else been critical of you on this board, Amfortas?

    “What a wimpy mangina I must appear to some. What a loser. Take me as you find me or f*ck off.”

    Nicely put. Sounds like an Aussie man to me………

  • Torquemada

    amfortas,

    Again, you’ve bought into a lie. There’s no such thing as an “equal relationship”; it doesn’t exist, never has and never will.

    I’ll also reiterate that this is just one reason why I’d never be a “masculinist”; you guys have accepted some of the suppositions of feminism, only you don’t know it. You complain about the injustices that an overthrow of tradition has visited upon men, but then think that you can remedy them while leaving tradition on the junk heap. Nice pipe dream.

    I’m going to say this as tactfully as I can. If you guy’s conception of what makes for a good marriage were sound, you wouldn’t have had so many failed ones. So many of you talk as if there’s no way to find a good woman, as if they’re all manipulative shrews (and many are, don’t get me wrong), but you don’t realize that you sound the same as the feminists who say all men are pigs. The reason why you and them feel as you do is that you apply the wrong criteria when choosing mates. You don’t know what to look for, look for the wrong thing, and then when you get the wrong thing are surprised.

    Those who have ears will hear, those who have eyes will see.

  • http://lovability.org amfortas

    Ahh, Torquemada, my friend, nothing is perfect. We aspire. We try. We cock things up, mostly by mistake, and spend much time uncocking things. (I have made four typos and corrected them already). That perfection of anything may not be achieveble is no reason not to get as close as we possibly can. Think on that next time you cross a bridge.(two more typos, corrected)

    I have not bought into a lie. At least I don’t see where. Perhaps you could point it out to me. I haven’t made any claim to achieving an equal relationship, simply pointed to some of the means by which we may approximate to one.

  • BobH

    I’d like a wife who is a RELIABLE ally who will work to improve my life. If that means that she’s “subservient”, then so be it. Most American women demand to be “trusted” and “respected” while simultaneously demanding to be well paid when they betray you. I simply don’t need the anxiety that these mixed signals create.

    I have to laugh when a women complains that I’m “afraid of strong women”. None of these women knows the difference between a strong woman and an obnoxious bitch.

  • http://lovability.org amfortas

    Forthwire, you put up a fine appreciation of my comments without having to agree. You were not one of the ‘boyos’. But there was grizzlyantagonist, even our good friend conservativation, reliable fellows both usually, having a dig. As well as DeezNuts who is, well, nuts. As my laughter attested, I did not take offence by any of them. I don’t expect people to agree with me all the time. I do expect digs and criticisms. And I am enjoying this.

    Denise, where that bloody tin of Fosters!

    (Notice how quiet she’s been!! Obviously in the kitchen. God, you don’t think she’s waiting in the bedroom for us to stop all the arguing and come to bed, do you?)

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/denise-noe/ Denise Noe

    Amfortas: (Notice how quiet she’s been!! Obviously in the kitchen. God, you don’t think she’s waiting in the bedroom for us to stop all the arguing and come to bed, do you?)

    (Denise) No. I’m looking for drawers for the right stockings for you and I, Amfortas.

  • conservativation

    Amfortas: I hoped you didn’t and wouldn’t take offense, as well you know I intended none. As to the critical comments about the “Queen’s English”, I greatly enjoy your cadence and your, at times, unique usage. In fact, you’ve inspired me to pay closer attention to grammar and syntax from now on, and to cut and paste from somewhere with a spell check. What’s a few extra minutes to make a better read for your online friends, right? (A nod back to you as well in the reliability department)

    Maybe you could accuse Mike of censoring you and get your own front-page piece on your take on submission!

    Let me briefly speak to the religious issue. This is not apologetics but an attempt to point out that it seems you are walking into unfamiliar waters based on having looked over the surface (only) for a good number of years

    “I don’t rely on two thousand year old texts written by others with a poor grasp of the range of ways of living, who elevate their own Lordship over others as the way for everyone.”

    Are you saying that life advice contained in said text is useless because it offers no advice for so many different, as you put it, ranges of ways to live? That kind of live and let live philosophy kind of got us here in the first place. They do nothing of the sort of elevating their own Lordship over others, and while you may have encountered some very pious morons around, the ancient text does not back them. Rather it suggests that these suggested ways of conducting a life, family, and society will ultimately lead to less conflict, less stress, less problems in general than other ways. I once perceived exactly as you do, and at risk of this seeming a conversion testimonial I leave it at that.

    “I like articulate women who can hold her own end in a conversation, argument, discussion, decision, without rancor and preferably some humor. I love women who love me. I don’t like autocratic, jumped-up little shits, men or women.”

    Who doesn’t? We are agreed here.

    “I prefer the best decisions irrespective of who makes them. Joint ones, in marriage, are usually the better ones. Both go up or fall together. Truth and reason and reasonableness are my guides.”

    It sounds all so very reasonable. This is what provokes my citation of utopia. How do you reach a joint decision if there are heels dug in disagreements? What if truth and reason are not HER guides but rather emotion? For as long as I live you will never convince me that any man and women are ever, through truth, reason, or ouija board, going to reach joint decisions 100% of the time. I submit its not even on the extreme but that this kind of agreement cannot be reached 75% of the time. What then? Without a tangible answer to that question the dismissal of submission is not serious.

    “Our current major problems arise from far too many people being proscriptive and prescriptive for others. I have no interest at all in telling a woman how to live her life. That’s her responsibility.”

    I agree again. Let’s take a poll. Is it merely cliché or truth that women will tend to believe they can change or tame the guy they love after marriage? Do they see him completely different as “Mr. Her Name Here” as he is as Mr. Him? Exceptions of course exist, but I say its not cliché to say that women set about changing men after marriage, and he either bends (submits, hen packed, choose your term) or lives with nagging and bitching, well, forever. (Incidentally that ancient text says it better to live in the corner of a dark attic than to suffer the nagging of a woman, which is equated to slowly dripping water torture not bad for a couple thousand year old ignorant blokes) I’ll walk onto the limb alone and say in general women are the ones doing most of the prescriptive and
    proscriptive emoting telling HIM how THEY should live THEIR life.

    “Children are subordinate to parents. Neither parent ought to play the child.”

    We are discussing submission, not subordination. There is a massive difference.

    “What a wimpy mangina I must appear to some. What a loser. Take me as you find me or f*ck off”

    You can stay.

    “I haven’t made any claim to achieving an equal relationship, simply pointed to some of the means by which we may approximate to one.”

    But amfortas, in approximating one you allow for it not being equal, but you fail to delve into the part(s) that are unequal and how those days are lived. The other days are great, but on inequality day what the hell then?

  • conservativation

    Quickly, thanks amfortas, I failed to mention that you are in the exclusive club of people who get my screen name correct. Most glance and call me conservation, an outdated 70′s term for an obsessive compulsive recycler.

  • thurston861

    conservativation has resolved Ms. Noe’s question.

    The biblical points about living with a contentious woman being like water torture, and it being better to live alone or in a tent, or eat a dry crust in order to avoid having to live with such a woman is certain.

    Although it comes from Proverbs and is over 2000 years old I dare say that none will stand against its points stated above.

    Isn’t it simple to see that the Proverb is true in drawing a precise picture of what the Feministas have done to America and us?

    It is better to be alone.

    This is why men look for a submissive woman. It is simple fact and logic. Just look at what so many here have complained about.

    It is now answered Denise. Not only is such a standard bibilical, it is logical, and leads to peace, and happiness.

    Otherwise the man can go away (unless he lives in Michigan, he is now POW, Prisoner of Woman and can be punished for leaving quietly in the night), as he has a right to seek peace.

    A submissive woman is the best bet at reaching that goal.

    I am sorry that it is so simple, but some people just insist on living happy, funcitional, peaceful lives in each other’s arms, feminista’s be damned.

  • Torquemada

    I see that many of you blokes agree with me, and that’s refreshing. And one of you mentioned that spouses will never be in agreement 100% of the time. I alluded to this as well, and I will once again quote C.S. Lewis, “You cannot have a democracy of two because the votes cancel each other out.”

    Who get’s the cast the deciding vote? You may say that there should be compromise but, first, not every issue has a middle ground. Second, compromise doesn’t always lead to the correct decision.

    Most significantly, women are not suited to or designed for decision-making or leadership roles. This is largely because they work on an emotional level, whereas decisions are supposed to be the domain of intellect. We are supposed to lead with our heads, not hearts.

    And most of you know exactly what I’m talking about. You’ve dealt with illogical, mood-swinging, irrational women who have mistaken their emotionalism for logic. And when they are so, can you LOGICALLY explain to them why their EMOTION-based decisions aren’t logical? No! Of course you can’t. If they could identify and understand logic, they wouldn’t be making emotion-based decisions in the first place. It’s like trying to describe colors to a blind man.

    There’s only one kind of man who thinks women are his equals intellectually: a moron.

    Now, Amfortas, you asked what I meant when I said you had bought into a lie? Here’s how I’ll present it: you dismissively said that you didn’t need ancient texts to help you make decisions. In reality, though, everyone follows something, whether he realizes it or not. You are following the doctrines of our times when you embrace the notion that equality is one of the highest values one could subscribe to. Who ever said it was? It may be fashionable now to believe this and, for sure, you’re not supposed to be considered a “good person” if you don’t. But the fact remains that our worship at the altar of equality is contrary to what millennia of wisdom has taught. We go OVERBOARD with it.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m not suggesting we return to the days of monarchy and royality, with nobles who are considered better than everyone else simply because they have the right pedigree. What I am saying, though, is that equality, just like anything else, can be take to an extreme. In certain contexts people should be treated equally, but not in all. And a civlilization that does not acknowledge just hierarchies cannot long perpetuate itself.

    Really, the idea of “equality” should be scrapped altogether. It has become a sickening buzzword that’s used to justify the most odious social engineering schemes. What is missed is that people should be afforded DIGNITY, but not necessarily equality.

    What is the difference? No sane person would even think of affording a child equality — we know that children shouldn’t enjoy the full rights of adulthood. But that doesn’t mean we value a child’s life any less. We still afford him the dignity that any human being deserves.

    Equality is a myth, one that, if indulged too fervently, leads to social breakdown and, ultimately, the destruction of civilization.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com Mike LaSalle

    Women are, as a whole, comfortably compliant to their own men. That, I think, is a truism.

    This commonly held picture of an ideal “stable relationship” is one in which the man is decisive and the woman is confirming.

    I realize that this an offensive idea among people who identify themselves as “feminist” – that is, most of the professional urban world.

    “And yet it moves…” said Galileo.

  • fourthwire

    Mike, not only would people who identify themselves as “feminist” find your truism to be “offensive”……………..

    ……… your very act of stating that truism “oppresses” many of those same individuals.

    Given that you are a card-carrying member of the brutally oppressive patriarchy, your ideas about what consititutes an ideal “stable relationship” between man and woman is suspect to them anyway………;-)

  • conservativation

    Torquemada: Im glad you said all that. Im ashamed actually that I danced around it even as I thought it. Why? Well, fear has been conditioned into me like most men, even us fear overcomers.
    But it is so true. How many times have you had that argument w/ your spouse, GF, whatever, that left you so incredibly frustrated because it was so dead on obvious what you were saying. (my wife once told me I was the worst communicator she knew, and that not a single one of her friends could follow my thought process at all, and all the while I considered myself at least an average conversationalist) She though, goes round and round rarely if ever addressing the point, then employs my oft mentioned favorite forensic “tactic”. She states something 100% true, something you cannot disagree with, but its 100% irrelevant, then smugly watches you squirm saying that it was irrelevant, which even to you sounds lame even while its correct. How can you have a linear discussion w/ that? And back to the point here, therefore how can you arrive at meaningful agreement when in truth its near impossible to even really discuss things in a logical manner.

  • http://lovability.org amfortas

    Thanks fellows. All. I do shoot off sometimes.

    The biblical bit was dismissive. I shall back peddle a touche. Yes, old experience can often be useful and instructive. It is where it becomes precriptive that I get annoyed. It is when people resort to ‘telling’ that I bristle, or where they use it as an excuse for thinking. Resort to ‘Authority’ is an informal fallacy form.

    The ‘overboard’ comment can be applied to ‘submission’ as a strategic imperative, and is a word frankly that I do not like.

    Thurston861 is correct to point to the proverb but omits an important proviso. Where eating dry dust becomes a sought option, love has died. It ain’t no more. One is in shit street already. I address my comments to the context of two who love one another and seek better options for one another’s comfort and sustenance.

    conservativation, I had to go back to your name three times to get it right! See how hard I try and I don’t even love you. Hahaha.

    You raise the old but perennially interesting issue of ‘changing’ a person. It is almost axiomatic that she will try to change him. But acknowledgement of her changes to suit him needs to be articulated more often too. One major ‘good’ to come from marriage (or even its various deformations) is the close proximity to habits and the modes of being of the opposite sex. It is hugely instructive. It also requires accomodation. Change is inevitable (in or out of marriage, change happens)and many men benefit emormously from the dicipline of the ‘woman’s way’. Women too benefit just as much by accomodating to the things she learns from her man and his way of being in the world. It is through being so intimate that we broaden our experience and understanding of being human, not simply male and female. Show me a man and I will show you someone who would be content to live in a cave and eat roots and the odd stray dog. We guys are very natural beings. Were it up to us, we would still be in the cave. My goodness, women can be demanding, but look where it has got us. Nice houses that are clean, with chairs and toilets to hide in. hahaha

    Torquemada, I agree that the word ‘equality’ has been overused, beaten, transmorgified (to use Fitzgerald) and turned to mendacious use. But maybe you can cut me some slack here. I am trying to use the word realistically.

    100% agreement not possible all the time? No. Of course not. That’s when diplomacy is called for, Quid pro quo maybe. Co-operation is better than competition in a marriage, where seeking a solution that serves both well is sought by both and owned by both. It doesn’t have to be soley compromise but neither does it have to fall back onto just one person always having the final voice. That leads to confrontation, now or later and in many different forms. That is what we get when nagging occurs. No one likes naggers, but then few like autocrats either who demand the last word comes from their dick.

    Mike says most women are comfortably compliant with their own men. I would add that most men are comfortably compliant with their own women. And a caveat is needed – That they love each other. When they don’t, compliant turns to complaint or silent resentment.

    Be careful O dominant ones, It is an observable across many many couples in a dominant-submissive relationship that competition is the underlying mode and the submissive one undermines and eventually always wins. Marriage is intended to be a win-win, not a win-lose.

    Seeking ‘equality’, even if never absolutely totally realized, at least provides a point of departure for seeking our adult way through thorny times. Some ducking and weaving will always be called for.

    (Nice to see you are still with us Denise. You have set a great conversation going here with your stance. I am not sure from the way you presented your argument whether you are simply putting a point of view that some people have, clarifying someone else’s view, or articulation your own view. Care to say?)

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/2007/01/31/inferior-patriarchies-and-submissive-women/ Inferior Patriarchies and Submissive Women

    [...] This Post Was Written in Response to a Thoughtful and Provocative Piece by Denise Noe entitled,  Defending men who want subservient or submissive wives. [...]

  • David R. Usher

    Radical feminists converted marriage, which is not an exercise in domination or submission, into a sick belief that it is.

    The concept of man as “head of the household” is largely symbolic — a reflection of the fact that fatherhood is a necessary social creation, whereas marriage is a biological fact (Margeret Mead); in which marriage provides a natural balance of needs and power in a structure that tremendously benefits societies who protect it.

    Even biblical references evoke this balance: the husband has the final say, when agreement cannot be reached, but he is supposed to listen to her very carefully. This balance, and built-in tiebreaker, prevents the very loggerheads that feminists wish to inject into marriage.

    Feminists have turned all relationships between men and women into perverse exercises in domination and submission. Any psychologist will tell you that powerplays are the hallmark of a dysfunctional relationship. It is this dysfunctionality that feminist cultists brainwashed western cultures into believing.

    Suffragettes did not want the right to vote to destroy marriage or run the world. These principles came directly from the WKKK, from which most of the exact language of the first-wave feminists came in the 1960′s. And, as we now know, WKKK feminists took the same methods and principles practiced by the KKK, substituing men for blacks, and proceeded to destroy the very fabric of society without anyone noticing.

    It is very important for historians and scholars to make an issue about the history of feminism and where it came from. There is nothing to fear in pointing out where hate is coming from in Western cultures. Until feminism is exposed, and is put down just as the KKK was, western cultures will remain in great trouble, with unnacceptable levels of poverty, violence, and crime — their welfarist societies struggling — while countries with strong marriage values clean our whistles in the world economy.

  • http://www.washingtoncritic.com Steven Guess

    Mr. Usher – Normally, I’d leave you to your fantasies, but this one was too hard to ignore. Societies with strong standards of equal rights tend to be the developed economic countries, in part because they utilize the other 50% of their labor potential instead of letting it languish in important, but not necessarily productive, capacities.

    But did you really mean to suggest that the United States’ 10 Trillion a Year Economy is having its “whistles cleaned” by the rest of the world? What world are you referring to?

  • http://lovability.org amfortas

    SG, this is sheer mendacity. “Societies with strong standards of equal rights tend to be the developed economic countries, in part because they utilize the other 50% of their labor potential instead of letting it languish in important, but not necessarily productive, capacities.”

    You imply that the one precedes the other. You even give a shonky reason. What a load of nonesense. It is reality that developed economic countries have strong standards of equal rights, not the other way around. And the two are not necessarily linked. And their advance economically has nothing to do with utilising ‘the other 50%’ at all but from technological progress and innovation, sound trade practices, market forces and scientific brilliance, all lead by men. Women’s contribution to the economic development of advanced countries hardly raises a blip on the radar.

    One only has to look at the forced labour of Communist countries where women were forced into the workforce ‘participation’ and equal rights were resticted to equal opportunity to get shot of carted off to the gulags to see that. Those countries were hardly models of economic development regardless of the gender balance in the workforce. Nor were they in the slightest bit interested in ‘right’s for anyone.

    Jesus, which University did you go to? Patrice Lamumba?

  • David R. Usher

    We have tremendous trade deficits with asian countries, all of whom have strong marriage values. Our jobs our being exported their. The main reason why America cannot compete is no longer because of Unions, it is because huge dericits and the welfare state (1/2-trillion annually) sop everything. You have to work until sometime in April or May just to pay all your taxes.

    The chinese are very smart. They think we are nuts, but instead of attacking us like Muslim countries, they are doing business to lift themselves out of Maoist socialism, while censoring everything feminist (that is what Tienamen Square was all about). China will not allow a Bolshevik revolution. Singapore has been doing the same thing for years. It is the safest place on the planet, an extremely comfortable place to live, and rather expensive. I know because I used to do a lot of work over there. One cannot understand America, until one works overseas and finds out what we really look like from outside the bubble.

    All America has to do is walk away from feminism, get back to Marriage Values and solid social policy, and then we will be in a very strong social and economic situation compared to Europe. We must do this, because the Euro is on its way to becoming the dominant world currency (something they have been working on for twenty years). They accomplished this partially by letting lots of poor (but marriage minded economies) into the EEC, essentially throwing open the borders. With a lot of cheap labor, and nonfeminist countries with high birth rates into the camp, they have made themselves quite competitive, despite the fact that the legacy Euro countries are far more socialist than we are.

    Now, for those who want to know why Bush is so unexplainably adamant about throwing open the borders to Mexico, (which nobody heretofore has explained) it is to do the same thing in America to level the playing field.

    Just remember, you read the explanation first, right here on Men’s News Daily, not on Town Hall or anywhere else in the Dino political complex. This is where the real analysis of the world situation is going on.

  • http://lovability.org amfortas

    An issue that no one seems to have considered in all of this ‘Men in Charge’, bizzo is good old neglectful, dangerous Mother Nature.

    Patriarchies did not come about by ego. It wasn’t a ‘sexist’ initiative. It wasn’t by Divine decree passed through sheepherders.

    Women died in childbirth. The odds of a woman surviving childbirth were slim to middling. Hygiene, medicine, medical technologies, skilled as opposed to traditional nursing care and attention are taken for granted today but they are very, very recent in the scheme of things.

    Families depended on Fathers, who had a 100% childbirth survival rate, even before cigars.

    Anyone care to comment on how this has affected the ‘dominant / submissive’ issue?

  • http://www.washingtoncritic.com Steven Guess

    amfortas – I did not argue that if you have equal rights, it therefore means you will have economic development. That being said, I very much could have made that argument, because there is strong evidence to suggest that is the case. I did however point out that Mr. Usher’s argument that our nation is somehow deficient economically because of our equal rights, is absurd.

    Take a look, for example, at this state department report on property rights and women’s health issues:

    http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2006&m=December&x=20061207090840akllennoccm0.5381433

    What is the economic and social cost to society for its inequities?

  • http://lovability.org amfortas

    SG: “I did not argue that if you have equal rights, it therefore means you will have economic development.”

    No, you didn’t. but I didn’t say you did, either SG, so why imply that I did?

    Why devise a new sentence and ascribe it to me? Is this the way you argue?

    It is typically feminist to put words into someone’s mouth only to knock their teeth out. Mendacity on mendacity.

    No, you said – “Societies with strong standards of equal rights tend to be the developed economic countries, in part **because** they utilize the other 50% of their labor potential ….” which is a clear expression of cause in your mind and a dependency on women’s labour.

    I mearly argued that cause has not been shown and demonstrated otherwise. I even said that the two concepts do not have to be linked.

    Get a grip, man.

  • http://www.washingtoncritic.com Steven Guess

    Mr Usher you have not a single shred of evidence to support your thesis. You assume several important facts 1) American marriage values are weak (who makes that judgement, you?) 2) Asian marriage values are strong 3) The subjective “Strong marriage values” improve economic development.

    In fact, a survey of Chinese history disputes your entire account, just as a single example. Prior to the Communist Revolution in China, many traditional values in China like “foot binding” were common, but with the implimention of Marxism (admittedly an economically retarded worldview, if not socially conscious) we saw most of those social conventions die away in East Asia. And yet from 1949 to the modern era, Chinese economic growth has boomed, and in the last 25 years (Deng Xiaoping to present) we’ve seen it go even faster, not because they’ve rolled back the Marxist socialist values, but because they’ve embraced capitalist values. Come on, be honest.

    Not to mention, the entire story of Japan refutes your testimony. Post-War Japan is a far more gender-just society than it was pre-war, while admittedly there is still a long way to go. And yet we see the economic development there booming.

    But the MOST important reason why your thesis is completely false is you totally lack any perspective on American economic progress, as well as the per capita wealth we enjoy that most of the Asian countries like – as the development you cite is highly disproportionate and lacking in any serious Middle Class. Urban China might be cited as an exception, but the percentage of Chinese that live in urban populations (which are far more progressive, btw) than rural populations is relatively small.

    It’s fine to cite unfounded economic claims, people do it all the time, but don’t try and make a movement out of it.

  • http://lovability.org amfortas

    SG, with the anaytical brilliance of the order you show, you will make a fine advisor to President Hilarious. Is that your aspiration I wonder.

  • http://lovability.org amfortas

    Or maybe an intern might be a good start. Your Everest. Your Mount Blanc. If her proclivities with interns are similar to BillyBobs, you will have to start with her Hill of Venus.

  • Charles Fockaert

    “Mr Usher you have not a single shred of evidence to support your thesis.”

    How wrong you are, again. Here are some quotes from women on an on-line dating site in Asia:

    “i want a man who love me and also to marry and love me foreever and understanding and good attitude”

    “im looking someday future husband,and care with me also,catch me if u like..”

    “Seeking

    very generous, down to earth, God fearing, lovable, romantic, a lot of patience and would love to be with a woman for life.”

    “im loking for a simple, kind, understanding and very sweet man, romantic looking forward to have a gud husband in the future..”

    “seeking honest and God fearing person.”

    “AM LOOKING FOR A VERY NICE, KIND, LOVING AND CARING MAN WHO WILL BE ABLE TO TAKE OF ME FINANCIALLY AND IN EVERY OTHER ASPECT OF LIFE.”

    “the guy must be honest and faithful. caring and loyal.”

    My eldest son is a handsome guy, owns his own busines, nice house, lots of money. Won’t get married to an American woman. Why? He saw what happened to his dad. Enough evidence for ya?

    I’ve been to Singapore several times. Never seen a cop that I remember of. Compare that to the check points the US Police State is erecting all through the northern boundary near Canada on the excuse of fighting terrorism.

    The US is getting it’s ass kicked and most of you don’t even realize it.

  • http://lovability.org amfortas

    But Charles, with respect, that’s what they all say at one time or another. Its what they said when you weren’t listening last week and what they say a few years after marriage these days, no matter where they come from. The virus spreads like bird-flu only better.

    I love women but I do not trust them any more. Even if they were wearing a Nun’s outfit. That’s the legacy of feminism. I can be pleasant and enjoy women’s company but even the good women have to go to extaordinary lengths now to convince me. Good women have broken their word far too often.

  • http://www.washingtoncritic.com Steven Guess

    Charles – I hope Mr. Usher has more than dating websites to backup his claims. I mean, is that a joke? You find a bunch of quotes by women who want a traditional guy and that proves traditional marriage boosts the gross domestic product?

    Not to puncture any holes in your thesis. But ASSUMING it were true that those quotes constitute evidence, there’s already a sign of bias. People write ads to make themselves sound appealing. These women are looking to be “purchased” by American men, and therefore are likely to try and appeal to those American men in order to be marketable. It’s not as if Asia doesn’t have enough men for them to find a traditional one. It’s about money.

    If anything, those quotes suggestion America has more traditional values than asia (home of the kiddy sex trade).

  • PolishKnight

    What men want

    Not to puncture any holes in your thesis. But ASSUMING it were true that those quotes constitute evidence, there’s already a sign of bias. People write ads to make themselves sound appealing. These women are looking to be “purchased” by American men, and therefore are likely to try and appeal to those American men in order to be marketable. It’s not as if Asia doesn’t have enough men for them to find a traditional one. It’s about money.

    Actually, it’s interesting how you put that: Such women write ads to be marketable. My experience with personal ads in the states was that many arrogant and desperate professional women simply wrote a laundry list of what they wanted in a mate without thinking twice about what he might want. They came across as: “SWF, thirty something, biological clock ticking (but won’t admit it even to herself), wants a wussy American male with a decent income to shag for a while until she gets bored and divorces him and reduces him to a slave. These women were in their 30′s and still hadn’t figured out yet why Prince Equal hadn’t ridden up to their doorstep…

    Anyways, women who are actually proactive enough to market themselves do so based both on what they perceive American men wanting but also what men want IN GENERAL. Presumably, American men assume that foreign women like money just like American women like money, for example. If these women perceived that men really dug enlightened career women, they could write such an ad but they know that there are already plenty of such women locally in the states so what’s the point?

  • PolishKnight

    Economics class in California apparently didn’t teach Steven that “Correlation is not causality.”

    “Societies with strong standards of equal rights tend to be the developed economic countries, in part because they utilize the other 50% of their labor potential instead of letting it languish in important, but not necessarily productive, capacities.”

    Was the U.S. in the 1940′s and 50′s, hardly an example of a country focused upon equal rights for women, an “undeveloped” country? Switzerland didn’t give women the right to vote until the mid-70′s. Was that a barbaric third world nation?

    Hell, GW Bush gave women a bunch of rights in Iraq and that hasn’t made it into a western paradise yet.

    On the contrary: The resources needed to handhold women in the workplace probably have undermined living standards in the west. During the 50′s, people imagined us all having flying cars and food pills. Instead, we now have trillions of dollars being spent on roads that are congested with too many workers, welfare programs to bail out children in single mother households, prisons to house all the young men being produced by these households, discrimination against men in the workplace, etc.

    Progress isn’t always a good thing. We have a much higher “carbon footprint” than third world nations and higher gasoline consumption.

    If anything, the fantasy notion of political correctness and starry-eyed marxist marxist and feminist ideals are continually in danger and in need of shoring up. Without illegal immigrants from these same cultures where women are not treated as equals, the democratic party wouldn’t win anymore elections because career women don’t have so many children. Darwin, to his credit, was right on that one.

  • conservativation

    Typical American personals ad from woman

    Friends First…these words appear in the title (go to yahoo personals, do a search using friends first as keywords) and/or the text something like, friends first and see what happens. This is nothing but a cyber chastity belt. Its VERY unPC but most men will go shoot pool w/ buds instead of looking for friends first online. Im not saying I expect ten minute laydowns, its the lack of willingness on womens part to see that a middle ground exists where the problem resides. Even in this, the “differentness”(sic) of mans drive is highlighted and delegitimized.

    The other one is “I have a X year old who is MY LIFE and NO MAN will come between blah blah. Uh Huh, well I’ll look for ya after yer next divorce there dear.

    Polish is exactly right. If these American women are just advertising and are in competition w/ these “3rd world lasses” well is it a wonder American gals say there are no good men left?

  • Denis

    “They accomplished this partially by letting lots of poor (but marriage minded economies) into the EEC, essentially throwing open the borders. With a lot of cheap labor, and nonfeminist countries with high birth rates into the camp, they have made themselves quite competitive, despite the fact that the legacy Euro countries are far more socialist than we are.”

    Utter nonsense. Hispanics that come here are more socially conservative than the average American citizen. But second, third etc. generation Hispanics have fatherlessness rates higher than in the Black community (around 70% of Black families). Unrestrained immigration is another nail in the coffin for America.

    Now, for those who want to know why Bush is so unexplainably adamant about throwing open the borders to Mexico, (which nobody heretofore has explained) it is to do the same thing in America to level the playing field.

    Utter nonsense. Outsiders will not change American culture from being highly feminised. They will become highly feminised themselves starting at generation number two.

    Just remember, you read the explanation first, right here on Men’s News Daily, not on Town Hall or anywhere else in the Dino political complex. This is where the real analysis of the world situation is going on.

    I’ll try and forget instead. You are starting to get full of yourself.

  • fourthwire

    “People write ads to make themselves sound appealing. These women are looking to be “purchased” by American men, and therefore are likely to try and appeal to those American men in order to be marketable. It’s not as if Asia doesn’t have enough men for them to find a traditional one. It’s about money.”

    And those American women who marry in order to get their sperm donation and access to men’s ATM cards, with entitlements to future vaginamony payments………… aren’t they looking to be “purchased” as well?

    It’s about money……..

    At least those women born in those nations relatively untainted by feminism are more likely to remain married than American women.

    Or does the mercenary nature of many American women ALSO escape you, Stephanie?…;-)

  • http://www.washingtoncritic.com Steven Guess

    Polish – you need to express your wisdom to Mr. Usher, not me. There is absolutely no causation that he can use to prove “marriage values” leads to higher economic productivity.

  • PolishKnight

    I try to shy away from “proving” things to people because that puts the ball in their court. But even so, I do believe it’s possible to make a compelling argument to cause someone discomfort to deny. In other words, I don’t strive to get people to admit that they have a nose on their face but rather get them all blustered in attempting to claim otherwise. That’s when I know I’ve won.

    Anyways, in answer to your challenge, I have proposed that “family values” requires less infrustructure to achieve results than the massive welfare/feminist state that is in continual need of fresh funding. Look at it this way: If the war in Iraq is considered a failure because it didn’t end within a short period of time, what does that say about leftist goals that now require more money than ever to achieve diminishing returns? Public education for the poor is a failure, the university system continues to see tuitions skyrocket despite (or because of) federal funding, poverty and homelessness are massive (especially when republicans are president, less reported when Democrats are in office :-) , single career women’s birth rates are plummetting in Europe and the U.S. despite socialist benefits aimed mostly at them. If leftism worked, people would need LESS mommy state handouts, not more!

    Steven, it would appear that GW Bush isn’t the only one caught in a quagmire!

  • http://www.washingtoncritic.com Steven Guess

    if family values reduces the infrastructure to “achieve results” then that suggests it would have a negative impact on economic productivity because we would be producing less and spending less as a society. As I’m sure you know, that’s the basis of the GDP.

    In terms of diminishing returns, those are certainly a bad thing, and I don’t support them. But what diminishing returns are you referring to with marriage? I’m extremely perplexed by your usage of very meaningful words in very confusing ways.

    I don’t accept your thesis that federal funding causes homelessness, in particular we see societies with no federal spending (take Angola for example) doing quite poorly relative to America. I’d love to rip the rest of your commentary to shreds, but I must first point out that I’m not an advocate of socialism by any means, so you might want to save those arguments for some other liberal.

  • DeezNuts

    That there are 75+ comments here proves that if you are reading this, you are both an idiot and a mangina.

  • conservativation

    Deez, wow, both? Thaanks man, I was feeling down till now, especially I was looking for insightful commentary like yours, its been missing all day.

  • Charles Fockaert

    “if family values reduces the infrastructure to “achieve results” then that suggests it would have a negative impact on economic productivity because we would be producing less and spending less as a society.”

    What? Conflict is good for the economy? Family values have a negative impact on economic productivity? You must be the product of the public school system.

    Using your premise we should always have wars. Why not a civil war? – which is is basically what we have now – sans the bloodshed.

    The ones gaining economically from the feminist war on our culture are the divorce attorneys, who, as a group, reportedly ‘earn’ more than all other attorneys combined and regardless of whether their clients win or lose. And let’s not forget the judges, baliffs, counselors, child advocates, child support enforcers, jail guards for those not paying child support, ad infinitum.

    Those payments are not a negative drain on our society? Oh, those receiving the payments are doing well, and that is why they do everything they can to keep the status quo.

  • http://www.washingtoncritic.com Steven Guess

    Charles – this should be fun. it’s not conflict, my friend, you were suggesting that rather than the government investing in public infrastructure, the family takes that role. That, by definition, reduces productive output unless you can argue that strong marriage values lead to economic prosperity – which nobody did – instead Polish argued married couples “use less” to achieve “results” whatever that means. That doesnt boost GDP.

    And you are misrepresenting what I said. I didn’t argue as my premise “we should have wars” but yes wars to boost expendetures and promote economic growth, visa vie World War II bringing us out of the Great Depression. That’s the whole “military industrial complex” business Eisenhower mentioned. Nevertheless, there are negative consequences to wars too. I feel like you have a one-dimensional mind. Just because things have some good effects, like boosting the economy, doesn’t mean its socially optimal. I mean, fascism is great for restoring order – as long as youre now Jewish.

    Now in terms of your other arguments, I could rip that to shreds with a few case studies, but its clear that the economic evidence suggest a strong functioning judiciary is important for an economy to succeed. The expendetures on “judges baliffs, etc” are important in maintaining a justice system., which is integral institutionally to a well functioning market economy.

    And when you talk about a “negative drain on our society” I object to you for two reasons.

    1) Society makes choices all the time which hurt it financially but benefit it socially. We, for example, zone out pornography stores from being nearby schools. That’s not economically efficient, but we decide its inappropriately socially for our children. I don’t see how supporting rape victims, child counseling, etc, should be viewed as economic drains without a comparitive social gain, voted and decided on by the consent of the people (called Democracy).

    2) I don’t concede that it is a drain on society, because the social benefit outweights to social cost, in my view. Moreover, there is a cost to society for not having an institutional capability to deal with divorce proceedings and child custody issues. A comparative study in other countries would easily demonstrate that.

  • Charles Fockaert

    The infrastructure overhead for a society with high family values and strong stable families is much less than for a society with a high divorce rate and broken fatherless families, which is what the US has.

    I need not go into the stats that support that fact, they are legion and well known to any one who has taken the time to investigate.

    It doesn’t take a genius to understand that the less funds spent on divorce courts, attorneys and other family break down consequences the more funds that can be spent on education, health care, pension funding, etc.

    “but its clear that the economic evidence suggest a strong functioning judiciary is important for an economy to succeed.”

    Absolutely, but with family law, the courts don’t enforce the marriage contract, the most fundamental contract in any society, and instead, allow one party, usually the wife, to unilaterally break the contract for no-valid reason other than ‘I’m not happy” ie “irreconcible differences” and then reward the wife for breaking the contract by awarding her the house the car and the kids with an 18 year annuity to support her new lifestyle, while the husband is made a visitor to his children and has to now support two households. He then is excluded from his children’s lives altogether and yet still expected to make the annuity payments, and the same court that took away his children, don’t do a damn thing about that inequity.

    I think you’re basically incorrigible in your views as you have been brainwashed by years of feminist propaganda. I also would venture to guess you’ve never been through an American family law community property divorce. Maybe what you need is a good old fashioned feminist run family law court reaming to understand a man’s reality in today’s United States.

  • http://www.washingtoncritic.com Steven Guess

    it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that less overhead means higher unemployment, even if it means higher profit for a corporation. How you are arguing lower overhead creates higher productivity still remains to be seen.

    But I agree that there is a question of priorities, could public funds be more efficiently used? We can certainly reform our current judicial system, but that should not be confused with suggesting it doesn’t play a vital role in our society.

    Now, I don’t understand what you mean by the courts not ‘enforcing’ a marriage contract. Are you suggesting that courts deny a woman’s petition to divorce? It’s wrong to force a person who doesn’t want to stay in a marriage to keep them there. Not to mention the reason of “irreconciliable differences” is a gender neutral excuse than can be used by either men or women, I fail to see how its a feminist bias against men.

    As for your critiques of how family courts treat men, that’s fine, but it doesn’t rebut my above article, and it doesn’t address very much of feminist doctrine. I’ve never, in a single argument or post, suggested we should rip families apart or always give custody to women. In fact, I’ve suggested that nurturing-attitude towards women (as the caretaker for children) is part of that problem.

  • Charles Fockaert

    I saw some where you got a degree in economics from UC Berkeley. You should get a refund.

    “Are you suggesting that courts deny a woman’s petition to divorce? It’s wrong to force a person who doesn’t want to stay in a marriage to keep them there.”

    No, but it shouldn’t be the easiest contract in a society to break for ‘no-fault’ which in reality is ‘his-fault’ and then get rewarded for doing it and punish the party that didn’t do anything to break the contract by separating him from his children.

    What freedom is there in a country where the goverment can separate a father from his children and the children from the father for no other reason that the mother wants to break the contract? The United States was found on the idea that Americans are created with inalienable rights. Unbroken and unhindered companionship of a father with his children and the children with their father is certainly one of those inalienable rights.

    It’s those same God given rights that the feminist agenda is taking away from 50% of the society and their children.

  • http://www.washingtoncritic.com Steven Guess

    Charles – It’s not harder for a man to divorce his wife than it is for a wife to divorce a man. I don’t see where the law is biased in that regard. In terms of child custody, you’ll hear no objection from me. I’m not sitting hear crying out for all women to always get custody of children. If the courts are sexist about which sex is better suited to care for children, then take up with the “Patriarchy” and not me.

    Since you’ve gone after my economics degree, I’m going to type this slowly for you, lower overhead means fewer employees. Got it? So if you “reduce overhead” that means you are “reducing the number of employees” which would, ok are you with me still, which would “reduce employment.”

    The net effect can be a cost savings, but not necessarily efficiency gains or productivity increases. Think of your own place of employment Charles, when they fire people there does productivity rise? Not necessarily, but costs do go down. If that’s somehow translated into a productivity gains (how much is produced by your firm) that remains to be seen.

    But all this is very different from your “marriage values equals producitivity gains from ‘lower overhead’” theory. I simply don’t see it, and since you’re talking about a huge reduction in state expendetures and even private expendetures (changing laws which allow you to petition for custody etc) then it sounds to me like you’ve hurt the productivity of your society.

    Maybe it’s not a coincidence that all your “non feminist oasis” are third world countries. I’m not suggesting causality there, but civil rights and women’s rights seem to come along with improvements to education, wealth, and per capita status for a society. Call me crazy though.

  • PolishKnight

    My oh my, Steven Guess writes the rather audacious statement: it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that less overhead means higher unemployment, even if it means higher profit for a corporation.

    Apparently, it must mean I’m a genius because I can’t figure that out. Let’s try this: Let’s say that a restaurant saw it’s overhead in the form of rent or fuel expenses skyrocket. Would that mean more or less employment if their customer base dropped like a stone? The other way: Let’s imagine that fuel and rent costs went down along with their prices. Would they be hiring more or less workers as their customer base soared?

    Anyways, that’s just gravy. Here he says: instead Polish argued married couples “use less” to achieve “results” whatever that means. That doesnt boost GDP.

    If I argued such a thing, you could have at least used what I actually wrote rather than picking out two words and then putting a sentence between them.

    Here is what I argued: On the contrary: The resources needed to handhold women in the workplace probably have undermined living standards in the west. During the 50’s, people imagined us all having flying cars and food pills. Instead, we now have trillions of dollars being spent on roads that are congested with too many workers, welfare programs to bail out children in single mother households, prisons to house all the young men being produced by these households, discrimination against men in the workplace, etc.

    There is no mention of GDP in that. I talked about living standards or standard of living. Later, you write:

    2) I don’t concede that it is a drain on society, because the social benefit outweights to social cost, in my view.

    Which sums up your educated view quite nicely: You don’t have support or even an argument for your “view” so you just state it outright as a matter of faith. Other great “scientific” statements:

    “In my view, the world is flat”
    “In my view, Christianity is the one true religion”.
    “In my view, everyone should be forced to live under a theology because that’s the only right thing to do…”

    In other words, you’re no different than someone who goes to church and prays with the other true believers!

    If the social benefits outweighed the cost, then we would see such society’s being healthy and not subject to patterns of immigration to bring in cheap labor to work as nannies for a dying western population. Darwin had a simple way to tell if an “idea” or species worked or not: did it survive?

    One way or the other, this western liberalism which includes so-called equality for women is going down. What it will be replaced by is uncertain, but it’s end is already apparent.

  • new2blogs

    I am a Christian and although I believe men as Christians should obey scripture and be the dominate ones and head of the house. I find it as being nothing more than a FIGUREHEAD position, that is why I don’t bother.

    DcFather wrote everything I could imagine as to the reasons why I feel like a FIGUREHEAD and don’t bother anymore to lead them.

    “DcFather said,

    “She” cannot truly be submissive to “him”, because should any dispute go to a court of law, the rule of law is now that “she” wins. “She” gets the kids, the house, the car, and a monthly stipend just for being a “she”, and there is virtually nothing “he” can do about it. Therefore, any submission “she” agrees to is only temporary and revocable without notice or agreement.

    There is a maxim in business that goes something like “You can delegate authority, but not responsibility”. Well, in the world of “intimate partners”, we have the reverse. Women can delegate responsibility to men, but cannot delegate authority. It’s as good of an explanation as any as to why your marriage or relationship is more likely to fail than your business. Everything has to be the way “she” wants, and if it fails it is “his” fault, therefore “he” must pay.

    Mostly, it works best for children when “he” is in charge. Patriarchy made civilization possible, but that is for another discussion. However, feminism, money for lawyers, and political correctness have put the well-being of children on the wayside. Devotion to home and family for both men and women is nearly gone in favor of “what women want”.

    As an example, consider abortion. It’s all up to her whether or not their baby gets to live. We now even have legislators trying to pass laws to criminalize any action a man might take to narrow the entitlements that go along with “her” choice, such as his moving out of a shared home if she “chooses” differently than what he wants.

    Another good example is domestic violence. She can regularly beat him over the head with a frying pan, but if he calls the police it is he who will be arrested, spend time in jail, and be prosecuted. Nobody cares if there are children left behind unprotected from a violent and abusive mother, we prefer instead to pretend that all mothers are saints and all fathers are villains, even in the face of statistics that show women are more likely to abuse than men and the safest place for a child is in the home of his or her biological father.

    Of course this discussion would not be complete without discussing money. He must work and provide for her and any children. If he does not, he is considered a bum, and can be imprisoned for it as a “deadbeat” upon her “choice” to divorce, petition for child support, alimony, palimony, or some combination thereof. Her working is just another “choice”. She isn’t a bum, she is a homemaker. We don’t have “deadbeat moms”, we have “deadbeat dads”, even when men pay child support at higher compliance rates than women ordered to pay child support.

    Ultimately, any discussion of dominance and submission has to limited to the sphere of “her” agreement, however tentative. That is because our courts have decided that the vaginas are in charge, and the penises had better comply with “her choice” or face the sanctions of the state.”

  • Torquemada

    news2blogs,

    You neglect to consider something very significant. If a woman views man’s law as preeminent, it’s true, she will not have much respect for her husband’s authority. However, a true Christian not only understands that God’s law takes precedence but also will actually have contempt for man’s law insofar as it conflicts with the former. Therefore, a woman who is a true believer will feel enjoined to submit to her husband’s legitimate authority regardless of what the lilliputians’ law may say.

    Again, as I’ve said before, you’d have to be a true believer to understand. Some of us live in a completely different realm. But think about this: have you ever seen the Amish in divorce court? I’m not Amish, but I think you get the point.

  • thurston861

    SG – How do you make a woman, start with a man, and remove all sense of reason and accountability.

  • http://eso.terica.net/skinfilter/?p=27 Skin::filter() » Blog Archive » Now everyone’s just a little bit ticked.

    [...] Further, although the essay was listed as “a Response to a Thoughtful and Provocative Piece by Denise Noe entitled, Defending men who want subservient or submissive wives,” Guess does not consider, or at least appears to have completely ignored, the way that those words were used in that piece: Perhaps we need to first discuss what is meant by the terms “subservient” and “submissive.” Dictionary.com gives the first two definitions of “subservient” as follows: 1. Serving or acting in a subordinate capacity; subordinate. 2. Servile; excessively submissive; obsequies. The second definition has clearly negative connotations with the use of the adjective “excessively.” [...]

  • rosalba

    being subservient is a big commitment because the person in the subservient position have to make herself small and have as less options as posible.
    she cannot choose freely, or make personal decisions without the consent of the dominant person, who in many, many cases as well documented we find may abused his power over the subservient person…be it physical, emotional, intellectually and spiritually.
    Thank you but not thanks…in other words I think is a big bullshit to aloud a guy to make all the personal decisions a woman should make.
    who ever think the opposite…you are nothing more than a caveman.

  • A.

    If a woman is taking care of children while he’s working at his job, she’s already serving hi m and likely exhausted when he comes home, especially in modern day parenting which is very active. So it’s not really equal if he comes home and expects service. Furthermore, there is a false idea that the submissive woman takes care of the man… directly, physically, through massage and the like but he does not take care of her in the same way. No matter how hard he works at his job, unless he can pay for lots of treatments at a spa, this doesn’t work. A woman needs to be taken care of too, directly and physically, just as much as a man. She can still be subservient and submissive but in a healthy relationship regardless he minds her needs.






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