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For Mother’s Day, let’s get rid of the phrase welfare mother and replace it with stay-at-home-mom

2007-05-13
By

A mother who is at home all the time with infants and toddlers is often very busy. Feedings need to be given, diapers need to be changed, and babies need to be bathed, cuddled, and cooed to. However, as a society we have a schizophrenic attitude toward mothers who are out of the labor market and taking care of their young. Many people believe as Mary Eberstadt, author of “Home-Alone America” writes, that “children are happiest and safest when they are under the close supervision of mommy and daddy.” Nevertheless, we seem to want to deprive those children who are already most deprived – the impoverished – of that sort of care. We often criticize mothers (less frequently fathers) for not spending 24/7 with young children if those mothers are married to men who make enough money to support the family. But all-too-often we are even more critical of poor mothers who DO stay home if they depend on the government for support. Indeed, the difference between how much we respect moms at home has little relationship to their quality of mothering but is often based entirely on their source of support.

It seems to me that if there are ANY mothers who should have the option of staying home with infants and toddlers, it should be those of the lower classes. Recent studies found that a larger minority of children in daycare were described as “aggressive” than those cared for by mommies and that day care kids have higher rates of illness (I believe the studies also showed that the day care children had slightly higher academic scores than their at-home counterparts and that they had lower rates of illness once they got into school). Aggressiveness in a middle- or upper-class child might lead to CEOs and fire-in-the-belly politicians but tend to be predictive of thugs among the poor.

Workfare is a popular program but it seems to be based on the idea that stay-at-home motherhood is not “real work.” Thus, moms must leave very small children in daycare centers so the mothers can clean hotel rooms, wait tables, interrupt meals to read telemarketing scripts – and care for other people’s children in daycare centers. Unlike “career women,” those in the aforementioned jobs do not tend to have invested a lot of resources in training for their occupations, may not find their work particularly gratifying, and many would gladly give it up to take care of their young fulltime. What’s more, they may come home from their jobs exhausted and dispirited and transmit these negative feelings to their kids.

Even while I advocate making it possible for all mothers to have the option of staying home fulltime, I want to make it clear that no mother should be socially pressured to stay home regardless of class. [And no, PolishKnight, I don’t believe the way to make this possible is to rescind women’s right to vote or encourage or permit employment discrimination against us.]

For SOME mothers, even a humble job might be preferable to fulltime mothering. Work outside the home may allow adult contact that is psychologically beneficial. It also may be a plus in feeding a sense of competency. A study by Myra Marx Ferree in 1976 of 135 women about evenly divided between fulltime homemakers and those who worked outside of the home had interesting findings in this respect. Those who worked outside the homes were not in glamour jobs or high-powered professions but were store clerks, waitress, typists, and the like. Those with paid jobs were happier and more satisfied than those without. Ferree found that most of the housewives rated themselves as poor at homemaking – as did the wives who worked outside of the home. However, none of those at paid jobs felt they were poor at them and over half felt they were very good at them. Ferree concluded that the lack of a set criteria for a job well done tended to work against the self-esteem of the stay-at-home group. Finally, there are probably families in which mom and kids do best with a break from each other’s constant company. I once worked in a boiler room in which we did telemarketing for credit cards. I asked one woman how she liked her job and she replied, “Gets me away from the kids for a few hours.”

While we should not pressure moms to stay home fulltime, we need to recognize that a stay-at-home-mom deserves respect regardless of whether her source of support is a husband, a boyfriend, a lesbian lover (or wife if she lives in Massachusetts), a trust fund, an inheritance, savings – or the government. It will be objected that, “the government didn’t create the kids. Mom and Dad did.” Very true. But Mom and Dad are far from the only ones to live with the results of how children are raised. If parental care is usually or even often advantageous, then it is in our interest as a culture to make it possible for the children most “at-risk” of turning into troubled adults – the children of the poor – to have stay-at-home parents.

The term “welfare mother” should be retired from the language. We don’t call moms who are dependent on husbands “husband mothers.” Regardless of her source of support, the proper job description for a mother who is with her children all the time should be “stay-at-home-mom.”

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  • PolishKnight

    Many good writers here, I’ll add two cents (I hope):

    Difference between welfare mothers and “stay at home mom”: Stay at home moms are perceived to have had the children with a VOLUNTARY breadwinner to provide for her lifestyle. In other words, –>RESPONSIBLEIRRESPONSIBLE”There are very few if any “welfare mothers”, i.e. women who bear fatherless children for welfare money, any more.” isn’t true. I wish it were. While the welfare rolls have declined slightly to be replaced with lottery-winners on child-support, they are still millions of impovershed “SAH” mothers on them who decided to take a roll of the dice. But the good news is that politically, the era of the welfare mother is coming to a slow, but inevitable close.

    Denise realizes, by this proposition, that feminism has lost a linguistic battle to handwave away the distinction between responsible parents (eg, “SAH” mothers) and “single mothers”/”welfare mothers”) which is now synominous with “unwed mother”. She is rationalizing selfish feminine behavior by trying to get these women in the same boat as SAH mothers who have relationships with the men who pay the bills.

    Her next attempt to engage in a language of obfuscation is to play generalization reversals: “Of course there are both good mothers and bad mothers”. This is like someone defending Alaskan weather to beach goers by saying: “There are warm days in Alaska and cold days on Palm Beach”. Take an exception for one case and try to generalize on it and turn around and do the opposite direction for the other to create a topsy-turvy perception.

    We’ve seen it before. Several times. Of course, what WE think here doesn’t matter so much as even the general public is starting to get a clue.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/denise-noe/ Denise Noe

    amfortas said,

    Denise, you do your wishes no good at all by incorrectly labeling, then criticising that labelling. It is an exercise in setting up straw women just to knock a man down. Unfortunately you knock down good women too.

    Dittohd gets to the point quickly. “Deadbeat mums” are not the same as SAHMs. You confuse the two. Far from being mislabelled in with good women, good mothers, and given kudos, they need to be identified and whacked.

    Babies need mums but many babies have not done anything so bad as to deserve the mums they often get. The welfare mum is a liability to any baby. The SAHM embraces good as well as bad women and differentiation is expected from one who attempts to analyse.

    You spend some time on the issue of work outside the home. The adult company issue. – ” For SOME mothers…..Work outside the home may allow adult contact that is psychologically beneficial” . It is the old, tired, deliberately partial arguement that ‘adult’ company is desirable for the poor mum stuck at home with her little treasure, but every other person she meets outside is a thick as two short planks and if she really is the ‘welfare mum’ you talk of, that proportion rises dramatically. Frankly she will learn more from a baby than from her predominantly thick, immoral and likely criminal peers. You omitted that part, hiding behind ‘some’.

    You make a strong case for a good SAHM but then do her a disservice by lumping her in with social dross. The good mother deserves better.

    (Denise) Of course there are both good mothers and bad mothers. My friend who was raised by an unaffectionate schizophrenic mother had a very bad mother (who was supported by her husband).
    I know of a couple of women who depended on the government for a period to be stay-at-home-moms. In one case, the women had depended on her husband’s income for many years. I’m not sure exactly what the problem was but he lost his job and they turned to the government. In another case, a cousin of mine, who had been supported by her husband, drew welfare for awhile after the marriage ended so taht she could stay home with her two very young children. I believe my cousin was a conscientious mother. I don’t know very much about the other lady. However, what I do know is that the quality of their mothering was unlikely to change radically because the sort of support did.

  • thurston861

    DW2G – What does Private corporate or Family wealth have to do wtih money printed for the Congress which devalues the money in the pockets of everyone?

    Are people not entitled to leave and receive inheritances?

    Are people not entitled to contract for their skills?

    What are you a Socialist?

    If you are there is no hope for you on these issues, for the government will never solve your problems. It is never the solution.

    There is nothing in it for them to solve problems.

  • DadWith2Girls

    DRU — “This is the biggest problem with the welfare mother, passing on the entitlement mentality.”

    I totally agree.

    And David, would you apply the same ethical outrage to corporate welfare cheats — you know, the CEO’s who steal 5000% of the average working person’s annual salary every year; not to mention the millions in “golden parachutes” severance packages they get after they destroy the company?

    And, I’m sure you would include among the criminally entitled all those among the 2% of America’s old monied scions who own and pass on to their heirs 97% of the country’s wealth?

    Or, is your righteous, faux-moral vitriol focused only on the poor?

  • thurston861

    Can anyone name one issue?

    One issue pressed by the Women’s Movement that has been honestly presented, properly legislated, and correctly executed not causing collateral injustice and societal disturbance.

    If not then the Feminists have no record of doing anything good.

    That is power to US, and justification for the repeal of the 19th Amendment.

  • thurston861

    DRU checked in but did not address the Challenge I issued.

    Sad.

    It is breifly this, One issue pressed by the Women’s Movement that has been honestly presented, properly legislated, and correctly executed not causing collateral injustice and societal disturbance.

    Cause: The 18th Amendment pressed by Women’s Temperence beingtheir first and a complete disaster, just as DV, Rape, Date Rape, Child Support, No-Fault Divorce, PFA Courts. Alimony……..

  • Eukonidor64

    Denise,

    As has been pointed out above, but you seem determined to avoid hearing (which I think is unusual for you, not sure what’s going on in there, today), is the fact that your description of the Welfare Mother (SAHM) is just not reflected in the majority of the women whom this label is applied to. If you grew up in a middle-class neighborhood, as you described, then the ones you were exposed to were the outliers of the group, rather than the mainstream. Every label is going to misrepresent some of the people who are lumped under it, but unless that is a VERY large proportion, it doesn’t negate the appropriateness of the label as a description.

    I understand where you’re coming from in not seeing these people. I didn’t when I was growing up. It took working downtown in the middle of them to see how bad their parenting skills were, and how little they actually valued their children. Some feel that they are owed a living because they are denied the opportunity to get ahead on their own, even though they have never really tried. Others are proud of gaming the system to get ahead (and don’t doubt that many of them are better off than many middle class families). AND THESE ATTITUDES ARE PASSED ON TO THE CHILDREN. This is the biggest problem with the welfare mother, passing on the entitlement mentality. Other children often lose the crap shoot and wind up with reprehensible parents, but only the welfare mothers regularly raise families believing that they are entitled to their livelihood from someone else.

    So what happens in the next generation? The girls become welfare moms, too. Sometimes the boys grow up and scam the system to get disability benefits. And so the cycle begins again.

  • David R. Usher

    Denise,

    You might be interested in reading the comments about my article at opednews.com, a liberal site. The published my article ‘Duke Rape Case: The Feminist Klan Exposed”, which is also on the ifeminists front page. The comments reveal somthing unusual — feminists said a number of rather crude things and made emotional counterstatements. but not one came back with a factual counter-argument. They pretty much were put in their place. This is still a top-read article nearly a week after publication.

    Duke Rape Case: The Feminist Klan Exposed
    http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_david_r__070507_duke_rape_case_3a_the_.htm

    Also see:
    Publishing Without Comfort; Thoughts on Editorial Policy
    http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_rob_kall_070507_publishing_without_c.htm

    Lies, Damn Lies, and False Rape Statistics
    http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_john_r_m_070508_lies_2c_damn_lies_2c_and.htm

  • David R. Usher

    Denise,

    A few articles I wrote very critical of Republicans:
    http://www.therealitycheck.org/GuestColumnist/dusher111506.htm
    http://www.therealitycheck.org/GuestColumnist/dusher112305.htm
    http://www.therealitycheck.org/GuestColumnist/dusher012406.htm

    I am very much an independent thinker. I don’t let parties lead me around town by the nose.

  • David R. Usher

    Denise,

    I am very upset with Republicans, as is most of the movement. I have written a number of highly critical articles. As of this writing, 2008 looks more like reality TV than an election, no matter what party we look at.

    I do stick to my guns about the welfare system. Certainly there are some guys who ran out on the family. But, the way the system works, this minority is the excuse for allowing very large numbers of women to accidentally forget to take their pill and have a child out of wedock. The current illegitimacy explosion is being driven by women in their thirties, who know exactly what they are doing.

    If you expect people to be responsible for their actions and decisions, then you have to join me on this regardless of position on other issue. If you don’t expect personal responsibility by both men and women, then there isn’t anything to be done here.

  • thurston861

    Hey Am, Bitch agrees with DH, they are “Deadbeat Moms”.

  • amfortas

    Denise, you do your wishes no good at all by incorrectly labeling, then criticising that labelling. It is an exercise in setting up straw women just to knock a man down. Unfortunately you knock down good women too.

    Dittohd gets to the point quickly. “Deadbeat mums” are not the same as SAHMs. You confuse the two. Far from being mislabelled in with good women, good mothers, and given kudos, they need to be identified and whacked.

    Babies need mums but many babies have not done anything so bad as to deserve the mums they often get. The welfare mum is a liability to any baby. The SAHM embraces good as well as bad women and differentiation is expected from one who attempts to analyse.

    You spend some time on the issue of work outside the home. The adult company issue. – ” For SOME mothers…..Work outside the home may allow adult contact that is psychologically beneficial” . It is the old, tired, deliberately partial arguement that ‘adult’ company is desirable for the poor mum stuck at home with her little treasure, but every other person she meets outside is a thick as two short planks and if she really is the ‘welfare mum’ you talk of, that proportion rises dramatically. Frankly she will learn more from a baby than from her predominantly thick, immoral and likely criminal peers. You omitted that part, hiding behind ‘some’.

    You make a strong case for a good SAHM but then do her a disservice by lumping her in with social dross. The good mother deserves better.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/the-gonzman/ The Gonzman

    Men have no such options.

    Neither should women.

    That’s what equality means.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/denise-noe/ Denise Noe

    David R. Usher said,

    No sale, Denise.

    1. Studies do not indicate that illegitimate children do better when single mothers stay home. Studies indicate that children do best when raised in the intact family consisting of a mother and a father. I’ll forget to recite the huge list of other problems children raised absent their fathers have.

    (Denise) I don’t necessarily think mothers, even of infants, should stay home fulltime, only that the option should be available.
    We are in agreement that children do best in intact families. However, a family supported by the government could be an intact family! The husband-father may not make enough money to support the family or even help support the family. Many men can’t even support themselves as can be seen by the men who are homeless. A stay-at-home-mom supported by a husband shouldn’t change her job description if her source of support should change either because of the husband’s job loss or marriage break-up or whatever. Children born to single moms might in fact have stay-at-home-moms supported by live-in boyfriends (also often the father) — or they might have stay-at-home-moms supported by the government. Again, the job itself of caring for the baby is the same. Feedings need to be given, diapers need to be changed, etc. regardless of the family arrangement — and we agree that a happily married couple is better than a mother on her own.
    I don’t know of studies showing that children of single mothers inevitably fare better when in day care or with babysitters or in other child care arrangements.

    David R. Usher: 2. We cannot equate welfare mothers with women who are responsible about procreation and marriage. Responsible women should be able to continue choosing whether to work or stay home. Welfare mothers should not be permitted to be deadweight on the taxpayer.

    (Denise) I too wish men and women would marry before starting families. I also wish people would act responsibly and either abstain from vaginal intercourse or conscientiously use contraception until and unless they decide to start families. However, it is quite possible for women who are responsible to lose private support when a marriage fails, the husband loses his job, etc. Stay-at-home-moms are not necessarily “deadweight” on anyone. They are raising the next generation of our citizens and we all have to live with the results of how well American children are raised. However, there are some people who do see stay-at-home-moms as “deadweight.” I recall reading a letter to Dear Abby by a mother who had just had a baby. She wrote, “I desperately want to stay home with our daughter.” However, her husband wanted her to leave the baby in child care and called his wife “selfish” and “lazy” for wanting to stay with the infant.

    David R. Usher: 3. What choices do you advocate for men? I did not see anything about better custody arrangements for children of illegitimacy, such as shared parenting, or perhaps a change in custody policy for reproductive entrapment (which is what illegitimacy usually is).

    (Denise) This essay was about mothers. I believe in shared parenting and shared custody. I’ve also written on the enforcement of child support laws as “Debtors’ prison for Dads.”

    David R. Usher: 4. Only one or two nuts advocate rescinding the 19th amendment. I am a bit surprised you bring this up — as if false alarmism might buttress your argument.

    (Denise) I was talking to PolishKnight, someone who often appreciates my essays but with whom I have strong disagreements. He believes the problems associated with out-of-wedlock births would be solved or at least alleviated if we returned to a sort of 19th Century gender ethos in which only men had the right to vote and in which workplace discrimination against women was encouraged or at least permitted.
    Have a nice day, David!

  • DadWith2Girls

    The critical fallacy all men have applied to Denice’s fem-logic is just this —

    If you buy into feminist ideology — even 10% — then you have to logically conclude that WOMEN HAVE NO FREE CHOICE.

    This is because they (perpetual girls) live under the oppressive Evil Patriarchy, which INVALIDATES all of their choices.

    This is not mere theory.

    Actual women (and faux-men) truly believe this.

    Imagine ….

    It is possible to believe you are a fully liberated woman, and still completely unresponsible for any of your own choices…

    Because — (and especially if your choices were bad) — the Evil Patriarchy MADE YOU DO IT!

    And women wonder why men don’t wish to marry sexy-slut arrested development semi-adults with a three-year-old psychological mindset?

    The very best American woman is a petulant teen-ager with a bad attitude.

    She has advanced beyond the angry stage into the revenge dedication…

  • RScott

    Denise,

    You ignore an important fact: 100% of these women chose to be mothers – a choice Colorado legislated 40 years ago. None of the men made such a choice – though some may have been accepting of the parental responsibility through marrying the mother before producing the children. In an intact traditional (currently rare) marriage between a man and woman, the decision to have one parent remain home to care for children was a mutual one of both parents. This arrangement was targeted for destruction by feminists and their sympathizers – and that destruction has largely been successful. Those of us already having experienced unilateral divorce recognize that marriage to a woman who is any less committed to her career than the man is impossible – and illegal – in a growing number of jurisdictions. Colorado law is very clear – NO stay at home parents – the financial damage this will create if one parent chooses unilateral divorce is completely unacceptable. In Colorado, both parties to a contemplated marriage must earn at least $75 annually just to comply with CURRENT law – which of course does not take into consideration any future retroactive changes in the law the feminists might be contemplating. The only hope for the traditional arrangement is to refuse state involvement in your adult relationship PERIOD.

  • conservativation

    Here here Red! I was tryin to say that.

  • red pill

    If I would write that there are not enough laws possible to fix every situation where everyones needs have to be take into consideration would you believe it? Can everyones life be bound by laws and intervention so that the best thing always works out well? Are there enough talented social workers and other gov’t interventionalists to make things go wonderfly? Is there enough donors of spare money, time and interest to pull people up for them back to the land of the living through these gifts? Just how could all this support and intervention be organized?
    Truth be it can’t. There are no dozens of full time devoted attendants and cash doners with so much surplus of time and energy to attend to the selfish, troubled or stupid. Point is there is one simple thing one can do. It is tough love, it is setting standards of acceptable and unnacceptable behavior and lack of suborning unnacceptable alternatives. It is the knowledge that if you screw up nobody will rescue you, it is the knowledge that you are your own rescuer, not societ or bored and undercapable gov’t agency, supparted by extortion of the regular peeps. It should be obvious what works and what doesnt work. If youo support dissipation, vice and irresponsibility you get more of it. It is this easy to do, hard to watch maybe but even the most stupid person can avoid a predictablly certain poor fate, leaving the remaining few even more stupid ones to whatever intervention the gov’t can afford. If one chooses to astrainge themselves from voluntary safetynets and other controls maybe the damage is done, and the story ends there…

  • DadWith2Girls

    DRU -

    ” ‘Scuse me, I have to go reset my BS alarm.”

    Well, because I am just starting to trust your integrity (we are so far apart on the political spectrum that there is no metric available to reasonably graph it) …

    I respectfully suggest that you buy a SECOND BS alarm-clock —

    the one for the Republican candidates you are currently supporting!

    Keep writing man.

    You’re full of subtle surpises… like occasionally killing logic!

  • conservativation

    Imagine what $200.00 in manopoly money is worth now with inflation. What year did that game hit the shelves?

  • Dittohd

    I agree with Denise that we should get rid of the term “welfare mother” but not with her replacement. Calling an apple an orange will not make the apple into an orange.

    I think we should change the term to “deadbeat mother”, then try, convict, and jail these women who have children they cannot provide their children with their minimum 50% pro rata support, not counting her individual housing and other expenses. Monetary assistance from other family members does not count. This would be just like we do with men who don’t pay the family court determined child support. What these women do should be against the law.

    Absent this change, we should stop jailing men who don’t or can’t meet family court child support judgements. Every attack on a man is a potentially fatal, direct attack of his family including his wife, girlfriend, ex, children, and parents.

    Happy Mother’s Day to all real mothers. Deadbeat mothers should go directly to jail, should not pass go, and should not collect $200.

  • thurston861

    Thank You Cons

    Thurston and Men -1
    Women and Everyone Else – 0

    I have learned much from DRU, Cons, Amfortas, the Gonzeman and others to levy this challenge.

    It will be hard for DRU a great hero of us all to pick up the challenge, even though it will no doubtedly confer upon him Authority and Power of his words and intellect that he presently weilds with precision and Justice.

    Cons calls it silly in the present environment to imagine the 19th Amendment being repealed.

    Yet, it is not really, when we show women the failure of every Feminist Law creating Justice, and making one more thing for a Woman to worry about as well as fine her for because her children do no obey (car seats, seat belts, Bicycle helmets, G-D knows how my family would have been able to afford for all 8 of us kids to have a childhood) has made her life more of a prison.

    There are fines against Women for every odd potentiality of the risk of living because she has children.

    When we are done disqualifying the Marxists who have beset such weight upon each of them, they will join us in the modification of their voting rights as set forth above.

    It is not silly Cons my friend.

    It is not just possible.

    It is necessary to respect them and empower them.

    To not place them under great threats of penalty for giving life and raising free children.

    It must be done.

    It will be done.

    I love Feminists – but I hate their diseased thought; intellectual psychopathy.

  • conservativation

    You are correct about the child support, but absolutely wrong about there being no more of the welfare mothers. We conservatives would like to thin k that through welfare and work reform, combined with the in sidious transfer of liability you mention, that its all child support now.
    Nah…..have another, get more foodstamps, get an extra bedroom in the apartment….it may not be a check for cash, but indeed the benfit is there and those who take it.
    I can make a list of names, a growing list.

  • DcFather

    There are very few if any “welfare mothers”, i.e. women who bear fatherless children for welfare money, any more. We didn’t like what they were doing to children and society so what we did was to double (or more) the money they receive, drop any and all accountability for the money to be actually spent on the children, convert their status in society from scourge to victim and hero, and shift the cost to support them and the fatherless children they bear for money from the taxpayer to the “deadbeat dad”.

    In other words, we made the payoff for bearing and raising fatherless children so large, and the inconveniences so minor, such that instead of being only a lower class phenomenon it now reaches into and makes fatherless children widespread across all social strata.

    So we no longer have “welfare mothers” and instead have what the PC media refers to as “single mothers”, although I think ‘child support whore” is much more appropriate.

  • conservativation

    Denise, 40 is a 40 ounce beer. Comfort zone didnt mean your economics, it meant what you have observed. Until you exist in an arena where these welfare moms are the norm and not the exception you’ll miss the pathology it breeds. I didnt mean to limit my ire to those who produce kids for more money….
    Your comment that custody should be taken away in those situations tells me you really dont know how bad it is out there in many places, entire communities where there are no “better” alternatives. there are not enough services to fix this Denise….only putting men in the homes and letting dads stay about can, in a generation or 2, begin to fix it, yes, even with the “bad” men that would be included.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/denise-noe/ Denise Noe

    conservativation said,

    Denise: I have some minor disagreements with your piece, but the bigg one is that I think “welfare mom” refers to women who are having kids expressly to GET more welfare, not one is a static state of a child at home and she tending to them.

    (Denise) When I’ve heard the term “welfare mom” used, it has referred to stay-at-home-moms who received welfare. I think it is used if the mother was never-married, divorced, or a widow. To the best of my understanding, it is not limited to those who deliberately had children in order to get welfare payments. I understand that there is a legitimate concern that generosity with social programs may bring large families back into style and that some could become moms just to receive a check.

    conservativation: There also is a set of descriptors that go with these women. The “welfare mom” is not one who is caring for her child, keeping a clean tidy place, maybe even reading to the kid(s), she is usually lookin for the next “40″ and kids are eating food from gas station convenience stores.

    (Denise) Forgive my ignorance. What does “40″ refer to? I’m well aware that standards differ among mothers. Some are much cleaner and tidier than others; some are much more conscientious than others. This is true regardless of whether the mother performs paid work or not and regardless of whether or not she is married. SAHMs dependent on husbands (trust funds, independently wealthy, etc.) may be sloppy or poorly organized. So might SAHMs dependent on the government. My point is that the source of support shouldn’t be the criteria for how we judge SAHMs nor should it be the criteria for what we call them.
    The issue of nutritious food is an important one. Mothers who stay home and mothers who work outside it can overfeed kids or feed them poorly. They may also cause problems by making too much of an issue over what the child eats. Yes, quality of mothering differs from mother to mother.

    conservativation: I’m surprised you don’t realize that it is a rare one indeed that meets the criteria you set forth for earning a anme change. In fact if I encountered a woman you describe, I’d have a different attitude.
    I didn’t get my info from TV, I grew up in this environment Denise, as did my neighbors and acquaintences, all around me were “welfare moms” and government pay scammers chasing disability etc.

    (Denise) I grew up in a working-class environment in which most (although by no means all) mothers were at home with their children. Quality of mothering differed a great deal from family to family. I have a friend who was raised by a SAHM whose quality of mothering was very poor. She was a schizophrenic and spent much of the day talking to herself. She was abusive to her child and never showed him any affection. She was married and supported by her husband.

    conservativation: Even there were those families breeding amongst brothers and sisters having all sorts of incest children as each on meant a couple hundred per month extra.

    (Denise) I believe I would favor taking custody away from a parents in this situation.

    conservativation: Then, as a 21 year old working there in a bar, I served these people their drinks and they fed their kids burgers and the babies fries EVERY DAY all month.

    (Denise) Again you bring up the issue of how parents feed their children and again we have an area of agreement. Overfeeding and the feeding of extremely fattening foods is a form of neglect. Again, this is true if the source of support is a husband, a boyfriend, a trust fund — or the government.

    conservativation: The owner gave them credit, I kept it on index cards. They ran out of cash about the 10th (welfare checks came the 3rd), then charged. On the next 3rd, they cleared the tab and started over. My place of employment was home to half a dozen families like that every day! Those are the welfare moms denise.
    I was under the impression you may have walked outside the comfort zone some, but it appears, forgive me if Im wrong, that you suffer some of the same romanticized views on this as most liberals.
    If you’d like a fast education in it, (and you may ask our resident Ozzy amfortas about this as well) read Theodore Dalrymple…you’ll get the story from the UK but other than the urban environment its the same crap here.

    (Denise) I have indeed “walked outside the comfort zone some.” My family was working class struggling when I was growing up and plunged into poverty when I was in my late teens.
    I’m quite aware that some poor people can be irresponsible. Some stay-at-home-moms can be irresponsible but this true of those depending on husbands or other private sources as well as those dependent on the government.

  • conservativation

    Here I go again, a learnin stuff round here. I’ve had my flirtations with the 19th amendment stuff, basically there isnt a yeast’s chance in a gynalotrimen bath of it ever being repealed.

    But thurston set me thinking. It dovetails well with many things we know as men and profess in our MRM community. Those being that the nature of things (much like EG says) is that men set the environment in which women nurture and see the race perpetuated. Men protect and provide, and many or all things men (should) naturally to are to womens benefit.

    Consider, if one could rest in the knowledge that they neednt be agonizing over every little car seat law or whatever, and could focus on one’s own brood and keeping them safe and happy, what could be wrong with that?

    As thurston says, here they come, legislating everything form labels to helmets, mucking about in everones lives. I agree too, name a law or policy that has carried womens STRONG advocacy, to the point of womens support being essential to pass it, that really is constitutional and not emotional at its root. Conversely name a constructionist matter that receives enthusiastic audience, let alone support from women.

    Its a silly notion with the current system, but ineresting to ponder.

  • thurston861

    Try again, far too many typos for an important point.

    Great work DRU.

    Thank you.

    Yet I am A Nut.

    We will eventually realize that we do have to Repeal the 19th Amendment since Women cannot reign in the Intellectual Psychopaths that have seized control of this Nation in the alleged best interest and name of Women.

    Women’s Temperance Movement predated and pressed for the Banning of Alcohol in this nation. Certainly in the name of curbing debauchery towards women, there were probably stories of children being beaten by drunken men. (Would not be surprised that their tactic followed the women’s KKK)

    It won then failed.

    It brought nothing but more problems, more Federalization.

    The failure of the 18th AMendment should have shown the19th as the political Ruse it was to deliver the nation into the hands of a Reactionary Majority, for most women are reactionaries, and will protect other women without facts just as their natural propensity towards compassion.

    The 19th Amendment should have been repealed along with the 18th, for Prohibition was a scourge upon this nation and Women pressed men into it using Sexual Warfare. It was the sign of things to come.

    Looking at their track record, the issues they have pressed, not one problem they have focused on has been found to be legitimate requiring national legislation.

    All women as a group have done is acted a a bunch of reactionaries destroying the nation and their credibility.

    I cannot wait for you to show me one women’s issue that has been:

    A.) honestly presented with verifiable facts
    B.) equally and properly legislated against within the limitations of Congressional Authority in the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights
    and
    C.) effectively addressed in the execution of the legislation to be solved and not caused a larger problem or injustice in another area.

    So far the issues of:

    equal pay
    DV
    Date Rape
    Rape
    Child Support
    Divorce
    equality in Health research issues
    equal education

    have been disqualified by Yourself and others here.

    So I challenge all here, prove something that Women as a Group have brought to Political Fruition that is Just, honest, equal, and Fair.

    Otherwise, Women are going to have to press for the repealing of the 19th Amendment to the effect that the oldest Male of the Family will deliver their Vote, like it once was, and the Family will have a collective moral and political power, that includes her interests, in direct proportion to their Family’s reproductive proclivity, and gives her strength politically against the masses of reactionaries the 19th Amendment flooded our political system with and has made Men Second Class Citizens.

    I am willing to bet that the Women’s Score Card is much worse than Men’s.

    I enjoy being proved wrong.

  • thurston861

    Great work DRU.

    Thank you.

    Yet I am A Nut.

    We will eventually realize that we do have to Repeal the 19th Amendment since Women cannot reign in the Intellectual Psychopaths that have seized control of this Nation in the alleged best interest of Women.

    Women’s temprence predated and pressed for the Banning of Alcohol in this nation. Certainly in the name of curbing debauchery towaords women, there were probably stories of children being beaten by drunken men.

    It won then failed. It brought nothing but more problems, more Federalization.

    Looking at their track record, the issues they have pressed, not one problem they have focused on has been found to be legitimate requiring national legislation.

    All women as a group have done is destroy the nation and their credibility.

    I cannot wait for you to show me one women’s issue that has been:

    A.) honestly presented with verifiable facts
    B.) equally and properly legislated against within the limitations of Congressional Authoruity in the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights
    and
    C.) effectively addressed in the execution of the legislation to be solved and not caused a larger problem or injustice in another area.

    So far the issues of:

    equal pay
    DV
    Date Rape
    Rape
    Child Support
    Divorce
    equality is Health research issues
    equal education

    have ben disqualified by Yourself and others here.

    So I challenge all here, prove something that Women as a Group have brought to Political Fruition that is Just, honest, equal, and Fair.

    Otherwise, Women are going to have to press for the repealing of the 19th Amendment to the effect that the oldest Male of the Family will deliver their Vote, like it once was, and the Family will have a collective moral and political power, that includes her interests, in direct porportion to thei Family’s reproductive proclivity, and gives her strength politically against the masses of reationaries the 19th AMendment flooded our political system with and has made Men Second Class Citizens.

    I am willing to bet that the Women’s Score Card is much worse than Men’s.

    I enjoy being proved wrong.

  • conservativation

    It’s not too hard to see how people tend to “boutique-ize” trodden and create little catagories and pictures of them, these notions being the source of the plans they make to solve these problems. “Oh look at the cute little downtrodden mom in her second hand cloths, recycling hand-me-downs to the kids, knitting and using home made toys. Why if she was just not pressured to stop relying on the gov’t, she’d be raising stellar citizens.

    It is likely less then 1 in a thousand meeting that description. It is mainly bad choice after bad choice after bad choice etc. BUT, we have a way of looking elsewhere as women clean up after their bad choices, all the while telling men, too bad bub, bad choice pay up. (although I’d have to say that in the liberal femininst world, all sexes are entitled to bad choices and the rest of us must pay)

    Denise I’d recommend you join a ministry that works with poor women. In the meantime, I’d like to do the opposite of what you suggest. i’d like to find a word to replace “single mom”. Clearly we cannot quickly educate people into not feeling sorry for them and sending money everytime an appeal goes out on the radio (here in Houston the loacl Christian radio station has a program where they highlight those in need and listeners send money, these requests 70% of the time start with ‘jane is a single mom of 4 boys….blah blah…if the rest of the story were told, it would be she unilaterally divorced the THREE dads that fatherd the four!!!! and those “deadbeats” just wont pony up…even though they were crack dealers when she screwed em and they are in friggin PRISON now)
    The charity would dry up in a NY second if the baggage was included, but no, weepy weepy we say single mom. My mom was one, my whole life essentially, and I have no defense of her bad choices (no drug dealers though), and frankly I am so sick and tired of this whole single mom drama my kneejerk reaction, no matter who I am around at work or at recreation, when someone says single mom trying to get sympathy, I casually ask, “Hmmm I wonder why she is single?” Most people then say husbands must have been asses, and I say no, she likley dumped em cause she didn’t feel loved….now look what she has done to her kids, they cannot even pay rent.

  • David R. Usher

    No sale, Denise.

    1. Studies do not indicate that illegitimate children do better when single mothers stay home. Studies indicate that children do best when raised in the intact family consisting of a mother and a father. I’ll forget to recite the huge list of other problems children raised absent their fathers have.

    2. We cannot equate welfare mothers with women who are responsible about procreation and marriage. Responsible women should be able to continue choosing whether to work or stay home. Welfare mothers should not be permitted to be deadweight on the taxpayer.

    3. What choices do you advocate for men? I did not see anything about better custody arrangements for children of illegitimacy, such as shared parenting, or perhaps a change in custody policy for reproductive entrapment (which is what illegitimacy usually is).

    4. Only one or two nuts advocate rescinding the 19th amendment. I am a bit surprised you bring this up — as if false alarmism might buttress your argument.

    5. Segolene Royale lost the presidential election in France. Voters do not trust Hillary — who holds the same values — and she is not a never-married mother of four children. Total matriarchy and verbal shapeshifting does not fly here either.

    ‘Scuse me, I have to go reset my BS alarm.

  • donnieboy57

    conservativation: you posted as i was writing and said it so much better than me. thanks

  • donnieboy57

    the problem is that ” stay at home mom” generally refers to married women. i believe we can all agree on that. “welfare mom” refers to unmarried women or women who live with men but still use tax dollars for largess. to link unmarried mothers, especially those who have never married and produce illigitiment kids, with married mothers who live a moral and healthy life that any idiot knows produces far greater “normal” adults than single mother households will ever hope to, is an insult to any thinking adult, male or female. denise, with all due respect, your not pulling with both oars, as usual. do you ever, even occasionally, bounce your ideas off others before you post? i know you want to be provocative, so maybe its just me not correctly identifying your “nuanced delivery” style. happy mothers day.

  • conservativation

    Denise: I have some minor disagreements with your piece, but the bigg one is that I think “welfare mom” refers to women who are having kids expressly to GET more welfare, not one is a static state of a child at home and she tending to them. There also is a set of descriptors that go with these women. The “welfare mom” is not one who is caring for her child, keeping a clean tidy place, maybe even reading to the kid(s), she is usually lookin for the next “40″ and kids are eating food from gas station convenience stores.
    I’m surprised you don’t realize that it is a rare one indeed that meets the criteria you set forth for earning a anme change. In fact if I encountered a woman you describe, I’d have a different attitude.
    I didn’t get my info from TV, I grew up in this environment Denise, as did my neighbors and acquaintences, all around me were “welfare moms” and government pay scammers chasing disability etc. Even there were those families breeding amongst brothers and sisters having all sorts of incest children as each on meant a couple hundred per month extra. Then, as a 21 year old working there in a bar, I served these people their drinks and they fed their kids burgers and the babies fries EVERY DAY all month. The owner gave them credit, I kept it on index cards. They ran out of cash about the 10th (welfare checks came the 3rd), then charged. On the next 3rd, they cleared the tab and started over. My place of employment was home to half a dozen families like that every day! Those are the welfare moms denise.
    I was under the impression you may have walked outside the comfort zone some, but it appears, forgive me if Im wrong, that you suffer some of the same romanticized views on this as most liberals.
    If you’d like a fast education in it, (and you may ask our resident Ozzy amfortas about this as well) read Theodore Dalrymple…you’ll get the story from the UK but other than the urban environment its the same crap here.







Right.

Man up.

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