Does Phyllis Schlafly harbor contempt for men?

2007-05-18
By

In “The Power of the Positive Woman,” Phyllis Schlafly builds a logical and cogent case against the Equal Rights Amendment, arguing that it has the potential to derail women’s sports, weaken the military by prohibiting sex distinctions, and gut legal protections for women who are fulltime homemakers.

She also discusses the relations between the sexes in other contexts. I believe that in some of this book she displays a strong contempt for men.

After writing about the large differences in upper body strength between the genders, she asks, “Does the male advantage in physical strength doom women to lives of subservience?” Then she answers her own question in the negative, asserting that women possess “a different type of strength, one that is at least as great as that of men and, in the hands of a skillful woman, far greater.”

That strength is, paradoxically, the weaker level of women’s sexuality. She writes that women will never have “an equal desire, an equal enjoyment, and an equal freedom from the consequences” of sexual activity and that people who might think that it is only “society’s repression” that keeps women from these things are deluded because “it just isn’t so.”

However, Schlafly believes this is to women’s advantage. “The other side of this coin is that women have far greater control over their sexual appetites,” she asserts. “A Positive Woman cannot defeat a man in a wrestling or boxing match but she can motivate him, inspire him, encourage him, teach him, restrain him, reward him, and have power over him than he can ever achieve over her with all his muscle.”

The relationship that Schlafly describes as that between a Positive Woman and her man is similar, if not identical, to that of a dog trainer and a canine. The “skilful” crossing and opening of the legs is similar to throwing a biscuit to a well-behaving pooch as well as tightening the leash on its collar if it starts to wander in the wrong direction or too far off. Basically she is in effect saying “men are dogs” that women should control.

Phyllis Schlafly is an extremely intelligent person. She could not have been as politically effective as she has been if she did not make valid points. So what about her statement about women inevitably lacking “an equal desire, an equal enjoyment, and an equal freedom from the consequences?”

For much of human history, the consequence of sex for women was all-too-frequently death. Countless women died giving birth. Advances in medicine – made by men – turned death in childbirth from a common hazard to the rarity it now is in modern Western countries.

Men have also made advances that have lightened women’s special consequences through the development of fairly reliable contraceptives and methods of sterilization. However, it certainly remains true that only women bear (literally) the physical consequences of getting pregnant and giving birth.

Although they are often confused, sexual desire and sexual enjoyment are not the same thing. Men do appear to desire (at least partnered as opposed to auto) sex more than women. However, scientific studies such as those by the famed duo of Masters and Johnson indicate that women have a greater potential for enjoyment both as to intensity of orgasms and their frequency.

It is doubtful that Schlafly has ever experienced any of that potential. Her writing on sex is that of a woman for whom having sex is a way to become a mother and a means to “motivate, etc.” a husband. This view of sex was probably not uncommon among women of her generation.

But it is one that profoundly dehumanizes men.

71 views

  • amfortas

    You take and run with a jaundiced view, Denise; a view that has become prevalent. But you ascribe it to Schlafly without the necessary proofs. You quote her in part and ascribe paraphrases in part, which together make an ambiguity.

    The interplay of complementary strengths does not necessarily imply a contempt of or by either men or women. – “A Positive Woman cannot defeat a man in a wrestling or boxing match but she can motivate him, inspire him, encourage him, teach him, restrain him, reward him, and have power over him than he can ever achieve over her with all his muscle.”
    It can do of course, but you do not show it in Schlafly’s words. It could easily have been seen as a reasonable observation. She didn’t mention it in terms of a Negative Woman. Had she, she could easily have chosen 5 negatives out of the six verbs instead of 5 positives.

    It takes the arguement far to far to imply that she is describing – “similar, if not identical, to that of a dog trainer and a canine”. Are those her words or yours? I have heard women talk in those terms and even seen TV programmes of such. But I haven’t seen or heard her use them.

    Even your last comment about dehumanising men may well be the case with harsher critics of both women and men but it does not automatically follow from the preponderance of positives in the recognition of what that interplay might lead to.

    You could well be right in a general observation of contemptuous attitude that many, many women show today, as you infer, but Schlafly hasn’t been shown to imply.

    Of course, I cannot read the tone of voice in the printed words you give us.

  • Joi

    Denise Noe wrote:
    “The relationship that Schlafly describes as that between a Positive Woman and her man is similar, if not identical, to that of a dog trainer and a canine. The “skilful” crossing and opening of the legs is similar to throwing a biscuit to a well-behaving pooch as well as tightening the leash on its collar if it starts to wander in the wrong direction or too far off. Basically she is in effect saying “men are dogs” that women should control.”

    I agree, but I wonder if Phyllis actually sees it that way? I do believe that she thinks women are more cunning and deceptive than men. She knows that just by being a woman.

    “Advances in medicine – made by men – turned death in childbirth from a common hazard to the rarity it now is in modern Western countries.”

    Thank you for mentioning men in a positive light. It has become so rare now.

    “Her writing on sex is that of a woman for whom having sex is a way to become a mother and a means to “motivate, etc.” a husband. This view of sex was probably not uncommon among women of her generation.”

    I think in Phyllis’ generation women did manipulate men to a point. They wanted to “get married” and in that era women didn’t “give sex” out of marriage. Men wanted what they “couldn’t have.” Statements such as “why buy the cow, when you give away the milk for free?” Were common thinking.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/denise-noe/ Denise Noe

    amfortas said,

    You take and run with a jaundiced view, Denise; a view that has become prevalent. But you ascribe it to Schlafly without the necessary proofs. You quote her in part and ascribe paraphrases in part, which together make an ambiguity.

    (Denise) I quote directly from Schlafly’s book, “The Power of the Positive Women.” I think those quotes display a “jaundiced view” toward the male.

    amfortas: The interplay of complementary strengths does not necessarily imply a contempt of or by either men or women. – “A Positive Woman cannot defeat a man in a wrestling or boxing match but she can motivate him, inspire him, encourage him, teach him, restrain him, reward him, and have power over him than he can ever achieve over her with all his muscle.”

    It can do of course, but you do not show it in Schlafly’s words. It could easily have been seen as a reasonable observation. She didn’t mention it in terms of a Negative Woman. Had she, she could easily have chosen 5 negatives out of the six verbs instead of 5 positives.

    (Denise) She is talking about what women can do to men with sex.

    amfortas: It takes the arguement far to far to imply that she is describing – “similar, if not identical, to that of a dog trainer and a canine”. Are those her words or yours? I have heard women talk in those terms and even seen TV programmes of such. But I haven’t seen or heard her use them.

    (Denise) The words “motivate . . . restrain, reward” are hers. The observation about what a person does with a canine are mine. It seems to me that the relationship she describes between women and men resembles that of someone training a dog. To describe men as so similar to canines is degrading to men.

    amfortas: Even your last comment about dehumanising men may well be the case with harsher critics of both women and men but it does not automatically follow from the preponderance of positives in the recognition of what that interplay might lead to.

    You could well be right in a general observation of contemptuous attitude that many, many women show today, as you infer, but Schlafly hasn’t been shown to imply.

    (Denise) When someone describes the relationship of women to men as Schlafly has, I think that person has contempt for men.

    Of course, I cannot read the tone of voice in the printed words you give us.

    (Denise) The words I quote from Schlafly were from one of the many books she has written.

  • conservativation

    Ok we need Marc Rudov to get under Shlafly’s hood…know what I mean?!?

    He’ll sort er out.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/denise-noe/ Denise Noe

    amfortas said,

    You take and run with a jaundiced view, Denise; a view that has become prevalent. But you ascribe it to Schlafly without the necessary proofs. You quote her in part and ascribe paraphrases in part, which together make an ambiguity.

    The interplay of complementary strengths does not necessarily imply a contempt of or by either men or women. – “A Positive Woman cannot defeat a man in a wrestling or boxing match but she can motivate him, inspire him, encourage him, teach him, restrain him, reward him, and have power over him than he can ever achieve over her with all his muscle.”
    It can do of course, but you do not show it in Schlafly’s words. It could easily have been seen as a reasonable observation. She didn’t mention it in terms of a Negative Woman. Had she, she could easily have chosen 5 negatives out of the six verbs instead of 5 positives.

    It takes the arguement far to far to imply that she is describing – “similar, if not identical, to that of a dog trainer and a canine”. Are those her words or yours? I have heard women talk in those terms and even seen TV programmes of such. But I haven’t seen or heard her use them.

    Even your last comment about dehumanising men may well be the case with harsher critics of both women and men but it does not automatically follow from the preponderance of positives in the recognition of what that interplay might lead to.

    You could well be right in a general observation of contemptuous attitude that many, many women show today, as you infer, but Schlafly hasn’t been shown to imply.

    Of course, I cannot read the tone of voice in the printed words you give us.

    (Denise) I told my brother I was going to read to him a list of things one party would do with another party. I read the list beginning with “motivate” and moving on through “restrain” and “reward.” He replied, “A person and a dog.” I asked him to guess again. He paused and said, “A dog and a person?”

    May 18, 2007 at 7:01 am
    Joi said,

    Denise Noe wrote:
    “The relationship that Schlafly describes as that between a Positive Woman and her man is similar, if not identical, to that of a dog trainer and a canine. The “skilful” crossing and opening of the legs is similar to throwing a biscuit to a well-behaving pooch as well as tightening the leash on its collar if it starts to wander in the wrong direction or too far off. Basically she is in effect saying “men are dogs” that women should control.”

    I agree, but I wonder if Phyllis actually sees it that way? I do believe that she thinks women are more cunning and deceptive than men. She knows that just by being a woman.

    (Denise) She may not realize she is describing the relationship between women and men as similar to that between humans and dogs but that IS what she is describing.
    Unlike you, joi, I don’t believe “she thinks women are more cunning and deceptive than men.” I think the statement indicates that she believes women are more civilized or humanized while men are simpler and more primitive with a need to be “restrained.”

    “Advances in medicine – made by men – turned death in childbirth from a common hazard to the rarity it now is in modern Western countries.”

    Thank you for mentioning men in a positive light. It has become so rare now.

    (Denise) And thank YOU for the compliment. If you read some of my previous blogs, you’ll see I’ve often mentioned men in a positive light.

  • http://www.antipeonage.0catch.com Roger Knight

    At least Phyllis gets it about the evil of the child support crusade!

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/denise-noe/ Denise Noe

    Roger Knight said,

    At least Phyllis gets it about the evil of the child support crusade!

    (Denise) Phyllis “gets it” about a lot of things. My blog is about a specific area in which her view is not good.

  • PolishKnight

    Hello Denise,

    You’ve stumbled upon one of my favorite PC cows I like to grind: The notion that women today enjoy sex just as men even as society likes to believe that women can continue to ration and exploit men through his greater sexual desire.

    As you observe, desire and enjoyment are not the same thing they are related in that someone has to ACT upon desire to get enjoyment.

    So whose worse off here? The woman who cripples her own sexual desires and enjoyment in order to gain power or the man-dog who acts upon them freely?

    I disagree with Schlafly’s claim that women have “control” over their appetites. Control and self-denial are not necessarily the same thing. After all, if women were good at controlling their sexuality there wouldn’t be so many women shacking up with deadbeat dads or wife beaters. Women who go on starvation diets aren’t renowned for having a control over their appetites either. Marc Rudolv would go out of business if women could communicate what they wanted from men.

  • David R. Usher

    Denise,

    You need to read the book again, and stop inserting feminist oppositionalism into it. Take the pink sunglasses off and it will make more sense.

    Phyllis has more respect for men than any other leading political player i have ever personally worked with.

    what she refers to is how women can use their sexuality in positive ways, rather than using them in destructive ways as feminists do. Both men and women have sexual power. Both men and women can use them either destructively or positively.

    Feminists always see these things in terms of “domination” and “submission”. A relationship is always dysfunctional when “rules are more important than the relationship” — when “control issues” preside over cooperation.

    Phyllis is absolutely right in countering feminists to show women how to use their sexual powers both positively and cooperatively. I sure don’t know any feminists who do.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/denise-noe/ Denise Noe

    David R. Usher said,

    Denise,

    You need to read the book again, and stop inserting feminist oppositionalism into it. Take the pink sunglasses off and it will make more sense.

    (Denise) Mr. Usher, I don’t look at Schlafly’s writings — or anything else — through the lenses of “feminist oppositionalism.” I take may own particular, and hopefully fresh, look at things. Much of her book DID make sense to me. I call ‘em as a I see ‘em, giving credit where I thing it is due and criticism where I believe it is warranted. Her description of what she considers women “power” over men is an area in which I think it is warranted.

    Phyllis has more respect for men than any other leading political player i have ever personally worked with.

    what she refers to is how women can use their sexuality in positive ways, rather than using them in destructive ways as feminists do. Both men and women have sexual power. Both men and women can use them either destructively or positively.

    Feminists always see these things in terms of “domination” and “submission”. A relationship is always dysfunctional when “rules are more important than the relationship” — when “control issues” preside over cooperation.

    Phyllis is absolutely right in countering feminists to show women how to use their sexual powers both positively and cooperatively. I sure don’t know any feminists who do.

    (Denise) My essay isn’t about feminists and they aren’t really relevant to it. It’s about Schlafly’s view. I’ve dealt with the vulnerabilities of feminist beliefs in other essays.
    Schlafly’s views on sex are, in at least one area, factually incorrect. She says that women cannot have “an equal enjoyment” with men in the sexual area. Although she has probably not experienced this, the truth is that women can have much greater sexual enjoyment than men. Read my essay “One reason there can never be sexual equality in sex” and I talk at more length about this.
    As I’ve already pointed out, when I asked my brother to guess the parties being described from the “motivate . . . restrain, reward” list, he guessed “A person and a dog.” My ex-husband thought she made the wife out to be similar to a dog trainer.
    Schlafly’s views in this area are similar to those of Dr. Laura Schlessinger in seeing men as essentially more “simple” (primitive) creatures.
    It is not respectful of half the human race to view them in a manner so similar to the way dogs are viewed — and Schlafly does describe men that way.
    In other parts of the same book — which IS a valuable book in several important ways — she states that “pornography is best defined as the degradation of women, both individually and as a group” and criticizes it for making women “the playthings of male lust and sadism.” This overlooks both gay male porn (some 10% of the total) and porn in which men are dominated by some very bossy ladies (no, Mr. Usher, I’m not any type of radical feminist and I use the word “ladies” freely).
    Let’s not look at Schlafly’s words in relation to “feminist oppositionalism.” Let’s look just at them without regard to feminism. They show a disgust and contempt for men.

  • jackal1994

    I don’t think Phyllis’s opinion is that bizarre in terms of sexual frequency and women/men.

    Basically as I look at women and men I think thusly:
    Women simply do not want sex as much as men. It’s a fact. This isn’t true of all women. Many women are hump-bunnies who a lot of men can’t keep up with–but this is uncommon.

    On the other hand women seem to be pretty darn materialistic compared to men. They just don’t have this sense of reigning themselves in for a budget.

    So, I think Phyllis is right. I think when a man wants sex women SHOULD tell the man: did you fix the gutter, did you mow the lawn?

    But, on the other hand, what’s not mentioned is that this works the other way on finance. Since the rise of female-lead households (whether speaking about 1 parent families or 2parent where the wife does the money is the same really) there have been more & more bankruptcies. Parents have a much harder time telling their children no (for really frivolous items).

    This ties in loosely with what I think of gay males. My wife sometimes watches queer eye or different fashion shows or sex and the city. What I find interesting is that the shows which lead-off with gay males don’t really show them in that flattering a light. These shows tend to show gay males as bitching catty clique-ish people that love being sarcastic, and mean. Moreover, these shows seem to be telling the audiences this is what gay males SHOULD ASPIRE to become!

    In short it seems (to me) that gay males combine the two worst aspects of women & men. They have the clique-ish, demeaning, catty behavior of women (without any of the supportive, maternal drives), and the totally unrestrained sexual libido’s of men,with none of the drive, ambition, or engineering/nation-building type drive normal in a lot of males.

    What’s worst is because two gay males would assumingly have equal libidos–their entire life (seemingly to me) TOTALLY REVOLVES around sex, .

    In short, I think it would be destructive if women were as horny as men. People would rarely make it out of the bedroom to do the important things they must do to survive and thrive.

  • jackal1994

    I read some of the posts (where as in my previous post I had only read the initial article).

    I would put forward the concept that men really are simpler creatures (kind of). When it comes to relationship we definitely are more simpler:

    1. We say what we want.
    2. We mean what we say.
    3. We tell women if something is a deal-breaker, of if it must be done (where as women say:”I feel uncomfortable yada,yada” Or “I’d feel better if you yada, yada, yada”
    4. When we ask a woman to do something and she says no, no big whoop. When men tell their woman no, all hell breaks lose. When a man says “Ok I’ll do it,” because of her tirade women say:”No, it’s pointless because you’re only doing it because I asked.”

    Women do NONE of these things. Women actually impede the relationship process. Why? Because they’re too damn complicated!

    In a lot of cases simpler is better. Simpler parts in cars are easier to repair/replace and work for a much longer time. Simpler mental machinations make relationships run easier.

    Now we come to the “kinda” remark about men being simpler. I think the area where men are more complicated is their fascination with “THINGS”

    I remember a very male friendly article written by a female author. She was talking about her husband’s love of model replica trains, and how he love’s the history of trains, and that women should basically give thanks to quirky men that love figuring things out, because they make society so much better.

    It all comes down to heritage. If evolution is true we have probably spent nearly a million years in a hunter/forager state. There is very obviously a “male” brain and “female” brain. Men like gadgets, things that go fast, and like figuring out how to make them go faster.
    Women, like relationships, and talking, and are very emotive and introspective. Women are always “tuned in” to how they are precisely feeling at that moment. And there’s nothing wrong with that.

    I think the original article is kind of ignoring gender differences, in the same way that feminists like to ignore gender differences. Not as badly, and not with the hypocrisy that usually acompanies feminist articles. But, to some extent I think the blinders are on regarding this article.

  • PolishKnight

    Jackal1994 wrote: “So, I think Phyllis is right. I think when a man wants sex women SHOULD tell the man: did you fix the gutter, did you mow the lawn?”

    The context of this statement implies that the couple is married. In that case, the couple is already sharing the man’s finances (what he brings to the marriage) so it’s unfair to say to him: “What’s yours is mine and what’s mine is mine” and insist he do more work to get what he should have coming to him anyway.

    I think what Schlafly means is that a healthy sex life for a man motivates him to do more work around the house just as a happy, contented wife is more motivated to cook and clean and provide sex. I don’t think she meant a tit for tat situation.

  • PolishKnight

    Schlafly’s views on sex are, in at least one area, factually incorrect. She says that women cannot have “an equal enjoyment” with men in the sexual area. Although she has probably not experienced this, the truth is that women can have much greater sexual enjoyment than men.

    You state this as a fact when it’s clearly quite arguable. I suppose it’s possible that women could enjoy sex as much as men, but common wisdom and simple observation implies otherwise.

    Denise wrote: Read my essay “One reason there can never be sexual equality in sex” and I talk at more length about this.
    As I’ve already pointed out, when I asked my brother to guess the parties being described from the “motivate . . . restrain, reward” list, he guessed “A person and a dog.” My ex-husband thought she made the wife out to be similar to a dog trainer.

    It sounds here like you’re quibbling over her phrasing based upon what your brother said about her terms out-of-context.

    In another context her terms are require reasonable: motivate, restrain, reward also could describe nearly all higher educational institutions. And yes, intellectuals have often made such a similar connection as your brother about those! :-)

    Schlafly’s views in this area are similar to those of Dr. Laura Schlessinger in seeing men as essentially more “simple” (primitive) creatures.

    This isn’t necessarily insulting as others here have pointed out.

    It is not respectful of half the human race to view them in a manner so similar to the way dogs are viewed — and Schlafly does describe men that way.
    In other parts of the same book — which IS a valuable book in several important ways — she states that “pornography is best defined as the degradation of women, both individually and as a group” and criticizes it for making women “the playthings of male lust and sadism.” This overlooks both gay male porn (some 10% of the total) and porn in which men are dominated by some very bossy ladies (no, Mr. Usher, I’m not any type of radical feminist and I use the word “ladies” freely).

    I agree. Most mainstream pornography portrays women enjoying sex and being desirable to men. Hardly degrading. What’s degrading to Schlafly and many women (including feminists) is the notion of women enjoying sex WITHOUT GETTING PAID. That aspect of it is what’s enjoyable to men: The lack of men having to jump through hoops to enjoy sex. It’s also why prostitution is largely illegal in our culture because of women, not men.

    Let’s not look at Schlafly’s words in relation to “feminist oppositionalism.” Let’s look just at them without regard to feminism. They show a disgust and contempt for men.

    Schlafly is maybe simply showing that she has the interests of women at heart just as she does of men and that she’s maintaining a balance rather than feminist equality constantly putting certain women’s interests first ahead of everyone else and then throwing a few carrots at men (SAH dads) and saying: “see? equal workplace opportunities helped these men too. All 0.001% of them!”

    Consequently, traditionalists will win the ideological battle because they consider more interests: men, women, society, children than feminism which is unrealistic and self-centered.

  • jackal1994

    I haven’t read this book so, I don’t know what vein Ms. Shlafly meant this. But, there is a definite difference in a woman who tries to dominate a man, and one who tries to inspire a man.

    I think women have lost the fine art of stroking a man’s ego. Most woman would rather dominate the man (much like the plaything that pornography is supposed to reduce women to). As a prime example I give you the wife on Everybody loves Raymond.

    God, if I was married to that screeching harpy I would shoot myself in the head.

  • red pill

    Posli knigit:
    Just what do you base your asserton that women are as sexual as men or at least enjoy and desire sex as much (or even more)? To what degree are women motivated by simple sexual physical pleasure over the long hoaul compared to men. Is it cause marc says he can make it happen? Is it because everyone should be equal? Of course not, because it is not. Sex is different for a man than for a woman. Man have sex without much risk of injury or serious consequence. Women do not have that likelyhhod without recent medical intervention, and that only temporarily. How many here can recall the inevitable decrease in interest in sex for sex sake after marriage when compared to before? I’ve not been hiding under a bushel, I’ve been out and have some talents but regardless of the whooping and sweaty exhaustion that can be had, its’ frequency decreases and its’ importance deminishes over time for the gals. It’s simply primarily social for gals, and primarily physical for guys. Men do much of what they do to impress the girls to get laid, women do most of what they do to be a mom. The priorities are obvious as they are different. Ther’s no evil in it it’s just the way it is, there’s no point in pretending otherwise, just the pursuit of self delusion…

  • amfortas

    It is interesting to hear what people say about the differences in sexual desire, feelings, the demands made before sex etc.

    Men are thought to hide their feelings, except for anger, rage, disappointment, work, sport, motor cars, liquor and women, about which they may sometimes become animated but mainly just with the occasional grunt.

    Women express their feelings all the time, often verbally and frequently through body language. Sometimes through airborne household/kitchen utensils, blunt objects and knives.

    Their expression is much more public. Also, however, it is often very subtle and low key such that men, in particular, do not even know when or that a women is actually expressing a feeling, or mistake it completely.

    Men rarely have problems with their feelings whilst women, who say they are much better at feelings, need all the help they can get. Women for example are much more likely to go to therapy when they have a ‘feelings’ problem. Men would rather die.

    Oddly, a significant body of psychiatric problems are, nonetheless, defined in terms of men. Obviously, the medical profession takes more note of men than women, despite the disparity of demand. 90% of a shrink, psych or ‘counsellor’s” clients are women discussing their feelings.

    Or maybe they just focus on the abberrations and attribute them all to men, as women throw a fit whenever they have to take responsibility for their feelings.

    The most widely known and ignored ‘feelings’ problem that women have is SO common it does not even rate a mention in the professional literature – WIS – or ‘Wardrobe Indecision Syndrome’.

    This afflicts so many women, causing huge distress, but fortunately they have a medium for expressing that distress. Men are rarely known to use it this way. – The Internet.

    There are more individual women on the internet in a state of undress, partial or total, showing pensive, confused, distressed expressions as well as obtuse and confusing expressions of delight, sultriness or nonchalance regarding their problem issue, than any other subject matter.

    In men, this condition is called “Flashing” and attracts prison terms.

    Women are vastly more capable than men, say women. The life experience needed to develop the average capacity of the average woman would, for a man, requires several life times. How does this comes about?

    I’ll tell you. Its ‘Previous lives’.

    Most women, particularly in the Western World have lived before and most of them were in exceedingly senior roles and positions which also explains their need to be CEOs instead of plumbers. So many have been famous and even infamous Princesses, Queens, Empresses. Pharoinas that it is hardly surprising that the few such prior-era women were all so completely powerful and memorable. Each must at times have had several thousand other women occupying the same body / mind simultaneously. It also explains why women talk so much. There are a lot of them vying to get a word out.

    Of course, with so many jostling for prominence all at once they, the person at the time, must have been completely off the planet – as indeed, some were.

    The daily life, loves, sexual conquests and deaths of Princesses, Warrior-Priestesses and Empresses etc of alien worlds and fairy realms are quite commonly ‘remembered, vividly’ by modern women. If men, other than Buddhists have lived before, they are remarkably reticent about it or simply forgetful.

    But the comments above about differences in sexual enjoyment and longing coupled with doing the mowing really hits a nerve. Its all in the foreplay. Marc could tell us a lot, I’m sure. As could any man.

    For a man, foreplay is fraught with problems. Men prefer 30 to 45 Seconds of foreplay, less if at all possible. For the man, driving back to her place is considered a part of foreplay. No woman understands why this is.

    Women prefer 30 to 45 Minutes of focused foreplay, in addition to a bubbly spa with Champagne and dinner out; and (if she is in a ‘relationship’ or married) him doing the washing up, vacuuming, putting out the rubbish and mowing the lawn. As well as grocery shopping, washing & ironing, putting up shelves, re-arranging the furniture.

    And begging.

    This adds another 12 hours on average; sometimes a whole week.

    It is a mystery to him why these things didn’t turn her on when she was single and did them all herself. ( Apart from the begging)

    She “needs” to be turned on to, and by, him, each time, generally with some effort on his part.

    She expects him to be turned on to her all the time she’s there. Only her. Not the hem of any old dress. Not by any other female. Not by his own hormones. Her. He is to be totally disinterested in sex any time she is out of his sight.

    He has to initiate. He has to reach out to her, be sexually adventurous, interesting, open, inventive and daring. She wants to be ‘taken’.

    She sees sex as a form of ‘communication’. She wants to know his most secret sexual thoughts. His history and experience with other women. His fantasies. She wants him to ‘Talk to her’.

    He is reluctant. He wants to avoid this. He thinks she will not like it. So, he asks for her secret thoughts, fantasies, history etc., too, to head it off.
    Mistake.

    She lists between 1 and 500 men who all ‘pursued her relentlessly ‘ and she ‘gave in to’, was ‘swept away’ by, or was ‘forced to do it for /to him’ and were all either fantastic in bed or total jerks.

    Her fantasies are few and involve a 19th Century crinoline, hooped dress and a fan. She doesn’t have any sexual thoughts at all unless she’s with him; and they are about her. She does not use a single rude word. She swears it’s the truth.

    He believes her. He tells her. All. The truth, too. To be fair.

    She hates him. He talks ‘dirty’.

    The more initiating, adventurous, daring, interesting, inventive, open and reaching out to her he is, the more ‘demanding’, ‘needy’ or ‘perverted’ he is likely to be considered.

    For him, foreplay, indeed, the whole sex bizzo is very complicated.

  • Menck

    amfortas: “For him, foreplay, indeed, the whole sex bizzo is very complicated.”

    Which means, lucky for them, that we male types are hardwired for the straightforward “simple” approach — or the whole bizzo would NEVER happen.

    Like two cats with their tails tied together slung over a clothes line.

  • http://houstonconservative.com Will Malven

    amfortas,

    I am liking you more and more (but not in a Greek way).

    You have a rare gift for putting an unusual and comical spin on a topic which can be quite boring or quite confrontational.

    You have said a lot that is true and in a very entertaining way.

    Add to your explanation that she will assure him that she doesn’t really care how many women he has been with, and so he (foolishly) tells her the truth…Now the freezer is suddenly placed on overdrive and he might as well go home take a shower because there will be “no joy in Mudville tonight,” because “Casey, mighty Casey, just struck out.

  • http://houstonconservative.com Will Malven

    Denise,

    Be careful what you say about Phyllis…because David talks to her. I know because he said so…several times.

    Nice article. I agree with your dog training analogy.

  • thurston861

    I will be laughing uncontrollably thinking of Ms. Shlafley’s (who I cannot find words enough for my respect for her) words as I am driving down the road with Bitch, going somewhere, while she is going down on me. (She has this voracious appetite and does this to me everytime we go somewhere on a long two lane.)

    I will be trying not to laugh uncontrollable thinking of Amfortas’ observations after I get a couple fo drinks into her and we are alone where she wastes no time to “hit it like a negro.” (as Halerin Hilton Hill WNOX talked about one day. He is Black by the way.)

    Phylis has a very disciplined mind, one obviously a result of her upbringing and culture in the day of her upbringing.

    Those days are gone. I accepted that after my Ex’s first internet affair, and also accepted the psychopathy of Women living in denal of their sexuality and then living in denial of their responsiblity for their indiscretons.

    So now I like to think I am involved with a Healthy woman, who can admit that her Heart is screaming the lines of the First Oscar awarded for pornography given to Hallie Berry for Monster’s Ball.

    I get that reaction just by a squeeze to her knee.

    If Phylis did write that about using sex as a weapon of manipulation, that is terrorism and wilfull neglect.

    It is wrong and demeaning to men.

    Will, Amfortas is Mercucio.

  • amfortas

    Just relating all that back to Denise’s contention, it all just goes to prove what comtempt I must have for men, women, cats and dogs sleeping together, world peace, midgets in jello…..

    And, barragalo for the small kind thought, Willy. But it won’t give you a free pass when I see you writing some nut-job piece!

  • amfortas

    thurston, my fortunate friend, you portray a sex life of continual bliss and it befalls to someone to quote scripture. As you are always quoting the Bible, may I remind you that the most common phrase in the New Testament is, “And it came to pass…” This has several meanings, including what is now, passes.

    Your randy woman will change! They all do. Enjoy it while you can.

  • thurston861

    All this and she works 13 hours a day.

    She is energy and constant motion.

    I think she will be dead when she stops/changes.

    She knows that when she changes I am gone There will be way too much familiarity to handle a backlog of contempt, that I do not presently see nor sense, when that day comes!

    Yet perhaps Am, could there be at least one woman in this world who redeems woman-kind for she enjoys your wit, my analysis, and has equal use for Feminism as a Fish needs a bicycle?

    She really thinks that welfare Moms are Deadbeat Moms.

    In a world of infinite improbablitity there is yet a finite probability, thus such a creature must exist, as improbable as the supposition is!

    Mr. Usher said that finding a Healthy woman as opposed to a diseased woman is they key. Thus, might you have a problem attracting diseased women as he and others here have suggested?

    Your story above was the 14 years of my marriage. Now I found a creature completey opposite.

    Having lived almost 40 years without knowing each other, and knowing we cannot hold our breath against the inevitable disappointment in each other we A.) presume all Men are Dogs and all Women are Bitches and B.) life is way too short, HONESTY at all costs!

    So far there are two things that are unacceptable to her, tight jeans (they limit her access when I am driving [Holy Property Rights Batman!]) and I am not allowed to go ghetto like the last White guy did (like I want to do that and dress like a prison stealth ankle grabber).

    Oh yes there is a third. Using brawling language when angry. So I steal lines from the Movie Johnny Dangerously, where the Mob leader cannot speak the language so he cannot even curse properly, which never happens in real life.

    Yes AM, all things pass away. All things change. If you are good, they get made new again.

    Meanwhile I will laugh at the absolutists like I said I would.

  • thurston861

    Almost forgot…”Bliss”?

    More like mind numbing torture

    She said something about anything less than your toes spreading and bending to the back of your foot is faking it.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/denise-noe/ Denise Noe

    Will Malven said,

    Denise,

    Be careful what you say about Phyllis…because David talks to her. I know because he said so…several times.

    (Denise) Lucky David! Do you think he might introduce me to her?

    Will Malven: Nice article. I agree with your dog training analogy.

    (Denise) Thank you, Will. I’m always happy when someone agrees with me and it’s nice that you see the truth of the analogy.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/denise-noe/ Denise Noe

    PolishKnight said,

    Jackal1994 wrote: “So, I think Phyllis is right. I think when a man wants sex women SHOULD tell the man: did you fix the gutter, did you mow the lawn?”

    The context of this statement implies that the couple is married. In that case, the couple is already sharing the man’s finances (what he brings to the marriage) so it’s unfair to say to him: “What’s yours is mine and what’s mine is mine” and insist he do more work to get what he should have coming to him anyway.

    I think what Schlafly means is that a healthy sex life for a man motivates him to do more work around the house just as a happy, contented wife is more motivated to cook and clean and provide sex. I don’t think she meant a tit for tat situation.

    (Denise) The statement is open to interpretation. However, a tit for tat is a reasonable interpretation. After all, something is not a “reward” if you get it regardless. It’s a reward if you get it for good behavior. You don’t give the dog the reward biscuit regardless of what it does; you give it the biscuit when it does the trick. You don’t say “gooooood dog” regardless of what it does; you compliment the pooch when it sits or does its business or does something else you want it to do.
    Similarly, a wife might get her husband to do what she wants if he knows a “reward” will follow. He will be more motivated if he gets a treat after his proper performance.

    May 18, 2007 at 5:51 pm
    PolishKnight said,

    Schlafly’s views on sex are, in at least one area, factually incorrect. She says that women cannot have “an equal enjoyment” with men in the sexual area. Although she has probably not experienced this, the truth is that women can have much greater sexual enjoyment than men.

    You state this as a fact when it’s clearly quite arguable. I suppose it’s possible that women could enjoy sex as much as men, but common wisdom and simple observation implies otherwise.

    Denise wrote: Read my essay “One reason there can never be sexual equality in sex” and I talk at more length about this.

    (Denise) I think we need to clarify that I’m talking about sexual enjoyment through any means rather than just PARTNERED sexual enjoyment. I believe it’s been pretty well established by studies such as those of Masters and Johnson that women have a greater capacity for sexual enjoyment when that done solo or with a vibrator is included. They found some women could climax as often as 60 times in a row with the vibrator. Go back to my essay “One reason there can never be sexual equality in sex.” I talk about how as a chaste teenager and young adult I had 6-18 orgasms per day. I also discuss a male friend who had a lady friend who climaxed as often as 21 times during their sessions. I asked him how often he climaxed and he said, “Once.” Then I asked, “Doesn’t it make you feel inferior when she does that and you don’t?” He said, “No, because I know the difference between a man and a woman.” Another time I talked with a male friend about how many orgasms he had and he said he could have 5 a day and I mentioned a female friend who could have that many in an hour and he said, “It’s different. I’m male, she’s female.”

    As I’ve already pointed out, when I asked my brother to guess the parties being described from the “motivate . . . restrain, reward” list, he guessed “A person and a dog.” My ex-husband thought she made the wife out to be similar to a dog trainer.

    PolishKnight: It sounds here like you’re quibbling over her phrasing based upon what your brother said about her terms out-of-context.

    (Denise) When I read Schlafly’s list of things women could do with men through sex, it struck me as very like a dog trainer and a dog. It seemed the same to my ex-husband who thought training a dog might be a good preparation for marriage for young women if seen in Schlafly’s terms.

    PolishKnight: In another context her terms are require reasonable: motivate, restrain, reward also could describe nearly all higher educational institutions. And yes, intellectuals have often made such a similar connection as your brother about those!

    Schlafly’s views in this area are similar to those of Dr. Laura Schlessinger in seeing men as essentially more “simple” (primitive) creatures.

    This isn’t necessarily insulting as others here have pointed out.

    (Denise) I think it is insulting. Humans are more complex than gorillas who are more complex that dogs who are more complex than fish. It seems odd that some of our most complicated psychologies and philosophies were invented by men if they are the simple sex. To see men as simple makes them “lesser” in a specifically human sense. It reminds me of the Victorian saying, “Horses sweat; gentlemen perspire; ladies glow.”

  • red pill

    Polski:
    Again with the sex? Enough! If the/any woman admits that sex to her femimine peers is just not that extra-overriding a motivation and raison d’etre, she may just have represented the fo shizzel 411, dog. Why must all this peripheralism flourish so and why here? Best thing really is to re-establish a familiarity with reality and deal, not make dishonest misinterpretations, proclamations and policy based on circumstances representeing 3 or more SD from the mean. What is this incipient neo-americanism that we have to take reality and spindle, fold and mutilate it til unrecognizable, and for what obtuse purpose? In doing that, the lessons of reality become lost and the foolishness and autism grow exponentially and simple acceptance of obvious reality is no longer the endpoint of perception…

  • MartianBachelor

    The whole Schlafly and New Right view of men was talked about 20+ years ago in Barbara Ehrenreich’s book The Hearts of Men (in the chapter “Backlash – The Antifeminist Assault on Men”):

    “Short of a program to indenture men into wage-earning for individual women [sound familiar?], all that the right can actually offer is the restoration of a moral climate in which male rebellion [from being dutiful suitors, husbands, protector/providers, and fathers] will once more be either deviant, sinful, or medically unwise. Part of this effort lies in the right’s campaign to restore ‘the consequences’ of heterosexual sex, by eliminating abortion and possibly contraception. Another part is the campaign to eliminate or criminalize homosexuality (and in the hate literature I have seen, the gays are disproportionately male). Then there are the multi-pronged efforts, often focused on the content and funding of education, which aim to popularize the Old Testament as a guide to everyday social relationships. Finally, and with less fanfare, there has emerged a New Right understanding of the psychology of men, a set of insights and assumptions which, once again, rationalizes conformity as a means to health.

    “Compared to the earlier conformist psychology represented by the neo-Freudians in the fifties and sixties, the New Right psychology is marked, above all, by a profound contempt for men [emphasis mine]. In the neo-Freudian scheme, men achieved maturity and mental health through their own efforts. They performed their ‘developmental tasks’, at least most men did, and only the minority who fumbled at this undertaking were cordoned off for psychiatric attention as potential homosexuals or victims of permanent immaturity. In lay terms, the deviant minority were failures, half-men, weaklings. But in today’s New Right ideology, all men are weak, and there is no redemption through individual works, or even ‘tasks’. Men, in their weakness, are maintained in working order only by the constant efforts, demands, and attentions of their wives.

    “Ann Patterson, an Oklahoma anti-ERA activist interviewed by Jan O’Reilly, put it this way:
    `If you take away a man’s responsibility to provide for his wife and children, you’ve taken away everything he has. A woman, after all, can do everything a man can do. And have babies. A man has awe for a woman. Men have more fragile egos.’

    “Here the paycheck has become instrumental to some larger therapeutic project, a psychodrama of family dependencies aimed at propping up the fragile male ego. All will be lost if a man’s tenuous sense of self-esteem is challenged by a female paycheck, even a meager one. As Kathleen Teague of Virginia Stop-ERA and the American Legislative Exchange Council explained to me:
    `If a man doesn’t feel needed by his wife, he’ll go out and find another woman who does need him. Take the case of a woman who’s been a housewife, then she gets women-libberized and goes into the work force. No matter what, her husband isn’t going to feel he’s number one in her life anymore. So she will lose him to a more conservative woman.’

    “What a more conservative woman will offer is explained by Phyllis Schlafly in The Power of the Positive Woman. ‘A wife must appreciate and admire her husband’, for the marriage will not last unless ‘she is willing to give him the appreciation and admiration his manhood craves’. Fortunately, women themselves have no such cravings, for she tells us, ‘Whereas a woman’s chief emotional need is active (i.e., to love), a man’s prime emotional need is passive (i.e., to be appreciated or admired).’

    “This new, 1970s style right-wing analysis of the heterosexual bond is a far cry from the traditional conservative view, in which the sexes were united by the natural, God-given, complementarity of male strength and female weakness. In the nineteenth century, for example, a common argument against women’s suffrage was that women should not be allowed to vote for laws that they were physically incapable of enforcing, though, of course, no corpulent state legislator was ever called upon to apprehend and personally detain a lawbreaker. (Women’s strength was presumed to be of an ethereal, moral kind, which would be instantly compromised by contact with a ballot box.) But today’s New Right ideology inverts the traditional imagery of gender roles: Men are ‘passive, fragile’; while women are ‘active’ and [like Barbie] ‘can do everything’. Taylor Caldwell’s insistence on women’s innate strength and competence is echoed again and again by Phyllis Schlafly. At the victory party for the defeat of the ERA, Schlafly attributed her side’s victory to their greater self-confidence as women. The feminists, she said, ‘are victims of their own ideology; they believe that women can’t do anything, that women are oppressed. But we of course know we … can go right out and do anything we want.’

    “In their shift away from the traditional axis of male strength and activity vs. female weakness and passivity, our modern antifeminists were no doubt influenced by their own adversaries: feminism, with its insistence on women’s strength and ability, and humanistic psychology, with its discovery of men’s softness and vulnerability. For example, Tim LaHaye, a member of the national board of the Moral Majority and a prolific family-life advisor whose almost exclusive published source of information is the Bible, opens his 1977 book, Understanding the Male Temperment, on a note lifted from the literature of men’s liberation:
    `For the past thirty years, six-foot-four John Wayne has stalked through the American imagination as the embodiment of manhood…. He has left not only a trail of broken hearts and jaws everywhere, but millions of fractured male egos, which could never quite measure up to the two-fisted, ramrod-backed character who conquered the Old West. The truth of the matter is that no man could measure up to that myth in real life — not even John Wayne.’

    “The revision of right-wing psychology that took men from being natural protectors to being natural weaklings has not been easy and is certainly not complete. After allowing men to dismount from the John Wayne image, LaHaye moves quickly to exonerate his fellows:
    `Personally, I’m convinced that most men of our generation are as good as men have ever been. Oh, I have to admit that we hear regular reports of cop-outs, dissenters, and deserters of wives, children, and country today — but what’s new about that? Western history reveals that we have always had “yellow-bellied hoss thieves” and wife-beaters.’

    “The Heritage Foundation’s Onalee McGraw seemed more conflicted by the contradictions between male behavior and what was formerly taken to be natural or divine law. At the beginning of our conversation she shared with me her ‘premise’ that ‘the permanent heterosexual union is natural; I even say this is a quality given by a divine person and is written so to speak in the heart of man’. Yet she warmed to the subject of the male rebellion and the collapse of sanctions against footloose breadwinners, she asserted knowingly, ‘The men are going to leave [their wives] if they don’t have to pay, because men are this way. Especially, you know, when they get into middle age.’

    “Once it is admitted that what is ‘written on the heart of man’ may be of the same genre as what is written on the walls of men’s rooms, then the world becomes a much less secure place in which to marry and raise a family. As Schlafly’s troops forthrightly admit, the interests of men no longer coincide with those of women, at least in the short term, and the short term may last until the onset of baldness and angina. Taken just a little further, the right’s negative reappraisal of male nature implies that men are not just a problem for women, but for any kind of stable social order. This radical view, anticipated in rough outline by Freud, is the cornerstone of the social theory of the best-selling right-wing writer George Gilder. Gilder elevates the grasping anxiety of the Schlaflyites to a moral crusade: Men are the problem, and wives, in the old-fashioned sense, are the solution.”

    The next sub-section of the book then goes on to critique Gilder’s book Sexual Suicide, a later, revised edition of which was called Men and Marriage. The basic premise of Gilder’s work seems to be that the role of women, besides childbearing and childrearing, is to tame and civilize men, an amazingly common view these days. This idea was ruthlessly critiqued in Chapter 7 of Amneus’s book Garbage Generation, where Gilder’s logic is turned completely on its head.

    So, yea, Denise: Schlafly doesn’t have a particularly flattering view of men.

  • PolishKnight

    Denise wrote:
    “(Denise) I think we need to clarify that I’m talking about sexual enjoyment through any means rather than just PARTNERED sexual enjoyment. I believe it’s been pretty well established by studies such as those of Masters and Johnson that women have a greater capacity for sexual enjoyment when that done solo or with a vibrator is included. They found some women could climax as often as 60 times in a row with the vibrator. Go back to my essay “One reason there can never be sexual equality in sex.” I talk about how as a chaste teenager and young adult I had 6-18 orgasms per day. I also discuss a male friend who had a lady friend who climaxed as often as 21 times during their sessions. I asked him how often he climaxed and he said, “Once.” Then I asked, “Doesn’t it make you feel inferior when she does that and you don’t?” He said, “No, because I know the difference between a man and a woman.” Another time I talked with a male friend about how many orgasms he had and he said he could have 5 a day and I mentioned a female friend who could have that many in an hour and he said, “It’s different. I’m male, she’s female.”

    I am honestly confused. Is this exchange supposed to show that sexual experiences cannot be compared as “better” or “worse” because they’re different? Or that men are somehow biased against female sexual pleasure?

    The M&J study in this context is meaningless. A woman climaxed 60 times in an hour with a vibrator. So what? This isn’t heterosexual sex which is what we’re discussing and she’s a single case. *MOST* men climax SEVERAL times per day through masturbation as well as through heterosexual sex (when they get it) as compared to many women who never experience an orgasm AT ALL!

    Total apples and oranges there. But based upon the GENERAL experiences of men and women and their behaviors, men enjoy and desire sex more than women no matter how you measure it.

    Irregardless of your brother’s opinion of the Schlafly’s description of men, their “simple” viewpoint towards sex: Find a hot chick, bang her, finish offers more PRACTICAL opportunities for “partnered” sexual pleasure than the elaborate romance novels/”egalitarian” relationships as described by feminists and “complicated” women’s viewpoints on love.

    And this is borne out (pardon the pun) by women’s greater divorce rate and single motherhood rate today despite them having more access to so-called “egalitarian” men who could give them all the sex they like. Yes?

    If you put broccolli in front of a cat, and she does not eat it, and most cats are that way, you can go on and on until you’re blue in the face to tell me that it’s degrading to say that cats simply like to eat meat but that doesn’t make it any less untrue.

    Oh, and about degrading men? Sadly, she has a point: If men could stand up for themselves and grow a pair and not sell out to get some nookie we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Too many men want sex so bad that they put up with wives and girlfriends who regard them as crap. Now _that’s_ degrading. What man wants sex with women who DESPISE him? Apparently, most in our culture.

    Makes dogs look SUPERIOR by comparison. I don’t blame these women for treating these castrated wimps like crap.

  • http://whatmenthinkofwomen.blogspot.com/ christianj

    The act of sex is not for the enjoyment of females. It’s meant to be for procreating.

    Women can have as many climaxes she likes, sex stops when the male has his. So what is the issue here. Another woman telling us once again how women have reached perfection ?

    It’s another non-topic, another time waster, another “we are better than you” drivel.

    Keep it up Denise, well done.

  • amfortas

    Am c’mon Cj, we should have no problem with women enjoying sex. Saying that sex is not for enjoyment flies in the face of eons of experience. Sure its meant for procreating, but only for? Maybe you will tell us next that legs are for pulling.

    I know its been a bit dry up there in Lonny but the wet is with us now so go jump in a puddle or two and dip your wick, mate. :)

    Denise, you have set off a very interesting discussion here. Well done.

    One thing no one has mentioned is the seeming lack of satisfaction that women must get from orgasm. If their climaxes were so great, they would be satisfied, shirley? Wanting another immediately is an indication that it wasn’t enough. Or maybe there is a more evolutionary explanation.

    I heard an interesting theory that for best conception results a woman should climax to relax her internal reproductive equipment before the man ejaculates and then immediately after. The rhythmic pulsations of the muscles around the cervix ‘sucks’ the semen into the womb. This has a certain sense to it.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/denise-noe/ Denise Noe

    MartianBachelor:
    So, yea, Denise: Schlafly doesn’t have a particularly flattering view of men.

    (Denise) Thank you, MartianBachelor, I’m glad someone sees what I see.

    PolishKnight said,

    Denise wrote:
    “(Denise) I think we need to clarify that I’m talking about sexual enjoyment through any means rather than just PARTNERED sexual enjoyment. I believe it’s been pretty well established by studies such as those of Masters and Johnson that women have a greater capacity for sexual enjoyment when that done solo or with a vibrator is included. They found some women could climax as often as 60 times in a row with the vibrator. Go back to my essay “One reason there can never be sexual equality in sex.” I talk about how as a chaste teenager and young adult I had 6-18 orgasms per day. I also discuss a male friend who had a lady friend who climaxed as often as 21 times during their sessions. I asked him how often he climaxed and he said, “Once.” Then I asked, “Doesn’t it make you feel inferior when she does that and you don’t?” He said, “No, because I know the difference between a man and a woman.” Another time I talked with a male friend about how many orgasms he had and he said he could have 5 a day and I mentioned a female friend who could have that many in an hour and he said, “It’s different. I’m male, she’s female.”

    I am honestly confused. Is this exchange supposed to show that sexual experiences cannot be compared as “better” or “worse” because they’re different? Or that men are somehow biased against female sexual pleasure?

    (Denise) The men I talked to were hardly “biased against female sexual pleasure.” After all, my late friend didn’t mind at all the fact that his female partner received far more enjoyment than he did! Knowing “the difference between a man and a woman” meant he didn’t feel inferior when a woman reached orgasm so much more frequently than he did. He was aware of the simple truth that, as Arianna Huffington once put it, “men have greater drive and women have greater capacity.”

    PolishKnight: The M&J study in this context is meaningless. A woman climaxed 60 times in an hour with a vibrator. So what? This isn’t heterosexual sex which is what we’re discussing and she’s a single case. *MOST* men climax SEVERAL times per day through masturbation as well as through heterosexual sex (when they get it) as compared to many women who never experience an orgasm AT ALL!

    (Denise) It wasn’t just a single case. M&J found several women who could climax like that. Yes, there are many women who “never experience and orgasm AT ALL!” Women of Schlafly’s generation were often taught that “nice girls” aren’t sexual. As the mother in “Splendor in the Grass” says, “No nice girl ever does. She just lets her husband do it so she can have children.”

    PolishKnight: Total apples and oranges there. But based upon the GENERAL experiences of men and women and their behaviors, men enjoy and desire sex more than women no matter how you measure it.

    (Denise) Again, desire and enjoyment are not the same thing. Men desire partnered sex more than women but women have at least a greater POTENTIAL for sexual enjoyment (especially if solo sex is included). A joke says: “Why don’t men know when women have orgasms? Because they’re never there.” Of course, they are often present in reality. My late friend was there when his friend rubbed off on him.

    PolishKnight: Irregardless of your brother’s opinion of the Schlafly’s description of men, their “simple” viewpoint towards sex: Find a hot chick, bang her, finish offers more PRACTICAL opportunities for “partnered” sexual pleasure than the elaborate romance novels/”egalitarian” relationships as described by feminists and “complicated” women’s viewpoints on love.

    And this is borne out (pardon the pun) by women’s greater divorce rate and single motherhood rate today despite them having more access to so-called “egalitarian” men who could give them all the sex they like. Yes?

    If you put broccolli in front of a cat, and she does not eat it, and most cats are that way, you can go on and on until you’re blue in the face to tell me that it’s degrading to say that cats simply like to eat meat but that doesn’t make it any less untrue.

    Oh, and about degrading men? Sadly, she has a point: If men could stand up for themselves and grow a pair and not sell out to get some nookie we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Too many men want sex so bad that they put up with wives and girlfriends who regard them as crap. Now _that’s_ degrading. What man wants sex with women who DESPISE him? Apparently, most in our culture.

    (Denise) Schlafly is saying the opposite. She believes the lesser sexuality of women means they can and should “motivate” men through the “skillful” giving and withholding of sexual favors.

    amfortas said,

    Denise, you have set off a very interesting discussion here. Well done.

    (Denise) Thank you, amfortas.

    amfortas: One thing no one has mentioned is the seeming lack of satisfaction that women must get from orgasm. If their climaxes were so great, they would be satisfied, shirley? Wanting another immediately is an indication that it wasn’t enough. Or maybe there is a more evolutionary explanation.

    (Denise) This is an interesting point. I remember that as a teenager I used to try to test my powers of self-control. I would say to myself, “Today I will not masturbate.” Awhile later, I would revise the test to, “Today I will not masturbate more than once.” Then it would be, “Today I will not masturbate more than twice.” One day I was able to keep it down to only three times. My ex-husband told me that the greater female orgasmic capacity has to do with the weakness of internal muscles that are aroused. Men’s internal muscles are stronger and so more efficiently flush out arousal.

    amfortas: I heard an interesting theory that for best conception results a woman should climax to relax her internal reproductive equipment before the man ejaculates and then immediately after. The rhythmic pulsations of the muscles around the cervix ‘sucks’ the semen into the womb. This has a certain sense to it.

    (Denise) Makes sense to me. I’ve also heard that sexual intercourse when the woman orgasms is more likely to result in the conception of a male. This is because the area is more “greased” so the male sperm, which swim a little faster, get an extra boost in making a quick swim to the egg. If the area isn’t as “greased,” the female sperm, which last longer, are most apt to hit the finish line. I don’t know whether or not this is factually proven but it does make sense.

  • amfortas

    Oooh, Denise. I love it when you talk dirty! :)

  • thurston861

    The process for conceiving a male is as you say Denise. Female climax must be first for her ph will kill all of the Male Sperm instantly if she does not. The environment must be right. Subsequent orgasms speed the process.

    Learned this from an Orthodox Rabbi. The knowledge is over 3000 years old and was applied in my marriage. We had a son when we wanted a son and a daughter when I decided it was time for a daughter.

  • thurston861

    60 Times an hour, sounds like my Ladyfriend.

    She also keeps picking up the phone and calling her doctor after about four hours saying something about Priapism and commercials telling her to call her doctor is she experiences an errection for over four hours.

    I really thought it was none of his business.

  • amfortas

    Thurston, how do you find the time to type to us, and is that the explanation for all the typos?

  • thurston861

    Like I have said, she works long shifts.

  • PolishKnight

    Hello Denise,

    I don’t want this debate to drag any further (you’ve written many other articles since that are worth responding to.) Here’s my final thoughts with a grain of salt. Cheers!

    (Denise) It wasn’t just a single case. M&J found several women who could climax like that. Yes, there are many women who “never experience and orgasm AT ALL!” Women of Schlafly’s generation were often taught that “nice girls” aren’t sexual. As the mother in “Splendor in the Grass” says, “No nice girl ever does. She just lets her husband do it so she can have children.”

    I think we got bogged down in the swamp when we tried to guess what was on Schlafly’s mind. All I’m saying is that, philosophically, there are several ways to look at women’s reduced sexual desire and ultimate enjoyment: It could reflect badly on women as being internally sexually repressed or incapable OR badly on men for being trained dogs.

    That said, “many” is a very ambiguous term. Many women, I suppose, want househusbands and to fight in war, for example, while the vast majority do not. Overall, IN GENERAL, women have less PRACTICAL capacity for sexual desire and enjoyment than men OVERALL. Get it? M&J could fill their labs with porn stars if they like, but that doesn’t translate into what most women and men’s experiences.

    It’s not just Schlaflys generation that has hangups. As you point out, women desire partnered relationships and feminism and the sexual revolution has made those MORE difficult for normal women who want a breadwinner to obtain so that means they have LESS capacity for sexual enjoyment, without hangups, today than 50 years ago in the “bad old days!!!”

    If things had changed for women, for the better, in partnered sexual relationships we wouldn’t be having so many discussions here about deadbeat dads, DV accusations, women winding up alone as single mothers, sexual harassment lawsuits, etc.

    Denise wrote:
    (Denise) Schlafly is saying the opposite. She believes the lesser sexuality of women means they can and should “motivate” men through the “skillful” giving and withholding of sexual favors.

    I believe I clarified in other exchanges that this type of feedback is normal in human relationships in other ways. People sometimes don’t listen to us or take us for granted and then we need to remind them of our value. That’s so amazingly ugly, but true. If we can use these subconscious reminders in mostly positive ways, it’s not a bad thing. Should bosses withhold raises from employees who perform badly while giving them to good performers? Is that dog training? Sure it is, but it’s also considered exceptionally egalitarian.

    Final thought: When you quip about women having orgasms without men there, that’s my point: Men are able to experience orgasms WITH A PARTNER (even though they can very easily orgasm without a partner) without it being a big mystery.

    I’m reminded of much of your philosophy about how, in theory, women can be equal to men in the workplace without negative social consequences which is analogous to women possibly having greater sexual pleasure than men. Sure, in theory. But REALITY is another matter and that’s what we’re dealing with here for the next 10,000 years or so! You’re still drinking the feminist kool-aid that claims that women are sexually repressed due to 1950′s/traditionalist values or that if we can just get an egalitarian society going than all will work out in utopia land where women and men do as they please and there are as many housewives as househusbands.

    That’s a total fantasy. Even if the yen did this and the dollar did that and all the stars aligned, the REALITY is that women, and by “women” I mean 99% of them, will fit into the stereotypical molds. That’s simply who and what they are. Accept and respect them for who they are. I do.

  • thurston861

    OMG! Bosses withholding raises is NOTHING like a Wife withholding Sex!

    In Talmud a WOMAN has a RIGHT to her Husband no less that twice a WEEK!

    Marraige is supposed to be a Union, and the Physical act of the Union reaching Orgasm benefits both husband and Wife Psychologically and physiologically in was that science is just now beiginning to delve into. Science will never be able to reach into the spiritual realm of teh creation of the bond except to say hormonal releases bond the two together.

    That being said, there is then PHYSICAL and scientific evidence that withholding Sex in a Marriage is an affront to the Vows adn purpose of Marriage, is an affront to the Marriage itsef, because it interrupts the bond.

    Sex must be off the table in regards to distribution of labor in teh day to day function of the Family unit.

    Removal of the Physical Coupling removes the Psychological Bond that is further charged with hormones that sustain the Male Female Bond of Marraige.

    Placing the removal of teh Bond upon conditions of domestic performance
    after the Statist Bond has been agreed upon is a Crime against the Marraige and an act of War and terrorism against the Man.

    It is psychopathic. masochistic, sociopathic, devious thinking.

    A Woman is to equally love her husband as her own flesh, so since she ate too much, or did not get the house clean she should go perform clitoral circumcision on herself?

    Withholding of pshysical union is abusive of the equal Right of the Man to the coupling.

    Withholding coupling is abuse and disregard of his similar neurological and chemical make up to Woman that drives them to come together.

    Withholding Sex in a Marriage is basiacally the same as withholding food from a child. Both are living growng things when healthy. Both are necessary to society. Children cannot be without Marraige, just as Men and women.

    The connection of Sex to conditional performance is a Crime against Society.

    It is gross and disgusting.

    If a man is abusive, he is not cherishing his wife. He is breaking his vow, the wife should not break hers, two wrongs do not make a right, Stay and get counseling, or flee for your safety. But compounding the problem by Sexual Warfare is a Crime.

  • thurston861

    I thank Denise for clueing me in on the fact that Phylis is a criminal who believes there is ever justification of Women to use Sex as a Weapon against their Husbands.

    There is never justification. If the Bond is broken it is broken, but to play withhold and break to get a reaction, that is sick and sadistic.

    A diseased mind.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/denise-noe/ Denise Noe

    thurston861 said,

    The process for conceiving a male is as you say Denise. Female climax must be first for her ph will kill all of the Male Sperm instantly if she does not. The environment must be right. Subsequent orgasms speed the process.

    Learned this from an Orthodox Rabbi. The knowledge is over 3000 years old and was applied in my marriage. We had a son when we wanted a son and a daughter when I decided it was time for a daughter.

    (Denise) Unlike some people, I’m not at all surprised that an Orthodox Rabbi — or a conservative Christian minister, or a priest — might be familiar with something like this. After all, both Jews and Christians revere a book that contains the Song of Solomon, surely some of the most powerful and poetic erotica (not “pornography” but quite explicit) ever written.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/denise-noe/ Denise Noe

    PolishKnight said,

    Hello Denise,

    I don’t want this debate to drag any further (you’ve written many other articles since that are worth responding to.)>>

    (Denise) If you enjoy my work, why don’t you read it elsewhere? I’ve got a lot at http://www.crimelibrary.com and http://www.crimemagazine.com. I’ve also got a lot of poems and short stories you can find just by plugging my name into a search engine.

    Here’s my final thoughts with a grain of salt. Cheers!

    (Denise) It wasn’t just a single case. M&J found several women who could climax like that. Yes, there are many women who “never experience and orgasm AT ALL!” Women of Schlafly’s generation were often taught that “nice girls” aren’t sexual. As the mother in “Splendor in the Grass” says, “No nice girl ever does. She just lets her husband do it so she can have children.”

    I think we got bogged down in the swamp when we tried to guess what was on Schlafly’s mind. All I’m saying is that, philosophically, there are several ways to look at women’s reduced sexual desire and ultimate enjoyment: It could reflect badly on women as being internally sexually repressed or incapable OR badly on men for being trained dogs.

    That said, “many” is a very ambiguous term. Many women, I suppose, want househusbands and to fight in war, for example, while the vast majority do not. Overall, IN GENERAL, women have less PRACTICAL capacity for sexual desire and enjoyment than men OVERALL. Get it? M&J could fill their labs with porn stars if they like, but that doesn’t translate into what most women and men’s experiences.>>

    (Denise) “Many” in that context means that it was pretty much the norm, or at least extremely common, in Schlafly’s day and prior to divide young ladies into “nice girls” and “bad girls” and to teach the “nice” that sexual desire and enjoyment just wasn’t their province. I’ve seen and read interviews with women who found this sort of training didn’t disappear on marriage.
    Again, the basic differences between men and women are that men have far less cost to PARTNERED sex acts and have greater desire while women have a greater CAPACITY for sexual enjoyment. I believe this has been pretty well established by studies showing that female orgasms tend to last longer and be more intense and that we are ABLE — although obviously many women do not — to orgasm many more times than men. As a chaste young woman, I had 6-18 orgasms per day, every day. Would I have been climaxing more frequently had I been a male? My late male friend’s female friend came as many as 21 times during a session. Repeated, multiple orgasms are much more likely to occur in ladies than in gentlemen. Again, desire and enjoyment are not the same thing. Furthermore, masturbation tends to be a much more efficient means to female pleasure than partnered sex which also has many costs specifically for the female.
    The fact that women can experience greater sexual pleasure has been known for quite some time although some ladies don’t like men to know that because they prefer to be thought of as men’s sexual victims rather than sexual agents in their own right. In ancient Greek mythology, Zeus and Hera had an argument over who enjoys sex more, men or women. Zeus took my position and Hera yours. They decided to settle it by asking a figure who was then male but had previously been female. He replied, “I have to tell the truth. Women do.” Hera struck him blind.

    PolishKnight: It’s not just Schlaflys generation that has hangups. As you point out, women desire partnered relationships and feminism and the sexual revolution has made those MORE difficult for normal women who want a breadwinner to obtain so that means they have LESS capacity for sexual enjoyment, without hangups, today than 50 years ago in the “bad old days!!!”>>

    (Denise) I doubt that.

    PolishKnight: If things had changed for women, for the better, in partnered sexual relationships we wouldn’t be having so many discussions here about deadbeat dads, DV accusations, women winding up alone as single mothers, sexual harassment lawsuits, etc.

    Denise wrote:
    (Denise) Schlafly is saying the opposite. She believes the lesser sexuality of women means they can and should “motivate” men through the “skillful” giving and withholding of sexual favors.

    I believe I clarified in other exchanges that this type of feedback is normal in human relationships in other ways. People sometimes don’t listen to us or take us for granted and then we need to remind them of our value. That’s so amazingly ugly, but true. If we can use these subconscious reminders in mostly positive ways, it’s not a bad thing. Should bosses withhold raises from employees who perform badly while giving them to good performers? Is that dog training? Sure it is, but it’s also considered exceptionally egalitarian.>>

    (Denise) It’s interesting that you see a wife as similar to a boss, a husband as her employee, and sex as equivalent to a raise!

    PolishKnight: Final thought: When you quip about women having orgasms without men there, that’s my point: Men are able to experience orgasms WITH A PARTNER (even though they can very easily orgasm without a partner) without it being a big mystery.>>

    (Denise) Yes.

    I’m reminded of much of your philosophy about how, in theory, women can be equal to men in the workplace without negative social consequences which is analogous to women possibly having greater sexual pleasure than men. Sure, in theory. But REALITY is another matter and that’s what we’re dealing with here for the next 10,000 years or so! You’re still drinking the feminist kool-aid that claims that women are sexually repressed due to 1950′s/traditionalist values or that if we can just get an egalitarian society going than all will work out in utopia land where women and men do as they please and there are as many housewives as househusbands.

    (Denise) I don’t think that there will ever be as many househusbands as housewives. Nor do I believe the number of women garbage collectors, lumberjacks (lumberjills?), firefighters, or coal miners is ever apt to reach double digits. Read my essay, “Two Cheers for the Cleavers.” However, it is true that women of past generations tended to be sexually repressed — and often had a simmering anger toward men as a result, regarding men as “beasts” who “used women.” That’s the sort of anti-male Kool-Aid that was often passed from mother to daughter.

  • conservativation

    Maybe this Phyllis attitude is so prevalent in the church as to explain why there is a conditional attitude about the fact that we are not to be denying one another….keps our thoughts pure, something like that.
    I recently was posting on another board, told my story about the women in the seminar that venemously reacted to men saying sex was number 1 need. A woman answered saying she simply didn’t believe me. But then she went on to say that if those men had this and had they done that, and if they treated wife this way and bought her those little gifts that way, then they would be a gettin it mo!
    I thanked her for making my point.

    I understand all the developmental things about the consequences of sex, pregnancy etc. that historically could have held the gals back, but now, if these gals are having these screaming orgasms in exponential quantities why then are they still acting like sex with them is something they “give” men? Beer bellys and bad breath aside….

  • thurston861

    cons – great to see you check in on this. I know it hits directly to your work.

    I hope you read my points above and helps your future deductions.

    The fact is that Phyllis gave us our direct evidence that these type of women are not benign or spiritual.

    They are dominators like prison guards over slaves extending priviledges.

    If we are to believe Usher regarding the WKKK, then we are to believe the women of the Bible Belt come directly from this diseased thought, and it had always been there. For that is where it hatched.

    So, this means that your effort on this issue will eventually indict the historical behavior of the women of the church.

    Your interpretation will have to have imperical evidence that this the position you present proves the institutionalized diseased thought of church women denying the hormonal reality of their sexuality, and conditional coupling with their husbands is REBELLION against G-D and abuse of the nature of the Man they vowed to love and obey.

    Enjoy!

  • PolishKnight

    SHORT final thought! :-)

    I think we have a communication issue. I know you said desire is different than enjoyment, but I addressed that paradigm along with the multiple-orgasmic women featured in the study versus common experiences even for liberated women. But then again, I blathered on about feminism in general so I deserve it if your mind wanders too…

    That said, it was a wonderful thought-provoking article and discussion Denise. Cheers and ‘night!






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