We Gossip While Rome Burns
Nero supposedly fiddled while Rome burned and we gossip while modern day Rome collapses around us. Everything natural to life is disintegrating before our eyes-family, home, roots, tradition, and a spiritual way of life.
Instead of addressing the calamity and doing something about it, we gossip. We are like a group of women with an issue to be resolved and no men available to resolve it. Talk, talk, and talk. I feel somewhat embarrassed for the women who write for MND and especially for those who read it. If they wanted gossip they would tune in to Oprah. They’re coming to us to see what we are doing about the adverse conditions around them and we do nothing other than gossip and preen our feathers, and talk about who knows what best.
In any given month we can find among the comments aspersions regarding, blacks, Hispanics, immigrants in general, Muslims, Catholics, and Asian religions. Of what remains gets divided into liberals and conservatives and among that group there is argument over who is most conservative or who knows the Bible best. This activity is pure feminine aristocratic behavior. We shun those not like us and then by government fiat want to impose our will.
The government serves as the substitute male in the Western culture, which I was recently reminded of as I browsed through, The Old Regime and the French Revolution, the last written work of Alexis de Tocqueville in which he wrote the following: “The ends proposed by the reformers varied greatly, but the means were always the same. They wished to make use of the central power, as it stood, for shattering the whole social structure and rebuilding it on the lines that seemed to them desirable.†He goes on to say, “the government having stepped into the place of Divine Providence in France, it was but natural that everyone, when in difficulties, invoked its aid.†He points out that the government of France was more centralized and larger after the Revolution than before.
What Western man fails to realize is that by substituting government for patriarchy it ultimately usurps all of male authority and we become neutered dependents upon that which we created. There are no exceptions. Every form of European government ultimately draws unto itself all authority; democracy more so than the others for it is based on the self-gratification of the individual with no thought of family or a race consciousness. Calls for a return to the basic Constitution leave me unmoved. The Internet contains essays written by Madison and Jefferson deploring what they had created.
I do not want to get to far a field here and lose the thread of this article. The issue is that we have become impotent and do nothing but grouse about what we do not like. If there is someone or some organization offering a better idea of action than I do, then take it and support it with your time, talent, and treasure. The action needs to come from outside of the government and also outside of the narrow paradigm of Western thinking.
When India decided to build steel mills it sent its engineers to observe and learn from France, Germany and Japan, those nations that had the most efficient steel mills. In the same manner it would behoove us to consider the cultures of people who have low rates of mental illness, divorce, adultery, and incarceration as we address making change in our nation. We can no longer impose our will by fiat. Mass change requires the support of the masses.
Rome is burning and Caesar will be stepping in soon. We have to stop bickering among ourselves and unite to preserve that which we hold dear to us. Let’s turn our chitchat into positive steps to bring about change. A certain amount of talk supports our male comradery, which I appreciate and share in, but the thrust of our talk needs to be directed at bringing about change. The time for action is now. Let’s talk up some action.
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Stumble It!
Menck, I believe I am one of the guys who has a similar viewpoint as you, and there are just a handful of others. Its not what I would call a nuanced view, not a sort of non-view view like a John Kerry of Mens Rights. Rather it is not on either extreme. I’ve tried to explain it, you’ve tried to explain it, and it in no way contradicts anything EG says, or even thurston for that matter, what I follow of it. Working with men who go to church is different then working with the church…yet no matter how we say it it comes back BAD IDEA, CHURCH BAD. CHURCH PART OF PROBLEM, or it comes back that we are Bible thumping or any number of permutations of the attempts to contradict us, when we havent really staked out a position on anything, just expressed optimism about the group within which we surmise there may be compatriots.
I’m consistent, I say again the church is a mess, the divorce rate stuff is dead on, and I literally blame the church in many ways. Even as we speak Im in a long drawn out exchange with someone who responded to me from the organization DivorceCare. I am telling her how the cow ate the cabbage about her program…imagine that she doesn’t agree. I speak to every mens group coordinator, every men’s pastor, every head pastor I can get to. I email them almost daily, randomly selecting them from churches I find online. BUT, at the same time I know that effort will be 99.9% futile, and therefore I speak to friends, friends of friends, coworkers, and most especially those I know to be Christians, because I don’t care who likes it or not around here, what we are discussing aligns well with my faith and should with lots of other men as well.
To be honest, I look back on these exchanges and see what appears to be alot of debate over things actually agreed. Its some of the least efficienct communication Ive ever seen, talking past one another. Its one reason I often take the time to write a short comment like “hey so and so, I agree with you”, otherwise it really does seem we talk past each other alot.
Menck, let me recommend if you havent done so to get EG’s book, its solid.
Thurston, I recall our exchanges well re: the God Men. They came closer then most to getting it right…in fact they are more dangerous for that reason, because by coming closer, they push more of the right primal male buttons, and get men moving under their own power off in the wrong direction. Lump them with Promise Keepers, and go through the list of ministries at churches and see the womens and mens ministries, and what you see is the further institutionalisation of feminsim in church. Yes thurston, male attendance is at about 35%, I know. But in addition to the individuals that comprise the church, Ive chosen to not give up on the church itself. I still go and I still hope. Can you say reformation? Can you say enlightenment?
We are supposed to gather thurston, at least that how I read my Bible. I’m not going to debate your beliefs, I just dont share them…I respect your research and resources, but I’m just keepin that part of me simple, not trying to customize my faith or convince myself I know more or have special insights about it. I don’t fancy myself particularly a strong spiritual leader, and therefore am not really even comfortable in theological debate, save the most basic. But I still think men go to church, and should do so. Maybe the devil(?) is in the details…what is church? what does it mean to go to church? Hell I dont know.
E.G. Thanks. I believe I will.
thurston861,
If you desire a communtiy that honors men and family, then we are not the enemy.
Chill.
To Menck,
Don’t be defensive. You’ve been part of the narrow European materialistic paradigm. You’re starting to break out. Stick around.
Hmmm… Looked at what I just posted. Out of character for me. Not curmudgeonly enough.
I’ll have to think about this a little more.
Llyod.
He does not disagree with me.
HE IS RUNNING FROM THE FACTS!
That means he is not what he says he is. He is a small fish with huge lips.
E.G. Re: comment #40
Thank you for bearing with me. As a neophyte on the matters bandied about on this site, my thinking is only beginning to evolve.
Yes, I fully understand these issues/statistics you reference (I’m one of them) and your conclusions are widely known and all too accurate. I am not terribly optimistic about any of that changing anytime soon, as I talked about above in my first post.
Also, please understand that in large part I am addressing my thoughts to some of the guys who seem to share a world view similar to my own in ways that hopefully make sense to them. If those features of what I am thinking don’t make sense then, by all means, don’t give it a second thought.
My real point was only to elucidate how it looks to me from the inside out to the best of my ability and also to highlight the possible future potential of the churches as a partner. By “churches” I certainly mean the huge numbers of individuals who comprise them as opposed to the organizations. I hold no illusions or unrealistic expectation that churches as organizations are the answer or that non-church men should be expected to be part of that.
I don’t believe that at all. Painful personal experience has taught me otherwise.
For purposes of restoring the culture to stasis, each of us are what we are irrespective of our backgrounds. As such we should just concentrate on the common goals we share, within the environment where we find ourselves.
Just seems to me that, though they are certainly not capable of it now, the many Biblically based communities could eventually be a potential part of the solution somewhere down the line, even though they are part of the problem now. Or perhaps I’m barking at the moon.
Why continue to attack those that disagree with you. Let them be and save the effort for pursuing what you perceive to be effective strategies. I’m about ready to go fishing and let this insanity prevail.
There is an eight to ten pound large mouth bass waiting to offer his advice in the lake over the hill. It’s been a while since we met face to face. Perhaps he has learned something new. The three to five pounders are full of advice but not worth listening to.
Until Rome falls and men/fathers are generally perceived to have value as subsequent to 9-11 little will change. The only answer I see is for Atlas to shrug. Men will be there to rebuild from the debris and women will again be thankful and subordinate.
While the lioness is a ferocious hunter, the lion rules the pride. Only a very foolish lioness would refuse to do the grocery shopping and try and convince the lion to order take out.
The current society will surely fall as it is in defiance of natual laws.
Cons! – you catch this! “The ten states comprising the Bible Belt have a rate of divorce 50% higher than the rest of the nation.”
If 80% of divorces are initiated by Women then that means there is direct correlation of divorce to CHURCH WOMEN.
This correlated to fewer and fewer Men going to church, the emergence of the GOD Men Program.
The fact of the WKKK seems to have some legitimacy. Any research ouf of Missouri must be carefully confrimed and highly suspect of credibility.
Make sure you know your enemy and potential enemies well, their ideology and tactics. Then make your move.
Men out of Church will flock to you with what you know and what EG and I have posted.
Cons, you have a fruitful work ahead of you. MEN want identity, belonging, AND true spirituality that embraces their true function and purpose.
Give them what you know. Women will subsequently flock.
AS SK says – Fearlessly speak the Truth confront the disease.
Llyod -”Nothing has changed” in “35 years” because the movement does not want to expose the ill-logic of the feminists and the history and machinations written of by de Toqueville that prove the 19th Amendment Marginalized Men.
How is Usher a leader when he does nto want to alienate people but says women are driving by emotons in one place, and then defines insane people as ones driven only by their emotions, but that 53% of the voter base that is predisposed to falling within his defintion of insanity should be allowed to vote?
I am supposed to ignore the seminal event that destroyed Men and Family because it will alienate you and Mr. USher from your Useless allies in Legislatures that will not Impeach the Judges for Violation fo the Organic Laws of the United States of America (Title 1 U.S.C.)?
Until proved otherwise I am not you, Mr. Usher, or anyone elses Bitch.
I took on the Whole Patriot Movement, the IRS, the Senate Finance Committee and even had my own writing used by my Movement Rivals posted in a full page ad of a National News Paper to confront the lawlessness of the Executive Branch.
I did that in 5 years, not 19 and not 35. With only a high School Education.
How?
I fearlessly spoke the TRUTH.
How did they stop me. They used a Federal Judge to shut me up. David used his little computer.
The message will not die.
Take your boy toys and go home.
I have indicted your leadership by challenging your credibility. David surrendered it by censorship and now I OWN IT and I will NEVER give it back, because he comes from a family of insane traitors. (It’s like giving Benedict Arnold’s son Command of the U.S. Army in the early 1800’s. )
It is not going to happen, and not going to continue without protest as long as I am here.
So someone Ban me for the Sake of Feminist Marxist Unity and Consensus.
The facts just keep piling up.
The REVOLUTION within MRM begins RIGHT HERE, TODAY.
THe TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, and NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH. SO HELP ME G-D!
To Menck,
I do not solicit the help of evangelical churches or any other religious, political, or non-profit organization. Most organizations are part of the problem. They have their fiefdoms, which in one way or another owe some loyalty to our various forms of government.
Your new to this site so I will restate what I have already written. The rate of divorce among Chirstian clergy is the same as that of their parishoners. The rate of divorce among Christians is the same as for those who have no religious affiliation whatsoever. The ten states comprising the Bible Belt have a rate of divorce 50% higher than the rest of the nation.
As a block they have nothing to contribute to what I am doing. As individduals they do and I appeal to them and all people in my quest for making change. No blocks with Elder George.
This just proves my point, ediited from the thread by Usher, regarding the 40 year rule.
35 years no result. 40 year rule proved.
Legislation no results. Charge of Diseased logic and tactics proved, also the waster of the resources and lives of men.
Corrupt BAR violating the Organic laws of the Nation. Ignorer of the present impediment and the facts, Proved.
So let us just go and keep doing more of the same activities that have netted no results. Yes, that is sane and logical. (Sorry I have to be sarcastic because when I tell the truth it is hateful and disruptive of the useless work at hand. I apologize for destroying everyone’s feminist conventions.)
“No one cares.” That is why there are all of the writers and lurkers here. Yep, there is nobody here.
The men here hate women, yep, that is why all of the men who write here are not a a Homo-porno website lusting after the objects of their affections, young boys.
Your commercial for Usher makes as much sense as the MI GOP chairman trying to get Ron Paul excluded from the Republican Presidiental Debates, who got his Head handed to him on a Plate and had to back down as reported on CNN with Wold Blitzer.
David runs from the Facts and REALITY.
The problem is that 40 years ago there were not enough Men who had opportunity to join this REALITY, and there was no message of REALITY as the fruitlessness of Mr. Usher’s work by your testimony proves.
Heshould really shut up and have his friend shut up too, because you keep giving me ammo.
He censored and Ran. Trying to protect his little Empire that he had a tirade about.
Poor little Ceaser. Wah! Wah! Wah!
Nice little sleight on the Elder line.
To Lloyd,
I used to be on the mailing list of Rich Doyle and involved with Mel fiet’s organization and others around that time. Rich didn’t have a message then and he doesn’t have one now. Neither did any of the other so-called men’s movement organizations.
I wrote previously that there aren’t any men’s movements, just gripe organizations that attempted to work within the system because they didn’t know any better. I have a list alongside of me of 123 men’s organizations–they are all either defunct or impotent.
If there is no understanding of the problem there can be no formula for change. Feminism is not the problem, it is a symptom.
I define the problem and offer a solution. Read my mission statement.
Reply to Elder George comment 31
I’ve been in the movement 20 years and my mentor, Rich Doyle has been in it for 35 plus years. Rich published the Liberator for 20 years and I had thousands of pages on the MensDefense.org site providing online copy of The Liberator articles. No one cares and no one was willing to pay for the years of work.
Sorry but there is little new about men gossiping while Rome burns. The recent explosive blow up and pursuant angry argument with Dave Usher, On Illegal Immigration: “Enact This!”, reminds me of similar arguments 15 years ago. Nothing has changed.
You and I may not always agree with Ush but to engage in name calling is insanity. He has done more than most to benefit men and deserves our respect for his efforts. It is a combination of approaches that will succeed if success is possible.
Thanks to Ush and others Missouri now has some of the most father friendly laws in the nation, but they mean nothing when Missouri also has one of the most corrupt family law bars in the nation. Custody is simply a commodity for sale in Missouri to the one willing to contribute the most to the legal profession.
Male ego and excessive testosterone prevents effective cooperation among thee various factions of the men’s movement. For 15 years Rich and I have been promoting unity but it never happens. See http://www.mensdefense.org/MensMovement.htm and http://www.mensdefense.org/Men’s%20Unity.htm
PS: Elder George sounds like a Mormon missionary name. They all have “ELDER†for a first name.
Nero played his insturment while the portion of the City he wanted destroyed was burned to the ground so he could enlarge his Palace.
Tyrants muse and talk while they destroy their following to consolidate their power, knowingly misdirect attention to the cause of the clamity.
Yep, sound like Mr. Usher compeltely.
Exposing him is not Fiddling.
It is Confrontational Politics.
It is the ACTION of TRUTH and Logic to Confront Dieased thoughts and minds.
Anything short doing that fearlessly and completely is COMPRIMISE with ILL-Logic.
Cons – G-D give no quater. Go forth and do not compromise with the Respectors of Women, those who seek consensus and thus give license to their ILL-Logic because becasue of possession of a Vagina.
Should not be “to” but “against”
Cons – I contradict nothing. the GOD Men program admits that men have lost interest in church and that the Jesus of the Bible is Feminized.
The Church realized that it failed to remarket the Marxist Materialist Christos in the Promise Keeper’s Movement.
They failed to undestand why Men left to begin with, and it being a generation and a half since the seminal event that marginalized men, the men did not understand that the message was false to begin with and flocked in.
Clearly, these Men of the Church, brave enough to examine themselves quickly found opposition to their spiritual progress and righteous indepencence in the eventual result of that message, from where?
The Church and the Women at home, for Work could never impinge on the spiritual issue.
Most stayed married, so the issue is presently, and from your vantage point, the Church.
But where are the Men? You can see the pews. They are not there.
The Church used to be the meeting place of government, close your eyes imagine it teh Tri point hats and muskets in the vestibule, and then look now at the church. The Men and the substance is gone, it is nothing but a one man circus now. Materialistic and Marxist.
(Of course I speak of the most extreme.)
EG’s point is the same. The REAL MEN are not at the Church. They are out wandering about like free radicals looking for a proper bond.
GOD MEN got my attention, but your experience shows they missed an important point (this is precisely where we met), their existence shows there is a LOST market for your point that they are missing.
The Point is made by you that they have to return home to the diseased minds and logic of their women who are criminals and terrorists who use the HOLY SPIRIT as their justification for breaking their marriage vows because the Bible does not matter.
Make the Point Cons, wherever you are, make the point, they will come. (hey! didn’t EG say this?)
Those within the Churches that awaken will either save the Body, or the Body will be so diseased that ALL MEN leave it after hearing your message, and it will die completely. There will be no further contention against it, it will be dead.
EG’s thesis is that the Women will follow where the MEN go, it will be made NEW, by MEN.
I hope that the Talmudic Law revealing the Right of a Woman to her Man, when inverted is useful direct evidence for your indictment of the diseased thought that is pervasive of Women making War against Men and their Marriages as Proverbs explains that foolish and simple (short sighted emotional) Women tear down their own homes.
You understand why Men have left the Church, it is the Placate the Women Hour. Do not give the WORD in its full force. Don’t make her mad.
Neither will I placate Women on the 19th Amendment by denying history and facts like de Toqueville’s observations of France and EG’s statements of Rome and Greece.
That is no different than being that Preacher. It is diseased and insane rebellion to the truth.
SK – in response to your point I wrote a great history lesson which was seconds from posting, but G-D saw fit to erase it all.
It was strong and in no uncertain terms. So I take it that I am not to reveal what I know to people who do not have the capacity to understand, for it will only alienate them from me and the truth.
My words and historical evidences have so far been a waste if you have not been moved to the point of your recent posting.
Obviously, the truth is more awful than you can imagine. Yet, G-D is no respecter of Men, all diseased logic is equally punished.
Finally, if you want to follow and give accolades to a man who censors speech and is all concerned about his Empire over the Truth and Facts, good for you.
I will not be the BITCH of a spy and agent provocateur.
If that makes me not ungentlemanly, so be it.
I would prefer the label of Iconoclastic Barbarian as my Merovingian Blood Line dictates, than be David Usher’s fool.
We Cajun’s, we remember long and hard. Forget only in the instance of quicksand and Alzheimer’s.
I will speak and indict pursuant to evidence.
To E.G.: Thanks for your friendly welcome, sir. I appreciate the substance of your comments and, with a few reservations and a bit of pathos, I find I am compelled to agree with you. Western culture is decadent and can be reasonably assumed to be in its final throes. The evidence is all around us and manifests itself in the nebulous sense of insecurity and lack of faith in the future that is universally felt gnawing at people’s innards.
Writing from the perspective of one within the church, it is clear that the effective leadership of men has the power and potential to effect great change. (This can be denied only by children, fools, and orthodox feminists.) Church leaders are uniquely positioned to provide the kind of leadership you are describing.
I stated in a different thread a while back that it has seemed to me that evangelical churches could be the natural ally of those working to reverse the corrosive trends of feminism. I still believe this to be true but only possible if the dots are fully and clearly connected on some grand scale for the various Christian communities, whose worldview tends toward the more traditional understanding of male and female differences and roles. If the true nature of the threat of feminist hostility and chaos is presented with honesty, coherence and a little rhetorical force I believe it would be possible to see an energized grass roots reaction.
The traditional understanding of roles I refer to are fundamentally defined by the biblical portrayals of men and women, which are not Western at all in their true essence. They are Near Eastern Oriental and a good deal healthier and more permanent than what we currently practice.
Am I contradicting myself from my comments in my above post? Not necessarily…
conservativation — This brings me to your point about not giving up on the churches. You are absolutely correct and I sincerely hope I didn’t give the impression that we should in any way abandon being the “salt of the earth”. My thoughts were more global and in the vein of observing trends, possibly inevitable ones, brought about by surrender to the corruption of the surrounding culture. (But, there will always be a remnant.)
So, your points about working within the churches and among those who are church affiliated are the way to go, regardless. Especially in view rapid pace of the cultural disintegration all around us.
There is clearly a cadre of church affilitated men here. There are also men of numerous other backgrounds, beliefs, and world views. No matter. Some have a gift for the political sphere, others academia, some just thinking out loud, still others perhaps only their place of employment. Everybody takes action in their own sphere of influence and for church-goers this just happens to be ours. Therefore, as you have already concluded, the beauty of it is that if such a shift in thinking and teaching ever actually does take hold in the churches it will become a force to be reckoned with in the broader dynamics of the culture.
To summarize, the greater goals of the disparate groups among us are the same — the restoration of some semblance of cultural sanity and stability not only for our sakes but for our kids and grandkids.
That should always be the focus.
Close Lloyd. Adversity will motivate men to regain their rightful poistion. Until men are motivated nothing will happen. I am putting forth effort to motivate. The time is now. The populace is ready. They are thirsting for change.
It’s time to act.
Does anyone think Nero would have fiddled while Rome burned if he had the ability to change the outcome? The wisdom acquired with age and a lifetime of observations may simple be our curse. Ignorance is bliss and obsessing on things we can not change too often leads weak men to dependent addictions. We must live with faith.
“The Lord works from the inside out. The world works from the outside in. The world would take the people out of the slums. Christ takes the slums out of people, and then they take themselves out of the slums. The world would mold men by changing their environment. Christ changes men, who then change their environment. The world would shape human behavior, but Christ can change human nature.†– Ezra Taft Benson
As long as the apparent affluent American society can sustain itself little will change and old men will do little other then than gossip. Perhaps we must simply trust in God’s natural laws that have been repeatedly demonstrated through out history.
Democracy’s 200 year cycle:
From bondage to spiritual faith.
From faith to great courage.
From courage to liberty.
From liberty to abundance.
From abundance to complacency.
From complacency to selfishness.
From selfishness to apathy.
From apathy to dependency.
And from dependency back again into bondage.
History is just repeating itself and the only thing that will restore man to his rightful position is great adversity. We are victims of our over civilized creation.
To conservativation,
There you go lint picking again. Are you convinced of my message? If so go and talk to somenone else about it. You will find there are multitudes out there who want to hear it. That’s all that has to be done.
I sold my book to a complete stranger at a bus stop. I sold my information booklets to a complete stranger on the subway. Who’s talking about manhood and family and willing to support it? Who? You be the one and you’ll get a response.
Don’t talk about it–do it.
And have something to give the person to show that you have an organization behind you. Do it.
Menck:
As to the church changing from within, I would split hairs a little. You are correct for sure in that society drags the church along with it. You are also correct that only crisis will change the church from within. Here and there exist a handful of churches that have it correct mostly, and they are usually in strip malls with 25 members. However those tend to get off in other directions, like manifestations on Sudays such as “slain in the spirit” and speaking in tongues being the focus of their worship…I think that also misses the mark big time. So what to do.
As an aside, I reject the comment from thurston that “men don’t go to church” I’ll not belabor it, but in all the studies you do thurston surely you see how you’ve contradicted core doctrine with that statement…I’m not going to get sidetracked in that debate.
I’m not sure giving up on the church is a good thing. Society would need institution(s) even amidst and after crumbling. Survey the landscape. Would we be better off working with politicians? Maybe as bandaids. Better off working with political parties? I think not. With the secular world? Clearly not. Among ONLY converts with eyes already open? Ok but doesn’t a movement imply growth and conversion? From where does one pluck those potential new movers? By elimination I came back to those affiliated with churches, not necessarily “the” church itself.
Reasoning becomes circular when we berate ourselves for gossiping, and admonish one another to act, then suggest an action or at least forum in which one would act, then shoot that down as unrealistic, then in discussing why its unrealistic, start berating ourselves for gossiping again.
Makes me dizzy.
thurst…i respect and admire youre learned acumen…
But why must you attack david…it makes no sense to me????
State youre case with him, leave it at that..and then start to make change on youre own terms, and the fashion you see fit..
David has turned on the lights to mens studies for many people..
he has helped introduce many people to another viewpoint..and from their they embrace their own paths.
youre viewpoint on the 19th amendment are youre own..its yours own it and live by it..
David is a man with his feet firmly rooted in mens studies, and also firmly rooted in the realities of America..
If you start to bring more people to the table than David…then youre voice will be heard more. David has introduced thousands..and those he introduces are then free to learn on their own, and choose their own paths…but the introduction piece is critical…
To Menck,
Thanks for joining us. Look forward to your future comments.
Leadership has to come from men. Hanging Bibles or other religious texts around does not change anything. Men who read these texts and live their lives to the best of their understanding and ability change things.
We are witnessing the final destruction of Western society and all that it encompasses. When men lost their autority in ancient Greece society disintegrated into lustful and debaucherous activities. When men lost their authority in Rome it too disintegrated into a self-indulgent society. When men lost their virility in Spain it too disintegrated and had its influence disappear from the world stage. Now that the entire European culture from one end of Europe to the other and including America, has lost its masculinity it is crumbling. I have often said that the one thing to be learned from history is that nobody learns from history. What is happening to America is not unusual or unique, it keeps happening. Now we are getting close to the final throes of Western society, and what do we do about it? Gossip. That’s why we are in the final throes. We can’t act. anymore.
Cons, Men do not go to church. Women do.
Men need an understanding why their spirit is not lead nor fed there.
They will do the rebuilding from the outside in.
Help them understand why they are not there, and that the minds of teh women within are diseased, filled with ill-logic because teh Preacher is too afraid of being unpopular with the general public to speak the truth and facts of what is going on around them.
I hit EG’s response pretty close did I not?
ALSO. That should be seen as a response to you SK.
There is no half way on your Rights SK, so do not think that there will be half way on mine.
There is no half way in making consensus with insane people. SO there is no half way to negotiate with the vast majority of the public.
This is about REBUILDING Society, not savng the diseased minds. They have to save themselves,
Re read your posts here in light of me being censored here for being a no comprimise kind of guy and see your inconsistencies SK.
Make up your mind, you were the one who started me down the road of confrontation with Usher.
conservativation, Denis, SK… Have been following your points. My observation is that the churches, for all the rhetoric about “separation” in certain senses from the general trends of society, really just track exactly what is happening in the general culture (with some minor healthy deviations).
I do not wish at all to purvey pessimism, but I think a realistic view would suggest that absolutely nothing of any significance is likely to change in the believing communities until some certain threshold of crisis is reached which forces church leaders and laymen to make a profound reappraisal of these issues.
I wish I could see it in different terms but after thirty years in the church that’s how it looks from where I stand. Perhaps reaching young people who are training for formal ministry would be a way to expedite the process, but gaining acceptance within the seminaries and other training institutions for the type of information needed to achieve this would be a major hurdle to clear.
So, my belief is that there will probably have to be a critical mass of crisis that eventually forces the issue before anything changes in the churches and they become willing to look honestly at the problems of feminism and the damaging surreptitious dispossession of men (and families) that it has spawned.
I go away for a few hours and look what happens.
Regarding the comments pertaining to God, the records of Men’s Action to Rebuild Society indicate that we are spiritually based and gender oriented. I do not believe in being specific about a relgion in making social change. To me a society with religious freedom has a Church on one corner, a Mosque on another, a Temple on the third, and a meeting place for athiests on the fourth. There should not be compunction in relgion. Let each man worship God as he understands it.
Society needs to be secular in the sense of not having one particular religion, but it most definitely needs a spiritual orientation. Bringing life into this world and nurturing it helps to develop that spirituality.
I apologize denis if I jumbled posts and assigned something incorrect to you.
in a society that wants to violently silence men…the only men who have the courage to speak out, are the men of god. A man cannot have fear and faith in his heart at the same time…A man who has fear, has no faith.
“But it doesnt compute with me that Godly men, regardless in an organized church or official groups, that Godly men cannot effect change.”
Where have I said this?
Good point scott, well illustrated, practical etc. Snake handlers can preach, with passion, but most people don’t look around the yard for one to carress.
thurston…
May i suggest that you refine youre zelousness..and that might mean tempering youre rhetoric to meet the average public half way with youre message. Its simply a matter of what measures are effective, and what measures are impotent and ineffective…
I think RAY BLUMHORSTS actions of dragging around a huge billboard behind his truck is real action …
The introduction of mens studies should be a little tempered…
going around saying we need to repeal the 19th amendment is simply inneffective.but saying men in 1920 died 1 year earlier than women, and are now dying 10 years earlier…now thats an effective eye openner introduction.
Those are agreeable comments, I would say the potential slide exists as evidenced by Promise Keepers, and the church is nearly hopelessly femin ised. But it doesnt compute with me that Godly men, regardless in an organized church or official groups, that Godly men cannot effect change.
We must….less is folly.
conservativation-
I agree that the church has to change. I believe that men in the MRM ought to bring Godly values with them (both as a source of strength AND direction) but I think a MRM that is part of a religious movement is doomed to failure (e.g., The Promise Keepers became chivalrous….where are they now?). Plus, it can break down into it’s own version of tribalism. Feminism has foisted it’s witchcraft and damage for decades on the U.S. and religion has had close to zero effect on feminism’s expansive influence. It has been in a defensive mode and has slowly caved in the entire time. Therefore, I have little faith that a MRM could exert itself through religion. I think good men ought to lead the movement, but also aggressive men, men such as King David. The church has been politically corrected. False prophets are always a big danger. But so is a man in charge without a compass setting him right. We come from a Judeo-Christian nation. We know what is right. We ought not wear it on our sleeve however.
denis, I was glad to read your post, I suspect you see things at least similar to me, that being that our faith is unshakable, that we KNOW where strength originates, and that in my opinion (maybe we differ here) it is within the church that changes need start. What more dedicated group, in theory, than those who subscribe to the gospel and how we must give our lives to find them? The power, the real power, long term abiding power, resides in the supernatural. Other power, patriarchy included in then human plane, is transient, or we wouldnt be where we are in the first place. Lets face it, man’s eternal nature is a drive in and of itself, and clearfly a worthy one. In my humble opinion, and I do mean humble on this point, a genaral sort of spirituality, a karma, a zen, a meditative feeling, that is not going to motivate man. It is a step in the right direction, a big one, to admit we persist, we go on past death, but why?
Enough of that, things needd be set right, set right by men who see something bigger then self, men who see an order established by someone/something greater, something great. Its a sad testament really, but its the mens Bible study groups who have the shim in allowing the Light to peer inside. the door can slam open, and then things align well with the patriarcy, for God is the Father.
Then Denis…look at the Bible.
What are Yeshua (aka Jesus) first words quoted in the record?
“Woman, what does this have to do with me?”
What about the words to the ‘easy’ woman at the well? Another question.
There is your Chivalry, preacticed from a position of seperation, without self-seeking or recognition, alterior motives, without giving any advantage or sympathy.
Just recognizing the other human being. Then move on.
Cons – all EG could do is tell you there is not a culture you need to adopt, but a logic, to replace an Ill-logic.
Your relationship with the G-D of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the only way that you will be convinced of any ill-logic within you, and EG can only really help you get a direction to pursue a replacement.
When you get to the final TRUTH of TRUTHs (which happens to be G-D) there in no way to define it (HIM). That Truth just is, and your Rights as a Man just ARE, and your command of your life and Choices as a MAN is just your RIGHT.
The fact that you will subject that Crown to G-D is your business, and a most healthy decision. But you have to hold the Crown first before you can lay it before the Throne. (Revelations – the 144 were given Crowns, and then laid it at the feet of the Lamb slain since the beginning of Time).
What else can EG say that is not an offense to your RIGHTS as an independent Man?
For you the race is over. You get it. you are not a prop anymore, you are center stage.
The men here do not get it, as few dare comment on my words, because they are afraid of the Truth and the Facts, and want Rights given to them by the State to squander. But the State did not create their Rights, they or their Grandparents gave them up.
The horse being dead is your circumstance, you are moving on to intelligent action.
Mike-
your comment about “is impossible to have a noble patriarchy as you describe without first granting each man his individual relationship with God Almighty.” is a valid one. I’m an advocate of this view myself. The problem is that most of those who claim to have a relationship with God (and do in fact do so in my view) are on the other side of the coin with the feminists, and have done absolutely NOTHING in defense of men and fatherhood. Even their solutions to today’s problems put all or much of the blame on men, and therefore these solutions are yet again at the expense of men. I have heard, and find the notion that an aggressive posture by men’s groups is “doomed to failure just like feminism” laughable. Feminism has been supremely successful in it’s goals. It’s just that it’s success has put a heavy cost on men. I’m all for a noble patriarchy based on each man’s relationship with God, but there is a fine line here with chivalry which is easily prone to corruption and institutionalized sexism by men against other men. A fair form of chivalry (to men that is) is highly unstable and has never existed.
Mike, great points that have left me wary of EG’s comments.
What I come to understand from his response Cons is that EG is not here to change our Faith or Religion, but to help us see our actual spirituality as Men within his own Religion (much like the doctrine of the Original Masons who Patriarchically connected in the Lodge under Eccumenical terms), because when we understand our authority (as Adam had dominion) as Men and assert it our Faith becomes powerful and life is balanced once again.
Since EG already addessed spirituality, that building block was posted here a few months ago.
Action as everyone here and EG pinted out, is first within.
Then all subsequent action is to make it real in your choices and activities daily, your vocabulary.
Then there is the third step of manifesting in a CONFRONTATION (hate that word, most Men do) with the Statist Government and mentailty that displays the diseased thought and infringes on your rights.
Thus, Constructive Defiance is the next step. Knowing your Rights of Man, speaking them, asserting them, and no surrendering them.
Teaching others to do likewise.
Final step is the Confederation of Men who have not surrendered and are mvoing on to the point that a Second Society exists and undermines the value of the diseased establishment.
Remember Mike, G-D is at the First step, so the strength or weakness of your first step will dictate who will subscribe to your logic and philosophy thus garnering you influence and a position as a Leader.
It is only Right that our individual visions co-exist and compete to keep those who listen to us from Cultic Stalinist Cells.
A Brother is born for adversity, Iron sharpens Iron, Debate and Discuss, It makes you strong, do not run from facts, and do not hate the opposing view within the person who tomorrow may have the gift of knowledge that you are missing.
Healthy contention makes us stronger.
Somewhere along the way, Patriarchy gave way to unhealthy contention that visibly and naked threatened the Role of Men.
Hmmmm! What pray tell could that have been?! I am not allowed to say or I am a nut!
Better to be disparaged by ILL-logic than not stand up and testify to teh Truth!
The 19th Amendment!
There is no way we will ever overturn the ILL-logic of Women until we allow our brothers to overturn the ILL-Logic in their hearts first.
Everything else is vanity.
SK – I wanted to get the clear word out, but DRU said I was a nut.
The Ron Paul campaign has done more for him than the Millions of Dollars taht the others are spending to allege to be front runners,
How?
It begins with places like this.
Mike:
What you’ve stated about the absence of even something as multiculturally appealing as AA’s “higher power” , let alone a Judeo Christian God, represents the last slat in the jump for me to get over.
I don’t question the need for more spirituality.
I don’t question the need for family, even patriarchy.
I don’t question the corrupting power of the state.
I don’t question the insidiousness of materialism.
and so on…
I just continue to work at reconciling God and His call to action(s) to this, and I keep trying to see it as being so simple as just the difference between western and non western thought or paradigm.
The dead horse has been beaten into a rug.
One thing I notice here is that it is hard as hell to convince some people that you agree with them. No matter how I word myself, anything I say beyond “yes I agree 100%” is misconstrued…bizarre in a way.
with legions of un-educated, indoctinated men to fight against us… I believe the first order of business is to get the facts out….
cast some light into the darkness..and the darkness disappears…
refer people to different web sites for info…
ride around in youre truck with a huge sign like ray does..
hand out leaflets..
there are many ways to get out the message if the main stream media continues to deny us….
Perception is itself a form of action, though I won’t trouble the point beyond that.
Here is the money quote:
One part of the point is unassailable: the government has used its power to act as a surrogate “father” in the lives of families across the land.
EG has thus rightfully called the government in this regard a ‘false idol’.
But the idol of ‘Patriarchy’ is held out as a solution, while no mention of the “Supreme Authority” is made at all. In using terms like ‘Patriarchy’, it seems creative descriptions of humanist concepts deserve the status of archetypes, but God is never mentioned even in a whisper.
Coupled with the dramatic call for “action” on the part of others, the absence of any unifying ideals in this call to arms leaves me troubled – or at least unmoved.
In my view it is impossible to have a noble patriarchy as you describe without first granting each man his individual relationship with God Almighty.
The Protestant Reformation would be a case in point, imo.
The shared foundatinal belief is that we are MEN, edowed by our Creator with Certain unalienable Rights.
That a government was formed to adminsitrate in our Society, but never touch those Rights.
Under lies of Legislation and Judicial Sophistry (as Winston Churchill denounced and stated officials who do such things are to have them and their whole familes sexed) the State has STOLEN the Rights of Man under the illogical excuse of protecting Women, for every issue they have ever presented from Temprence to Today, was a Lie to destroy Men and their Rights.
That is what binds us together against the Treasonous State that Alexis deTocqueville wrote of.
We ARE MEN, and we possess the Rights of Man.
We ARE the People, and we are the sole Righteous Depository of those Ancient Rights.
Just like the Chairman of the MI GOP eating crow after he was told last week to not stand in Ron Paul’s way or he will have no Party, WE MEN are not going to ask the Theives who stole our Rights and Nation for it Back, we will TAKE it back by rejecting and publicly exposing its Ill-gotten Authority. (Thank You Alexis)
Welcome to Constructive Defiance.
This Chapter in History will be called “Blowback”.
Thank you Elder.
Your words and those of Alexis de Tocqueville prove plainly my point, that I have yelled here for about 24 hours, with greater certainty.
From the beginning you rattled my cage and moved down the line, sparing your words.
I will soon buy your materials, but I hope that I get a better understanding of the implementation than Cons did. Nevertheless, the embracing of the spiritual, and the rejection of the State and Materialsim being the solution addressed a deeper hypocriscy that has helped me find greater strength to take on what will come.
People are generally frightened with my convictions and sense of purpose. Hell! They scare me too!
What is right is right, and usually it is the hardest thing in the world, moreso now than it has ever been.
After this past 24 hour cycle, I am ready for the Read of your work. The General Concepts have been proven here.
I can see who the real teacher is.
To Conservativation,
I never suggested that we adopt the Eastern culture but merely suggest that we learn from it. I recently wrote that our present civilization started between the Nile and Tigris-Euprates Rivers and that this area was a conjoining of three contintental influences. Each continental influence is incomplete unto itself and needs the input of the other two to become whole.
My emphasis is that the material world of the West has predominated and we have lost the spirituality of the East and the family culture of Africa.
Your mind needs a kneejerk reaction to help pull you out of the narrow Western materialistic paradigm. Wherever Western man went he was welcomed and accepted. He in turn destroyed the culture of those very peoples who befreinded him and then ostracised them intheir own lands.
Now Western man’s own way of life is crumbling and he can’t imagine why.
The shared foundatinal belief that you ask for and that I offer is that the patriarchal way of like is natural to the universe. Once understood, I think it will be an excellent rallying point, it already is. I’ve tested different markets.
I’m leaving now and won’t be back for about six hours. I can explain more then if you need it.
“We are like a group of women with an issue to be resolved and no men available to resolve it. Talk, talk, and talk.”
EXACTLY
MND today reminds me of a cross between a fever swamp and an Evangelical version of The View (we even have a Rosie).
Greetings George:
As you and I have discussed I recommend a slight change in tact, not necessarily message, and I bring my comment here because I’m interested in whether or not people care enough to act, and if they agree that the continued disparaging of “western” ideals, even if correct, is perhaps not helpful as presented in bringing capable men into the fray.
Though not analogous at all, feminism holds non-western thought in something of a high regard compared to western ideals…or at least I’d say they think they do…having that self image of the learned and higher in brow than the rest of us that feminists regularly do. Since 99.9 % of the men here see feminism in one or another form as the problem, even this loose and apparent commonality with them can be a barrier to agreement among men who in fact really do agree with you. Perception in so mnay cases in reality.
One characteristic of western vs. eastern thought, to my mind, is the western tendency (contrary to what may be happening here on the site) to DO things, and at least in business I find it immeasurably frustrating in dealing with non-western cultures and how they can analyse until they paralyse. The eastern or non western cultures that were doers with urgency and immediacy were at the hands of dictators, a condition that you caution western nations can be headed to as a result of pendulum overswing.
Other aspects I see of non western thought MAY be a deeper sense of the spiritual? And there is little doubt a deeper sense of family and as you would hasten to point out, the patriarchy. But for all this contention that western thought as a macro concept is to blame (and I do not refute that) I need to better understand how non-western thought manifests in a more solid society. I see from my own experiences that it can and does, I’m just interested in the aspects of western vs. non western that are causal.
Don’t confuse my questions with gossiping. I’m pointing out what I think can be a red flag when you begin to simply proclaim the inferiority of ones entire foundational thought processes, the “western” mind…my mind…will initially kneejerk against it just simply because.
To grow a movement requires there to be a shared something in the group that copmprises the movement. In some cases it can be shared pain…like here, but there need be some shared foundational beliefs, and diverse but shared levels of talent and enthusiasm. I don’t know that it is a huge motivator of groups to start with a fundamental tenet being that our way of thinking is markedly inferior, and then not explain why a little better.
I’ve read the book, the booklets, and all your materials, so I know you are up to the task of answering. I didn’t get the answer clearly from all the reading.
Greetings George:
As you and I have discussed I recommend a slight change in tact, not necessarily message, and I bring my comment here because I’m interested in whether or not people care enough to act, and if they agree that the continued disparaging of “western” ideals, even if correct, is perhaps not helpful as presented in bringing capable men into the fray.
Though not analogous at all, feminism holds non-western thought in something of a high regard compared to western ideals…or at least I’d say they think they do…having that self image of the learned and higher in brow than the rest of us that feminists regularly do. Since 99.9 % of the men here see feminism in one or another form as the problem, even this loose and apparent commonality with them can be a barrier to agreement among men who in fact really do agree with you. Perception in so mnay cases in reality.
One characteristic of western vs. eastern thought, to my mind, is the western tendency (contrary to what may be happening here on the site) to DO things, and at least in business I find it immeasurably frustrating in dealing with non-western cultures and how they can analyse until they paralyse. The eastern or non western cultures that were doers with urgency and immediacy were at the hands of dictators, a condition that you caution western nations can be headed to as a result of pendulum overswing.
Other aspects I see of non western thought MAY be a deeper sense of the spiritual? And there is little doubt a deeper sense of family and as you would hasten to point out, the patriarchy. But for all this contention that western thought as a macro concept is to blame (and I do not refute that) I need to better understand how non-western thought manifests in a more solid society. I see from my own experiences that it can and does, I’m just interested in the aspects of western vs. non western that are causal.
Don’t confuse my questions with gossiping. I’m pointing out what I think can be a red flag when you begin to simply proclaim the inferiority of ones entire foundational thought processes, the “western” mind…my mind…will initially kneejerk against it just simply because.
To grow a movement requires there to be a shared something in the group that copmprises the movement. In some cases it can be shared pain…like here, but there need be some shared foundational beliefs, and diverse but shared levels of talent and enthusiasm. I don’t know that it is a huge motivator of groups to start with a fundamental tenet being that our way of thinking is markedly inferior, and then not explain why a little better.
I’ve read the book, the booklets, and all your materials, so I know you are up to the task of answering. I didn’t get the answer clearly from all the reading.