Texas Mother Murders Her 3 Children–and It’s Ex-Boyfriend’s Fault?!

2007-05-30
By

Gilberta Estrada hung her four small daughters, three of whom died–and it’s her ex-boyfriend’s fault?! For example, Christian Newswire just issued the press release “Victim of Domestic Violence Hangs Self and Four Daughters” in which they claim:

“Domestic Violence is a destroyer. It is believed that Gilberta Estrada hanged herself-after hanging her four young daughters first. A police investigation hopes to confirm the tragic facts of this case. An already confirmed fact is that Estrada was a victim of domestic violence. The Associated Press reports that she had previously obtained a restraining order against the father of one or more of her children. Can we rule out the possibility that domestic violence, or the threat of continued domestic violence, was a contributing factor to the depression Estrada was reported to be experiencing and the decision to end her life and the lives of her children?”

Even if Estrada were a victim of domestic violence, it wouldn’t come within a mile of excusing or explaining her horrendous crime. But it is in no way an “already confirmed fact that Estrada was a victim of domestic violence.” Estrada got a temporary restraining order against her ex-boyfriend Gregorio Frayre Rodriguez. While to outsiders this may sound impressive, it is, in fact, absolutely meaningless.

According to Elaine Epstein, former president of the Massachusetts Women’s Bar Association, restraining orders are doled out “like candy” to “virtually all who apply,” and that “in virtually all cases, no notice, meaningful hearing, or impartial weighing of evidence is to be had.”

Restraining orders are generally done ex parte, without the accused’s knowledge and with no opportunity afforded for him to defend himself. When an order is issued, the man is booted out of his own home and can even be jailed if he tries to contact his own children. Despite these grave effects, many courts grant restraining orders to practically any woman who applies. Research shows that these orders often do not even involve an allegation of violence. Usually all that’s needed is a claim that the person to be restrained “acted in a way that scared me” or was “verbally abusive”—what’s known as “shout at your spouse, lose your house.”

A restrained person does have the opportunity to contest the orders at a hearing a couple of weeks later. However, these proceedings are often just a formality for which no more than 15 minutes are generally allotted. In fact, the State of California’s website gives the following advice for men who are contesting restraining orders:

“Practice saying why you disagree with the charges. Do not take more than three minutes to say what you disagree with. You can bring witnesses or documents that support your case, but the judge may not have enough time to talk to the witnesses.”

One study of restraining orders published in the Journal of Family Violence found that 94% of those brought by women in one Massachusetts district were extended.

Many if not most domestic violence restraining orders are simply tactical maneuvers designed to gain advantage in high stakes family law proceedings. The Illinois Bar Journal calls the orders “part of the gamesmanship of divorce.”

A recent article in the Family Law News, the official publication of the State Bar of California Family Law Section, explains that the Bar is concerned that “protective orders are increasingly being used in family law cases to help one side jockey for an advantage in child custody.” The authors note that protective orders are “almost routinely issued by the court in family law proceedings even when there is relatively meager evidence and usually without notice to the restrained person….it is troubling that they appear to be sought more and more frequently for retaliation and litigation purposes.”

The restraining order against Rodriguez was only temporary, and was probably issued ex parte. Yes, it’s certainly possible that Estrada may have been a victim of domestic violence, and I’m sure her family, friends and defenders will try to portray her as such. However, as of right now, we have no credible evidence that she was a victim of domestic violence. And even if they did have a violent relationship, it may have been Estrada who was solely or largely responsible for that violence. After all, while we have no proof of any wrongdoing by Rodriguez, we do have absolute proof that Estrada was violent and mentally disturbed.

The Associated Press  story is Mother hangs herself, 4 children; infant found alive.

Help for Los Angeles/Ventura County Dads
Peter M. Walzer, Certified Family Law Specialist
www.California-Divorce.com
563 views

  • thurston861

    Looks like you are on track on this one.

    No sensationalism. no petty substance. Plainly outside of the domestic fray.

    What is missing is the repetition of the research and stats on Mother’s being more likely to kill their children than Fathers.

    Now could that be due to the fact that when people get overly emotional, some seemingly sane people in such states go over the edge and do such things?

    Could it be due to the fact that Women are emotional creatures?

    Could it be that they are more apt to ill-logical action?

    Or is there just something in the water in Texas?

    If so why is it not effecting the Males?

    So it goes back to Women. (This particular) Women’s insanity driving obviously at least two men away, who, had one been present, would have probably not been equaly insane and emotional at the same time and stopped this massacre.

    Is that why Men are perceived as being physically stronger than women, to help them get and keep a grip? (Used to tell my Autistic daughter when she was getting emotional and carrying on “GET A GRIP”. It did not take long that she knew when she was going over board and I would just give her a look of absurdity and she would say it to herself.) (ouch! memories hurt!)

    Repeat the stats and studies. THe Marxists used lies and false studies and repetition to brain wash, Men must un-brainwash. Repetition….every opportunity must be used.

  • Robert Stevens

    It is simple really those that control the media , can NEVER…….NEVER hold the woman accountable. It does not matter what she did, they just don’t hold them accountable. They have to find some way to put the blame on a man. No matter how far removed he maybe.
    The reason is simple, the system has profited off the increasingly irresponsible behavior of women. Why.. if they suddenly starting making them answer for for what they do, then the whole God Awful Racket might fall apart. There would be no problem for the state to solve. Women might start understanding that “equality” has a downside and that there is no way to get around it.
    That is God’s Universe wrong is wrong and no matter how pretty and politically correct you try and make it, it is still wrong.
    That you will answer for it and the more you kick and scream and try to dodge it, the worse the final punishment will be .
    I for one will laugh my ass off when this happens, then sit a drink a cold beer. I will then say thank you God, there is justice in the universe , no matter how the government terrorist try to screw it up.

  • Joi

    “Gilberta Estrada hung her four small daughters, three of whom died–and it’s her ex-boyfriend’s fault?! For example, Christian Newswire just issued the press release “Victim of Domestic Violence Hangs Self and Four Daughters” in which they claim:”

    I’m not surprised… This is due to “victim hood” being feminist Holy Writ.
    Any woman whom commits a criminal act simply has to claim the status of “victim.” Once she is a “victim” she is no longer a “criminal” and she is worthy of sympathy and entitlements. This is “why” women whom commit crimes claim battered woman syndrome or some other such thing and get off with light sentences or acquittalall together.

  • thurston861

    But Joi, this one got left alone just like Women believe she should have been!

    Now she and some of her kids are dead.

    She did get away with it. She cannot be a criminal if she is dead. Becasue no mother would ever harm her children.

    So it must be some evil man out there lurking around.

    But she had children by three men. Jsut like which one is the Father? Which one is the Mass Murderer?

    No Women never commit mass murder. That girl in England where the school shooting started in 1979. Yates. No! Never happened!

    I think it was a conspiricy of all three Fathers. They all three conspired to make her fear for her life so terribly that she had to go take it, and those of her children.

    Yep! A new Legal Term and Crime Malicide (Derrived from Male and Malice).
    - Where a man causes the Female to kill herself and/or her children by without overt command, words, suggestons, or deeds, while simultaneously denied access to and contatct with the Female and children by Court Order. A True Thought Crime. Burden of Proof on the Male in all cases, he must prove that he did not think. Effictive Defense: All Feminists know that Men only act, they do not think. Immediate dismissal of charges.

  • scottfree

    write to this news service newsdesk@christiannewswire.com

    let them know the truth of these matters. The feminist ideology has infiltrated
    the churches and causes much havoc. I for have taken a stand against such and will continue so. We all know domestic violence is a 2 way street, others
    are woefully ignorant or stupid (they know better but don’t do better). I informed them of some sites to search to be better informed. But take a few minutes to write to them, be honest but not crude. Many in the churches don’t know, but some are learning.

  • marie11385

    I could tell you dont know anything about abuse and domestic violence. I asked for a restriction order against my kids father because he tried to strangle me so it was not candy for me but my life.

    I think you all havent had time to look at the reports and reasons why she requested custody and the order. He tried to kill her with a knife, he strangled her and he forced her to have sex and that doesnt even top the emotional abuse she went through. That man is a monster.

    I even had thoughts of killing my kids father in his sleep because I just couldnt find a way out. He was controlling me in every way and I felt like I was going crazy until one day he wouldnt let me leave and he took the kids in the room and then came back out. He threw me in the ground and then picked me up from my hair and put me against the wall and grabbed my neck and started to strangle me. I couldnt catch my breath and some how I got free and called out for the kids and kept non telling them to run outside and he followed us and took the car keys and then he threw them back at me because he thought he had so much control that I was not going to do anything but I did and I called the police. When the police got there he was cooking popcorn and getting ready to watch a movie.

    Maybe if the police would have listen to her a bit closer and the Judge would have grant her full custody and that way her or her daughters wouldnt have to see that monster again, maybe this wouldnt have happened.

    I personally think she didnt do it. I think that bastard did it. Her feet were touching the ground. No matter how bad a person wants to kill her self, in desperation of the lack of air she would have stand up on the ground. I just cant see a person suffocating and still folding her legs up like the police thinks. Another thing, I work as a Manager for a Mobile Home Park and I also used to sale Mobile Homes and anyone is free to try this and test my theory but in a Mobile Home the windows are very easy to shut close even from the outside. If you leave the house through a window and then just pull the the window down it will shut. Have the police checked all windows, have they dusted for prints, the door could have been locked from the inside but that does not mean she did it, anyone could have escaped through any where else.

    I just dont see this mother who was trying to fight for custody of her children to protect them from the Monster of a father they had and obviousley she didnt want to die, she was protecting her and her children from this maniac. I just dont see her looking at her liitle girls gasp for air and dangling trying to brake loose while she hangs herself and then holds her legs up to hang herself patientley.

    If she did it I know her emotions dont excuse not giving her liitle girls a chance in life but maybe the Judges and all this big people sitting in this big chairs should think a bit more about the actions that they take with peoples lifes. I could guarantee anything that the bastard of husband she had feels and knows part of it was his fault for not being a good enough man and not knowing how to appreciate a family…

  • marie11385

    Glenn Sacks,
    I have gone through abuse and most of the time all he had to hear was my breathing for him to just turn around and make my day turn into hell.

    How do you have the guts to speak about this lady like this if you were not walking her shoes… The monster of a man she had never filed anything against her or said she was abusive. This lady was a Mexican as Iam and in our culture man most of the time (not all) think they have this rights over women. You are missing a lot of points there.

    She was working to support her children and was trying to get away from a world of hell made by this so called man but she didnt have no help. How does this make her the abuser. I mean if I was the abuser and controlling someone, why would I want to keep him away. I think thats called logic!!!

  • thurston861

    So Marie, did she stand by and watch the man kill the Children one by one and not fight?

    Did he kill her first with out a fight?

    It is called signs of a struggle. They look for defensive wounds, missing fingernails and the like.

    If she had the order she would have barred the door and there would be signs of forced entry as she tried to defend herself and the children.

    I see you do not watch any TV at all, because that is all that is on TV anymore…Law this, Police that, Cops FBI, CSI: Magic Kingdom…

    I am neither stunned nor disturbed by your obvious denial or delusion that you think you could suggest these things to other sentient beings who know that the Cops would see the discoloration and bruising on your neck from where your ex-husband allegedly tried to strangle you.

    Are you implying that a.) they did not know how to do their job, b.) they did not want to do their job, or c.) that you cannot accurately represent the truth and seek emotion from the outset of your presentation to turn off the logical part of your reader’s minds?

    All Emotion, no Evidence. Defend the Woman at all costs.

    I am will to bet, that If I am wrong, there will be evidence to prove that I am, not mere motive and emotion. Which is what PFA courts are all about because there is no evidentiary hearing. So claims are never proved and defenses are never allowed.

  • Joi

    marie11385 wrote: “I could tell you dont know anything about abuse and domestic violence.”

    Well marie11385 if you think (so little of us here) why even visit this site?
    As far as I am concerned you are welcome here and I am sorry for the abuse you suffered. I hope you will be able to see the “other side of the coin.”

    I’m not going to rehash Mr. Sacks or the Men’s Right Movement position on these issues here. If you care to; you may read Mr. Sacks own writings for that on his http://www.hisside.com site. The mens movement is a “balanced” movement or tries to be.

  • Ray Blumhorst

    When women commit heinous crimes such as this, they get sympathy and compassion, while when men do the same they get excoriatingly demonized and punished. The gender feminist reaction to domestic violence in this case and others proves just how insidious of a misandrist hate movement the gender feminist controlled domestic violence industry truly is, IMO.

    Thank you Glenn for your courageous and honest analysis of this heinous domestic violence case committed by a murderous woman.

  • Joi

    Here is a great book I highly recommend marie. I really hope you get it and can see some stuff you might not be aware of now and understand us a little more. God Bless

    Legalizing Misandry: From Public Shame to Systemic Discrimination Against Men (Hardcover)

    http://www.amazon.com/Legalizing-Misandry-Systemic-Discrimination-Against/dp/0773528628/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-5457051-7808114?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180556897&sr=8-1

  • CaptDMO

    Sorry marie11385, the public shame transferance game is passe.
    Those days are gone forever, no matter
    WHO “reporters” appeal to for sensationalism.
    Personal responsability is the NEW rebelion.
    Come out of the closet.
    We ALL would like to think “A MOTHER just couldn’t do that”.
    History simply won’t afford us that portrait.

  • thurston861

    Yep, then there is the Domestic Violence against my Children adn I whereas I ahve not been able to see them for 3 and a half years, and the additional terror due to the Sex War Profiteers of the Family Courts placed me under 10 times the amount of support than i could ever pay.

    The Slaps.

    The neglect.

    The neglect of the Order of teh House because an RPG and buing knick knack Trolls was more important than keeping the agreement of home schooling the Children.

    The endless accusations of my secret lust for other women because I was not looking at the attention whore constatnly and wondering about the people in the world around us, and teh subsequent withholding of intimacy.

    The Endless treadmill of “I want.” leading to endless hours and concerns over the Bills and the Mortgage that she fraudulently obtained.

    The Endless work on a fixer upper house.

    Nope, none of that is Domestic Violence and Terrorism.

    Nope, a Man is not supposed to be depressed by such things.

    Nope. a Man is supposed to take it, for should he voice of dissatisfation with Princess the calls goes out to the Marital-Martial Law State to come and satiate his distress.

    Marie, can a woman really have sexual desire for a Man that she has the Cops come into the House and Beat?

    How many beatings by the Cops does a man endure before the Woman no longer respects and desires him?

    If her man gets Sodomized in the County Lock up does she refuse to have sex with him a.) until he passes and aids test 6 months later for incubation, or b.) never again?

    I think the situation is clear. The State can neither protect you nor protect you from yourself.

    It is better for you to die at your own hand for your terrible choices from a diseased value system than for the State to destroy the life of anyone, innocent or presumed guilty.

  • mruffolo

    Women cry victim often, so I am challenged to believe their stories.

    It’s difficult to sympathize with a liar.

    I was called abusive by my wife because I argued with her – she wanted to talk on the phone and shop, while I desired that she help out with our child and around the house. My government agreed with her and gave me a two year long restraining order.

    I am aware that in a small number cases actual violence occurs in a family, albeit it’s rarer than we are led to believe.

    The best government governs least. The best wife is not a feminist.

  • thurston861

    Mruffolo, I am sorry for your experience.

    It is interesting to note that in this article http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8PE82CG0&show_article=1&catnum=1

    That every women in Texas who did this sort of thing was judged by a jury as insane. But men are never insane. Men are never driven to desperation or depression.

    Why were these women insane? Because they could not get their Man to do the deed for them?

    It goes back to ‘As Good As it Gets.’ To write a Woman character you take a Man and remove all sense of reason and accountability.

    I am senselessly intrigued by this kind of societal thinking.

    Mruffolo – I agree, so my Girl is not a feminist, and we both want nothing to do wth the government, She has had her own run in and knows there is nothing good there.

  • mruffolo

    False allegations of rape are believed to be more common than many persons realize.

    * A review of 556 rape accusations filed against Air Force personnel found that 27% of women later recanted.

    * In a nine-year study of 109 rapes reported to the police in a Midwestern city, Purdue sociologist Eugene J. Kanin reported that in 41% of the cases the complainants eventually admitted that no rape had occurred.

    * In a follow-up study of rape claims filed over a three-year period at two large Midwestern universities, Kanin found that of 64 rape cases, 50% turned out to be false

    http://www.mediaradar.org/research_on_false_rape_allegations.php

    Women are just as likely as men to engage in partner aggression.

    * An international survey of violence between dating partners in 16 countries concluded: “Perhaps the most important similarity is the high rate of assault perpetrated by both male and female students in all the countries.”

    Men experience over one-third of DV-related injuries.

    * Of all persons who suffer an injury from partner aggression, 38% are male. [Source: John Archer: Sex differences in aggression between heterosexual partners: A meta-analytic review. Psychological Bulletin, Vol. 126, No. 5, pages 651-680]

    Men are far less likely to report DV incidents than women.

    * According to the National Family Violence Survey, female victims of DV are nine times more likely to call the police than male DV victims. These are the percentages of victims who called the police in response to the assault:
    Women: 8.5%
    Men: 0.9%

    The myths about domestic violence are numerous.

    These are some of the common myths about domestic violence:

    * According to the FBI, a woman is beaten every 15 seconds
    * 4,000 women each year are killed by their husbands, ex-husbands, or boyfriends
    * There are nearly three times as many animal shelters in the United states as there are shelters for women
    * Battering during pregnancy is the leading cause of birth defects and infant mortality
    * Women who kill their batterers receive longer prison sentences than men who kill their partners

    Richard Gelles, an internationally-recognized expert on domestic violence, refers to many of these claims as “factoids from nowhere”
    http://www.mincava.umn.edu/documents/factoid/factoid.html

    Many of these myths are based on DV studies that use biased survey methods.

    * Some studies of domestic violence assess both physical and verbal abuse. That inflates and distorts the picture of physical violence.
    * Some studies survey women but not men. Predictably, these studies yield one-sided findings.
    * The DOJ National Crime Victimization Survey is flawed because persons do not consider most forms of domestic violence, such as slapping, shoving, or throwing an object at a partner, to be a crime.
    * The DOJ National Violence Against Women survey prefaces the questions by repeatedly using the phrase “personal safety.” Those words bias the responses because women are more concerned about personal safety than men.

    http://www.mediaradar.org/media_fact_sheet.php

  • mruffolo

    thurston861,

    Thanks for your sympathy, however, I know brothers that experienced worse by our courts and wives/girlfriends.

    I’m pleased that you’re not dating a feminist.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/the-gonzman/ The Gonzman

    Marie – first, read what Glenn wrote.

    Now, having read that, having read people IN THE LEGAL SYSTEM admitting the orders are doled out like coupons, admitting they are mostgly baseless and used for legal jockeying, even court sites admitting “Judges don’t have time toi listen to witnesses and find truth” – how in the hell can you say that with a straight face.

    THAT is logic, you ninny.

  • scottkirk

    women are simply more barbaric than men…Our society will live in constant helter skeltor until we take women off the “god” pedastal, and let them be fully human…
    When we start to see them as flawed humans like the rest of us…then we can begin to hold these women accounteable for their actions, and society will heal itself..
    Until this happens, we will just continue to reach for exscuses for these barbaric atrocities…and these women will get no help, and in general women are getting sicker, and sicker, and no man dares to say anthing about it.

  • http://toysoldier.wordpress.com Toy Soldier

    What I do not understand is exactly how domestic violence would factor into this woman hanging her four children. I could how, if it occurred, it could cause her to want to commit suicide. But how does domestic violence excuse her murdering four children who were neither living with the father nor in any immediate danger from the father?

  • roger

    Perfectly consistent with publicly available data from US Government:

    http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/cm05/figure4_2.htm

  • scottkirk

    toy soldier..the women-as-victim paradigm, or model of thinking has a built in innocent buzz word for women…When men hear the the buzz word domestic abuse…were suppossed to be programmed by the “womens matrix” to immediatelly suspend logic, and justice….and ask if the womens ok.
    The consructionists of this “womens matrix” understand simple social sciences and linguistics, and have brainwashed and manipulated the masses of men (well most of them) in a similar fashion to pavlovs dogs.

  • scottkirk

    If we live to see the end of this feminist leviathan, posterity will learn some hard lessons from studying this “womens matrix”.
    The “womens Matrix” that most men live in has conditioned their minds to think that women are victims and need more of everything…Even when the facts are in…Men in 1920 died 1 year earlier than women and are now dying on average 10 years earlier..
    And all we hear in all the media outlets are women-as-victim…

    This may even be enough to make the Nazi paradigm constructionists blush..

  • Joi

    Interesting that you brought up the Nazi paradigm since our present state of affairs resembles that model in several ways.

  • amfortas

    marie11385, sometimes I feel all sympathied out. Remember the story of the boy who cried wolf? Its the Girl, these days.

    In your specific instance, what can one say. Do we even believe you. So many women, so many lies, so many excuses. Sad for you if no one believes you and your tale is true, but blame your sistas.

    Then, maybe, some women pass by the good guys just to get it on with the bad boys. Exciting, eh. You were perfect, of course. Of course. I might say ‘shame on me’ for even thinking that, but I am all shamed out too. The shame button has been pressed too often.

    Marie, I have only so much sympathy to go around. It is with the children, the murdered children. Murdered by their mother.

    If you can get by without a man, you can get by without a man to blame.

  • thurston861

    I am glad that all men here now see the Sympathy Bomb dropped by some Women in order to distract the readers mind from the facts of a matter and get the emotional operating, and so that not even a Man can properly respond.

    Remember Jack, Wbb,m jsut the Facts M’am.

  • thurston861

    Sk – you are doing some really good work here!

  • bombbombbombbomb

    “If you can get by without a man, you can get by without a man to blame.”

    I like that!

  • Robert Gartner

    Did anyone notice that this woman got a free pass into the United States by using the protection given in one of the last clauses of the renewed Violence Against Women Act which gives harbor to any woman who but claims abuse by a spouse!! This is so ironic for me as I was taking an illegal woman to her home who was our office custodian. The passage of the Act had just happened days before. She told me in spanish that she was going to get protection because her husband abused her! Well of course I wondered whether she had knowledge of the Act. And I met her husband after she had said this to me. They were a very happy family. Everybody was so happy. I knew she would lie to get protection and in her case it was most likely with her husband’s knowledge and complicity.

    Dont be fooled! Our very own government is facilitating an ocean of destruction and I would be willing to bet that this father could speak volumes to how he has been excluded from his children’s lives. But of course now all but one are dead.

  • http://www.false-accusers.com TheManOnTheStreet

    marie11385 wrote: “I could tell you dont know anything about abuse and domestic violence.”

    Obviously you DO though. One would have to know an awful lot about DV to come up with a “story” like yours. It has all of the usual suspects within it. Ever think about writing for Cosmo?

    Does it bother you that so many here do not believe your “story”? Good! How does it feel? Remember that feeling the next time you want to villify all men in general. Remember that feeling the next time you try and justify a murderess with the tired old DV/he abused me bullshit.

    Maybe she killed the kids in an attempt to keep the fathers from them? Ever think of that? Of course not. She killed innocent children! Plain and simple. Putting the blame anywhere but upon her ass is rediculous.

    TMOTS

  • thurston861

    Dang TMOTS, Slap her Down!

    In light of all the guys are saying at Part II of this story I wonder when men are going to feel comfortable talking like this to one another, instead of standing around lying to each otehr about sex, sports, and money?

    Would you guys Dare to talk like TMOTS to your guy friends?

    Or would you leave the subject to the vanity of lying?

    TMOTS has a great point!

    If it was not the Husband it was the boyfriend. If it was not the boyfriend it was the woman’s father. If it was not the woman’s father its was her mother’s boyfriend.

    The Domestic/Sexual Abuse card plays like a Joker in the Deck just like the Libs used to Blame the cause of Minority Crime on Poverty.

    Somewhere, and it was with the Liberals, Motive = Excuse in a court of law.

    Despite the fact of the court’s existence was INGORANTIA JURIS NON EXCUSAT, ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

    So the questions of the court are:

    1. Did X Die
    2. By what means did X Die.
    3. Did Y have motive, opportunity, or means to kill X.
    4. Was DNA or other evidence found on or in the possession of Y.
    5. Was Y present at the time of Death of X.
    6. Was Y acting in self defense.
    7. Was Y a victim of a phantom (unknown) attacker.
    8. Was X suicidal or insane.
    9. Did X commit suicide.
    10. Was Y previously, or at the time of the death of X adjudged to be insane.

    Close the door on mental defect, make it so the court can only recognize it if there was prior mental defect, eliminate all of the temporary stuff and psych evaluations and execute this scourge on society. End the horror.

    Get people to understand there is no getting over and see what happens.

    In conclusion Men…What are you going to talk to your friends about.

    Every day it should be about:

    Male Bashing Media and Courts

    Extra-constitutional Rights of Women

    Male mortality to Female declining since 1920′s and their gaining the right to vote.

    Why do men get together to talk only in lies to each other about sex, money, and sports?

    Let us develop a Topic list of what Men should be talking to each other about and change the conversation.

  • jackal1994

    Woah! Woah! Hold your fire! (smoke clears)
    I think you got her! lol

  • jackal1994

    By the way thurston861 I have actually alienated myself from most of my friends and family by bringing up the fact that sexism is more prevalent and harsher (and more insidious and subversive) than against women.

  • conservativation

    Here is a cut and paste of the first paragraph of that ridiculous Christiannewswire story…It’ll make your blood boil.

    AUBURNDALE, Fla., May 30 /Christian Newswire/ — Domestic Violence is a destroyer. It is believed that Gilberta Estrada hanged herself—after hanging her four young daughters first. A police investigation hopes to confirm the tragic facts of this case. An already confirmed fact is that Estrada was a victim of domestic violence. The Associated Press reports that she had previously obtained a restraining order against the father of one or more of her children. Can we rule out the possibility that domestic violence, or the threat of continued domestic violence, was a contributing factor to the depression Estrada was reported to be experiencing and the decision to end her life and the lives of her children?

    “Woman Submit! Christians & Domestic Violence,” is a book that could save lives. The Christian woman whose spirit is being crushed and life endangered by domestic violence often deals with church sanctioned oppression through unscriptural counsel to submit to her husband regardless of the circumstances.

    The well-intentioned counsel received from friends, family and spiritual leaders often ranges from disappointing at best to life threatening at worst. The battered Christian woman is faced with a unique burden and needs straight answers—not unrealistic expectations or clichéd, stereotypical platitudes.

    Back to me folks…

    This speaks exactly to my OCD subject, the church and how it deals with marital angst…this is why. It reaches across denominational lines, into what should be the “better” churches…conservative (yea right) ones.

    I finally found a pastor at a huge church that agrees with me, and have been discussing this stuff via email back and forth. It took me 3 years to get one bite.

  • jackal1994

    sexism hurts men, more than women–meant to say.

  • Menck

    To conservtivation,

    I’d be mighty interested to hear some of the highlights of your correspondence with that church pastor sometime.

    Sounds like he’s samples a little reality somewhere along the line — that’s usually the only way they will open up their thinking.

  • conservativation

    Menck, when I get time I’ll cut it up and post some of it, briefly, so you get a flavor. I’m not naive enough to think Ive found a turning tide…but it is encouraging somehow.

  • thurston861

    Yes Jackal, we need to talk to the Men around us. The more women get power and extra-constitutional rights the more savage they have become.

    Men’s groups at Church should be talking about this, jsut as teh Church is coming under fire to be controlled in their speech on Homosexuals, who already have Human rights like everyone else, and whould have no extra cosntitutional rights against our right to free association, Men too are under assault.

    If we MEN get a grip then maybe women around us can get a grip.

    Cons is doing great work, because his Spirit wills to get the Church to see what is going on. Perhaps Pastors will get it and press for accountability from the Women who come to their churches.

    i.e. “Women, you make up 80% of the Church attendents here. Only 35% of Men are attending. Married women, where is your Man? Where have you failed in your Vows and your witness to help him get to heaven that he is not Here? Since your Man is not here, why have you not scheduled a marital counseling session with me to ask your Husband where you have failed?”

    Is that not turnign the tables on the status quo?

    Some Pastors cannot do this becuase then they will find out there they failed too. But that would make them REAL Pastors wouldn’t it?

    I doubt the churches will survive a pressing for accountability of wives to husbands, and husbands to Pastors, and Men may not bring their wives in for counseling on their dissatisfaction, but in light of the fact that any mention of disatisfaction is abuse as defined by law, A Chruch Counselor is a perfect witness for bringing it up because it is then a Public Record. [n persons 1=secret (three can keep a secret if two are dead), 2 = private (marriage), 3+ = public.]

    So Cons may have a point.

    Get connected to a Church, and bring her into counseling on an ambush, and lay out your greivences first. Use it unilaterally as a tool for correction and Public record since Women refuse to submit and call any point of dissatisfaction as abuse.

    Once a Church counselor sides with the Woman being unaccountable and not subject to any voicing of dissatisfaction, then the Marriage is declared a One Way Street, it is over, and the Church declared it so.

    Then there is no wonder why Men do not come to church. They are trying to preserve the Marriage to the Righteous and Sinless Princess. that is why the neither call the Cops on her nor File for Divorce in as high percentages.

    Turn the tables and use the stuff here with the Guys.

  • mruffolo

    The man-bad-woman-victim message is dominant in my former church, Willow Creek Community Church. This church also operates an association with over 12,000 member churches.

    https://www.willowcreek.com//membership/index.asp

    I confronted some of the leaders and staf, however, one pastor listen the others ignored me.

    I sense that the feminist message is used in the selling process. It must work as not-for-profits, along with for-profit companies, use it. Further I cannot turn the television on without running into man bad, woman good/victim message.

    How I long for a message absent of victimization from men.

  • jackal1994

    The bad thing is Thurston is that it doesn’t seem to be doing much good. Most of my friends and family think I’m a nut-job from bringing this up.

    The misandry is so well hidden in the popular culture that it takes a long long time to deprogram people. I’m making some progress.

    Whenever I meet with some friends to play cards or watch ballgames I’ll occasionally bring up this subject matter. One time I asked a friends wife: do you think there’s anything men can do that women can’t–like on the battlefield?

    She gave a pretty standard answer that other than pure strength/muscle she thought women could be equal soldiers to men.

    So, then I asked her:”If that’s true, then what’s the big deal about domestic violence?”

    You could almost hear the mental gears in some peoples heads screeching loudly as they shook off years of rust–and that’s just half the people.

    The other half thought I was saying domestic violence doesn’t matter and couldn’t keep the train of thought in station long enough to connect her answer to my question with my statement.

  • scottfree

    There are pastors, evangelists, teachers, etc. that know what is going on
    I am one of them. this is why I posted earlier to contact the news service and correct them with sincerity, not blast em with anger and hatred. The truth is many don’t know and with education not vilification. communicate with them. I spent ten years in a
    divorce limbo and gigantic mess (my ex filed on me) and the same thing happened to me that happened to others I am with you all in the fight and
    desire to see it change. I too have counseled men in this mess. It is not easy
    but it can be dealt with in our own hearts. I survived by the grace of our Lord and savior Jesus I survived to live again, and reach out to others.

  • scottkirk

    women like marie can tell her story…and just like pavlovs dogs, men throw reason out the door….
    They can do this now because the hand that rocks the cradle has been doing so alone for about 40-50 years…

    Men no longer tell their sons to be cautious of the siren call, for men that answer the siren call, invariably crash their ships into the rocks…

  • scottkirk

    scottfree..thanks for the Info…Ille send them a letter..
    As far as being with us in the fight for change..thats great..
    The pen in by far mightier than the sword…be bold and send a link to some male friends of articles on MND, that you think might interest them..

    plant some seeds that will bear fruit in the near future..

  • thurston861

    Jackal – that is awesome!

    Keep it up, send e-mails, do print ups of articles. Talk to people, keep setting those traps they will respond. Remember Paul and Barnabas got stoned to death but lived.

    Really, what otehr choice do we have?

    Scottfree, thanks for being here. I hope you enjoyed something from my ideas of Church counseling approach to share with ALL men in church.

    Do not waste time, bring the Jezebel in immediately for public correction.

    If she is Demonically rebellious, she will flee the church. Then we know its true intentions, and the Pstors can address unacceptable, destructive, non-christian passive agressive behavior of the Church Women.

    Sin is not only active, it is also passive, the pits that we intentionally dig in order to set up for others to fall into. That is just as evil as active defiance to G-D.

    Ignoring the faults of Woen is just as devistating as ignorng the faults of Men. In light of the Marital-Martial Law State and the destruction of Men, we have no defense if we continue to allow love to cover a multitude of sin without Feminine Repentence.

  • thurston861

    mruffolo – Men need to seize the high ground of credibility by trapping the Counselor and Woman in the action of being the one to seek counseling JUST for the simple purpose of reading his List of points of dissatisfaction.

    Have it written up and hand it to the Counselor.

    That means the Man has the Floor and chooses the issue of debate, the Church adn the Woman hang themselves from there.

    Why won’t the marital counselor read the list to the Wife?

    Tell him to read it, tell him you are afraid to read it because when men speak of dissatisfation it is legally domestic abuse and you can be beaten by the police and run out of your house for it.

    Shock the Light of day into them. Any refusal to communicate the points is a refusal to support you or the marriage, or the proper function of the Church.

    Seems like a better idea than just stewing.

    They get enough men coming in and doing this, there will be some crisis preaching.

  • Menck

    To scottfree:

    Great to read your comments. Continue fighting the good fight. I am also one of those in the church and have experienced being ostracized by fellow believers because of traditional notions and ideas about male/female issues and a complete lack of understanding of what really happens in the family court system.

    It is extraordinarly difficult for conservative bible-believers to imagine that there is any explanation for what a man experiences at the hands of family court other than that he must have in some way transgressed. And that the woman involved must be nearly faultless or a victim of circumstance.

    I’ve been down that long road and by the Lord’s grace I have also survived. (And I am aware that there are others here who hold similar faith.) It is a harsh thing to live through, as you apparently know by your own experience.

    I encourage you to do whatever you can from your position as a church leader.

  • Virgin

    The destruction of the family and family values.

    I haven’t followed this story. What I did pick up in an article I read about this was “boyfriend” “father of some of the children” “common-law husband”.

    If she really wanted to protect her children, she would not have had them out of wedlock. She also would have valued herself enough to not shack up with the guy.

    When are people going to wake up to this? There just aren’t any morals anywhere to be found in our society. The world is full of illigitimate children. Sure, accidents happen, but these kinds shouldn’t.

    Even if one removes the issue of morality, surely they should be able to see the ills that are caused by promiscurity. It’s a sad fact, the children pay for the sins of the parent(s).

  • Virgin

    And by the way…yes I know these horrible things happen in legitimate marriages.

    I guess the point I’m trying to make is that there might be less of it going on if people would at least try to go about relationships the right way…or at least by God’s way.

  • Artfldgr

    marie11385,
    just to let you know, being abused and or sleeping at a holiday inn, does not give you automatic expertise. In fact in any normal situation, your input would be considered hostile and tainted by the fact that you cant separate what happened to you from what happens to others. what you are doing is projecting. You are projecting the absolute knowledge you have in your situation, and claiming it gives you some kind of special victim’s insight. This insight is false, since it has no bearing on the separate facts in a separate situation, in which your still trying to change it to your situation, and understand it.

    first of all, a woman that would do this is a sociopath, or a psychopath, use the term you like most, they are the same thing. most people feel guilt, and as such, many acts are beyond them without forced impetus. Suicides rarely take out other people, when they do its not really the same as a suicide. Though we try to make it so.

    real suicides are self directed, they are incapable of acting outward, and so the invert inward. The more problems they have the more they focus them inward and define themselves as the crux of the problem, and that everyone else would be better without them, etc… women usually ACT like they are committing suicide as a dramatic way to manipulate and to achieve goals. That’s why the number of attempts for women are huge but successes in comparison are small. If you wish to claim otherwise, then what your saying is women are so incompetent they cant even get their own deaths right. Meanwhile, mens suicide tends to be when they are not producing and are a burden, a drain rather than putting in. they do it to help the others.

    murder suicides are different… they are more revenge based… however we want to imagine this despondent woman, who thought to kill the kids rather than let them end up someplace… sounds all noble.. but it means that people, like you, have to assume that everyone is sane, and therefore their acts are desperation, not mental lunacy.

    Even you know deep down that womens suicides are mostly fake. How can I tell? Easy, you assumed that she couldn’t finish the job! That she couldn’t do it unless it was done with not return. Even you could not imagine a woman determined enough to finish a job! Think deeply on the knee jerk you just pulled. You are assuming that no woman does this except for theatrical outcome, therefore she wouldn’t, I mean couldn’t have killed herself by just hanging and not caring. In fact, your refusal to believe that she could be that despondent (a testimony to false feelings as a means of using people), that another hand had to do it.

    What you do is not think things through. What your doing is capping your thoughts. A is a problem, b fixes a, no need to look past b. a woman actually committing suicide is the problem… therefore she didn’t and she had to be murdered… the murderer has to be the husband, thought process caped and that’s it. there is no thought to even make a small mental investigation of your own and figure that if she refuses to hang herself and someone else forces her, how did they get her totally compliant in which there was no signs of any resistance (not even her brazenly scratching herself to insure that “they would know”)

    This is how femnuts taught you… tie off the loose ends quickly so your ideas don’t hemorage to death… and then they inspire you to go out with your false views, purile reasoning, and totally disarmed, and your going to take on reason, logic, history, science and such on your own… not only are you a useful idiot, your also useful cannon fodder.

    I do believe you were abused. But I agree more with Mrs Pizzey (the woman that started the first abuse centers and was nearly killed by communist feminists – yeah feminism is communist socialism but their own admittance). She points out that most women in such relationships have a problem, they are abuse prone. They are not the angels that they paint themselves to be.

    In pretty much every case where I could ask questions and get honest answers I can show that the victim instigated things by assuming that there was a imaginary wall that prevented things no matter what they did. your claim that if you breathed wrong he attacked you… do you realize that to any one else except the dv industry you sound like a banana head? Why? well those capped thoughts again…

    When a ditz feminist hears it her inquiry never goes farther than the surface and what you say… but dig deeper, and you can ask the question… so, how much did you know the person before you decided to shack up? did you know the family?

    You and the rest of your sick sisters want to paint the picture that normal healthy people turn into hydes for no reason and start choking and abuseing their loved ones.

    Only in the movies…

    And the DV industry does not allow you to look at your own actions at all as contributory. In fact they tend to say, do what you want, and there shouldn’t be any consequences… spend the rent money, he will make more, and he cant say anything. don’t let him spend on things he likes. Rather than talk to him kindly when he is whole, let him get drunk first, and then harangue him about how he is inferior and how its his fault you could have been doing better… maybe throw in the uncertainty if the kid is his own… or perhaps threaten to call the cops..

    I am NOT saying you did any of that.. You could very well have been married to a mental patient… however, only women give blind sympathy to other women (men don’t do that for men, so don’t expect it for women)… and women will change the story so that they look better in the light.

    You admit that you contemplated homicide, and that tells me that you are mentally unstable. In a world and country that you can just leave… in which you get support 90% of the time.. in which the state garners wages… and on and on… murder is only an option if what you really want is revenge for your own mistakes.

    Many women have a masochistic streak, those that recognize it turn it into some play and they separate it from their life. Those that don’t, do weird things in their life to create real situations in which they get that fix.

    The other thing is that I will bet that you chose an excitring and unpredictable bad boy… that’s because someone sold you a handful of beans. The exact exciting description that the feminist rags are giving you could be re-titiled… “how to find your sociopathic abuser”.

    Of course such things as I just said are heresy… and so you wont learn from them. you will run back to the sisterhood that validates whatever you say… and the last place they want you to look at is how YOU behave… why? because if you don’t cap that thought, you will track it back to them, and that they told you to, and that they made it seem exciting and such.. Basically they screwed you and gave you a thick hide, tools that don’t work, and so on… and you keep coming back to them despite it.

    In the past, you would have had family to help you (and so would the woman who killed herself)… you woldnt be leaving the kids with strangers… she wouldn’t have had kids from several men that basically cuts her future (would you want a man with three kids from three other woman? no? why not, you expect men to want women like that)

    Basically this woman lived her live as she learned from feminism… she didn’t save herself… she didn’t take her time to find a decent man with a long term preference… she attempted to select by sex only… and she selected someone that only used sex to select her…(sex being an overwhelming selector)… at some point, she realized that no matter how good she does, it will always be shit and never what she wanted when she was a little girl before she listened to the bad advice.

    However she was also sociopathic. You can tell that by the fact that she could calmly, one at a time, hang her kids. That’s spite and envy, and such… the favored emotions of feminism… she rationalized the whole thing (that’s relativism)… she didn’t think that the kids were sacred (that’s secularism)…

    and that only a life of pleasure perfect was good, that’s perverted hedonism.. that’s the lesson from movies like million dollar baby, the salton sea, and orgs like planned parenthood, etc.. it’s the basis for eugenics and such…

    (the idea is to make it so bad for you and yours that you don’t hve kids. That you commit self actuated genocide!!! 12 billion years of survival and most of it will stop voluntarily today because of ideas… if I wasn’t human, it would be funny)

    Basically in a perverted hedonistic society, once the ride is spoiled the whole thing is ruined (which is why so many don’t have kids, they spoil the ride if you think of it in terms of sacrifice, and not in terms of acquiring what you want!). relativism and secularism removes the restrictions reasoned and religions not to kill yourself or others (after all, nothing is wrong, no such thing as immoral. Nothing is sacred, what do you thnk that leads to?)…

    She WAS murdered… she was murdered by the new toxic culture brought to you by communists through feminism, and socialism in liberalism… like they SAID!

    and it was atharine A. MacKinnon that said in “Toward a Feminist Theory of the State”: “Feminism, Socialism, and Communism are one in the same, and Socialist/Communist government is the goal of feminism.”

    [so basically your on the same side as the politics that tortured and murdered more than 100 million people. And you think that they like you, and want to do good by you. all they want is power… haven’t you noticed that they take both sides of an issue… feminists for porn, feminists against porn… duh… feminism doesn’t mean anything!! all it is, is a power label, so that both sides can be seen to rally under the same flag, even if they would kill themselves if they met on the street! So rather than persuading you as to which side is better or healthier… they just take both sides and say we have 100 percent of the people on our feminist side. and both those who are for something give money to the same organization that takes money from their opposition… and you women think that is just fine, peachy, and means that your going someplace… no one travels far in a tug of war]

  • scottkirk

    art..”feminism, socialism, communism are one in the same and is the goal of feminism” I guess if this is repeated enough one may start to believe it..But i respectfully disagree…
    Feminists want a totalitarian state that is similar to communism but is more like fascism…
    communism may be a little too equal for them…they want super power…and they have it right now..
    Feminists have seduced the state to “UBER”protect them..and men have become second class slaves with little or no rights…

  • Artfldgr

    The real equality of women, as opposed to formal and superficial equality, will be achieved only under Communism, when women and all the other members of the labouring class will become co-owners of the means of production and distribution and will take part in administering them, and women will share on an equal footing with all the members of the labour society the duty to work; in other words, it will be achieved by overthrowing the capitalist system of production and exploitation which is based on the exploitation of human labour,and by organising a Communist economy.

    Only Communism creates conditions whereby the conflict between the natural function of woman – maternity – and her social obligations, which hinder her creative work for the collective, will disappear and the harmonious and many-sided development of a healthy and balanced personality firmly and closely in tune with the life and goals of the labour-collective will be completed.

    All women who fight for the emancipation of woman and the recognition of her rights must have as their aim the creation of a Communist society.

    The masses of proletarian women must, in their own interests, support the revolutionary tactics of the Communist Party and take as active and direct a part as possible in mass action and in every type and form of civil war that emerges both on the national and international scale.

    and to address your comment as to their aims..

    At its highest stage, the struggle of women against their dual oppression (by capitalism and by their own domestic family dependence) must take on an international character, developing into a struggle (fought under the banner of the III International) by the proletariat of both sexes for their dictatorship and for the Soviet system.

    Third Congress of the Communist International

  • Artfldgr

    forgot to mention all that is from the source at the bottom, not me… you would be surprised what other stuff says…
    i also forgot the link http://www.marxists.org/history/international/comintern/3rd-congress/women-theses.htm and as i have said, horses beget horses, not kangaroos.

  • mruffolo

    Artfldgr,

    This document reads like a piece from NOW’s web site.

    The traditional woman appears to the enemy of Communism also.

    Thanks for sharing.

  • amfortas

    Scottkirk, there is little effective difference between Communism and Fascism. Both are perversions of a natural propensity that most people have to co-operate and support one another. The perversion lies in the enforcement of these inclinations on a mass scale by sociopaths with a murderous intolerance, who wish to control and use the people and gain all the benefits. To sociopaths, other people are useful idiots.

    The healthy expression of the natural propensity is the family. It is based on love and desire, protection, nurturing, provision and human growth. The individual man and woman are the keystones and their natural expressions with, to and for one another spreads outward to social kindness and helpfulness.

    This particular mother was an individual instance of the Communistic/Fascistic person, a sociopath with a murderous intolerance. It encompassed even herself.






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