An unfortunate lack of Unity in our movement

kudos. I’ve seen a big drop in unity here at MND. Before differences were largely about analyzing some issue. Tweaking. Today the issues are more political. The current situation probably reflects more accurately the division among men, and what men themselves have become, in the larger culture. It’s like observing a female sewing circle in action. I’ve come to the conclusion after 6 years here at MND that the divisions will prevent major change to occur. A few people will steer the ship a few degrees in favor of men; men like Steven Baskerville, Glenn Sacks, Marc Rudov et al but that is all I expect. I’ve seen men here at MND in the last six years who see things very similarly to myself and it is to them I send this message: think about yourselves first and plan your life accordingly. It is remarkable how feminised men in America have become. It will be the men, even more than the women, who will prevent you from receiving justice and fairness in your life in this country. I recommend making it a goal to set up your life in another country. I will be leaving the U.S. myself. It is obvious what is at stake. America is and has been changing-and not for the better. The sons, and sons of sons, of men who came of age in the 60s, 70s are going to pay a much greater price then these men themselves have paid for the last 30-40 years. To men like Steven Baskerville, Glenn Sacks, Marc Rudov: I salute you and thank you for what you are doing.

Denis before you move away, will you at least file a Habeas Corpus against the Court that has taken your Right or violated your Rights that they were supposed to protect?

Is that not the best means of filing your complaint of discontent?

Your not going to find unity here because the site itself has become ununified.

Look on any given day at the broad range of topics being addressed here. How many are geared towards mens’ s issues? There has been an upturn lately due to the efforts of Mr. Sacks, Mr. Rudov, EG, etc.

For the most part however, were all over the place.

If a successful movement ever happens it will be, as EG mentions, outside of the existing system (s). The existing system will never allow a mens movement to ever become mainstream.

Too much to loose for them.

I observe that most men care little about social issues, but they instead focus on other matters. However, there are a few men that listen, but their numbers are growing.

The message ought to start earlier in high school or college. Unfortunately, feminists rule academics (a student will expect a failing grade from a femintst teacher with any positive reference for a Patriarch).

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=conservative+student+sue

With the Internet it’s only a matter of time that the message gets out. Thank you MensNewsDaily.com.

It would be helpful if men had an action based website. A place for news and research, yet a place with focus on action. For example, NOW and or AFA styled. In a few clicks, dozens of elected officials are contacted by email or letter from pre-written letters. The AFA contacts company’s leadership to affect how they spend their advertising dollars.

http://www.now.org
http://www.afa.net

Shamefully, we have an action based website for pet rights, but none for men’s rights.

http://www.peta.org

The Boy Scouts would be a great target audience.

I’ ve said it many times, the key to victory for the fathers rights/family law reform/ mens movement is to universally adopt the following strategy.
Teach NCP’s the law, both the conventional and the unconventional method that I use. I have had some sucess and with some help , God knows what could be accomplished.
Second, Unify together, those with greater financial resources assisting those with little or nothing. Because , lets face it ,to back on your feet is supremely important. Without that, very little is possible. Since if you are too busy trying to survive, then you can’t do much about your plight.
Those will greater knowledge, legal, business , money management teaching those that don’t have that.Help do practicle things , help then reaquire property , get an education, build a business, or just make sure they don’t end up in the street.
Thirdly, begin a massive campaign of “Enlightenment”, make the plight and the injustices done to the NCP visible everywhere. The ” politically correct ” may control the media, but we are making enroads on that front.
Print t shirts, bumper stickers, coffee cups and anything else we can put our message on !!It needs to be a simple message, like maybe” I believe in the right to remain a parent, do you? We need a symbol , like , you know the little “red ribbon” about caring about breast cancer, AIDs or some other dreadful thing Once people see ” that symbol” they know its us. Make it easy for people to see the injustices and make it easy for them to support us. you see people are not stupid, the liberals and the feminist have so skillfully lied to them that they believed the lie. We need to show them the truth, no…. not by forcing it down their throats like the feminist did . No present the truth , people will know that itis the truth and will respond accordingly. Pretty soon it will “political suicide to vote any law into existenc the violates the rights of NCP or any parent for that matter.
If done… these things will work and justice wil reign

Robert stevens…I’m right behind you man….Start an organization, and plan a sytematic reach/out awareness campaign….
If we start to get noticed, other men will open their wallets to help us….as were not big bloated beuracrats, men will see their dollars well spent on action….I repeat action,….

while waiting for the (shot heard round the world)…I reach out locally at cofee houses, and put flyers around town that refer people here to MND. and other avante guard forums…

continuous steady little chops on a tree, can eventually bring down a massive structure….

Richard doyle …you are the man…
youre book is a clearinghouse of facts…I’ve written many college essays that have shocked professors (in a good way) by quoteing youre book…

richard doyles book “save the males” ..a must read…right up there with warren farrels “the myth of male power”…

A man must arm himself with the facts…It works well when attacked by the feminst klan and their victim hysteria…

I’ve supported Rich and http://www.MensDefense.org since the mutinous fall of National Congress for Fathers and Children in ’94 because of his message of UNITY. Only Rich has continually expressed the importance of respect for ALL men and father friendly efforts be they politically correct religious in nature to the most politically incorrect extreme. Having the good sense to not attack each other is of ultimate importance. Suppressing male ego and the tendency to claim the status of the messiah must end.

“The history of our “movement” has resembled a circular firing squad unable to redirect its fire at the real, philosophic enemies.” – R. F. Doyle

Here is Rich’s message from http://www.mensdefense.org/Men‘s%20Unity.htm

Imagine men pulling together!

From a perspective of over 40 years in these trenches, I submit that ultimately the only way to ‘Save the Males’ is to form a united front of the many disparate reform organizations against the various enemies of men and fathers (many listed in “Save the Males”). Unity, though the ideal approach, is outside the realm of possibility at present, but a cooperative approach may be possible. All well-meaning organizations and individuals must have common information forums and agree to cooperate strategically if not tactically. There is enough talent and manpower dispersed throughout the men’s/fathers’ movement, internationally, to successfully confront the enemies of justice if that talent and manpower were properly coordinated. Such a force would be overwhelming and could garner the political strength to rival, if not surpass, the feminist juggernaught.

Of course, an agreement like this is more easily conceived than constructed. Requisite to any form of cooperation or unity are a common philosophy and means of communication. The common philosophy must be broad enough to include all reasonable approaches and narrow enough to exclude those approaches that are actually harmful to that philosophy. I have long suggested a philosophy meeting that criterion: “To preserve the traditional nuclear family through restoration of equal dignity and equal (not identical) rights under the law for all male persons across a broad spectrum of life, including divorce, employment, health and crime punishment.” Anything essentially similar to this will do.

I hereby put the foregoing proposal forth to leaders of the major men’s/fathers’ organizations. It is my intention to list on this page of the website the organizations that respond favorably, and who are prepared to sign on to a unity/cooperation effort. In addition to identifying the cooperative among them, this list will be informative for non-affiliated persons wishing to join organizations oriented toward achieving justice and which may be of direct assistance to them.

- R. F. Doyle

lloyd…thanks for the linc.

the threads that hold us together must be stronger than the currents that strive to rip us apart…

PS: After our combined 140 years of life experience, I’m sure Rich and I both agree that we’ve learned there is a Missiah and we aren’t him.

I think it’s high time we identified who our leaders are, based on the accomplishments of said leaders. Whoever has accomplished the most, on the most important things, that person should be the considered the leader. Other leaders should be recognized for their various accomplishments. The biggest accomplishments are:

1. Changing the law
2. Raising awareness in the public sphere, leading to a change in voting and buying habits

Those who lead based on the above criteria should receive our support.

We need LESS chiefs and MORE followers. The internet is full of guys quick to bitch and slow to join. Too many of them have isolationist type websites because they think they can do IT better.

Start an organization? How about we pick one that exists and make it national. Let’s elect leaders amongst those mentioned, and EVERYBODY join and swear to uphold the platform put forth by the winners?

The more militant among can be very useful, as in F4J types that aren’t afraid of civil disobedience.

I’m certain each of us has skills that can be donated to assist the organization either as section chiefs, assistants, and non skilled helpers.

This upcoming “Congress” in DC this July would be the perfect place to stage an election. Even if we just had a straw vote over the internet for an imaginary organization it would be doing SOMETHING

tonysprout wrote:

“The internet is full of guys quick to bitch and slow to join.”

The entire men’s movement is like that, a bunch of individuals blogging and commenting, running Web sites, etc. Occasionally you have a few that hold up signs on street corners, often to passersby who either ignore or quickly forget the message. Still fewer actually donate money to organizations that get results.

Some movement.

Some years ago George Rolph wrote a splendid outline for an action organisation. It was discussed on MNDs forum as it was then but failed to move forward. George had a great vision but as is pointed out, when you are existing on a pittance, little that is large gets off the ground and leadership remains nascent.

Some of the greatest names in the men’s movement have come under fire recently, even on this great site. David Usher is one. Stephen Baskerville another. Glenn Sacks, a worthy warrior leader. All good men with track record and leadership quality. No one is perfect but yet sniping at the great is all too prevalent. (yes, I know. I am guilty too). Marc Rudov shows just what can be done with unbridled confidence and chutzpah, building an attack presence on the TV.

Tonysprout I disagree. We need these leaders – and more. We need leaders for battalions and regiments, companies and special operations groups. We need every leader we can find and a means of allowing them to lead action. Just look at Ray Blumhorst. What a tactical special ops leader he is. Friggin’ brilliant. With a variety of good leaders, men will flock and follow.

Armies are seldom cloned. The footsoldiers are a mixed bunch who only point in the same direction when trained and directed by sound leaders.

I use the military analogy specifically. There are those who seek political means – and more power to their elbow – but frankly the ‘front’ is far too large and deep and right before us. There are no politicains listening to us simply because we haven’t scored any victories that scare them. Politicians will sue for peace only after we have taken the war to the Feminsits and routed them.

Men do not revel in war. Its a thing that has to be done from time to time when the need is so pressing that no other course is enough. I wonder just how long men’s tolerance of tyranny will prevail, preventing the needed revolution. When that day comes and tolerance is put in a box at the back of the tent, we will need our leaders, and the more seasoned, angry, and devastating the better.

amfortas…spoken like a seasoned diplomat….
I’m right behind you man…the time is near…

We have to target all mothers who have sons and bring them into the movement. Women got rights because their fathers lobbied and fought for their daughters. Now that women have all the power and money, it is high time they bring about the change in favour of the men.
There is hope…all women arent dumb to vote just for women or feminist ideas. Proof lies in France where women voted for Sarkozy over segolene. We have to keep up the momentum and bring more women into the fold and things will change for the better.

All,

Unity is 1000% better than it was when I got into the movement 10 years ago. Back then, there really was no movement to speak of, and we did not even register in state legislatures or Congress. Today, everyone knows who we are, and we are building foundations for advancement that were unimaginable just ten years ago.

But, we still have a long way to go. Progress takes time. Minds and public opinion move slowly, albeit, occasional windfalls such as the Duke case bring about a visible lift.

As with any movement, there will be some healthy debate about what to do. But leaders are much more careful not to tread on each others toes or knock each other, as was customary in the pre-2000 era.

Our biggest problem, which all of us must work on, is to bring young never-married men, and married (never divorced) men, and concerned women of all marital statuses into the movement. I have been working on this hard for the past six years. Others, such as Glenn, Mark, Steve Baskerville, and many others have been doing great outreach work. But each of us must bring all our friend into the movement, and fan this thing out. All those married men have more at stake than we do — they haven’t been trashed yet and can save their futures by becoming politically involved now. Young never-married men have the same opportunity — plus — their involvement now will help ensure that they don’t accidentally marry a feminist woman. And, many women can avoid the pitfalls and traps of feminism by joining us in standing up for marriage and fatherhood.

For anyone who has not been in the movement for at least 10-15 years, Richard Doyle’s book is mandatory reading. There is much to learn from the history of this movement. Richard has captured more of it than any other author — because he has been the Umpire at home base since the early 60′s. Those who want a real shot in the arm need to read this book.

There is some question above as to “who” the leaders are. Leaders are those who take the time to learn the ropes, get out in front of the issues, set the agenda, do the hard work, invest the time, and do something worth following.

Some demand to know “what” a leader has “changed” that “justifies” calling him / her a leader. Since we do not have an Abe Lincoln or Martin Luther King that won the big one, there are no leaders who have yet achieved major historical status. But each of us who has been working on this for years and taken intelligent risks has at least several measurable accomplishments and victories — albeit — none that changed the world yet.

It is so easy to sit there and demand that somebody else fix the problem. It is truly shallow to blame others because the war is not won yet. If you do not help fight the war, it won’t be won. Waiting for somebody else to do it will not change anything.

If you want change, you must first ask yourself what you can do for the movement. Then you must do something. Take all that anger and turn it into love — into positive change. Take at least some of your spare time and volunteer to work for a reputable organization. If one is not in your area, get some guys together and start one. Your back yard, your community is your responsibility to work. When you build a reputation in your area, and then dovetail your activities with what major leaders and organizations are doing, this is the hallmark of an effective movement.

Correction to the above: I have been very actively involved in the movement for nearly 20 years now.

Gee, now I feel better about the CHUNK o’sterling I sent to F4JUK, just before
those pesky questions about accounting arose and it crashed to the ground.

Admittedly, I believe cash I’ve sent to Sacks and RADAR seems to be quite well spent.
Speakin of…Hey!, Baskerville!, Where’s my book?

As far as “action”..well, I can’t publish what I’d reccommend. I can only
ask that folks keep an eye on the positions presented by Ron Paul.

Mr. Usher said at 20: It is so easy to sit there and demand that somebody else fix the problem. It is truly shallow to blame others because the war is not won yet. If you do not help fight the war, it won’t be won. Waiting for somebody else to do it will not change anything.

We MUST have the ability to recognize the difference between being a follower and a leader. A large group of leaders, what we have now, with no followers, accomplishes little.

Simply put, I am declaring my status as a follower. I am not a leader. I’m looking for a leader to lend my name, and my vote to. A successful movement needs a singular leader to rally behind. Look at Sharpton. Why is he “successful”? Because he has the numbers behind him to make the media listen.

Our efforts and our limited cash need to be centralized.

Let’s get off the shitter and hold an election.

We need leaders. We need money. We need organization. We need a lot of things. But what I think we need most of all is a great communicator, or two or three. Baskerville, Rudov, and Sacks get national media exposure, which is great, way more than I have ever done. But they aren’t driving thousands of people every day to join us. Heck, I can’t even get one person a month to join us.

The really difficult part is getting people to care. I once had a newspaper very interested in my story, until I dropped the gender ambiguity and let them know I was male. But its not just the media, its people in general. They may support shared parenting at the rate of 85%, but they would rather hear the latest skinny on the minor misfortunes of Paris Hilton than hear about fathers alienated from their children, etc., at lest until they become one of those fathers.

People are, unfortunately, conditioned to show great concern for the plight of women, even sympathy for women who kill. That concern for injustice to women easily flows from men and women alike. I don’t think they care much about the plight of children either, particularly if there is a female who is ok with their plight, and especially if it is the mother. So a mother kills her children and gets national media and even federal legislator support, but a father who did nothing wrong but can no longer visit his children while the mother molests them is persona non grata.

I’ve heard many speakers, but the most motivational to me was Ronald Smith. I think he, and more like him, could drive in the numbers we need, and with numbers the money will flow more easily. Ronald Smith may or may not be a great leader, but he is certainly a great speaker. If somebody is a great speaker and a great leader, fine, but we need both, not just great leaders, because a great leader of a few dozen will accomplish far less than a mediocre leader of millions.

See and hear Ronald Smith speak at: http://daddy.typepad.com/daddyblog/2007/04/robert_and_rob_.html

“Revenge is never a straight line. It’s a forest, And like a forest it’s easy to lose your way… To get lost… To forget where you came in.” Kill Bill I

Hello Denis,

Sometimes, disunity is not entirely a bad thing. Our constitution was founded upon the principle of checks and balances. Part of the evil of feminism is that women are unifying behind bad ideas that harm not only society and men, but themselves. American women are miserable and angry with men (and everyone else) because they’re on the wrong path. Let’s not be in such a hurry to copy their methods.

I’ve seen David Usher’s dark side: He lumped me together with thurston for simply disagreeing with him on an issue (women’s right to vote) and closed down discussion. Then he lectured me about needing to educate myself and listen to him. I get that kind of patronization from the feminists and marxists.

We need to:

Establish a manifesto or basic set of principles for how an empowered masculine society needs to be run. Until we KNOW what we WANT and what is RIGHT, we’re going to run around in a lot of circles.

We’re not going to be able to tame-the-beast and make feminism into a nice doggie anymore than communism and fascism can be reformed. Quite simply: Most women don’t want equality and therefore any equality from voting or workplace rights requires women and society to treat men as criminals in order to justify the former entitlements. There’s no getting around the fact that if women don’t want to accept the duties for equality, they NEVER WILL. DEAL WITH IT.

Whatever the solution is, it’s not going to be won in a general popularity contest. Fortunately, the group that we need to convince has the most power and ALWAYS will: MEN. The guys who earn a living, pay the bills, and defend the nation. Without them, there is no feminism. Once there is a “men’s movement”, it’s work will be done. That may be why it doesn’t work like other movements: Because other movements are about getting men to recognize them. Once men recognize themselves, that’s all she wrote.

Choose a concrete and resonably finite but stategically significant issue or project and just start working on it, locally, defining tasks and creating the organization you need as you go along. If you are lucky the momentum you generate will prove lasting and provide the foundation for bigger and better things.

I’ve seen organizations which got off to a good start and then fizzled, mostly because people became discouraged when things didn’t happen fast enough: no quick fix or silver bullet is going to miraculously materialize, so let’s stop waiting for it. Neither is any messianic `leader’ or fountain of funds likely to appear out of nowhere—nor is either necessary to get started. Unity is not a problem: action is.

I’d like to know how many of us here have donated actual time or money. Would each of you mind ticking off ways in which you have helped the cause? All this talk about defining a leader, reading a book, holding elections, writing a manifesto — it all seems rather moot if each of us personally are not giving of our time and money.

I have sent a couple thousand dollars to Glenn Sacks in the form of electronic advertising on his blog and e-mail newsletter. I have donated to the Shared Parenting initiative that was on the ballot in North Dakota last November. I currently donate $100/month to the California Alliance for Families and Children in addition to providing them with lots of man-hours in Web design work. I have donated a lot of Web design work to Fathers-4-Justice U.S. as well as using my financial resources to help them procure t-shirts for their latest rallies. I created DVstats.com to aid in research on the mutuality of domestic violence, and also DontMakeHerMad.com to focus on false allegations. In addition to all that, I post the occasional article on MensNewsDaily, StandYourGround, or AntiMisandry.

Those are my activities. Unless each of you philosopher-kings can demonstrate at least something useful that you’ve done, why spin our wheels about “mass movements?”

I’m not sure that many understand the significance of the Pogo quote: “We have met the enemy, and he is us.”

It is our male nature that prevents our success. The very male qualities of aggressiveness and competitiveness coupled with male ego that are our enemy. Powerful men help victims, not other powerful men beat down by more powerful men. It’s male nature. Women don’t have theses problems and easily band together and cooperate by nature for survival.

In almost every case of a significant victory for our cause, one man has produced results IN SPITE of being surrounded by others telling him how to accomplish the task. Most often the man producing results is trampled by other men who seek to capitalize on his success. He is forced out and gives up and the jackals smelling success destroy the progress.

A pig can fly too if you shove a rocket motor up it’s arse.

Women don’t have theses problems and easily band together and cooperate by nature for survival.

What bullpucky.

Lloyd, in case you haven’t noticed… women are MORE helpless today than a century ago! Sure, it may appear they’re going about their lives without men and more are going to college BUT those higher college numbers are due entirely to preferences and children in single mother households would starve to death without child-support and a massive welfare state.

A pig can fly too if you shove a rocket motor up it’s arse.

Women’s equality is a SIDE EFFECT of other social conditions controlled almost entirely by men. Those men may be misguided or selfish but they are still men. When they change their mind, that’s the end of this discussion.

I think a leader aught to be considered on an action by action basis…

I know if a leader within a thousand miles of me.(me..new england) set up a podium in a city park, and had a barbeque and speak out…I would be there…

John Dias at 27: Hi, Today I donated fifty bucks for the DC Congress this year. I can’t afford to go. I have contributed cash to Sacks. I have made out of state trip to the Wilbur Streett memorial in Jersey, and traveled to Syracuse to meet with John Murtari outside of Hitlery’s office. I am a paid up member of F4J Ohio.

I am waiting for a leader. I don’t expect results next week, month, year. I DO expect us to get our act together. I have never been affected personally by men’s / father’s issues; I advocate because I care about Liberty and our Constitution.

I have other interests that compete with my men’s rights dollars and the economy is about to downturn.

Manifesto? Gonzo/Gonzman/Pete Jensen/the Great Hairy Giant drafted a spledid manifesto only a year or two ago. Around the time of George Rolph’s org plan. Maybe it’s time to find the back shelf they were thrown onto and dust them both off.

Richard Doyle or (R. F. Doyle) as you used to abreviate your name as the Editor and main force who kept The Liberator going. For years I saved back issues of your paper to reassure myself that someone understood men and divorced dads predicament. Eventually I had to clean up my basement,but found one back issue with motto “United we win, Divided we fall”. I could not open commentary section of your post, but commented when another dropped out because of difference in direction with MND.
I was always fascinated your musing from mythical “Gopher Prairier” but most importantly you took the abuse that others (perhaps moles) gave to you. I’m forever grateful for your perseverance. I’m repeating myself. bi=ut
“May the angels escort you to the pantheon of the founding fathers when you depart this valley of tears to rest in Abraham’s bosom”
It was so good to see that you’re still around and have maintained consistent directon over 30 years. May God bless you and Mike La Salle, the wizard of electronic age.

A leader will have vision. If everything goes as planned, what is this look like in six months, a year, three years, ten years.

A leader will be capable to execute the vision; have chemistry to get along with others (even the enemy) as to build alliances; and, have character not to screw it up.

A leader will call men to do the jobs they are gifted to do with maybe no pay or no reward, but sacrifice.

Who will lead us out of the darkest period of the history of man?

Well, Dias, my main “activities” include communicating with the Legislature—letters to committees and their counsel, etc.—-and urging others to do similarly and not pander to CAFC (cafcusa.org).

I realize several think its a waste of time, but I wear myself out on the church front regarding anti male sermons, and church supported female filed unilateral divorce. Its the battlefield Ive chosen and Ive yet to really advance a single yard of new turf…but dang-it I’m tryin.
I email churches after reading their comments on the sites and/or even downloading their audio files and picking apart the misandry. Locally or even when Im traveling on a Sunday, I will place a stack of one page written comments I’ve made up on the table where the churches offer literature for their various ministries, mine sort of gently “outing” them. I have an email address on there and have gotten a few replies from folks who’ve picked it up.
Anyway, thats my little corner of the war.

mruffollo…why don’t you draft up a job outline, and what men could expect from the leader…(for action, and results)

you/or I could start a web page to find interested parties..

And we can hire a public relations/diplomat position…And If men start to see results, than maybe they will donate to a worhty cause thats getting results…

Polishknight: Re #25:

Shutting down an outrageous conversation of yours about revoking the 19th amendment s a very reasonable thing to do. Anybody who thinks that the answer lies in taking away women’s right to vote is on the lunatic fringe of reality and causality. (Note, we can also end auto accidents by banning automobiles).

If any dark sides were revealed in that transaction, they certainly were not mine.

david usher…well said…
We need to find a way to target some of the writers that are spinning up this feminist victim hysteria..

Theres a man who writes for the local newspaper here in town that is way biased in his reports…always a constant sustained anti male/women innocent victim agenda..

IN HIS POLICE REPORT NEWS…

I asked him about his bias…for instance he goes on, and on about a girl that was killed when she came out of the bar at 2am. looking for drugs…
But hardly mentions the mother that drowned her 7 year old boy over a fight with her husband..

so he doesn’t answer back, because he doesn’t have to…But I’m praying for the day when these spin doctors that are inflameing hatred against men/boys; are going to be held accounteable for their inflamatory rhetoric

This inflamatory/biased rhetoric is leading to some serious constitutional rights violations concerning equal protection under the law..