Phyllis Schlafly, champion of women’s rights and American military might

2007-06-18
By

On the day on which the Equal Rights Amendment failed, Phyllis Schlafly commented, “I think today marks the greatest victory for women’s rights since the passage of the women’s suffrage amendment to the constitution.”

The statement outraged ERA supporters. But it was right. The women’s suffrage amendment granted women a right they deserved simply because they are persons and citizens. The ERA threatened to remove the special rights that women need as women.

Women of Schlafly’s generation usually married with the understanding that the husband would be the breadwinner and the wife the home manager. While there were many variations on this basic theme with women such as Schlafly’s own mother pursuing paid work outside the home and for a time even being the family’s main support, it remains true that most families relied principally on the man’s income. Laws reflected this understanding by making support the husband’s legal responsibility. The ERA would have voided all such laws. Perhaps most important, as Schlafly pointed out, the amendment had no “grandmother” clause that would have made the laws mandating husband-support continue to apply to those who had married under them. Thus, female full-time homemakers would, at least on paper, lose a major right on which they had depended. This led Schlafly to nickname the ERA “the men’s liberation amendment.”

ERA activists often found that working women felt threatened by the amendment. Sylvia Ann Hewlett, writing in her book, A Lesser Life: The Myth of Women’s Liberation in the United States, discusses an encounter that underlined this sense of being threatened. An ERA activist tried to talk a female factory worker in supporting the ERA. The factory worker looked skeptical and retorted, “I heard this Phyllis Something-or-other say on TV that it might mean taking the couch out of the restroom that they’ve got to put in for us women.” The activist replied that it might mean putting one in for the men. “If you think life is fair, forget it,” the factory worker replied. “I’ve got three kids at home and a husband who won’t lift a finger!”

What can we learn from the above encounter? One lesson is that the perception of men as lazy slobs is a prejudice not dependent on one’s politics. Thus, Schlafly was misleading to characterize her opponents as “bitter women.” Bitterness exists on all political sides as well as among the apolitical. A second lesson is that some women value traditionally female privileges like couches in the restroom. Responses to a previous blog indicated that men as a group may not want them. In either case, it is quite possible that, under the ERA, the couch could be pulled out of the women’s room without being put in the men’s.

Perhaps Schalfly’s strongest and most important anti-ERA arguments centered around the fact that it would require that women register for the draft if men must and prohibit the military from making distinctions as to combat assignments. ERA supporter Martha Griffiths once called this point a “red herring.” However, it was a red herring her side refused to remove from the amendment by putting in a clause saying it would not affect the draft or combat assignments.

Women can and do serve their country in America’s military in a variety of capacities. The prohibition from frontline ground combat is necessary if America is to win its wars. After all, the strength and speed differences between women and men mean that, if women’s sports are to exist at all, sports teams must be sex-segregated. Similarly, a mixed or female frontline infantry unit fighting an all-male unit would be quickly clobbered. When Fred Schalfly was urging his wife to campaign against the ERA, he noted, “No military has ever won a war by sending women to its frontlines.”

Phyllis Schlafly was right to point out that treating the sexes equally for purposes of draft registration and frontline infantry combat would be to ignore basic physical realities. Demanding more of a group of people than they are able to physically give is not liberation but a grotesque oppression.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/denise-noe/ Denise Noe

    David R. Usher said,

    I have already sent her the article. The next time I talk with her, I will ask if she said these things about the ERA being a “Men’s liberation amendment” — something that might curtail women’s right to marital support.

    (Denise) I’ll be very interested in her reaction. I’ll also be terribly disappointed if she considers it insulting. I sincerely meant to be complimentary but . . . I guess I could have missed the target. Please let her know I wasn’t trying to write an attack.

  • mruffolo

    Schlafly on:

    Fathers
    http://www.eagleforum.org/topics/fathers

    Feminism
    http://www.eagleforum.org/topics/Feminism/index.shtml

    Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women
    http://www.eagleforum.org/topics/CEDAW/index.shtml

  • donnieboy57

    wls; i believe schlafly writes for townhall.com. i could be wrong.

  • David R. Usher

    I have already sent her the article. The next time I talk with her, I will ask if she said these things about the ERA being a “Men’s liberation amendment” — something that might curtail women’s right to marital support.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/denise-noe/ Denise Noe

    David R. Usher said,

    Hi Denise,

    As written, the piece places Phyllis more in the line of inequalitarian feminists. Saying that the ERA is a “Men’s liberation amendment” that could cost women their marital right to economic support does not sit well — this sounds like something N.O.W. would harp on — and the last thing Phyllis would be focused on. And, knowing her as well as I do personally, I greatly doubt she ever said these things.>>

    (Denise) You have to remember that the ERA battle was fought in the 1970s. This was a time period in which many, perhaps most, couples followed the male breadwinner-female homemaker model. Women of Schlafly’s generation married under the understanding that that was the general model. Laws in most states tended to reflect this, making the husband responsible for the support of the wife. I heard Schlafly discuss in an interview with Barbara Walters how “a wife might still be able to sweet talk her husband into supporting her” but that the ERA would void the legal responsibility. The simple fact is, this seemed to Schlafly and other women like a classic case of changing the rules in the middle of the game. It seemed to me that part of Schlafly’s focus was to defend the right to that traditional male breadwinner-female homemaker lifestyle and that she stood opposed to those who derided homemaking.
    Dear Mr. Usher, since you know Phyllis Schlafly so well, could you show her my little essay? I would be surprised if she would be offended by being called a champion of women rights and American military might — but then I was offended by your reaction to what I believed were compliments!

    >

    (Denise) I usually mean pretty much what I say. However, there are times when I’m being funny, satirical, ironic, or just kind of playing with ideas and throwing them around. Yes, I realize I get some odd reactions.

    >

    (Denise) Thank you for your input, Mr. Usher and I’m very glad we’re having a cordial dialogue. I may take some of your advice to heart. I am anything but a slave to any feminist ideology — remember “feminist frogwash”? : )

  • Carl51

    Phyllis Schlafly is a strong supporter of men and common sense. However as far as the ERA is concerned, I’ve always believed that its passage would have given more to women that it would have taken away. Look at the 14th amendment- the equal protection clause (equal protection under the law). This means that all people are to be treated equally under the law.

    Ask any man who has been divorced if he was treated equally. Ask a man who lost a job to a lesser qualified woman if he was treated equally. Ask a man if his penalty for breaking the law is equal to a woman doing the same thing. My point is our government officials ignore our laws already, so passing the ERA is pointless. There might have been some nonsense about gender neutral restrooms and the like, but when push came to shove, women would get the things they want, but not the things (like conscription) that they don’t want. So discussion about how good or bad a woman would be in combat is moot.

  • David R. Usher

    Hi Denise,

    As written, the piece places Phyllis more in the line of inequalitarian feminists. Saying that the ERA is a “Men’s liberation amendment” that could cost women their marital right to economic support does not sit well — this sounds like something N.O.W. would harp on — and the last thing Phyllis would be focused on. And, knowing her as well as I do personally, I greatly doubt she ever said these things.

    I have seen a few of your articles that end up falling into deep waters. It seems you are accustomed to making sweeping generalist statements — often uncited and ideological in nature — which are not tightly crafted. When you write like this you are saying things that perhaps you don’t mean — but are most certainly there.

    Perhaps you should be more careful in nailing the exact points, and to clarify what you do not mean, when writing on these issues. And, I would definitely recommend fact-checking everything you get from feminist books before using it. A lot of it is nonsense — and this is hurting you.

  • http://www.mensdefense.org Lloyd Selberg

    With all this discussion of ERA and women’s role in the military and the debate over Phyllis Schlafly’s position there on, I conclude that Phyllis Schlafly represents a rational, male friendly, woman’s view of the subject.

    However, from the male perspective, I leave the last words to the ever rationally practical Fred Reed, “Consider urinals in the Army. They were never a problem, because men see the entire world as a urinal in waiting. The side of the road, the middle of the road, a tree, the ocean – they don’t discriminate. The way feminisms see oppression everywhere, men see urinals. It’s a design feature.”

  • mruffolo

    Man helped defend woman while using his gun. Feminist employer fires man.

    http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/061807/met_178250725.shtml

  • ggreen67

    I am surprised to hear the Schlafly’s use the argument regarding women on the front-lines.

    Ms. Schlafly was speaking at Emory University about 1.5 yrs ago. Someone asked a question regarding her personal life during one of the wars (didn’t catch which one).

    Anyway, Ms. Schlafly commented that during that conflict she was employed by a company that produced machine guns. Her job, to test-fire 30 and 50 caliber guns before they were shipped to the conflict area.

    Her interpretation of why she opposed the ERA was that it simply not needed. Women have always had the same rights as men since the inception of the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

    She came-off to me as someone who didn’t want, nor need any artifical measures to advance herself. She did it on her effort and merit alone.

    That, in my book, is what making yourself worthy of respect is all about. Any man should be able to understand and agree with that.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/denise-noe/ Denise Noe

    amfortas said,

    Hi Denise. I am doing as well as usual which isn’t good but isn’t all bad. Thanks for asking.

    I didn’t respond Denise to the Phyllis bit per se as I really don’t know enough about her history to make any useful comment. I didn’t take your views of her as a criticism though.

    (Denise) THANK YOU! I was astonished that David R. Usher saw the piece as an attack on her.

    >

    (Denise) She often is. I read a sensible column pointing out the legitimacy of the complaints many men have about the child support laws.

    If I have taken the topic off on a tangent though, forgive me. But that’s blogs on MND for you! I doubt if she would approve of fightin’ gels, though even she must know in her heart that women are formidable and can be wicked and fight as dirty as any. Many men have found that out to their cost.

    (Denise) Schlafly knows very, very well “that women are formidable.” SHE is formidable. William Safire called her “the most effective campaigner, man or woman, in America today.” She’s an admirer of Margaret Thatcher, certainly a formidable woman.
    However, Schlafly has pointed out, “I fight with words.” She doesn’t duke it out and is aware that her physical strength would not make her well-suited for physical combat with a man.

  • amfortas

    Hi Denise. I am doing as well as usual which isn’t good but isn’t all bad. Thanks for asking.

    I didn’t respond Denise to the Phyllis bit per se as I really don’t know enough about her history to make any useful comment. I didn’t take your views of her as a criticism though. The small amount of her huge output that I have read seems largely to be sensible and sensitive about some of men’s issues, but as I said, I haven’t read enough.

    If I have taken the topic off on a tangent though, forgive me. But that’s blogs on MND for you! I doubt if she would approve of fightin’ gels, though even she must know in her heart that women are formidable and can be wicked and fight as dirty as any. Many men have found that out to their cost.

    I hope you are doing well. :)

  • brmerrick

    “[T]reating the sexes equally for purposes of draft registration and frontline infantry combat would be to ignore basic physical realities. Demanding more of a group of people than they are able to physically give is not liberation but a grotesque oppression.”

    Draft registration is also the opposite of liberation. It is also against the 13th Amendment. It is the very definition of “grotesque oppression”.

    And grotesque oppression has been at the heart of feminism since its beginnings. Here’s Murray Rothbard:

    “Women’s suffrage had long been a movement directly allied with prohibition…

    “[During WW1] Food Czar… Hoover enlisted the cooperation of the nation’s women in his ambitious campaign for controlling, restricting, and cartelizing the food industry in the name of ‘conservation’ and elimination of ‘waste.’…

    “In addition to food control, another important and immediate function of the Woman’s Committee was to attempt to register every woman in the country for possible volunteer or paid work in support of the war [WWI] effort. Every woman aged sixteen or over was asked to sign and submit a registration card with all pertinent information, including training, experience, and the sort of work desired…

    “Six thousand women were officially commissioned by the state of Louisiana to conduct the registration, and they worked in tandem with state Food Conservation officials and parish Demonstration Agents…

    “Apathy and ignorance abounded,… and [Mrs. Carrie Chapman Catt] proposed to mobilize twenty million American women, the ‘greatest sentiment makers of any community,’ to begin a ‘vast educational movement’ to get the women ‘fervently enlisted to push the war to victory as rapidly as possible.’ As Mrs. Catt continued, however, the clarity of war aims she called for really amounted to pointing out that we were in the war ‘whether the nation likes it or does not like it,’ and that therefore the ‘sacrifices’ needed to win the war ‘willingly or unwillingly must be made.’…

    “In the end, Mrs. Catt could come up with only one reasoned argument for the war, apart from this alleged necessity, that it must be won to make it ‘the war to end war.’”

    The “Progressives” did a lousy job of that, didn’t they? Thus, British and American suffragettes are exposed as nothing more than socialists of the old Christian/Progressive kind. And now post-modern America is reaping the benefits of their early work. They oppressed the masses then, they are oppressing them now.

    Banning women from a draft is UN-equal treatment under the law, and any draft is antithetical to liberty.

    I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. Until men and women everywhere embrace libertarian values over the socialist Democrat/Republican “get-out-and-vote” shell game, men will not reobtain their inalienable rights.

    All feminism is based on lies.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/denise-noe/ Denise Noe

    Hi, amfortas. I hope you’re doing well.
    The real purpose of my blog was to pay tribute — without irony or a hidden agenda! — to Phyllis Schlafly. She has often been unfairly portrayed as a “keep ‘em barefoot and pregnant” advocate. One of her chief arguments against the ERA was that it would take rights away from women.

  • amfortas

    Donnyboy57 puts it just right: – “it is time for men to speak up and say enough is enough. i don’t hate women, nor do i believe that they are any less of a human being than a man.”

    This is a perfect statement of an MRA position. I see absolutely no pressing need to denigrate women but nor to treat them as children. Women are generally competent, just as men are generally competent. Both show their mettle through action. Both seek equality, and in my opinion there are some clear measures, both objective and subjective.

    Objectively, there is a strength difference. Every advance in technology reduces that difference. In the main it is virtually irrelevant now. A chap doesn’t have to lug a hundred lbs of dynamite anymore; he carries a few ounces of C4. His machine gun and ammo may weigh 60lbs but it delivers a punch that is 100 times what it was 50 years ago. He uses trucks and mechanised equipment where before he needed mules.

    Objectively the outcome of a battle is victory or defeat. The defeat is usually of other men who have similar upper body strength and ability to read a map. It didn’t swing things for them. IT NEVER HAS.

    230,000 rough, tough, really pissed off British tribesmen who had just spent the last fortnight successfully sacking Colchester and London, slaughtering the cityfolk and doing a bit of fun pillaging and eating their fill, faced 10,000 exhausted, hungry Romans of the 14th GMV legion.

    Guess who won.

    Ask yourself why.

    Subjectively, people perform the way they believe – or are encouraged to believe – they can. Women are full of confidence and the men – some here – jeer. So, put it them both the test.

    Men should shut up with their jeers and naysaying and DEMAND that women form their own Regiments, their own Battalions, their own Companies, their own Platoons. The women should, like donny, – and me too; I did the hacking and spewing through the friggin’ infested swamps and jungles too and it was friggin’ awful – find the source of their humanity and capability in the dark uncompromising heat of confronting the huge challenges, head on, with NO ONE to rely on but themselves. I had to. I am no Arnie friggin’ Swartzenegger. Just a guy.

    I would go a lot further as an MRA. I would suggest that if a conscienscious objector can be deployed as a medical orderly or as a cook, or a draft dodger can have women turn them in or others laud them for their politically-excused cowardice, then decent, honest, hard working men can refuse point blank to serve in the military until women get off their silk-clad arses and do the equality thing.

    Since the early days of suffragettes all the way up through more and more privilege for women and denigration of men’s honest, dutiful efforts, right up to defences or otherwise of Phyllis position, women have avoided putting up.

    I say, like Donny does, that, –

    “it is time for men to speak up and say enough is enough. i don’t hate women, nor do i believe that they are any less of a human being than a man.”

    I want to see women PROVE ME RIGHT OR PROVE ME WRONG. I don’t mind accepting what the outcome of a hundred years of women trying hard shows, one way or the other. But, Put up or Shut up.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/denise-noe/ Denise Noe

    In The Power of the Positive Woman, Phyllis Schlafly talks at great length about how the Equal Rights Amendment could harm women and harm America’s military. She discusses how it could take away protections for homemakers and mandate the drafting of women and sending them into frontline infantry combat.
    Again, I want to reiterate to Mr. Usher that this piece was supposed to be a compliment to Schlafly who has championed the rights of fulltime homemakers and the importance of a maximally effective military.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/denise-noe/ Denise Noe

    David R. Usher said,

    Sorry guys, I goofed by two orders of magnitude. The above is a fifth-party quote. Denise cites Hewlett, who cites an activist, who was talking to a factory worker, who said that she heard Phyllis say blah blah blah ….

    Now, does everyone understand how feminists operate? The UNPF and various other U.N. reports are also reports of reports of surveys of women that ask only the desired questions of only women to get the desired

    (Denise) Mr. Usher, I must say I’m terribly disappointed and dismayed in your reaction. My essay was meant — quite genuinely — as a TRIBUTE to Phyllis Schlafly both for her defense of women’s rights and her defense of the American military. I have read a flattering biography of Phyllis Schlafly called “America’s Sweetheart” — a biography Schlafly herself recommends! — and I’ve heard Schlafly on programs talking against the Equal Rights Amendment. Are you saying that Schlafly was NOT concerned about the possibility that the ERA would gut protections for fulltime homemakers? A man called a radio program to say he didn’t think it should be the husband’s obligation to support the wife and Schlafly said, “I’m very glad you called up because it helps show that the beneficiaries of this amendment will be men, not women.” In an interview I saw with Barbara Walters, she discussed how it would void laws mandating husband support. In “Sweetheart,” she is quoted as pointing out that there is no “grandmother” clause in the amendment to protect women who married with the understanding that they would be home managers and their husbands breadwinners.
    Again, Mr. Usher, I want to emphasize that I was not attempting to write ironically to call it as I see it and to compliment Schlafly.

  • donnieboy57

    usher… thanks for holding denise accountable. you do it quite well. also, schlafly is a consistant champion of men and any right thinking man who has ever heard her speak ( i have ) will never let a lightweight like denise tarnish her good works. i am not that easily influenced by mindless rhetoric designed to promote group agendas.

  • David R. Usher

    Sorry guys, I goofed by two orders of magnitude. The above is a fifth-party quote. Denise cites Hewlett, who cites an activist, who was talking to a factory worker, who said that she heard Phyllis say blah blah blah ….

    Now, does everyone understand how feminists operate? The UNPF and various other U.N. reports are also reports of reports of surveys of women that ask only the desired questions of only women to get the desired statistic.

  • donnieboy57

    amfortas…………you have the balls to say what most men know and believe, but are affraid for oh so many reasons to verbalise.

    i was in the army before it was fashionable for women (1968-1971 ). i cannot comment on what i did not see. the only women in vietnam were medical staff….in the rear. they never even came to the front on evacs. never!

    but i know what i know. i spent 3 years of my life doing what i was told was “the right thing”. the women of my era did nothing, with few exceptions. in this age of equality, it is very hard for a man in my age group to understand why men have to die so women can shop. simply unjust, from my perspective. i carried a ruck sack, including water and ammo, of up to 70lbs. thru jungle as thick as you can possibly imagine chopping away with a machete, all day long every day for months and months in 100 degree weather. we all did. i don’t know many women who could ( or perhaps more importantly would ) do what we did and as i stated, we all had to do it. if you fainted, you sucked it up and kept on going. gonna sit there and cry all alone? it was unbelievably hard to cope, as i look back. i don’t tell war stories, ever. but sometimes i want to screem when i am forced to listien to whinny women complain about there lives, as though they have no responsibility for the safety and care of our social structure. they have rights, we have work to do. it is time for men to speak up and say enough is enough. i don’t hate women, nor do i believe that they are any less of a human being than a man. but we must instill in future genrations of males the truth that they are not here just to make life easier for women 24/7. thats how i see it.

  • David R. Usher

    Guys,

    I doubt we will see a real citation (i.e. in something that Phyllis actually wrote). Feminists are famous for making third-party, rumor mill citations of what other feminists said or what other feminists “reported”, who did not cite their sources either.

    Denise already has a frameable example of this above — a third-party quote of a quote of a quote:

    “Sylvia Ann Hewlett, writing in her book, A Lesser Life: The Myth of Women’s Liberation in the United States, discusses an encounter that underlined this sense of being threatened. An ERA activist tried to talk a female factory worker in supporting the ERA. The factory worker looked skeptical and retorted, “I heard this Phyllis Something-or-other say on TV that it might mean taking the couch out of the restroom that they’ve got to put in for us women.”

    Of course, the above is not a cite — anybody could make this up for the purposes of yet another feminist fairy tale — which Ms. Hewlett or the “activist” relating the encounter most certainly did.

    If one believes the above, we can also believe in the bi-coloured python rock snake and the elephant’s child spanked regularly by his many aunts and uncles for wandering all up and down the great, green, greasy Limpopo river all set about with fever trees asking what the alligator has for supper.

  • amfortas

    But John, all these excuses just feed the female avoidance. The average Joe has to train and develop his strength and skills. The hundreds of thousands of war dead soldiers so far have all had superior upper body strength. Fat lot of friggin’ use it was to them. A one ounce FMJ took them down. Its is time the friggin’ ‘weak’ **earned** their inheritance of the world.

    I don’t see any need for the male vs female ‘competetive’ element. The only competitor worth a pinch of shit is the enemy. Let the girls have their own friggin’ trucks and face the problem of loading it. If they take longer, they cop the attack. Tough. They will soon pull their friggin’ fingers out, polished nails and all.

    There IS NO EXCUSE for idle slackers with vaginas not organising themselves and doing their friggin’ duty. They are the ones who claim equality. They are the ones with the hubristic chants of ‘women can do anything a man can – and better’ . John, stop standing in their way like some latter day chevalier. Let the women lift their own load. Men have had to and more. All your arguement does is allow women to continue to sacrifice men.

    Let guys with bulky pecs hand out white feathers for a friggin’ change to the loud-mouthed harridans.

  • JohnG

    amfortas

    Yah, I know a few Amazons too. I’m retired myself, and the exception to a rule doesn’t prove any points.

    If you remember anything about loading 5-ton trucks for a field problem, who’d you send, if it needed to be done fast? Three guys or a squad of girls?

    I think it is also interesting with the Army in its perpetual Marine-envy (we just adopted the digital cammies, couldn’t stand it that the marines did it before we did) decided to implement hand-to-hand combatives (jeez, whoda thought somebody might need to defend themselves if they run out of bullets). The have the women involved in that too, just they can’t train against men. May get hurt you know.

    I asked a few hundred females about this over the last couple decades, and resoundingly, if you asked female enlisted about combat service, they would generally cringe with horror. The common retort was that it was only females officers bucking for a promotion that seemed to be pushing the agenda.

  • amfortas

    So, I guess my 21 years before and after the mast don’t count, JohnG.

    The girl who carried my 45lb pack for a couple of miles (as well as her own) so my bleeding feet could take a rest, didn’t count. The American girls who I used to run down the assault courses in the Thetford Chase carrying their fair share of the load of Pine poles (we would charging through male Army platoons, srtuggling with their’s) didn’t count. The 20 women in my command of 180 troops, (both Brits and Americans) who pulled their weight as well as the men did, didn’t count.

    This upper body issue didn’t seem to faze them then and the physical training (back in those days) requirements were the same for both genders.

    Perhaps the mollycoddling has increased since then but they could mix it with the men quite well enough.

    But let’s say for a moment that a different standard could be worked out. Men have been carrying 100lbs since the Roman Legions under Augustus introduced the standard. Make it less. What is carried now does 5-50 times the effective war work.

    The mixed unit may be criticised. The men may be overly and out-datedly chivalrous or over-protective. So, lets have all-female Battalions. Commanded by women. Put them into front-line combat roles doing combat tasks. And if the enemy uses knives, let them do hand to hand combat too.

    As Joi says “If women want all this equality to men it’s high time for them to share in the sacrifices of front line duty.

    Women constantly boast that they can do anything a man can do – and better. OK, let them prove it. Stand aside and let them go for it and die just like the eighteen year old boy. But please don’t continue to make excuses for them.

  • donnieboy57

    denise; were still waiting!!!!!!!!

    hello; men to dense. hello hello!

  • badger

    Bravo David.
    Back to you Denise. I am not saying what you have written is not credible but as David has said. Please post your citations.

  • David R. Usher

    Denise,

    re: “Perhaps most important, as Schlafly pointed out, the amendment had no “grandmother” clause that would have made the laws mandating husband-support continue to apply to those who had married under them. Thus, female full-time homemakers would, at least on paper, lose a major right on which they had depended. This led Schlafly to nickname the ERA “the men’s liberation amendment.””

    I have no idea where you are getting your quotes from. In fact, this article appears to be a disinformative, historical-revisionist attack on Phyllis Schlafly. I find no reference to any statement where Phyllis suggests that the ERA would cost women mandatory support, and no reference where she called it the “men’s liberation amendment”.

    It appears to me you are attempting to drive a wedge between the men’s movement and Phyllis.

    If you have citations for the above statements, please post them (cites should always be included if one is to be considered credible). If you fail to post exact cites, this article speaks for itself as just another piece of radical feminist disinformation.

  • scottkirk

    johnG..thank you sir for being bold enough to voice youre concerns…as they are legitimate military concerns…

  • JohnG

    - so even then women are INadequately prepped.

    oops.

  • JohnG

    Amfortas –

    You’ve clearly never been in the military and have no idea what the current operating environment is now.

    The machine guns you’re talking about are over 25lbs minus ammunition. The body armor you are required to wear is over 40lbs. A standard rifle, basic load, your helmet, webgear, bayonet, etc, are over 70lbs total – and thats not with a single thing on your back – like water and its hot over there now.

    The female standards in the Army are vastly different than the mens. The’ve at least six minutes more time to run two miles in. They have have to do 13 pushups to pass that part of an APFT, while a man’s minimum is 38. (They’re roughly equal in the situp department, but abs don’t do a damn thing in combat). As far as the basic equipment I mentioned above, when women do training roadmarches in the Army, the guidance is ‘no more than 30lbs or 25% of your body weight’ – so even then women are adequately prepped. Further, women are allowed up to 40% body fat where men cap at 24%.

    What you are talking about is that myth of “push button warfare” that is part of the reason we’re in the jam we’re in now, thinking we could win a war with fancy electronic gadgets and 500k strong army could “fight two hot wars and one low intensity conflict” – when the truth is that a 500k army can’t even handle Iraq. And… quite often, it is “knife fights” in Iraq – about every single day in some cities.

    My point being, if we required the women to do what the men do, you’d have a hell of a lot less more women in the Army and quite a few more dead ones.

  • mruffolo

    For approximately 10,000 years woman have not displayed leadership and strength to organize and fight against an aggressor nation.

    Today women, who desire to fight in the armed forces, do the same as they do in business market place. Women come to the organization that was founded and build by a man to complain that they are not leading or managing it.

    Feminists do not discuss the risk gap. Most women will not do a job that puts their lives at risk.

    Many men are leaders and risk injury almost instinctively for the last 10,000 years.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/denise-noe/ Denise Noe

    BobH said,

    Denise

    So the women can fly around in high-tech airplanes and/or remotely control high tech weaponry while the men are stuck doing the hands-on dirty work on the ground.

    There are lots of military jobs than women cannot do equally as well as men. What are military jobs that women are suited for, that can’t be done equally as well by men?

    (Denise) I don’t know of any. The military remains 85% men.

  • RestoringGuy

    It takes a special kind of deranged justification to actually want to die for a government that is doomed and inflicting its own death-by-wild-spending. On that the feminists show wise judgement, and we can expect nothing better than hypocrisy from them. We worry too much about the wrong enemies, Osama and some Washington Democrats who wage battles that can’t EVER be stopped. They will keep coming back, in some form or another. We all have liberals right next door behind this sickness, fueling the fire, and they are the real problem. They are the source. All these notions of equal deaths in battle is pretty irrelevant when all of these struggles are all, truth be told, for nothing.

    It is very counterproductive to hold out hope for a magical ERA “justice” solution. Those days are gone, like way back in the 70′s. The days of the privileged feminists are greatly prolonged the more the conservatives prop up this sick puppy of a government. Try and try, go ahead and use this bad method of coddling the system of corruption, and we only give feminists more power to attack us. We may as well give NOW all our money.

  • BobH

    Denise

    So the women can fly around in high-tech airplanes and/or remotely control high tech weaponry while the men are stuck doing the hands-on dirty work on the ground.

    There are lots of military jobs than women cannot do equally as well as men. What are military jobs that women are suited for, that can’t be done equally as well by men?

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/denise-noe/ Denise Noe

    steven deluca said,

    If American women truly honored male sacfifices then male deaths would be something some men would accept with honor. But to pretend that women sacrifice and men don’t then the idea that women should be protected from coming back in body bags is extremely offensive to me.

    I don’t think most people understand what they are saying about men when they say they couldn’t handle women dying in wars.

    (Denise) Hi Steven. I hope you’re doing well. The problem Phyllis Schlafly pointed was not that people can’t “handle women dying in wars.” Women have died in significant numbers in ever war since World War I and the beginning of major-league strategic bombing. There are few things more eminently non-discriminatory than a bomb! Women died in the blitzing of London and the bombing of Dresden and at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. So did children. So did the elderly and disabled of both sexes.
    If people couldn’t stand for women to die in war, WWI would really have been “the war to end all wars.”
    The problem is that the same size and strength differences that mean we have to sex-segregate most sports mean that in some pivotal military positions — particularly frontline infantry combat — women would not be as effective as soldiers as their men counterparts. THAT is why Schlafly so strongly opposes “equality” in the military.
    Of course, many things are becoming increasingly mechanized. As a result, women can — and do — play major roles in today’s military. Indeed, women have functioned in a variety of military positions since long before there was a second wave feminist movement.
    But there are SOME positions into which it is not realistic to put them and expect them to be effective.

  • Joi

    Women talk about equality up and down for decades, but when it comes to the topic regarding women in combat they scatter.

    If women want all this equality to men it’s high time for them to share in the sacrifices of front line duty.

    Women constantly talk about being oppressed and discriminated against, yet they never bring up the blatant discrimination regarding only men being required (allowed) by law to register for selective service.

    Oh no, we never will hear N.O.W. picketing the post offices for their right as women to register for selective service in which to end this blatant discrimination against women.

    Also, I’d like to point out the FACT that during World War II an enormous amount of the Red Army (RUSSIA) were women. Under Stalin everyone fought for mother Russia. If Russian women held their own against the German Nazi forces, why not other women????????????????

  • BobH

    By my rough calculations, between 100,000 and 150,000 draft men have been killed in combat since women got the vote. I figure that women, and only women, should be drafted into combat until a similar number of them have likewise died.

    To Amfortas

    You are absolutely wrong that upper body strength isn’t an absolute necessity for being a soldier. In fact, women’s deficiencies in this area is a big reason why many male soldiers don’t want their fellow soldiers to be women. The men end up doing all the grunt work while women just stand around and watch. Or the women get pregnant before combat starts.

    Read “The Kinder, Gentler Military”. It’s a bit out of date now, but it’s a good place to start.

  • amfortas

    he (Fred Schalfly) noted, “No military has ever won a war by sending women to its frontlines.”

    No military has ever lost one either. The fact is, it hasn’t been tried in any seriousness. The arguement that men’s superior strength is more than a woman’s is a nonsense arguement, an irrelevancy. It is bullets and flame throwers and rockets and tanks and artillery and planes and shells and bombs that kill, rarely hand to hand combat with knives.

    The average lad of eighteen, boot camp trained and sent to the front, would be no match for a 30 year old woman who has been in active service for a few months and has a few kills under her garter belt.

    It does not take super strength to man a machine gun or an artillery poiece or a tank. Fighter planes don’t need super strength. Ship’s guns work by pressing buttons. One doesn’t need to lug cannon-balls any more. If she can drive her Hummer around the streets of LA, she can friggin’ well drive one in Iraq or Afghanistan.

    What it takes is a willingness to do one’s duty and be prepared to die for one’s country. Women don’t want to. And the Mr Schlafly’s of the world have a chivalry that is well past its use-by date.

  • steven deluca

    If American women truly honored male sacfifices then male deaths would be something some men would accept with honor. But to pretend that women sacrifice and men don’t (In work, or war) or that Veteran’s days are for “shopping” – something most women seem to think is the focus – as long as male deaths don’t matter to women unless it’s their son or father or brother (A woman obeserving a war film said that the opening scene of men being slaughtered didn’t bother her much because they were anonomous men but later when a hero was killed she felt bad because she had gotten to know him) then the idea that women should be protected from coming back in body bags is extremely offensive to me.

    I don’t think most people understand what they are saying about men when they say they couldn’t handle women dying in wars. Equality isn’t something you can have with qualifiers. I know too many men who have been crippled from war and too many women who tell me that only women suffer from sexism. It’s hard for me to understand ERA while words about protecting women are always a part of the discussion. The callousness towards males is part of the unfair divorce courts, the easy to make rape and sexual harassment cases, the stiffer sentencing of males for similar crimes as females.

    There is no real desire for feminist women to have equality. The want the benefits and perks of men without the suffering and death or years in the work place required of men.

  • NHTom

    The ERA had multiple aspects useful to the left.
    1. By denying reality it can’t help but weaken the society, the country, the economy.
    2. Forcing women into combat underminds the military.
    3. Forcing women into combat will make more women anti-military – thus further undermining the military.
    4. By hurting women, and subjecting men to the tyrany of low expectations, the ERA would have forced more women to depend on the state. Women’s security would necessitate them supporting socialist politicians.

    The goal is a powerless population fully dependent on the state. Then the fun begins.

  • scottkirk

    youre married now…heres youre harness….

    now I,m by no means anti-marraige..but to look at what wev’e done to the holy marraige covenant…..some would find it….. distastefull…

  • scottkirk

    pardon the hasty writing…

  • scottkirk

    Is it the womens right to yolk a man into toil, and burden to the degree he acquires a average 6 year average early death rate?????


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