Blowback on Blowback
Nowhere in there do I say Darren Mack is right. The problem is, Glenn, that the system itself contributed mightily to the creation of Darren Mack, and countless others like him. They have removed hope from such men. I never turned into a Darren. But I had hope.
Andrea Yates? Open any phone book to the “W’s.” Women’s this, and Women’s that, and Women’s the other. Women have support. They have no excuse. Ever been to what passes for the government sponsored support system for displaced Dads? “How to get a job, shut up, pay your child support, and quit “intruding” into the lives of your ex and her children” is the soup of the day there.
I used to know a guy (Jeff, to have a name to use) who kept ol’ coon dogs for hunting. And all the time I knew him he complained how “mean” they were. It seems at least once a year he’d have to put one down for going after his kids. I never understood it until I went over there one afternoon and saw these kids tormenting the dogs. Throwing rocks, zapping them with stun guns, spraying them with water and all the time these dogs in the dog run, helpless against their abusers.
No longer did I wonder why these dogs went after the kids when they could.
Were the dogs mean? Yep. Were they unfit for company? Yep. Did they need to be put down? Absolutely. He’d have been foolish to do otherwise – dogs were going after all the kids, not just the ones tormenting them.
The $64,000 questions, though, are: Were these innately bad dogs? Did the kids have any responsibility for what they did? Did he have any responsibility for what he didn’t do – namely, STOP THEM?
It is possible to say – at the same time – that these dogs were vicious animals which needed to be put down, AND ALSO to say “You know, you need to stop your kids from torturing your dogs and maybe these things won’t happen on such a regular basis.”
It doesn’t require approval of the behavior to see that it is a logical consequence. It doesn’t require approval of a dog biting a kid to acknowledge the dog had a right to be mad at the kids.
And what you’re sounding like here is the guy’s wife, who never went out to the dogs, took care of them, or had anything to do with them, calling the rest of the dogs (Who never bit any of the kids, but just growled at them and didn’t want sod-all to do with them) “mean-ass dogs that Jeff should get rid of” without seeing that they are really good dogs who are just tired of being poked at with sticks,who are exercising commendable restraint, and who have a right to not like the kids.
Darren Mack is a mean dog who has to be put down – or locked away. ANd as true as that may be, I’m also sorry as hell we live in a society that lets the Darren Macks of the world get poked at with sticks, pelted with rocks, sprayed with the hose, chased with noisemakers, have firecrackers thrown at them, and zapped with stun-guns.
The two positions are not mutually exclusive. To suggest that they are is a false dilemma and just bad logic.
And by the same token, it is neither condoning nor applauding the actions of Darren Mack to observe that “Hey – maybe if you didn’t let your kids torment the dogs, you wouldn’t have to shoot so many of them.”
Or you can take Jeff’s attitude that they are only males dogs who will breed more, and bullets are cheap. Of course, to go along with that, last I heard of Jeff, his kids were hooligans who were mostly in and out of trouble with the law themselves, and didn’t know how to behave.
Huh. Wonder why that is?
Were Darren Mack an isolated aberration (Okay, statisticaslly, people like Darren Mack, since we live in a country of 300 million people) this would be one thing. Even with this, it’s possible Darren Mack was a mean sonofabitch from the get-go, even before this. I don’t know, there are conflicting reports. But you, yourself, acknowledge that there is also a considerable amount of men who inflict violence, driven to the brink by the family court system, by being drive out of the lives of their children.
The only difference between them and those like Darren Mack is that their violence is directed inward, not outward. It is violence nonetheless, and not the least of which the consequences of that being an increase in the chance of THEIR children having mental problems and committing suicide. This is quite arguably a cowardly and detestable act. I live with bouts of suicidal major depression (Though unrelated to my divorces – but they don’t help) so I do know – suicide is an act of violence. It affects not just you, but the people around you.
So what is it? Are these men driven to their violence by the abuses of their person at the hands of the system because it is socially more acceptable to kill yourself? But the Darren Macks are undeserving of any sympathy because their violence manifests in politically incorrect fashions?
Someone who commits suicide does have an impact on people around him – often especially their children. It is indirect, to be sure, but it is tangible. Killing yourself does not just affect you. It is as well an act of violence, with effects on others.
You seem to have sympathy for men who commit the violent act of suicide – and I’d hardly accuse you of advocating suicide, endorsing it, or calling for it as an act of protest or some such. You seem to be able to say “These men need help and hope so we don’t have more of them,” and I don’t notice anyone saying “There goes that darn Glenn Sacks, glorifying suicide and encouraging people to shoot themselves on the courthouse steps.”
And you know why you can have that type of sympathy for them? Because if you are like 90% or more of the people in the world, you have had that long dark night of the soul. You have had that “Maybe the world would be better off without me” moment. You’ve stood on the edge, stepped back, and now realize how easy it is to find yourself there even though it goes against the grain of everything you thought you knew about yourself. You’ve realized that such a thing lives even in you.
And that is where “you don’t get it.” You don’t stop at condemning the giving in - you condemn the temptation itself.
And make no mistake – whether you sit in a room with the barrel of the gun at your own head, or sit in a bell tower, the desperation and hopelessness is the same – as well as it being taking the easy way out. The difference between the two is only one of degree – not of principle.
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Stumble It!
I suppose violence must be considered when all pacifist methods have failed. I do not see us having utilized all passive methods.
We have such a small movement, and we do not have the backing of the average man or woman. I think that this cannot be fought as a war, bad guys against good, because there are a few extremists pulling strings and a whole lot of innocent men and ambivilant women doing the ground work for those few. We want to take out the few and leave the innocent unscathed. The goal, also, is not to ‘win’ against women but to afford men the same freedoms and support women now enjoy. We want to balance the scale, not tip them the other way.
I think we need to make more of an effort to sway the average man’s thinking than it is to do anything else. If the average man woke up this abuse would not last a day. It exists because the average man buys into the feminist propaganda. The politicians and judges follow their voters, and the voters follow what they believe. We need to change what they believe to change the law and policy.
In comment #41, WLS wrote:
1. Glenn Sacks does urge us to communicate with legislators, and with government. For example, he urged his readership to write to the California Judicial Council’s Domestic Violence Practice, since public input was requested on the “Draft Guidelines and Recommended Practices for Improving the Administration of Justice in Domestic Violence Cases.” When VAWA was going through reauthorization, Glenn also urged his readership to contact legislators. It’s important that someone like Glenn, who is plugged in enough to recognize when a letter writing campaign would make the most impact, notifies his readership to speak up.
2. Glenn does this full time. So does lobbyist Michael Robinson of the California Alliance for Families and Children (CAFC). It is because of full-timers that attention can be brought to bear when something important is happening in government, and conferences be organized. For example, the Men’s Equality Conference this July, or the educational conference “From Ideology to Inclusion: Evidence-Based Policy and Intervention in Domestic Violence” in February ‘08, put on by the National Family Violence Legislative Resource Center and the CAFC. Supporting these efforts with financial donations does make a huge difference in influencing the landscape of attitudes and opinions among those in political, academic, and bureaucratic high positions.
3. Since when is it preferable to RESTRICT our activities to letter writing campaigns? You would have us stop donating to our comparatively few full time activists and writers, and instead engage in good-old-fashioned letter writing campaigns from common laypeople? Restricting our political activity to that form of activism would be a step backward!
4. I believe it is true that WLS (a.k.a. William Spence) is merely demonstrating sour grapes against those who are still in the game, making a difference, as he used to be involved back in the 1990s as a member of Coalition for Parents Support. Since he receives no adulation today, he is apparently bitter, as Michael Robinson recently illustrated in his comment post on July 23.
William, quit your yapping and hating, and instead let both the professionals and the lay people do their best to change this system. You are not the leader of anything, although you could be if your focus was on achieving real change, rather than diverting much-deserved focus from the standard-bearers and onto yourself.
*Irrelevance deleted*
My efforts are served by anyone who uses their own intelligence, and in some way _acts_.
Who’s gone into family court recently, or conferred with a IV-D agency, and found themselves in a better position than they were in last year? Until there’s a positive answer to that question, it doesn’t make sense to begin to talk about `results.’
So when is the point where violence would be acceptable? Does one actually have to wait for cattle cars and camps before they say “Talking – maybe it isn’t working?” Because I am afraid when things get that bad, we’re at a point where resistance would be impossible.
And no, we’re not there yet; but at some point in this spectrum we have to have a breaking point.
WLS writes: there seems to be confusion between what’s `leadership’ and `politics,’ and what’s fundamentally entertainment, showbiz, and media-personality cultism. I’m disappointed, appalled, and alarmed by the credulousness I’m seeing. He’s not getting great results: in some departments he’s hurting us all. He seems to be successfully duping you on the plane of fantasy and hype: is that where it really counts, what you really want?
Note to all–WLS is obsessively jealous and envious of Sachs and anybody else in the movement who is successful. WLS’s analysis of men’s movement politics is always very simple–if the person is successful, he criticizes him. That’s the extent of WLS’s political thought.
WE HATE IT WHEN OUR FRIENDS BECOME SUCCESSFUL
We hate it when our friends become successful
We hate it when our friends become successful
Oh, look at those clothes
Now look at that face, it’s so old
And such a video !
Well, it’s really laughable
Ha, ha, ha …
We hate it when our friends become successful
And if they’re Northern, that makes it even worse
And if we can destroy them
You bet your life we will
Destroy them
If we can hurt them
Well, we may as well …
It’s really laughable
Ha, ha, ha …
You see, it should’ve been me
It could’ve been me
Everybody knows
Everybody says so
They say :
“Ah, you have loads of songs
So many songs
More songs than they’d stand
Verse
Chorus
Middle eight
Break, fade
Just listen …”
La, la-la, la-la
TBQ said: “Gonz, I agree that someday down the road we may need to resort to violence. My issue is that violence is the easy way out.”
Jen, you are thoughtful and pacific, but you need to think that one through a bit more. Violence comes in many forms and direct violence is rarely easy. The direct, physical violence that is perhaps more associated with men – in the popular imagination though clearly not in fact – comes usually at great personal sacrifice and cost. Suicide by cop is hardly an easy way out. If you think it is, I won’t encourage you to try it.
There is great difficulty in combatting the violence inherent in the Courts. There is huge difficulty in combatting the violence that women display toward men at both the individual level and at a societal level. Our culture is immensly violent toward men, particularly fathers and women play the ‘Let’s you and him, Fight’ game all the time. Men are abjured to contain their movement toward violence – this whole conversation is an example ot that – particularly against women who can use violence against men – even the men in their own family – at whim without censure, indeed often with applause, but there are no public or societal abjuration of women’s violence or the violence of Court officers, beaurocrats, even feminazi professors.
All avenues for men to chose a different approach from a violent one are closed off. Even trying to argue a point with a woman today is termed ‘verbal abuse’, leading to arrest and the bloody judges again. Argue with a Judge and a man gets thrown in jail to be at the mercy of the really physically violent.
I do not advocate violence – but I do see it as inevitable. If an easier way out is to be found it will be through the wholesale change in public and private (gender) attitude and practice, and that is still heading in the wrong direction.
WLS..show me where youre efforts are more successfull, and I might contribute to youre efforts….
I’m quite simpleton in this respect…I wanna see what I’m paying for!!!
He’s not getting great results: in some departments he’s hurting us all.
He seems to be successfully duping you on the plane of fantasy and hype: is that where it really counts, what you really want?
This is America..the greatest most powerfull nation the world has ever known…
(but is being poisened as of recently)..but anyway..
We live in a free enterprise society, and glenn is earning his living, and getting great results…and should be paid according to his efforts..
The more positive results Glenn gets, the more I personally am willing to open my wallet…1+1=2 simple math…
If their are other men making a similar impact, I’lle throw a few bucks in their direction also…
our troops need well equiped supply lines or they don’t fight..
The question that ought to be asked regarding the “profit motive” should be, to what extent we are getting a straight story from those whose priority is self-interest? There’s nothing wrong with someone making a living any way they can, but the rest of us probably shouldn’t be letting our interests in social reform be compromised for the sake of a few individuals’ businesse pursuits.
Moreover, there seems to be confusion between what’s `leadership’ and `politics,’ and what’s fundamentally entertainment, showbiz, and media-personality cultism.
I’m disappointed, appalled, and alarmed by the credulousness I’m seeing.
Well, I am a woman, and it is natural for me to get emotional…..;-)
biscuit queen…men are competitive…it’s natural, and neccessary…so don’t get so emotional about it…
I feel we need a little competitive spirit..
to see who’s going to be bold enough to call out the feminist levithan, and disarm her before she kills and maims even more than she allready has..
And biscuit queen.. this site is the most cutting edge think tank for mens rights in the world… Iv’e gotten many ideas for my book from these blogs!!!
Gonz, I agree that someday down the road we may need to resort to violence. My issue is that violence is the easy way out. Big bang for your buck. We haven’t even really tried true activism yet, not in any big way. Problem is, it still will be a few doing the action and the many sitting back and criticizing. Say we did start blowing away judges and hacking up our spouses. The same folks who lambast Glenn and you will simply find something else to bitch about. Humans are predictable. Those that do will do, those that don’t, won’t. Making the action violence as opposed to writing to our legislators will not change that.
I think the internet is in a way our worst enemy. We sit here feeling like we are doing something and meeting each other, yet how many of us know each other? How many have gotten together and met face to face? I am so discouraged with the infighting, and I am discouraged that even when I tried to get people to meet face to face they would not. When Dave and I went to the Men’s Equality Congress 2 years ago it was so POWERFUL to shake Glenn’s hand, to share an umbrella with Warren Farrell, to be able to give Beene, and Tom Ellis, and Thomas, and Dr E and others hugs and look in their eyes and discuss these issues which effect our lives. We NEED that. Yet here we are, on one of the few visable boards, shredding each other. Gonz, you have been cordial, and to the point, but others post things which simply tear us further apart.
I am waiting with bated breath for this years congress. I need to feel like there are faces to this movement. I need to be recharged in my enthusiasm for this cause.
This is not some cold, philosophical exercise in logic (TB?). This is not a groupthink or a race to see who is the most extreme, or the most active, or a judgemental scale on which we find some wanting in their passion. We are each flawed humans with stories to tell, and we need to meet each other. People can sit behind their anonymous screen and spew what they like, but if you met that person face to face, would you say the same thing, or would you take his hand as a fellow man?
Sorry, Gonz, I am using your post as a soap box. I am just feeling so absolutely dejected about where we are all *not* heading. Then to see you and Glenn, two of my heros, not only disagreeing but watching all the others pick sides, blow the disagreement out of proportion and spilling it onto many threads……
I really wish you were coming to the congress Gonz. I really do.