Excellent post above. Joyanna seems to think that she should just ignore me, simply because I obviously don’t approve of her tactics, and can easily show her where they’re all fouled up.

The major point Elder, I, and cons are trying to show everyone is that very little importance is achieved by those who try to show what women CAN do. One of the most earth-shaking contributions to this whole mess was your list of thinking habits that produce higher inventiveness.

Were you focused 100% on proving what women can do? Absolutely not. In fact, you wanted to improve what people can do, so you posted the list.

First, let me explain. I had to go back and read the previous thread(s) because as someone pointed out, there was a background to this whole argument that I was not aware of when I made my comment and ventured into the fray. So I was focusing on a particular remark that you made and was not aware of the “big picture”.

Anyway, you wrote: “Hedy Lamarr was considered in her time the most beautiful woman in the world. It was her misfortune to be born with a brain AND looks. I can’t imagine what she had to go through.”

“Since men NEVER, ever, ever, have that problem … they can not even relate to it.”

Joyanna, in my own humble estimation, I have the same “problem” as Hedy. Looks and brains. Life is tough. Men envy my brains and women think I’m a brainless jock. Women cannot relate to this problem.

On a more serious note, I do sympathize with women who have to put up with guys who only care about their looks. Unfortunately, some guys are like that. They give the rest of us a bad name.

Now about your friend Jack. Since you seem to be the only one who speaks to Jack, I have no way to verify what Jack actually said. That’s why I quoted the Wikipedia article on Hedy. That is a source anyone on this thread can refer to if they want to. Quoting Jack is your prerogative but you can’t expect us to take that as the last word on Hedy. It’s more convincing to use a public source rather than a private communication that the rest of us are not privy to. We have no way to refute or confirm what you say Jack said. Even if we trust your motives implicitly, we cannot verify if you correctly interpreted Jack, took all his comments in context, or asked him all the right questions. Therefore, it would be more effective to use a public source to prove your points. Do we even need Jack? Is there a shortage of public information about Hedy?

You wrote: “Now, back to Hedy … her husband brought up the problem with the torpedoes. It was stumping the entire governmental body of engineers. And Hedy thought up the solution.”

*All* the government’s engineers were working on it and not one could find a solution? I find that a little hard to believe. Did your private source, Jack, tell you this?

You wrote: “You’re really stretching it to say that if not for her husband she wouldn’t have known about it, therefore she gets no credit for it.”

I did not say that she deserves no credit. She probably deserves some credit, but not all the credit. I’m saying she seems to have had a lot of help.

As I understand it, it went something like this: Her husband brought the problem to her attention and explained what the problem was (by the way, a well-defined problem is half solved). Then she *and* George came up with a concept to solve the problem, and then she and George left it to the actual engineers to make “her” concept a practical reality.

I’m not saying women can’t invent. I’m saying men are better at it. I’m also saying that Hedy is not a good example of a women who can invent because she needed a lot of help to make “her” idea a practical reality. Your point would have been easier to make convincingly if you had chosen another example. It’s not 100% clear (from the Wikipedia article) if she or George Antheil came up with the basic concept, so in a way you are helping to prove Elder George’s point that it’s hard to find a woman who came up with a “conceptual” invention.

You wrote: “The proof of that ‘belief that woman are basically stupid’ can be found from the many comments.”

I’m not saying women are not as intelligent as men. Men and women have different intelligences. They also have different inclinations and different temperaments. All of these things — not just intelligence — are part of the inventive process. Thus, in general, men are better inventors than women. Women have a talent and *proclivity* for nurturing. They are not drawn to invention to the same degree as men, even if many of them have the intelligence to do it.

I think women are often fixated on trying to prove what a women *can* do. Perhaps that is part of what’s going on here. But to me the question is more about what a woman *should* do. Will she be happier in the lab than she would be in the nursery? I think not. And what about the guy? Is he supposed to nurture the kids while she invents or pursues some other traditionally masculine occupation? Would he really find that fulfilling? I see this as a role reversal which is not good for anyone.

Women seek male approval, but because most men are not aware of how strong this need is, the women don’t get as much as they need. The feminists seem to think they will get it by proving they are as smart as men. So they set out to prove they can do what a man can do. So they enter the man’s world. But what men want is not a woman who acts like a man, but one who cheerfully does what comes naturally to feminine women.

Finally, and this is off topic, but I can’t overlook the fact that you quoted Einstein. People are always quoting Einstein. Einstein is not really a reputable source because he was a plagiarist who stole most of “his” ideas from other people. For example, he was not the first to come up with E = m c^2. Olinto de Pretto and Frederick Soddy (a Nobel prize winner in Chemistry), among others, beat him to it.

P.S. I love your name too.

boys are raised sink or swim style and learn to make things happen…
girls are raised into an entitlement belief situation..and if things just don’t “happen” for them in the entitlement style they were raised in ….then they cry “victim”

I’m all about changeing the way we raise our girls/women away from the entitlement belief system…If there weren’t so many entitlement women…some would then be forced into struggleing to survive..and would probibly learn to be more creative at it..

The enormity of that statement is overwhelming to me. And, is it not insulting to the vast majority of women? Is in not the ultimate “stuck-up, snotty, bitch copout” (i.e. “People would take me seriously if I wasn’t beautiful, if I was more like you”?)

Remember the commercial “Don’t hate me because I’m beautiful”? Or the newer one “My husband calls me his ‘trophy wife’”? They make my wife want to kick the crap out of these women.

Imagine if you were a man with a new “idea” for a circuit thing a ma jig, and you have to find funding, or maybe you want to license it,

Now, imagine the guy that needs to approve this is gay, and can’t get his mind off your….whatever…and besides, he thinks your a female dog and wants you bad.
Kinda hard to present any product in that atmosphere.

Trying to get her product on the market, or information, a woman has to deal with the first impressions stuff. Where as a man when he first meets another man…doesn’t have to deal with not being taken seriously because of his ‘gender.”

The proof of that “belief that woman are basically stupid” can be found from the many comments.

And I on the other hand could also say that YOU are not as intelligent as Hedy because she would have understood right away what I meant, where you did not.

I was talking about “business.” The world of business.

How did you get the “ball-busting” stuff out of my simple statement?

And thanks for being civil about your….”bra-busting,”
hey, I just started a new word.

There’s bra-bursting, bra-busting, bra-booting, bra-beating, bra-bontiful…

Feel free to fill in….

Joyanna — It’s quite unfair to complain about the first violation while cashing in on the second, don’t you think?

So, anything I say about you (your authorial persona) … you’re off the existential hook, so to speak.

But, I find some of your opinions offensive. (Sadly, I cannot simply call 911 and have the VAWA police pick you up, just because “I’m afraid” of you….)

(JA) – “Since men NEVER, ever, ever, have that problem…they can not even relate to it. The reality is, a woman has to sacrifice a personal life entirely to go the distance, where a man usually doesn’t.”

This is beyond silly. The majority of men are married or in-a-relationship wage-slaves, who sacrifice their personal life to what amounts to a daily lobotomy. The sad reality is that most men actually look forward to work, because it is a sanctuary from the ball-busting, nagging, overweight, narcissistic cupcake … errrr… soulmate … he has to go home to. (That sounded a bit harsh. I meant castrating skanky bloated entitlement princess…)

Joy, it’s a sad fact, but …. Hedy would have dismissed you with a wink and a sly grin.

She had everything you probably lack and likely desire. (Maybe you have it all, but this is an interrogation …. OK?)

And it’s not your fault.

Modern American women are simply not sexy, or desirable, or funny.

At least you have the right role model; although virtually impossible for any feminist-indoctrinated woman to achieve today. (You modern gals have lost that power… of the actual feminine…)

It’s kinda like guys wanting to be John Wayne or Marlon Brando.

Nobody just can’t go home again….

You write eloquently, girl.

Don’t mind my trivial critiques. It’s my way of expressing respect.

Just keep polishing your craft.

I am very sure your distinguished ancestors have often enjoyed a good chuckle at the many episodes in which you gave the herd a good healthy and much-needed stirring up. Probably in agony with side stitches right about now. A guy can only laugh so much, ya’ know.

(1) You state, “Women have always been told that they can’t do it, never will, don’t try, so they give up sooner. Not to mention the child-bearing years do take at least 18 years out of your life. And that’s a long time. BUT…that doesn’t mean that women can’t be taught, if they wanted to learn, and that’s the “point” being discussed here. Are women capable…given the right time and place, and attitude?”

The masculine inventive nature doesn’t need PERMISSION to exercise itself. You’re pretending that inventiveness comes via social permission; that people will become smarter if we’ll all only “let them” exercise their creativity by “protecting them from discouraging messages.” But it doesn’t work that way, especially since many, if not most, inventions are created in the “Middle Finger” spirit – the sense that the inventor is tired of BOTH the people who have said it couldn’t be done AND the world’s repeated blocking of his knowledge through one failed attempt after another.

Invention comes NOT from “social permission” but from DIRECT interACTION with the world. (You’ll notice that it’s not “interTALK” nor “interDISCUSSION” but interACTION…) DaVinci discovered basic ideas of flight by taking REAL sticks and putting them in REAL water in order to see the REAL effects.

So, given that no one needs permission to interACT with the world with an inventive frame of mind, your “social permission” approach just isn’t going to work. When the feminine insecure force surrenders to words of discouragement, it’s not a tragedy! It’s just simply the law of nature – that feminine insecurity invents absolutely nothing.

(Instead, it always cockblocks the masculine inventive force.)

(2) Step One: Elder writes Pictures and Points to illustrate the difference between the masculine creative force and the feminine insecure force.

Steps Two, Three, Four: Your comments on Pictures and Points, your silly “God – Man” thread, and this equally silly thread.

The Question: Do your articles reflect the masculine creative force by encouraging Elder to go forth in to the world with his vision in mind? Or do they instead reflect the feminine insecure force by discouraging him from acting out his message until YOU give him “social permission” to do so?

If they don’t shape up, well, so what. Even the Elderly and Hairy can learn from differences of opinion and to your’s and nobody’s opinions I will say ‘Thank You Ma’am’, on their behalf, if not behest.

By the way. If I had been around in Hedy’s day, you might have had some competition. She could have had me, you know.

or one can be an inneffective raving lunatic….

a pearle of wisdom…

what washington would rule the current feminist anti-male hysteria….would he call this respectfull, civil behavoir???