Denying Spiritual Man

2007-07-18
By

paul The apostle Paul prophesied the time would come when man’s “conscience [would be] seared with a hot iron.” (1)

Part of that searing, sad to say, has come in the form of a modern secular state that has, plain as day, utilized curriculum mandates, accreditation standards, and block grants to impose one standard, and one standard alone – in this thing, that the social ‘sciences’ and natural ‘sciences’ must deny the true nature of man, deny that man is something more than a mere compilation of biological processes.

In 1790, English statesmen Edmund Burke, in his famous denunciation of the atheist run, socialist inspired French Revolution, declared “We know, and it is our pride to know, that man is by his constitution a religious animal; that atheism is against, not only our reason, but our instincts.” (2)

Burke knew, what every honest, reflective man must know, that man is not just a physical being, but a spiritual being, and as such, that man is not just blessed with a collection of ‘common’ physical senses, but endowed by his Maker with a collection of uncommon Higher senses – among them, reason and conscience.

Twenty nine years earlier, ‘A Well-Wisher to Mankind’ (Massachusetts born, John Perkins), wrote in his 1771, Essay on the Nature, Source and Extent of Moral Freedom:

Every human creature has a sense of right and wrong, ought and ought not, which are evidently intended to remind him of duty and obligation; and without which he could have no idea of it. It is as really a natural sense, as the external ones of sight, feeling, tasteing &c. As constitutional as the other internal ones of honor, harmony, benevolence, &c. (3)

A “natural,” “constitutional” sense that reminds of us “right and wrong, ought and out not,” “duty and obligation;” could it be?

Founder Thomas Jefferson thought so. While mentoring his nephew Peter Carr as regards his education, he noted in a letter dated August 10, 1787:

He who made us would have been a pitiful bungler, if he had made the rules of our moral conduct a matter of science. For one man of science, there are thousands who are not. What would have become of them? Man was destined for society. His morality, therefore, was to be formed to this object. He was endowed with a sense of right and wrong, merely relative to this. This sense is as much a part of his nature, as the sense of hearing, seeing, feeling; it is the true foundation of morality. … The moral sense, or conscience, is as much a part of man as his leg or arm. It is given to all human beings in a stronger or weaker degree, as force of members is given them in a greater or less degree. It may be strengthened by exercise, as may any particular limb of the body. This sense is submitted, indeed, in some degree, to the guidance of reason; but it is a small stock which is required for this: even a less one than what we call common sense. State a moral case to a ploughman and a professor. The former will decide it as well, and often better than the latter, because he has not been led astray by artificial rules. (4)

jeffersonJefferson was counseling his nephew about what two prophets of God once charged, as the necessity of “circumscribing all truth into one great whole.” (5) If you are studying man, and daring to call it science, denying the reality of his spiritual nature, and the existence of a conscience, such a science is artificial indeed.

But it’s more than that. There is a danger involved. When Jefferson spoke of artificiality in learning circles, his voice was a voice of testimony against a history of state imposed educational establishments that had stifled freedom of religion, speech, press, and assembly, and with them, the march of truth, so as to hold the masses in darkness by design.

For this cause: Despots have always known that disconnecting man from his kinship with the King of the Universe, the Great and Eternal Sovereign of all men, and with the spirit that God put in man, is vital to any plan to hold man down. For no man who truly understands his pedigree, and his potentiality as a joint heir with Christ, is a prime candidate to be a slave to any man or any state – and that’s the point.

Atheism, then, or the separation of science from any possible connection, however remote, to the Christian faith, and men of faith, becomes part of the modus operandi in despotic states, or for states heading in that direction.

Burke knew all about this agenda. He observed:burke

“[T]he mind will not endure a void”; and so the intent is to empty it, and then fill it up again with “some uncouth, pernicious, and degrading superstition.” (6)

The “uncouth, pernicious, and degrading superstition” was the byproduct of political ambition. It was Europe’s first leap into the arms of a new revolutionary order, socialism, whose Utopian goal it was and is to impose a top down control on all things, especially in education, in order to usher in their godless version of a Heaven on Earth. “Uncouth, pernicious and degrading,” because the truth of the matter – in practice – was that this new religion resembled something more like a “riot,” a “drunken delirium,” a “hot spirit drawn out of the alembic of hell,” and always will. (7)

It is a point of interest, if not confusion for many of us, how it is that there is absolute freedom in the halls of academia for some lines of thought, and certainly for every sort of debauchery, and yet a fierce intolerance for the things of God, for appeals to man’s moral conscience, or even to the existence of a conscience.

Burke provides a frank answer, as disconcerting as it may be. Pulling a lesson from history, about how the aristocracy of Venice got away with imposing “so heavy … [a] yoke” on her subjects, he observed:

[T]he nobles have been obliged to enervate the spirit of their subjects by every sort of debauchery; they have denied them the liberty of reason, and they have made them amends by what a base soul will think a more valuable liberty, by not only allowing, but encouraging them to corrupt themselves in the most scandalous manner. They consider their subjects as the farmer does the hog he keeps to feast upon. He holds him fast in his sty, but allows him to wallow as much as he pleases in his beloved filth and gluttony.

Meanwhile,

The ruling nobility are no less afraid of one another than they are of the people; and, for that reason, politically enervate their own body by the same effeminate luxury by which they corrupt their subjects. They are impoverished by every means which can be invented; and they are kept in a perpetual terror by the horrors of a state inquisition. (8)

Sounds like University 101 to me. Unlimited freedom to debauch, to promote the false and unseemly – side by side with “perpetual terror by the horrors of a state inquisition” for stating, teaching, or discussing that which is politically incorrect.

Think about it. It’s happening here. History is repeating itself. Conscience is being suppressed, religion crushed, the true nature of man denied in almost every academic circle, and all of this in the name of a “more valuable liberty.”

The questions we ought to be asking ourselves are: Why have we agreed to this? Why are we playing along? What has been the price of our negligence, to our children, our neighbor’s children, to truth, and to the nation at large? And what will yet be the price if we fail to be men and women of virtue, and turn the tide now, today?

The good news is, such a denial of the true nature of man “cannot prevail long.” (9) Burke taught that too. I agree. There is an awakening going on. As a member of the new media, I have seen it, felt it, and been part of it. As a well known fictional Evil Emperor once said, ‘there is a disturbance in the force,’ and it ‘could destroy us.” He was right. You and I, if we do our small part, can help check and then route the Secular Empire we face, and then remake a better, brighter, more blessed nation, a nation that encourages its children and citizens to stay in touch with, and be true to, their conscience, that part of their being which is as natural a sense to them as seeing, hearing, tasting, and touching.

Mensnewsdaily.com contributor is a pundit at Silver Eddy Award Winner, NewsMax.com, associate professor of political economy at George Wythe College, the author of the highly praised inspirational novel “Dark Rose,”and the editor of the Liberty Letters.

Footnotes:

1. 1 Timothy 4:2

2. Kramnick, Isaac, editor. The Portable Edmund Burke, Penguin Books, New York, New York, 1999, from Burke’s essay, Reflections on the Revolution in France, p. 453.

3. Hyneman, Charles S., and Lutz, Donald S. American Political Writing during the Founding Era: 1760-1805, Volume I, Liberty Press, Indianapolis, 1983, p. 149.

4. Cousin, Norman, editor. In God We Trust: The Religious Beliefs and Ideas of the American Founding Fathers, Harper and Brothers Publishers, New York, 1958, p. 127.

5. Ludlow, Victor L. Principles and Practices of the Restored Gospel, Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1992 (statement attributed to Presidents Joseph Smith and Joseph F. Smith) p. 139.

6. Kramnick, p. 453.

7. Ibid.

8. Ibid., p. 45, from Burke’s 1756 essay, A Vindication of Natural Society.

9. Kramnick, p. 453.


42 views

  • chas
  • scottkirk

    A+ on that piece man!!!

  • http://libertyletters.mensnewsdaily.com Steve Farrell

    Scottkirk: thank you! Chas: something you’re doing?

  • chas

    Steve: I saw his guy in a discussion and thought he was making some good points about why women are more comfortable in US churches then men. I’ve had some time off work and have been listening to all the religious programming. The only ones I have heard who are even getting close to describing the feminism problem are this guy in post 1, Father Corapi, and the charismatics who say they battling the spirit of Jezebel in the churches. Nobody I heard is desperate enough yet to say we need to return to man’s authority over the women, to stop the breakdown of marriage. The Catholics are learning a hard expensive lesson about what happens when you church is guided by psychology instead of the bible. The rest are desperate for revival but don’t realize that if revival came it would make things better for a few months and everyone would drift back to what they were before because we have lost the disciplines in life to maintain spirituality, both the need for self-discipline and the right to discipline others. Christianity is something that requires many years of obeying before people can understand the big picture and learn to love it.

  • Artfldgr

    I would say that obey is the wrong word… All of this can be tied to a crisis in faith and that we no longer practice faith, and like someone who never exercises have become weak in its use. feminists have removed womens faith in their mates and the system as it is to provide for them. the men have lost faith in the women and the state. the state has lost faith that good men can see to their own lives.

    faith must be practiced in order to believe in the unseen forces at work, if one doesnt want to work real hard to understand them all (that are known). so when economists talk about the invisable hand, the crisis between the two economics lines (socialism/capitalism) is one of faith. capitalists have faith in natural forces, and trust them the way we trust gravity. Socialists are materialists (despite their moral proseletysing), they are always on about the mateiral conditions, and that only adjusting those things leads to happiness etc. however, poor people are often decidedly happier than those with more, especially in our faithless society.

    socialists legislate control over the material as a means of controling that which is immaterial. moods, percieved position, etc… they look to the material to mediate their lives. like a lazy person, they think they become more productive if they have more given to them. they look at the productive and they think the productive are productive because what they have, not who they are. so a person is never successful by their fortitude, skill, self faith, faith in their understanding, etc… if they get ahead its because of the circular argument that they got ahead, so taking the magic ‘things’ away from them and granting them to others will then give others the magic ‘power’.

    its a form of shamanistic thinking… in which the world is imbued with things that have magical properties that come from their forms. so guns kill, and people are influences by their manna to act in ways in which they wouldnt withot that form in their presence. and money is magical too, it makes people act bad, even though evil doesnt exist. logical thinking is magical, cause there is no logical reason that logic should exist (nor math technically). success is magical… if we can get the money, the scepter, the office, the position, the status, the name tag, and so on… we would be magically proficien too..

    but religion teaches you that nothing is really magical except one thing, and that is magical only in faith. that the world is too complex and too interwoven for one to comprehend things at all levels and at all times, and that what happens faithfully is the best at all times. its just a glass is half full message that despite ills and things, the human bias towards good, means that we have the best we can have at all times.

    now without that faith and such, we have no bias for good. and with no bias for good permeating we have no reason for faith…

    its kind of like watching an engine run… you can remove oil, and you can remove fuel and it still runs. oil is social lubrication, and fuel is faith… when you take those things away, moral momentum keeps the machine rolling along. and one can argue that the machine will work on an empty tank, and ignore the conservative argument on principles and say that the machine is running on whats in the pipes and when that goes, it will grind to a halt.

    socialists dont see that the machine needs more than the minimum to run… that it cant adapt if it cant move… and the secular have that same problem… they constrict the movemetn in their desire to control the world for after all… god is dead, and neitsche is dead, and there is no one to show the light in the darkness any more… the invisable and the realm of faith has withered, and so we must control… if not, we might spin off the surface of the earth for its great rotation.

    i am hoping that some here can see that religion is not a left over, and thats it is needed as long as those who dont practice it dont have embodied in them the outcomes that religions biases the system towards (as does cultures).

    religion is a buffer… it lets the genius sit next to the less smart and the two be able to meet… after all, the control of those secular elitists is really stemming from their contempt that their fellow man is not as good as they are, and must be brought to heel in order to shine. while the teachings of religions say that one mustent do this because each of us are valuable because the god (archtype map) we believe in wouldnt waste their time making useless things (because he/she is like us and we dont waste our time and feel what we make is important).

    from that small example you get things like team hoyt [http://www.teamhoyt.com/] – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4B-r8KJhlE- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flRvsO8m_KI //

    in contrast to secular cultures message from things like “salton sea” or “million dollar baby”, where the live not intended is not worth living (forget about the life examined!)

    i am handicapped… not as bad as mr hoyt by a long shot, in fact, you wouldnt know i was handicapped, because my parents had faith, and were FREE to choose what they would do for their child. the reason i made bronx science is because i was handicapped and spent a lot of my time away from people and studying. speech classes were important.. i worked real hard to read lips… rather than be put in the classes where people are stunted, we fought to be in the same classes with everyone else… though that didnt matter after we showed that not only did i pass, but i blew the curve.

    so team hoyt has a special place in my heart… watch that first video (after the hoyt website)… if that father was secular, his child would have been in an institution given up for adoption… after all, today they say… think about your children… usually before they destroy their lives… but hey… a life not lived by intent is worthless right? there is nothing higher than the will of god, and of course the secular consider man, each man, the highest form… they, like milton the satan character in the keanu reeves movie, they are humanists!!! and while mortal man is restricted from the (assumed) better pleasured of evil, debasement, and self aggrandisment, envy, sloth, and so on… secular gods, each man that doesnt believe in a higher something, are those gods that cant be restricted.

    heaven away from earth is a carrot for man… what happens when the donkey catches and eats the carrot? he doesnt plow, there is no sow, they all starve…

    so look to faith… mr hoyt had it before his son was born, he was a military man… my parents have it, and their family has it.. .they gave it to me… my wifes family has a lot of it, and they share it amongst them.

    religion is like a work out in the gym for your faith muscles… they get stronger and we get better at who deserves our faith and its benificience too.

    equalizing it all to blind faith mediated by the elite who actually now know less about how the world ticks… well, as history shows, is always a recipe for misery and disaster…

    the archtypical devil doesnt offer us gold and such that they have to get us to move wrong… C.S. Lewis proved that in his screwtape letters.. all evil has to do is get good men to do nothing. to miss the bus. to be distracted… the promise of free and easy wealth is an empty promise, and its strength is that it distracts and lets the air out of progress… socialism is built on procrustean envy, and it will drain the machine of its lubrication, and its energy, and will fulfil the phrase…

    if they all cant have it now, then no one will have it ever

    and the secular gods are spiteful and envious gods, and they will tear it down, and when there is nothing, and all is flat, they will have the perfection of a desert, the clean lines of the flat lands, the pristine white of emptyness. they will not let the injustice of variety and difference ply its evil upon everything. it will sterilize, make clean, and totally safe… so mote it be…

  • Artfldgr

    Sorry.. i have to add, and was remise to add… that the philosophy of the hoyts was my parents philosophy too… how could this be? well the times were much less secular, and parents didnt see their lives as measured by the pleasure they could obtain and the pain they could avoid (as predicted by philosophical musings as to what increases that or decreases that – so a handicapped child is more of a burden and a ruination in the secular home… – in hoyts home, and my families home, i wasnt a burden, and it made all the difference)

    thanks mom and dad… thanks for making me a freak… why am i a freak? because i dont have a socialist confession of a bad childhood with parents that didnt do this or that… i grew up in a poor slum area described in the news as “dresden without the bombs”, and in racially charged times, and just not a good place. i dont have the normal view of horrible family and such.

    dont get me wrong… my family isnt a group of saints any more than other families, i just didnt expect secular gods called parents to provide me with childhood heaven… but they did anyway, and by NOT doing what the secular preists provided. oh, the bad heretics..

    today most people dont know i am 50% deaf… and have problems… my problems and my situation was never foisted on them as a burden the way it is today… and i never felt that god was unfair in my inability to ever hear stereo.

    Mr. Hoyt couldnt give an argument to secularists that logically would promote that his choice of taking his child home and treating his child as normal would be the best action.

    today… he still couldnt make that argument if he was in the same situation, but he wouldnt be able to make the choice without it. the secularist materialist do gooders would preserve how they see mr hoyts life should be and would have removed and drugged the son under the best for the child doctrine and the i know whats good for you better than you do doctrine…

    by the way… the secular doctrine is eugenics and euthanasia… and population control, and so on… its what made hitlers final solution happen… after all it started with action 4 and the removal of patients because soldiers were more valuable secularly than the old an infirm… which socialized medicine will do the same using the excuse of bueacracy and the cloak it provides… how long before some are more equal than others and we terminate for such ‘problems’… after all, thats exactly what they recommend in many cases, and is even a point to insure that abortion is never denied (perhaps even to the day before birth)…

    the more i see it, the more the secular heaven looks like hell.

  • MMX

    Artfldgr – How does one practice and acquire faith?

    I notice the severe drop off in faith whenever I tutor students for the SAT. My course runs eight weeks, but we cover all of the necessary methods at the end of Week Five, with the least three weeks used for solidification of known methods.

    Roughly 65% of my students reach the point where they “know” the methods, but ask me for “permission” to apply them. (“Do I eliminate the vocabulary choices which are clearly mismatched in terms of mood?” “Yes, for God’s sake! We’ve been doing that for five weeks now. Why do you need my permission to do the right thing?”)

    So my question is: how does one practice faith?

    If I were to guess, I would say. (1) Prayer, because it teaches you to vocalize what you really want from life right now. (2) Experimentation, because it teaches you that you are capable of starting with Nothing and turning it in to Something. (3) Helping Others, because it teaches you that your own problems and needs, though important, are quite small.

    Are there others?

  • MMX

    Artfldgr – I think I finally get it now.

    (1) I hadn’t thought what you said about “those less fortunate”. after all, the control of those secular elitists is really stemming from their contempt that their fellow man is not as good as they are, and must be brought to heel in order to shine.

    Some people think utopia will happen if “the ugly are forced to become beautiful”, “The stupid are forced to be smart”, and so on. This really is a form of contempt and resentment.

    You can’t have a baby under that philsophy either! You’ll resent the poor kid the moment he’s born, and you’ll always be trying to rush it to competence, so it cn get out of your way, rather than enjoying its everyday presence.

    No wonder it’s all miserable.

  • http://libertyletters.mensnewsdaily.com Steve Farrell

    Artfldgr: Inspirational, I can relate. Five of my kids have a “disabling” condition, and I MS. We try to look at them as the Refiner’s Fire; and as a result, generally, that is what occurs; and thus it is a blessing. Or from another perspective, “Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of Heaven;” and later, with more wisdom we learn: “it was no sacrifice at all.” Thanks also for the materialism vs. faith discussion, the Screwtape application and so forth. Great stuff.

    Chas: I’m not an expert on how widespread that problem is though we are taught in my faith that the father and husband presides in the home, as Christ does over the Church, that is in righteousness, in love, in service, in communion with his spirit, making the house a house of order, willing to lay his life down if necessary in their defense, etc. The wife, though, as a helpmeet, is his equal partner, his counselor, etc.; he does consult her in the decision making process, and ought not to go forward unless their is unity on an issue; nevertheless, that it is his decision (not that things can’t be properly delegated as well, so long as this patriarchal position is still understood). But it must be according to the Christian order in this thing, or in other words a: if he abuses this authority, and chooses to exercise unrighteous dominion, etc. “amen to the priesthood or authority of that man.”

    And yes, all males who are worthy, attain to the priesthood, a nation of priests so to speak, not a professional clergy of a few. That too emphasizes that patriarchy. And again, however, while in cases after counseling with the wife, that her opinion is different from his final decision, on the one hand it is her duty under this order of things to then sustain his decision, on the other hand, it is his duty, if she still fails to win her consent, to put that decision on a shelf, and wait for the time to become right. This is also how our church counsels work, with the Bishop consulting his counselors, and other leaders in the counsel, hearing them out first, and widening the possibility of inspiration in reaching the right decision, but also in others being blessed to use their talents and have a personal revelatory experience, and although in this process the Bishop’s mind, which he’s withheld till his turn at the end of the discussion, may be with the counsel, or changed by the counsel, he nevertheless at that point has the authority and the duty to say (when in conflict with the counsel), I appreciate you all, yet I feel this is what I feel the Lord wants. Their duty is then to unanimously stand behind him; but if not; then the Bishop’s duty under this process is to put the issue on the shelf until unity is one. “If ye are not one ye are not mine.” It is an interesting an inspirational process.

    But returning to marriages, we are encouraged as priesthood holders, and the patriarchs of our home to sit in not only husband and wife councils but family councils as well and to go through the same process, prayerfully soliciting the help of the Lord and the insights of each family member … though again the father presides.

    As to Paul’s counsel that it is “a shame for the women to speak in church,” our translation of that particular phrase is “to preside in church.” Their counsel is sought, though the worthy male (if he is worthy), presides in this divine partnership.

    The woman’s role as mother, nurturer, however, though she does not preside, and though she does not exercise the priesthood of God, is however reverenced as equally if not more important. This too is part of the culture; and it in turn adds to the possibility of a Christ like relationship, a greater willingness for the male to lend an ear to her unique perspective and then turn to God and find out if through her a family message came. If so, and he sustains it, then his humility before God and the advice of his number one counselor, strengthens his authority, by increasing her love and respect for him, and God working through him.

    Keep looking Chas, you’ll find what you’re looking for. It’s out there … but sad to say … “straight and narrow is the path that leadeth to eternal life (God’s life, for his name is eternal), and few there be that find it.”

  • http://libertyletters.mensnewsdaily.com Steve Farrell

    On this handicap angle; I accept as a principle of faith, “If men will come unto me, I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble, and my grace is sufficient for all those that humble themselves before me, for if they humble themselves before me, and exercise faith in me [Christ], then will I make weak things become strong unto them.” You see, this is why the meek will inherit the earth. It is not that they are weak, necessarily, but that by coming unto the Lord they see their weakness (a weakness, challenge, or test that others may or may not notice), and then turn to Him for the sort of help only he can provide, and through that refinement process which includes an honest, active, transformational repentance, comes an enlargement, and then in time, that which was difficult becomes as Emerson said, easier, not that the nature of the task has changed, but our capacity to do [with the help of God, I add] has increased.

    MMX: I like your use of the word experimentation, although I wouldn’t in my line of thinking say that God makes something out of nothing: “Faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; wherefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.” This is something different, or as we read Plato like that the Holy Ghost will bring “all things to our remembrance.” A vision of building a skyscraper before it is actually built is very much like this. The building existed in the man’s mind before it was put down in paper, but even beyond that, it may have existed elsewhere in a spiritual realm as the ideal, or something even beyond that, I mean have really existed. Again another principle of my faith, anyways, is this, “all things were created spiritually before they existed physically upon the earth.” Spirit is a more refined matter, but it is matter, and does exist. Faith then becomes, in an imperfect but very real way, translating a feeling of something that is true and real into action. Of bringing under our control the elements, seen and unseen, with the aid of the Almighty. And the more we go through this process, faithfully, the more in tune we become, the more our works translate accurately to the ideal God inspired into our mind. It becomes, faith does, a principle of power; the moving cause of all action.

    I often think of Columbus. He wrote: “Who can doubt but that the Holy Ghost inspired me and gave me fire for the deed.” I happen to believe that, but the interesting thing is that although God inspired him, Columbus to his last breath thought the land he had traveled to was India. “Faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things.” God gave him only as much information as he needed to get the job done. We found out about the India issue as a matter of course.

  • Artfldgr

    Thanks for the kind words guys… MMX, glad that you might try to apply it in some way to test it out… and steve, it is nice to connect.

    though for anyone else reading, do be careful to note that while i many talk from a ‘framework’, like christian, judain, muslim, buddist, etc… I tend not to select one because i am recomending one, but because something is more in relief in that framework than in others, though this isnt reletivation, i respect them all and do make discernments as to their natures.

    My family is no where near as religious as you may be steve, and thats just fine. they are more the quite monkish contemplicitive type, and the much more common, i belong, i know, i practice when it suits me, type. their culture reinforces the religion given that we are north european.

    for instance, faith is different for buddists, since its not brought into high relief. however, the constant ritualized practices embody the same kind of trust and faith in what you believe, and the expression thrugh a time sacrifice. christians tythe, and money is time, time is money. as the song says, i can spend time making money, or i can make money spending time. and you can throw either away too (the downside of the love of money and such is we forget this personal conversion, and if we thought more in terms of work we would realize that it takes some of us an hour or two (or more) just to earn enough to get to work for the week)

    for the most part in history the secular have enjoyed the leg up this gives… much to the point that they didnt realize that they were getting it. which is fine, but something unappreciated and unnoted often gets thrown out with the trash.

    in many a way, a group of faithful friends (which meant something different in the past than it does now), would bolster you and lead you through your self doubt when you stumble. they would help you up, but not face you in a direction to travel. in that way the secular, the jewish, the muslim, the buddist, etc were able to live all in one place. they helped up to the line of their proper boundaries, and so for the most part really dynamic and flavorful centers of learning and such were formed by this. not by blind tolerance, for blind tolerance may allow them to live next to each other for a time, but it also allows rot. (under the worship of the secular demons of expediency and pragmatism).

    religion is built into most of us. to deny that is to deny one of the most peaceful wide range cohisive forces that humans have. while a nation has to all reside within some fixed set of borders, a religious nation is actually connected to similar ideas, and ideals in other countries. so while everything can be different in life outside of religion, inside of it, and inside a culture that has it, gives one connections that cause pause.

    anyway, before this turns into a long winded thing… the point being that faith is the belief in something when you have no reason to believe.

    societies, whether we like it or not, are all bound up by faith. its the glue that makes society fit smoothly together. the less average faith, the less savings we get from having societies.

    for instance, if every transaction had to require a lawyer to review and go over the transaction, that would be expensive. however, if there is a level of faith, this cost goes down or up accordingly. so in the past, when we were more faithful (not described as fealty to god, but having more inner faith because of faelty to god, or some other framework), we were also more productive. when we were more productive, it was easier to accept the crumbs that fell off to things like minor crime and such, as it was more productive in the long run to work and be a part of the system.

    so without faith, or being faithless what happens…

    well, you need more licensing because the few that cheat will poison the barrel, and so people look to the state to do something about it.

    but why in a secular world does crime rise? well, a person does crime because they have no faith. they have little faith in themselves, they have little faith in the place they live to be able to provide, and you can see that oftn the choices they make is because they distrust or dont believe in somthing.

    and both trust and belief need a bed of faith to exist.

    after all, each time we trust someone, we are extending our faith…
    and when we have less general faith to dip into, we extend less trust…
    and when we have less faith, we have more negative beliefs.

    and humans act on beliefs not truth….

    a population in a crisis of fiaith is too busy in its own existential breakdown to be doing what it needs to do and what it needs to be to be healthy. this leaves them wide open to power predators.

    we no longer know where to place what little faith we have left, and ultimately thats what critical theory is about… complaining to the point were no one has faith in any part of the current system. rather than review and judge that system on some absolutes that a good system should have (other than a bunch of vague moralities), we abdicate that participation because we have no faith in it. but abdication does not apply pressure for change, it leaves the choices up to those who remain and didnt abdicate.

    this is how the few end up leveraging the many… as the few keep getting pumped up with what they are getting… as secularists they need concrete gifts to count up, and so they have faith in those that betray their faith… meanwhile, the religious already have faith, and so they have a choice of whether their faith will be bribed or places someplace else. so when the secular get gifts to ply their faith, socialist gifts, they are being tempted to their own end. which for those that like christian ethos is the whole point of the creation and later pseudo history/stories…

    the many choose to place their faith elswhere… and the few have lots of faith in the gifts they get is proof that their god is better.

    i will leave you with a movie scene to contemplate…

    watch conan the barbarian and see the campfire scene with the ‘wizard’.. and they talk about the gods they follow… its a classic religion vs state argument with faith being the fulcrum, and outcome being the judge. conan follows crom because he doesnt want his faith to be misplaced, and so he has to follow it to the end to truly know. so when the talk is about what gods do for who, the wise simpleton sounds so smart saying that his god is better because his god basically buys him off.

    our concepts of our archtypes seem to be much better formed than our belief and view of people because people are archtypes fractured… the archtype is a averagine of what we as a population are… so the god of the old testiment is actually a god that reflects the average that the culture saw as important… which was adherence to tight rules and traditions… while the newer testement reflects the newer state of mans place with plenty. that truly with cities and palaces and such, we can be socialist as individuals (charitable), because we did get more from god.

    the new testement kind of points out that if god does make it better, then should man be as harsh as when he thought that god wanted it rough for us? kind of simple but interesting. and so the god of the new testement is much more forgiving, and laid back in a way. now that the harvest is in, and there is food, we dont sit, but we dont have to work like we do in a disaster of survival, which life in the past was… “brutal and short”

    the god of the islamics is two faced (not in the greek roman sense), there are two versions, except in that history, the peaceful came first, and the more warelike came second (due to historical circumstances)… the prophet mohammed rather than respond to the attack on the self and people in the way jesus did, chose to take up arms and such.

    so over time, islam becomes more militant, and over time christianity bcomes more soft, and judaism, tends to just squat were it is given its focus on adherence to traditions regardless of chance (which is why today the elevators in my building will go up and down. its shabbat, and those of this faith that adhere cant operate machinery, and so the elevators go to every floor… either that or they find a goy like me and ask me to do it for them)

    the point i think i am taking too long in making is that all these things have to to with faith. socialists are faithful that marx is right, but stalins things is not the end result. christians are faithful that if they sit still, everything will either be all right, or over…. islamics are faithful that their prophets words taken out of context and mixed up tell them everything they need to know (the korans vs are not read in chronological order, and such). the buddists are faithful that none of this is real and so if we transcend it.. well, you get it… (these are vast oversimplifications).

    what do the secular have faith in?

    their fellow men and women?
    their family members?
    their children?
    their state?

    the people who toss them candy from parades and demonstrate with tokens that they shoud be trusted? (thats pretty much it – all wrapped up in the selfish monickers of whats in it for me, what have you done for me lately, etc)

    hope i didnt go too far all over the place. :)

  • Artfldgr

    forgot to mention.. the secular become faithless because things in reality are not perfect… (and the religious remain faithful because they focus on something not real, and that something can be perfect)… which is why faith erodes without religion of some sort, if you put your faith in the real, you will always be let down. it all depends on what you ask of your gods. the buddists are quite happy because they literally ask for nothing. the christians ask for a lot, but accept that most things are silly and selfish and they dont deserve them. the secular as for a lot, and when god doesnt give it to them, they seek to destroy god… they will teach the next god to give to them, wont they? then they seek some other trend. for a while their god was capitalism… then it was mechanism… then with communism, came pragmatism, and materialism… their god was the focus on only whats real and operating on that in the world. but again, the world is a messy and uncooperative place, and so their faith is always tested and broken on the back of the inability for them to work the world THE WAY THAT THEY WANT TO BASED ON HOW THEY THINK IT SHOULD BE NOT WITH ACCEPTANCE FOR HOW IT IS. the christians have an out for this dilemma… to quote frankenfurter in rocky horror (a fantasy deconstruction of the frankfurt schools operations on western culture deconstructing it with perversion, and such… shock treatment is part two where men are caged, womens me me me is released, and life becomes a television reel that amounts to socalist confession), when frankenfurter reveals rocky and with one persons acme revealed janet points out that what you love and think is right, is not what we all do. “i dont like a man with too many muscles”, and so frankenfurter screams “i didnt make him for you”… and so utopia is not for the masses… each of the secular give in and think that the output will be theirs… but the output is someone elses at best, and a communal average at best if not individual, and so he is constantly wanting.

    which was the whole point of the perversions and breaking faith… a constant diet of almosts… batman the movie is almost great… almost what we imagine (since he is been reimagined away from what we loved)…

    its a constant diet of almost fulfilling faith.. its like giving thirsty people salty water for a quarter… with just a bit of salt, they will not notice it, and the more they drink at the tap, the more they will come back thirsty trying to slake their needs.

    but like true hell, their needs will NEVER be met… the secular god is the devil of christianity… he needs you to feed and want from him, and so this is how they figured to keep you coming back for more… give you perversions that you really cant have (murder, mayhem as entertainment creates a want for action that cant be fulfilled)… or they give you what you want, but twist it a little…

    the secular god has no faith that you will come back to him if he gives you waht you want and need. the secular god beats out the religious god because he knows that he is wanted and given power because you believe that he can give you these things and that religion cant or doesnt. listen to many of the arguments against there being a god… the most common ones are that god doesnt fix the misery in the world, doesnt do this, and doesnt do that… and so they somehow transfered their faith in that god gave them a world in which all their needs can be met if they worked at it… to focusing on the god that needs them more, the state… and the state needs to keep them coming back for more and not shopping elswhere…

    when marx was talking about the opiate of the masses, he wasnt refering to removing it… he was revering to the perverted pleasure and pain of the addict… a person who has faith in their god, can get their fix any time they want, and that fix keeps them from looking to the state to get their fix. so marx saw that if you remove the opium from the addict, by blocking his supplier of faith… then the addict would have to turn someplace else to get their fix. and marx saw that the next place they woudl go would be family. so if you destroy god, and destroy family there is only one place left, one leg of the stool of society left to hold it up and be its everything. the state. all he was refering to was to get a monopoly on the addicts drug of choice so that you can control the addict and give him goals that they think is better. and humanism creating self puffery, and lies, and so forth will get him to look away, and be distracted…

    we laugh at the notion of a devil that tempts man to sin and his fallen nature… but isnt that what the state does when it says it will provide and then licence and prmote things that are even farther down the road of such than even the population wants to go?

  • conservativation

    STEVE F. WROTE THE FOLLOWING TWO PARAGRAPHS
    the father and husband presides in the home, as Christ does over the Church, that is in righteousness, in love, in service, in communion with his spirit, making the house a house of order, willing to lay his life down if necessary in their defense, etc. The wife, though, as a helpmeet, is his equal partner, his counselor, etc.; he does consult her in the decision making process, and ought not to go forward unless their is unity on an issue; nevertheless, that it is his decision (not that things can’t be properly delegated as well, so long as this patriarchal position is still understood). But it must be according to the Christian order in this thing, or in other words a: if he abuses this authority, and chooses to exercise unrighteous dominion, etc. “amen to the priesthood or authority of that man.”

    1. The woman’s role as mother, nurturer, however, though she does not preside, and though she does not exercise the priesthood of God, is however reverenced as equally if not more important. This too is part of the culture; and it in turn adds to the possibility of a Christ like relationship, a greater willingness for the male to lend an ear to her unique perspective and then turn to God and find out if through her a family message came. If so, and he sustains it, then his humility before God and the advice of his number one counselor, strengthens his authority, by increasing her love and respect for him, and God working through him.

    CHAS…if you read the posts here you’ll note that I’ve been engaged directly in this issue for a few years now…that being the feminization of the church. The problem even exists in Steve’s words above, but his statements are no where near as blatant as most (and I mean almost all) mainstream protestant churches, the liberal and the conservative. Steve describes the biblical family well. I have no major complaints. The problem can be in context and tenor.
    Do we ever read a unique stand alone description of the role of wife and Mother that sets forth the Bible’s prescriptions, but then goes on and ALWAYS adds qualifiers based on the husbands role and then admonished the wife about her potential failures? Rarely if ever is it presented that way. But as above, the rush to qualify the man’s role is ALWAYS followed with qualifiers that dilute the absolute truth and admonish the man not to abuse his power. There is nothing incorrect about it, but it is the sum total of the message and I regret that women are so rarely spoken to directly.
    Another ubiquitous twisting occurs when, as Steve does, pastors and religious leaders spell out the Biblically delineated hierarchy and then go on to say in all sorts of mental gymnastics how the two are really equal and God didn’t really mean it, etc. etc. I am never of the mind that man is BETTER then woman, but, like it or not, the hierarchy is established, it is what it is, the organizational Chart clearly shows man above woman in the home, and there is no way to then say that the roles are EQUAL. Its like saying that, sure there are Vice Presidents, but we really didn’t mean it. It was just that the company charter forced us to only give one person the title of president but these V.P.’s all are exactly the same and equal to the president, and in fact in many ways they are superior to the president because after all he can get carried away with all that power and the wise and nurturing nature of the V.P.’s is essential for the president to lead.
    To speak to the importance of the roles, absolutely there is equality. Both are indispensable. But to speak of leadership it cannot be. There are decisions that CANNOT be tabled until the wife buys in. She wasn’t given veto power that cannot be over ridden. It’s a nice concept but it is not what the Bible says. The last sentence I pasted above from the article sums up how the problem is manifest in American marriage. It basically foists conditionality into the matter. Beginning with the conditional words, “if so” it then described how her love and respect get increased towards her husband, and one needn’t read between lines to realize that is often taken directly be her to mean, if he agrees with her all the time she sure will let him lead, and love him for it.
    The Bible speaks directly to man, and directly to woman, and our accountability is to God. While mutual love and respect occur naturally in a rightly ordered home, marriages in this country are dying because one or the other failed to “earn” it. A quote I’ve pasted here before talked of a man and woman in counseling, and she says she defers all the big decisions to her husband while she handles smaller matters. He then chimes in saying that yes, she decides where they live, how they spend time and money, and where the kids go to school, as well as church, while he gets to ponder the origins of the stars and the very nature of God. That is the byproduct of the kind of message preached weekly in America’s churches.
    Unless and until the church sorts itself out on marriage (and divorce), we can count on feminism of the evangelical sort to destroy families in the church. Christians have more kids, and since we divorce at the same or greater rate, we produce more social pathologies in children than those outside the church. My unofficial data gathering tells me that women in the church are filing more then women outside. It is exactly due to the pastorate apologizing for God having laid down His plan for the family.

  • http://libertyletters.mensnewsdaily.com Steve Farrell

    Conservativation: “unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.” I can hear what you are trying to say here, that if the power is not absolute, then it will be feminized. But there is every law comes in conflict with other law, and moral rational beings need to figure out in each instance, which law is higher. For instance God gave us free agency in the Garden of Eden. In my belief, in fact, agency has always existed, else, for instance, there would have been no war in Heaven; all his angels would have had their nose to the grindstone. But there was war, we read, and 1/3 of the hosts were cast down to earth, never to have a physical body, and to serve a purpose, nonetheless, as a test and trial for man, to help him reach down and find his better self amidst the temptations of the adversary and the flesh.

    We read also: “thou shalt not kill.” But that has bounds and conditions. We in fact can kill, and justly, in defense of self, family, neighbor, and country … that is, under those bounds and conditions one may kill, and so the commandment not to kill is likewise under bounds and limitations (one may be in fact, guilty of consenting to the murder of himself or others if he fails to take up the sword in those cases). We are also commanded to kill murderers, properly tried and convicted. And yet, even in all of these cases, some would say, so long as murder is not in your heart. It is tough love, it is duty, it is bowing to a higher law. A more refined definition that sets the bounds more clear in this matter is “thou shalt not shed innocent blood.”

    The punishments for murder in the scriptures also have bounds and limitations attached. Premeditated murder equals capital punishment,

    But here’s another perspective, it appears that you are saying that the woman must obey, and the man must assert his authority over her. Question, does God so impose his authority on man? If so, then why aren’t we all of one faith, and one mind, walking in obedience to his every word. But God doesn’t work that way at all. He invites us to follow him; he doesn’t force us. And again, notice how in his own community, Nazareth, he could do very few miracles, save heal a few sick folk, for a prophet is not honored among his own people. Faith precedes the miracle, and where there is no faith, there can be no miracle, and for that matter, no obedience.

    Also note how Christ treated peoples weaknesses differently according to their knowledge. He rebuked the learned Pharisees and Saducees severely, but of the women caught in adultery by the same group, he forgave her, and commanded her not to sin again. Bounds and conditions, you see, in all things: faith precedes the miracle; without faith, no miracle can be done.

    But we must go deeper here. What separated Christ from the corrupted version of the Law of Moses the Jews were practicing at the time of his ministry. One thing is that they were focused on a strict, even soulless interpretation of the law, and let’s add, outward appearance; he was focused on the heart. A husband must win the heart of his wife, and yes, visa versa (I didn’t give some book long exposition on the subject … she too must merit his respect) … otherwise his rule is unrighteous dominion. There is a law and it goes like this: “the spirit cannot dwell in an unclean temple.” The husband and father is supposed to be a vessel through which the Holy Ghost can give leadership in the home; but if the vessel is unworthy, the spirit withdraws, and amen to the authority of that man.

    This is vital. It’s what Paul meant when he said of the hypocrite teaching the truth, it is made to become as a tinkling, or sounding brass. It is also written, “If ye have not the spirit ye shall not teach.” This is why: we become a false witness to the truth. We may speak the truth, but our families, or our wives, or our neighbor, or our congregation, who may in fact still be worthy, don’t feel it, and thus we subvert the word of God and our own authority in the home, the community, or the church. This is a bound and condition as regards the Spirit of the Lord and authority. It is real.

    That a man or woman falls prey to feminism, has nothing to do with this, but much to do with their failing to become the vessel of God they were intended to become.

    Another issue (sorry) :) : The Biblical law is that man submits himself to God, and women to the man of God, but we read, that they become one. That is the command. That means equality, and equality can exist, when we understand equality in the sense, for instance, of equality before the law, but not equality of ends, in a marriage, or a corporation, and yet with their still being the final decision maker. When I said their must be consent, however, when the wife’s opinion isn’t in harmony with the husbands – that too is a principle of the gospel. The woman is a free agent. Plus this additionally, God gives to each individual, nation, culture, that which it is prepared for (someone in this discussion contrasted the law of Moses with Christ’s higher law, this is a perfect example, he gives us what we are prepared for, and in another sense, he will even completely withdraw his spirit, his prophets, his protection when we become ripe in iniquity, which also happened to Israel at times). And so, with this principle in mind; the Lord can inspire the husband to take a particular path, the women can be in disagreement, they can reason together, pray together, and hope that the Spirit of the Lord touches her to follow what was revealed to the husband; but if not; then because of this higher law of agency, the husband puts the issue on the shelf and might say; okay, I believe that this is what we need to do, you aren’t convinced, then we won’t proceed, but lets resolve to revisit the issue again at a later time, take it off the shelf, look at it again with the help of time and experience, and see what we see then.

    This is vital. This is part of how inspiration works in my opinion when the inspiration to be given affects others than ourselves only. A sort of check and balance game. If we are willing to believe that faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things, then we see how counsel from a loving spouse, who also doesn’t have a perfect knowledge of things, but one who brings to the table a different prospective, different experiences, different talents (some superior or complimentary to ours) acts as a check for us to look deeper into the issue. And since we are on the subject of faith; this process requires faith in both.

    But I started to say something else, man is under God, the women under man (this is in the power of presiding), but then we read that all that the father hath shall be ours, that we are joint heirs with Christ, that neither is the man without the woman nor the woman without the man in the Lord, and that they can’t be saved without us, nor us without them, and so forth, and that “We have had fathers after the flesh and we gave them reverence; shall we not much rather be in subjection to the Father of Spirits and live?”

    This takes us back to the reality of what a Christian home is supposed to be, one in which God presides, not the man. The man is only given the stewardship, which he can only exercise in righteousness. Of course, now, we all fail, and we also can repent, but we must vow to “watch ourselves, and our words, and our deeds, and continue in the faith” or else we may find ourselves somewhere outside of the Kingdom of God in the end.

    And again: ‘where two or more of you are gathered in my name; there I am also.” The power of counsels. A wise check on man’s imperfections. Thus we have a counsel of the twelve, a counsel of seventy, a presidency, we have also deacons, teachers, priests, bishoprics, evangelists, and other “helps,” etc. all in their own places and all of them consisting of quorums and counsels. There is a reason for this. Even the Godhead consists of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. And we read in the Genesis account: “Let US [plural] make man in OUR [plural] own image, and after OUR [plural] own likeness. Each of them perform different roles; the Father presides, the Son is the mediator, advocate to the Father, the Savior, etc, who we read, submitted himself to the will of the Father in all things (“if it be possible, remove this cup from me, nevertheless, not my will, but thine be done), and the Holy Ghost bears witness of the Father and the Son, and of all truth, and is the comforter, etc.) They Father presides over them, the Son presides over this world, the Holy Ghost perhaps presides over our hearts, and yet they are one, and equal in power and authority, for they truly act as one, with the same single purpose in mind, “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.” Yet Christ was a free agent. He was “tempted in all things,” which is part of the requirement of agency. He could have let us down; he could have given in; but his magnificence is that he didn’t. But truth is, we aren’t at that level; and there are husbands that subvert their leadership, and no women is bound to follow a blind, or unjust judge.
    ,

  • conservativation

    Steve…you said the following

    “it appears that you are saying that the woman must obey, and the man must assert his authority over her. Question, does God so impose his authority on man?”

    (conservativation) No, never did I make this assertion and my words are not even nebulous. It is in your interpreting my words this way that the causality of the feminization of the church resides. What you state here is what the church apologizes for in attempting to share God’s plan for marriage with couples.
    Steve you said the following…
    “This is vital. It’s what Paul meant when he said of the hypocrite teaching the truth, it is made to become as a tinkling, or sounding brass. It is also written, “If ye have not the spirit ye shall not teach.” This is why: we become a false witness to the truth. We may speak the truth, but our families, or our wives, or our neighbor, or our congregation, who may in fact still be worthy, don’t feel it, and thus we subvert the word of God and our own authority in the home, the community, or the church. This is a bound and condition as regards the Spirit of the Lord and authority. It is real. “
    (conservativation) Again, you are speaking to a supposition. You are supposing I am perhaps a legalist or “pharasiacal” in my interpretations and proclaiming doctrine without proclaiming truth, and not being rightly led. Another important distinction between what I wrote and what you answered is that I didn’t posit a lack of bounds or conditions. I say that my role as it relates to how I treat my wife does not change no matter how she treats me. Women are leaving church with that conditionality in mind on their behalf and it takes root in the home. Indeed for all the church is doing to see to it that men are not lording Gods Word over women, what has happened is the reverse. Women are using the Word to lord over their husbands based on conditionality and not taking to heart that they, like we, are accountable to God no matter what the husband or wife is doing.
    Steve said….
    “This takes us back to the reality of what a Christian home is supposed to be, one in which God presides, not the man. The man is only given the stewardship, which he can only exercise in righteousness”

    (conservativation) Again, you speak to a supposition. I have no issue with God presiding, and certainly have never propose man usurp that. Adding that he can only exercise it in rightiousness again true absolutely, but emphasizes for the wife a “condition” and again “apologizes” (please read that word as that it infers an apology, a sort of “I’m sorry it is laid out this way, but on the plus side look how hard God has made my role”) for the roles prescribed.
    Steve I do not intend to come off as harsh here. The brevity needed causes it somewhat, as well as the fact that, though yours is better then most, it is the same template for the discussion I’ve had with countless church leaders. Examples of how we treat commandments like murder have no place as an analogy here. We are discussing an utterly clearly described hierarchy here and I for one will not second guess it. It is I guess natural for you to assume and translate that into how you may think I am trying to justify behaving. That is not the case at all. But things have drifted off so badly we feel we must qualify all Biblical gender discussions and that’s the sum total of my point. I am not advocating being king-o-the-home!
    Finally, if I am wrong in pointing this out, then tell me why it is that Christian families are more messed up than those outside in terms of divorce. Tell me things are just fine in Christian homes and that men and women are following their roles. But do so please without telling me that, if men would X women would Y. That presumption insults women, that they would just line up and follow Gods plan if men did it right.
    In addition to hearing Gods roles diluted and apologized for, we hear that in the end its our (men’s) fault anyway. We go off to conferences and join accountability groups all in the name of shaping us up for our wives. Gods role for husbands is difficult. We shouldn’t add a blaming and unsupportive church that enables women to misinterpret the Word to their benefit.

  • http://libertyletters.mensnewsdaily.com Steve Farrell

    Another note on equality: As I said, it is not the socialist sort that we have come to accept (not I, I should hope); but that all are equal in their own providential roles, all equal before the laws of God, all equal in their value to the church (not their position) – thus as Paul said:

    But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.14 For the body is not one member, but many.15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

    And then Christ on leadership:

    25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

    This is the sort of leadership I am talking about. If it is the true Christian model that we are looking for, it is as a servant, not a master – and note again: he then shared his authority with them, including to do works which exceeded his own: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do.”

    He delegated authority and thus empowered others who shared in his work and glory. Though he presided, he invited them to be one with him and the father, and the promise is that we shall be joint heirs with Christ in all things if we live up to the charge under his terms.

    As to being one, this is to what extent he meant it. He prayed to the Father: Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

    This is a powerful model. It is the model a husband and wife need to try to achieve, yes, the man presiding, but presiding in love, and one who loves, empowers those he loves to become all they can become in their sphere. Part of that sphere is as a helpmeet.

    On that subject I like this take from another writer:

    In my mind the story of the rib is a love story of unparalleled beauty, enacted in the dawn of time and meant to be repeated by the posterity of Adam and Eve ever after. It is the story of our first parents joined in the covenant of eternal marriage by their Father, who was God. The story is prelude to the Fall and the basis of all future promise. I would like to suggest a meaning to this story which has deep significance to me.

    Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden separately at the Father’s discretion. God placed Adam in the garden before Eve as a matter of governance and preparation. Adam was to preside or govern over the earth and over the family yet to be. (Moses 3:15; 1 Cor. 11:3, 8-9.) He was charged to dress or cultivate, keep or protect the garden, in which all things had been prepared for the use of man (Moses 3:9). This stewardship was the initiation of his foreordained work-he had been commanded to multiply and fill the earth, and yet Adam was companionless, alone and solitary in all his labors.

    “It was not good,” God declared, “that the man should be alone” (Moses 3:18), or, as the Hebrew suggests, “separate,” “divided,” or “desolate.” The personal implication is that Adam could not prosper without his beloved companion. God announced that he would provide Adam with his foreordained consort, companion, and friend. The Father’s words are his preface to the doctrine of eternal union here taught.

    “I will make,” God said “an help meet for him” (Moses 3:18; italics added)-not one word, but two, meaning the Lord would bring forth “a helper, aid, or partner” who was “suited to, worthy of, or corresponding to” Adam.fn Eve was the prepared companion who was suited to Adam, a “full partner … in both temporal and spiritual things,” as Elder McConkie expressed it.fn She was to be, in the Hebrew, the indispensable “help, aid, succor,” and “protection,” which “strengthens, girds, or saves the onward course.”

    Let me now more specifically suggest an interesting interpretation of the rib story. We read that the Lord caused, or designed in the natural scheme of things, a “deep sleep” to fall upon Adam (Moses 3:21), an emphatic phrase that in the Hebrew suggests perhaps that Adam became lifeless and despondent. While Adam languished, the Lord took from him his rib, literally his “side,” and made Eve. Eve is the rib, we learn, a metaphor telling us that Eve is the side, support, and stay to Adam, and that she is intrinsic to his being, the most intimate and inseparable companion. She is to be called woman, meaning “wife of man,” because she was “taken out of man” (see Moses 3:22-24). Eve was not a mysterious extension of man, as some have supposed, but the companion who came in answer to his longing and was placed at his side.

    Through his need the man gave the woman being; in return she gave purpose and being to him. There was now reason to survive, love, and labor, and in course of time there would come issue, the most precious gift, each to each. And thus the Lord closed the flesh in the stead of Adam’s wound (Moses 3:21), suggesting that he closed or repaired the wound of Adam’s yearning. “For as the woman is of the man,” Paul said, “even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God” (1 Cor. 11:12).

    Each was now entire. “This [my companion],” Adam exulted, “I know now is bone of my bones”; that is, she is of my same order or genesis. The term bone also connotes power and strength. Eve, continued Adam, is “flesh of my flesh,” indicating a proper physical union drawing husband and wife together. “Therefore,” Adam realized, “shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife” in faithful union. (Moses 3:23-24.)

    Ben Franklin put it this way when counseling a young friend to get married instead of living in sin:

    “Marriage is the proper remedy. It is the most natural state of man, and therefore the state in which you are most likely to find solid happiness. Your reasons against entering into it at present appear to me not well founded. The circumstantial advantages you have in view by postponing it are not only uncertain, but they are small in comparison with that of the thing itself, the being married and settled.

    “It is the man and woman united that make the complete human being. Separate, she wants his force of body and strength of reason; he, her softness, sensibility, and acute discernment. Together they are more likely to succeed in the world. A single man has not nearly the value he would have in that state of union. He is an incomplete animal. He resembles the odd half of a pair of scissors. If you get a prudent, healthy wife, your industry in your profession, with her good economy, will be a fortune sufficient.”

    Finally, I apologize for “tenor,” etc. This is a blog, so don’t read too deep into that. I’m letting it fly … just like the next guy, and I often fail, even when I do have time to really think it through, especially in tenor, etc., which, who knows what someone will read into it. I did say that the man presides, and I stand by that. It’s just that my interpretation of what constitutes a smart, righteous, inspired president in a world of free agents, and in a relationship where God has commanded the man to leave his parents, and the women her, and that the two shall no longer be two, but one flesh, requires something more than merely ruling by edict. :)

    I do appreciate all of the insightful comments. They stretch me, and hopefully we stretch each other. To ARTFDGR: once again, GREAT STUFF.

    More on whether faith is really relying upon NO evidence. Well, I agree in a sense, because it is a lack of evidence as to the world’s standard of evidence, but faith is not what the world cynically calls acting in “blind obedience” (men of reason never do); it is via faith obedience (I’m sure your with me here from what I think I heard you say, I just want to clarify this for others). Faith obedience is to act in faith on unseen evidence, a feeling, a flash of intelligence from God, a picture or vision put in our mind (including in inspired dreams), and doing so based on a track record. Such as, the testimony of others (found in the scriptures, or offered by friends and loved ones), but over time, our own experiences. For instance, in the past when we’ve followed what we perceive to be the voice of God we succeed. When we ignore it, we fail. Overtime evidence builds up, sensitivity grows, it is all still unseen to the world, and the next call from God may contradict all we think we know on a subject, and yet we proceed on the unseen evidence, but evidence nonetheless. Therefore, Moses endured seeing the unseen God; while to the faithless, he remains unseen, and without evidence that he exists. Etc. Etc.

    Over time, faith moves toward knowledge, just as an hypothesis, becomes a theory, becomes a law … as the evidence mounts from repeated experiments, and hopefully, a variety of experiments of men of a different perspective.

  • http://libertyletters.mensnewsdaily.com Steve Farrell

    Conservativation: Sorry. This is an imperfect medium. I wasn’t saying YOU were speaking without authority, etc. etc. :) I was speaking of the man or leader in general.

    And if I’ve come off sounding like I’m giving women excuses to leave the home because of the man’s imperfections, or to flaunt his authority, I apologize. I can’t type fast enough, nor would any of you endure it if I got into this too much. I’m hoping rather this discussion will develop without either of us guessing motives, or the full picture of our perspective based on a few paragraphs off the top of our heads.

    I admit, I probably misinterpreted much of what you’ve said, because the conversation was well advanced in your mind before we first wrote to each other … and I haven’t heard any of it till now. I apologize for that. I think I can learn more, keep this discussion going. Explain deeper, more background please. And, oh yes, I was skimming through your comments, and that causes its own problems.

    In my faith the marriage covenant is for eternity. It is treated as a covenant, and the women formally vows to follow the man as the man follows Christ. Among those who enter into this sort of marriage (not all do in the church, by choice), the divorce rates are much lower, but sadly, the trend is up … which speaks more of where we are as a society, than on the inferiority of the covenant.

    We are taught to take those covenants seriously. We are taught to be patient with each other, that includes the women being patient with the man’s imperfect leadership, and visa versa, the man being patient in her supporting role.

    Last note: Hope I don’t sound preachy to anyone. :) If so, my apologies. It’s my authoritative style of writing, and the fact that I have held positions of responsibility and trust in the church for some time (three decades). I know I come off as “thus saith the Lord,” even when I’m only trying to have a fair and open exploration of views. Be patient with me. I do appreciate your thoughts.

    Now that I’m done with the apologies, I do admit also, I’m not apologetic about my convictions, but the more I know, the less I know. Keep writing all.

  • conservativation

    Steve you wrote…
    I will make,” God said “an help meet for him” (Moses 3:18; italics added)-not one word, but two, meaning the Lord would bring forth “a helper, aid, or partner” who was “suited to, worthy of, or corresponding to”

    Incidentally I am quite familiar with the scriptures, even as they relate even indirectly to this discussion. In fact I’ve had essentially this same dialog dozens of times, and I do not mean that condescendingly Steve. But in the above, where you begin the rib analogy story, I’d take issue definition wise with any expression that says, “ helper, aid, or partner”. A partner clearly has meaning WAY beyond helper and aid. Rightly interpreted sure, partner could be understood in this relationship, and in many facets it is true. But to just say helper or partner as if they are interchangeable leads to huge misunderstandings.

    You needn’t express disdain again and again for men who wish to rule or rule by edict. I agree already! In fact Steve, men doing that are so incredibly rare that it boggles my mind that we (you, me, and the church) keep harping on it. Speak to marriage counselors and see who rules over whom in Christian marriages. Decent, Godly, well intentioned women are rationalizing running their husbands and their homes with Biblical justification. (I am fortunate in that I am not in that situation, so these are not bitter ravings).

    I would go so far as to suggest that if this issue could be addressed in churches with utter adherence to God’s word, and with tongue never touching cheek, the church could be restored to its place as a light and salt model in society. As it stands right now it is bad and getting worse.

    I am interested in your answer to my question. Where is the problem in the church? Why are Godly families falling apart as are those secular ones? Why is the church less and less set out from its surrounding culture? If you had to name one thing glaring, what would it be? How can the church ACT to discourage divorce? How can the church ACT to encourage Godly family living?

  • conservativation

    Also Steve, you read and write here. You see the men and their struggles. You see the inherent disadvantage men experience daily due to gender. And you see men here ready to line up with just about anything that will make it safe and even celebrated to be a man.
    Where once the church stood as a last safe place for men, it is no longer. That explains why men have gravitated to workaholism, sports to the point of addiction and family neglect, and even some to less pure pursuits of pleasure. They seek to be men, regardless how misguided the manifestations.
    Wouldn’t it be great if men felt like they were not the object of ire at church? Wouldn’t it be great if men were seeking the church and seeking God based on how He said it is to be a man? Conversely isn’t it tragic the opposite is true?

  • http://libertyletters.mensnewsdaily.com Steve Farrell

    Not trying to harp. Glad we are on the same page. I do say it, not because you are not right that the opposite is occurring, more and more; but the truth is, the old male boss things still is found everywhere as well. As a priesthood leader in my faith, I see it. As a Father of married children, I see it. Of course, some of it is just lack of maturity on the side of some of these males; but in some cases, it is definitely their ignorance of what they perceive their rights to be as patriarch in the home.

    Why is the feminization happening? Well, I’m sure you know. It all started with Marx, in our day. I’m oversimplifying. But one sure aspect is that we have turned the education of our kids away from the parents and over to the state … and the state has given us one wonderful program of amorality, anti-Christianity, anti-authority, anti-rule of law. Generations of this false message, has taken root, everywhere, and sure, Christians, like everyone else are affected, trusting more in their earthly education than in their higher education. Add to that, many faiths have in fact been subverted by the social gospel. My guess is that you believe this already. So I won’t go on and on and on.

    It’s an imperfect world. A reformation is needed. I think it might begin with Church schools coming out from under accreditation boards – and home schooling (especially with the aid of the internet) becoming more and more prevalent.

    And Mom’s need to have faith to come home (there are exceptions, but as the rule of thumb).

    Back to my sounding like I’m giving excuses. Let me kind of explain to you another take on my interpretation of an approach to exceptions. I use the Supreme Court here. My rule of thumb on the Supreme Court would be to do away with precedent/case law. Each ruling ought to stand on its own, looking at the fixed general principles of law as the higher standard, the eternal rule, with all lesser laws in accordance with those, and so justice according to that fixed standard, and yet with an eye to equity. A judge may then appropriately rule mercifully in a certain case and depart from the law, or the set standards and punishments of the law; but the law still stands under this model, for the equity decision is but for this case only. And that’s a big difference.

    I look at the law and realize there are bounds and conditions; but also so many individual circumstances that require flexibility, so long as the flexibility doesn’t become the standard. Jesus saying, “the letter killeth; but the spirit givith life.” And yet he reminded us, that he had not come to overthrow the law, but to fulfill it.

    Now it takes an educated and converted man and women, and an educated and converted church, and an educated and converted society, to understand how to draw these lines, and how to be flexible and a follower of the spirit of the law; and yet an unfailing believer in the law, at the same time. That struggle is part of what it is all about to come to know God, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little.

    I can’t say why so many churches have failed to measure up; other than to say, some are closer to the mark, others far from it; some have been totally subverted and are but vehicles of secularism, socialism, feminism and the whole lot; some are more inspired. I have been blessed in my faith, and friends within my faith who I serve, to not only see the problems, some of which you mention, but also many, many, many good solid marriages, the kinds of marriages that I believe God intended. So I have hope. I see it as an individual thing. At least in the case of my own faith (and again plenty of failures here), I read this from the Lord speaking of the Church, “In whom I the Lord am well pleased, speaking of the Church collectively, and not individually.” I see those who apply the principles of my faith, succeeding in their marriages, and those who aren’t, not (and, of course, and then there are the exceptions, mental illness, whatever, individual limitations that crack under stress, while others don’t)

    That you are working with pastors trying to wake them up is a good and noble thing in my eyes. You must be driven. Keep it up.

  • http://libertyletters.mensnewsdaily.com Steve Farrell

    Conservativation: Heading out here; good conversation. Your remarks are inspiring. Thanks for stretching us! I’ll check back later.

  • conservativation

    Steve, thank you for your encouragement. I see the problems I speak of present in the most conservative denominations, and even in non-denominational groups. I am not even touching the sort of Episcopalian type doctrines, or Unitarians or any like that. And though I’ve read of it, the new “social gospel” is not included in those with which I struggle. I tend to keep my attention on those who I feel should get it.
    My struggle has been with Southern Baptists and those non-denominational churches that you could say spin off from that. I lived In Texas for 20 years, 3 different cities, and experienced great churches in each. But they never failed to fail on marriage and divorce, almost to the point where, if I had the data, it perhaps could be shown that the more “conservative” the denomination, the more insidious yet powerful is what I call evangelical feminism.
    Our “best” churches and those uber-leaders of same have become a bit of a two act play. Homosexuality and abortion draw the righteous condemnation of members and leaders alike. Members shout “AMEN” as the pastor bemoans the prevalence of same, but I wish I could say I’ve never heard an Amen when divorce was preached. Indeed I’ve never heard divorce preached without the same apologies and qualifiers I find in things of gender across the board. When divorce is mentioned it is on Fathers Day as the preacher admonishes dads to get back in the game and stop shirking responsibility.
    If the church doesn’t have it right on divorce, if they will not bring the truth to light, if they fear 60% of the listeners reaction and seek to play on only the fear and loathing factors of homosexuality and abortion, how in a secular world will the church maintain credibility?
    Love the sinner and hate the sin is solid advice. I bet you have never heard a pastor say those words about divorce. Why? It is because among those saying Amen regarding homosexuality, there are those who indeed do hate the sinner. That is our nature sadly and preachers know it. Therefore they would be afraid to offend folks who brought divorce into their home, and want to keep the people happy. But God hates divorce. He said so! I’ve yet to hear that scripture quoted unapologetically. But oh my, we can recite in unison ALL the scriptures in Leviticus and Romans and so on about homosexuality right?
    Something is wrong Steve. Unfortunately I agree Marxism is an environmental factor, but there is outright bad theology or diluted and watered down truth on marriage, and church leaders even if they know it are scared of it.
    I asked my pastor friend who is a chaplain at a prison where I did ministry why, at his church, he did this.
    He said it was because his wife was listening.
    A rare moment of priceless candor happened then and there.

  • conservativation

    Steve, for the record, you do not come off as preachy to me. You come across knowledgeable and grounded and I respect you for it indeed. I wanted to focus a second on the covenant of marriage. Every church Ive attended and belonged to (I only have changed when I relocated…not a shopper or hopper) preach strongly on the covenant of marriage. They pull no punches when speaking of the foundations of family and the commitment before God and the seriousness with which it must be entered. They offer counsel before wedding, and for troubled couples after. No complaints there.
    But preaching about divorce and remarriage is rare. Like you I take the stuff very seriously and see divorcing my wife as an absurdity akin to divorcing my mother or father. I find it funny we call a man, woman, and kids a family. Lets say I was one of those kids. That would be my family. Then I grow up and marry and have kids. My wife and kids are my family. BUT, somehow we allow “family” to mean two different things right? I mean consider if someone said “I am so angry with my dad I’m going to sever that part of my “family”. Yet that is exactly what happens in no-fault divorce. Someone takes the power on himself or herself to decide that THIS family is disposable and never mind if the husband and four kids want it to stay together it gets ripped apart.
    That’s why GOD HATES IT. The pain and suffering that one person can bring down on the backs of all others involved is unbelievable. I experienced a near miss with divorce and I can tell you after losing 20 pounds and literally being able to sit awake for days with no sleep, and all the requisite health issues around that, I have zero trouble believing what is claimed that divorce is second, grief wise, to losing a family member in death.
    And yet that kind of torture happens in churches daily, and is not preached about openly and strongly. It profoundly saddens me.






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