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The Absurdity of the Marriage Debates

2007-07-23
By

This week a study came out that shows how unilateral divorce laws make divorce more frequent. The empirical research shows what any sensible person would already guess — easy divorce laws make for more divorces. This is only magnified by the fact the divorcing party usually has great incentives to divorce and few incentives to stay (independent of whatever marital problems may exist). The fact that this is even a debate in academia shows how politicized and irrational the academy has become. Sure, there are plenty of other reasons to divorce that also drive the high rate of marriage failures, but government incentivizes failure, not success. That certainly doesn't help.

Add into this debate on divorce law the current debate on gay marriage. With easy divorce, marriage has been demoted to the status of a contract. If it's just a meaningless contract, why can't any combination of participants enter into it? A good question that cannot be easily answered when framed that way.

First off, marriage in this society (independent of its religious roots) is not even a contract. Contracts are designed to be enforceable in the event of a breach. Divorce rewards the breaching party most of the time. None of the terms of marriage are enforceable in any real way. There are no options for a spouse to rein in an adulterous partner and the few laws still on the books against adultery are waiting to be declared unconstitutional.

Further, easy divorce ends up putting the entire lives of the parties into the public record and under the control of a judge. One can walk to any courthouse in this country and start reading detailed accounts of broken marriages. Judges have tremendous power to allocate assets, assign living arrangements, and exercise large amounts of control over the parties. This should greatly worry any libertarian.

One wonders why gay people want a piece of that action. Straight couples are putting off marriage because many wonder if it's really worth all the risk. Gay couples certainly aren't immune from divorce either. Marriage is a loaded term devoid of any meaning behind it. It appears that gay marriage is an attempt at social acceptance, not any desire for benefits. Any real look at marriage shows that on the balance, marriage confers a net liability, not a net benefit.

Before discussing who can participate in marriage, the discussion that we should be having is what the institution of marriage should mean. Right now, the institution currently in place in the United States (again separated from its religious roots) is bordering on meaningless. There is certainly no shortage of people who think so considering every time a government program comes down to support marriage, the usual suspects try to stop it.

The fact is, any serious look at the history of the institution of marriage will show that it is a religious institution. Governmental recognition was not only a later development for marriage, but it also is a secondary aspect. The argument that marriage is a legal institution, a mere creation of government, is a profound mutilation of marriage. One would think that the myriad of governmental forms throughout history would have produced a myriad of forms of marriage, but it has not.

If there is going to be public recognition and support of marriage, there needs to be a corresponding public good and duty. Government shouldn't give out money simply because someone wants a paycheck. What public good is fostered by the recognition of gay marriage? The same could be asked of marriage in the way it is practiced here also. The fact is, until the promises made and the obligations uttered on the wedding day are actually binding in any real way, it's hard to find much of a public good.

Instead of arguing the particulars of marriage and haggling over the petty details, it's time the question of marriage in its fundamentals enters the public discourse. What should marriage mean? Should its obligations be actually binding? What public good is to be fostered? These are the questions that really matter.

John Bambenek is the Assistant Politics Editor for BC Magazine and is an academic professional for the University of Illinois. By trade, he is an information security professional, part of the Internet Storm Center and a courseware author and certification grader for the GIAC family of security certifications. He is a syndicated columnist who blogs at Part-Time Pundit and the executive director of The Tumaini Foundation which helps AIDS orphans and other children in Tanzania to get an education.

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  • http://www.singleparents.org.nz julie

    scottkirk,

    Making little cards and handing them out is a good idea. I have handed out flyers. The Courthouse wouldn’t let me put it on their noticeboard so I passed them out. The lawyers wouldn’t accept them but everyone else did. The police force would accept them so I gave them individually to the police. Then I hit the streets. Everytime I see a male working, I say, “Hi there hard worker, we are after a men’s affairs.” They appreciate it. I want to do it this way because if I work in community, I get referrals and then I get stuck helping one male at a time. That is important of course, really important because it is lives of children at stake also (PAS) but I feel that we will end up with so many to help and provide no REAL help for the future.

    Unlike the women’s groups who work to sustain their movement for a long time, I think the men’s movement wants to get in and empower the people. But don’t get me wrong. The women’s groups do alot of good work and do empower alot of women to better their own lives.

    It is the LAW as amfortas says. But unfortuanately the law is more interested in keeping the courts going and has millions of lawyers coming through schools to proivide jobs for. It really is an industry and even though we are moving towards shared parenting, our FC has been given along side the Women’s refuge around $60,000,000 to promote more DV cases so that the FC survives. Whatever move is made from the right foot, the left foot counteracts.

    This has to be a movement to encourage the world to stop in it’s tracks and take another direction. But maybe instead of a loaded gun pointed at these officails why not spit in their faces. lol

    That would hurt their careers. A men’s group did this by protesting outside lawyers, judges and Psychologists homes and it has changed attitudes.

    Well, I’ll be. I have just realised what i want. What my goal is. To change the course of time. Now to put that into 30 words. And make a plan to do it. I think you will get alot of people involved at the University and I think I will too. You are right in saying that it is the right time. I also believe that. The pain is great.

  • MMX

    Gonzman – “As with any other contract – if the contract is breached, the one who breaches it pays a penalty.

    Yes, I understand that. But how does one “breach” a marriage contract? I know how to breach a business contract, but I’ve no idea how to breach a marriage one. You’ve never explained to anyone how this works.

    After that, you have to explain how to calculate the penalty after the breach. Again, this is very easy with business contracts, where items have prices, and multiplication can determine penalties. But this doesn’t apply to marriage contracts.

    “Your “wife” cannot be punished for cheating on you, having children by other men, disrespecting you, and a whole slew of other offenses.”

    You’re right. The State doesn’t have the power to punish people for doing such things, because the State doesn’t have the ability (like you don’t have the ability) to show how this behavior is a breach of the marriage contract.

    When a woman cheats, it’s tragic. But two things. (1) Without a clearly defined contract, you can’t ask the State to punish her. (2) A clearly defined contract must take into account his behavior as well as hers. If he gains 400 pounds and smells really bad, she can argue that this drove her to cheat. Is it a great argument? No. Does it cast reasonable doubt? Yes. Especially since the marriage contract isn’t clearly defined.

    It’s like I said before. It’s not sensible to become angry over the impossible. I don’t have the power to pick up a semi-truck, whirl it around 70 times, and send it into the sun. Getting mad at me isn’t going to help me do it.

    “Nothing like making an assertion, and a negative one at that, and then demanding to be proved wrong.

    Like you did with Julie? Or is it different because you did it? YOU made the assetrion that marriage contracts “are just like business contracts”. When I’ve asked you to prove this, you’ve given me easy-defeatable vaguaries and insults. And I’m nice enough to, for the third time ask you to clearly delineate how “marriage contracts are just like business contracts”.

    That’s YOUR assertion, not mine. So I’m not asking you to work for my behalf, but for YOURS. If you can’t do this, cede the point to me and move on.

    “What do you know? What can you possibly tell me, you little turd? I own a business, 5 houses, 300 acres of land, two trucks, 4 vans, and three cars. I have two children – who bloody send me mother’s day cards! – I travel, am actively dating and sleeping with five women…

    While it’s not exactly fair to write my answer in list form…

    (1) When a man speaks of his women and material possessions as if they were trophies to brag about, he’s not pretending.

    (2) That a man often seeks an excess of material goods in order to compensate for a weakness in other areas.

    (3) That five, five hundred, or five thousand women cannot give you what only one woman can.

    (4) Quoth the esteemed philosopher Crow, “If it makes you happy, then it can’t be that bad. If it makes you happy, then why the hell are you so sad?” You can convince me of a lot of things, but you can’t convince me of your happiness.

    (5) That there really are two groups of MRAs out there: the healthy and the unhealthy. Some MRAs are so hungry for male support that they’ll fire a neutral message which appeals to both crowds. And while this looks like strength in numbers, mixing two opposing groups together guarantees you won’t move.

    (6) That all I really really want from you is to explain how this whole “marriage contracts are just like business contracts” thing. It soudns awesome. And I’ve never heard it from anyone else before. But your examples don’t lead to anything concrete, and your insults make it seem like you’re bluffing. So, please, really, just explain how this works.

    (7) “You’re going to teach me what, puppy? How to tie myself down to one woman with some ridiculous state contract so I can worry about her and the government getting their grubby mitts on my property? Give me a break.” That I really don’t support the State. And that you only think I do because you’re oh so good at jumping to conclusions and then covering up the leap with insults.

    (8) “And yet, I have all the so-called “Benefits” to marriage.” No, you don’t. You’re missing something. And I know you’re missing something by the fact that people who have everything always behave in the same way. You’re not behaving that way. It really is that simple.

    (9) “Like Mr. Rudov, I get letters every week from men who put my advice to work and find it works, thanking me.”

    An expert businesman would be just as concerned with why something works as with whether something works.

    (10) “Who cares if I alienate you?” I could never understand how people could argue with one person, in front of many people, without realizing that an argument with one person is NEVER just with one person!

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/the-gonzman/ The Gonzman

    Oh, no. I did much more than that. You’ve declared yourself the expert on business contracts, and then accused the State of “not enforcing marriage contracts the way they enforce business contracts.”

    I merely pointed out that business contracts are simple to enforce because they deal with tangible things like money and washing machines. Marriage vows, however, deal with intangible things like love, honor, and cherishment.

    Marriage contractys – marriage vows – which one is it, Captain Illogic?

    Vow =! Contract. The vow is that spoken before God. The Contract is your piece of paper.

    Asshats like you tend to conflate the two – they are not the same. While you may think the vows are contracted, in the eyes of the state your marriage license (License = Privilege, not right) is purely pcuniary. Your “wife” cannot be punished for cheating on you, having children by other men, disrespecting you, and a whole slew of other offenses.

    You can, however, be forced to pay for a child which isn’t yours because you’re the “father.”

    Then I submitted so graciously to yoru expertise and asked you how, as an expert of business contracts, you would use them to enforce marriage contracts.

    As with any other contract – if the contract is breached, the one who breaches it pays a penalty.

    If my Wiring contractor fails to show up, for instance, not only does he not get paid, he pays for the expense of me hiring another at the last minute.

    For this, you’ve insulted me – not because I’m chivalrous, but because I revealed your anger to be over the impossible.

    Quoth MMX “assuming something is impossible, and then insulting people before they can even explain themselves is a sign of closed-mindedness”

    In fact, that’s why you’re really angry all the time. You want other people to give you the impossible, and then your try to angry-angry-angry at them until they give it to you.

    Handbook of Male Shaming Tactics – I believe the accusation of “Angryu” is number 6. You learn from your feminist mistresses well.

    Unless you can prove otherwise, the State cannot enforce marriage contracts,

    Nothing like making an assertion, and a negative one at that, and then demanding to be proved wrong.

    because they deal with the intangible. The State can only decide who gets the house, who kids the kids, and who pays what to whom. So your assertion that the State “can enforce marriage contracts just like they do business contracts” doesn’t make any sense. And thus, your anger is unjustified.

    LOL!

    That is the way the state enforces business contracts! IN THE BREACH!

    (Roaring with laughter)

    My God, you fool – I had a business partner back in the day who lost his share by not living up to “intangibles!” His bad behavior cost him.

    Fault based divorce did just that.

    Since your anger is based on the impossible,

    Quoth MMX: “assuming something is impossible, and then insulting people before they can even explain themselves is a sign of closed-mindedness”

    you would be better served to get rid of it. Insulting me doesn’t make your demands correct. It makes them impossible.

    Insulting you makes my demands impossible. I see.

    Refusing to see your flaws doesn’t make you strong. And insulting me doesn’t make you strong either.

    “Platitudes, you sanctimonious F*cknozzle. All you are is full of platitudes.

    That…and that fabulous list of traits to separate the healthy MRAs from the unhealthy ones. Keep in mind that, given you insult me so much, I don’t tell you everything I know. Why should I? You’re Angry-Divorced-Guy. Hell, with this anger….neevrmind. I don’t need to say what everyone else is already thinking.

    What do you know? What can you possibly tell me, you little turd? I own a business, 5 houses, 300 acres of land, two trucks, 4 vans, and three cars. I have two children – who bloody send me mother’s day cards! – I travel, am actively dating and sleeping with five women, and I am free of worrying that one is going to take me for my property or children. In fact, I am not beholden to ANYONE. I’m not even a hundred thousand dollars in debt, and I just roll that over to keep my credit up; I can sell one property and pay that off

    You’re going to teach me what, puppy? How to tie myself down to one woman with some ridiculous state contract so I can worry about her and the government getting their grubby mitts on my property? Give me a break.

    All the Great State Marriage Sham does is entitle that woman to quiver her lip tearfully during an ex-parte proceeding and say “I am afwaid” and wham-bam, I am screwed. She can toss me out anytime, and keep my stuff. Accuse me of God know what, and half of what I have is hers – and all of what she has is hers, too.

    Guess what, though – I sidestepped that error. I asked “What would enable me to be in a truly equal relationship where I could do that too?”

    The answer? DON’T GET “MARRIED!”

    My relationships are nopw equal. We both have the freedom to say “Later on!” We both walk ouit of it with what we brought into it. Either one of us acts the fool, and it’s “Adios!” No lawyers. No Judges. No government.

    And yet, I have all the so-called “Benefits” to marriage.

    My way works. You can argue with me, but you can’t argue with success.

    Except I never said that!

    My Thesis is that to enter into a state marriage contract is a sham. You disagree with it.

    While it may be technically true – in a “depends on what the word “is” means” sense – that it wasn’t uttered in so many words – How are you not saying that ?

    Angry people always look for people to fight! They make enemies out of non-enemies, because they’re so full of bile and hurt! Seriously! None of my arguments insist that a man must go to the State! None of them! You’re too busy seeing red that you’re not reading me correctly! Angry-angry-angry! Not make Gonzman strong! Make Gonzman waste energy fighting! Gonzman alienate everyone, except the other Angrys!

    Like Mr. Rudov, I get letters every week from men who put my advice to work and find it works, thanking me. They are getting their kids back, winning divorces, not entering into poisonous marriages, executing pre-nups, shielding their assets, and finding their lives all the better. I am helping my brothers.

    Who cares if I alienate you?

  • scottkirk

    julie…I plan on doing a major outreach push on college campases this fall!!
    In light of the duke university false rape hysteria and subsequent duke university lyncheings of innocent boys..they are ready for a message of change!!

    One needs to reach people where there at with a simple but effective plan..

    EVER WONDER WHY MEN IN
    1920 DIED 1 YEAR EARLIER THAN
    WOMEN AND MEN ARE NOW DYING
    ON AVERAGE 6 YEARS EARLIER???
    http://www.mens-links.net/home.asp
    http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/

    I make little businees size cards using my printer…and approach people in our university town by saying…

    “pardon me sir, I’m a mens health care activist..here’s some interesting information..check it out!!”

    their wallet size, and people easilly put them right into their wallet, and thank me!!!

  • amfortas

    Men and women WANT women and men. They are told otherwise. Women are given a shotgun to kill men with. Kill Marriages. Kill Love.

    It isn’t women who wield it. Specialist ‘shooters’ do that.

    Women’s part is in instigating a “Let’s you and him fight” game.

    We either don’t play – a marriage strike – or we fight the shooters.

    That shotgun is the Law. The Judges and the Courts and the Legislators are the enemy. They are the shooters. They are the ones set up to fight men. Their intent, though they say otherwise, is to destroy men’s love for women by having women destroy men’s faith in women. It is they how bully and dispossess, who take our children and our lives. They care not for the pain they cause. They get paid by the corpse.

    It would be nice to find the UberFeminazi in a lair somewhere and chuck a stick of dynamite in like Bruce, or even Ripley, but the reality is that she is spread out like a plague in the mind, mainly of women, but in planty of men too, and we see the stormtroopers in the Courts in their robes who do the damage. It is they we face before we can wipe out the plague.

    The Darrens of the world are the Van of the fight back. A small point at the moment, but I predict he will grow.

    The legislators will not change the Law for the better until they get hurt. The Judges will not stop enforcing the destruction of marriages and lives, until they get hurt.

    Meanwhile we must resist hurting one another. Direct righteous anger at the Judges and Legislators. No change will occur until Darrens take up arms and find a car park near the court-house.

    The shotgun is a shotgun. It has a shooter. The shooter is the enemy. Judges and Legislators.

    It is ironic that they even want us to vote them in so that they can kill us.

    Get in first and vote them out with a differently spelt ballot.

  • http://www.singleparents.org.nz julie

    DadWith2Girls,

    lol, my comments are nothing more than waffling on.

    But you have asked me for an idea. Before I write something about this I just want to expalin that I have been doing alot of listening to alot of people (men mainly) in the community. Everything I thought might be worthwhile will not be. Infact, men do discuss these things all the time. Conventions at a National level make ideas but nothing comes from it. Smaller meetings happen in my area often and still nothing happens. It just gets discussed and discussed. Even politicians want to give support but something stops things from going ahead. Some of it may be that male groups work at a level of providing a service and intellects all fight one another.

    DV research is apparently 20 years old and they say it is still at a begginning stage. It is becoming hard for them to get funding because other intellectuals challenge whether their research is of any value and then the women’s groups are struggling with funding themselves. But they get alot more than the men’s groups. So, I learn and I learn. And then I spoke with males that are Gay thinking they might be a way in but they already hahve a big movement Nationally. it seems, ooking from the outside that if the men really wanted to change things they could and would have. But they say it is not that simple because they themsleves don’t have an answer. Everytime someone puts a thought forward, someone else has facts of outliers that destroy the idea. So, I wonder whether or not there is an answer.

    Anyhow, at present some males have given their support and I have to explain in 30 words or less what my goal is. What do I want? I thought maybe a men’s affairs like a women’s affairs.

    And then someone else has instructed to me to make a plan.

    I am full of creative ideas and I have no problem to put the work in.

    I am not really excited by being here. I am just looking for ideas for what i want.

    Shared parenting is a good thing but then still the females can use DV orders to stop the dads seeing their children unsupervised.

    So, I am thinking more in line with making as many people aware that there is a movement. At present I am making a 2 page flyer and distributing it around the Universities. I don’t know whether I should challenge feminism or just put forward men’s rights as in Human rights. I have been told that I will not get far pulling feminism down. I have had a little communication with the Human Rights Commission and at the top level. They are aware of the issues and say that they are putting something into a plan. The only problem is that all the commissions are run by feminists whether men or women. It is like all the people on the ground are asleep. lol

  • MMX

    Let the woman learn at her own pace, DW2G.

  • DadWith2Girls

    julie,

    Is there some point in the sequence of your posts when you might actually start to create some CONTENT?

    i.e. –

    write something like a paragraph with an actual idea?

    An actual thought with a noun, verb, and perhaps a concept?

    Why are you posting here, dear?

    Your “enjoyment” no doubt excites you.

    Please.

    lol

  • http://www.singleparents.org.nz julie

    MMX, Comment 78.

    I didn’t know there was a myth like that. It makes alot of sense to what is going on.

    I am really enjoying this thread. Except for the ^%^$% words. lol

  • MMX

    Gonzman – So far, you contemptible buffoon You’ve done nothinbg but…”

    Oh, no. I did much more than that. You’ve declared yourself the expert on business contracts, and then accused the State of “not enforcing marriage contracts the way they enforce business contracts.”

    I merely pointed out that business contracts are simple to enforce because they deal with tangible things like money and washing machines. Marriage vows, however, deal with intangible things like love, honor, and cherishment.

    Then I submitted so graciously to yoru expertise and asked you how, as an expert of business contracts, you would use them to enforce marriage contracts.

    For this, you’ve insulted me – not because I’m chivalrous, but because I revealed your anger to be over the impossible. In fact, that’s why you’re really angry all the time. You want other people to give you the impossible, and then your try to angry-angry-angry at them until they give it to you.

    Unless you can prove otherwise, the State cannot enforce marriage contracts, because they deal with the intangible. The State can only decide who gets the house, who kids the kids, and who pays what to whom. So your assertion that the State “can enforce marriage contracts just like they do business contracts” doesn’t make any sense. And thus, your anger is unjustified.

    “Since you’re “not a statist” MMX, I guess this shouldn’t bother you. State can’t “keep” your vows, can they? Can’t “sanctify” your marriage, can it? Since you claim not to worship the state, it shouldn’t matter a whit if you are married in any meanigful way and just don’t have the State’s (Holy, holy, holy!) blessing on your union? Right?

    Right…and wrong.

    Since your anger is based on the impossible, you would be better served to get rid of it. Insulting me doesn’t make your demands correct. It makes them impossible. Refusing to see your flaws doesn’t make you strong. And insulting me doesn’t make you strong either.

    “Platitudes, you sanctimonious F*cknozzle. All you are is full of platitudes.

    That…and that fabulous list of traits to separate the healthy MRAs from the unhealthy ones. Keep in mind that, given you insult me so much, I don’t tell you everything I know. Why should I? You’re Angry-Divorced-Guy. Hell, with this anger….neevrmind. I don’t need to say what everyone else is already thinking.

    “Or is their a reason – besides your abject idiocy – that you keep pushing the whole “You’re marriage isn’t a real marriage without the Permission Slip from Mommy Government” meme?

    Except I never said that! Angry people always look for people to fight! They make enemies out of non-enemies, because they’re so full of bile and hurt! Seriously! None of my arguments insist that a man must go to the State! None of them! You’re too busy seeing red that you’re not reading me correctly! Angry-angry-angry! Not make Gonzman strong! Make Gonzman waste energy fighting! Gonzman alienate everyone, except the other Angrys!

  • MMX

    Julie – There’s a Greek myth. Humans were created by the Titans, and consisted of a man fused with a woman at the hip. But the Olympians so feared the power of this new creature that they begged the Titans to split humans into men and women, so that they would waste so much energy trying to find each other that they wouldn’t be able to rebel against Olympus.

  • DadWith2Girls

    Damn!

    I am so apologizing for my post #1 above.

    All of this tangential blather and gossip and bad theory…. and a whole lotta great diversionary story-lines! (MND is a dangerous collective narrative…. Mike LaSalle clearly understands this …)

    All I initially wanted to say was —

    “vaginas are (theoretically) dangerous.”

    This thread proves why feminists are totally correct in being afraid of the men’s rights’ movement.

    Inherent male logic and its dangerous tendency to link concepts and arguments and satire and irony is always on display, even during the most vehement disagreements … the kind that end most female friendships and turn feminist blogs into hormonal conflagrations.

    MND-MRA Fight Club?

    Not really. Not ever.

    Just a matter of afew decent blokes attempting to discern what is still true….

    Good to see that the playful spirit of the “evil” patriarchy is still alive and well!

  • scottkirk

    puke up the poisin you’ve been fed, and well get down to the business of liberateing men from feminist social control!!

  • scottkirk

    damn gonz..I hope you feel better after that one!! you just puked up some serious bile bro!!!

  • http://www.singleparents.org.nz julie

    mruffolo,

    Your comment 57 was awesome.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/the-gonzman/ The Gonzman

    So far, you contemptible buffoon, despite your protestations of “I am Not so a Statist!” (I will leave it to the reader to insert the flounce of your hair and the stamp of your petite and delicate little foot). You’ve done nothinbg but exhibiot the same, lemming like chivalry that so many on the far-right exhibit. Keep sucking it up. Be a man. Take it on the chin.

    What a joke you are.

    So why haven’t you? Right. Cuz it’s impossible.

    And then…

    Your Tactic of assuming something is impossible, and then insulting people before they can even explain themselves is a sign of closed-mindedness. If God cannot fix that, why should I be expected to?

    Your words, @$$tard – not mine.

    So, you’re suggestion is… more of the same.

    Well, hell – why didn’t *WE* think of that?

    Platitudes, you sanctimonious F*cknozzle. All you are is full of platitudes. “Pick a woman who won’t do that to you.” No sh!t, Sherlock? Gosh, go ahead and hand that loaded gun to a woman – just pick one who won’t pull the trigger on you.

    Well, hell. Our problems are all solved. Someone notify LaSalle, we can start pulling the plugs here and selling the furnishings on eBay

    Or – and this is crazy enough to work – you can get married all you want. You can make those promises that only two people can make and keep anyway. You can execute legal documents such as wills, power of attorney, etc. Everything that is associated with marriage and makes it meaningful and sacred…

    …Except for that piece of paper which allows the State to come in and hose you.

    Since you’re “not a statist” MMX, I guess this shouldn’t bother you. State can’t “keep” your vows, can they? Can’t “sanctify” your marriage, can it? Since you claim not to worship the state, it shouldn’t matter a whit if you are married in any meanigful way and just don’t have the State’s (Holy, holy, holy!) blessing on your union? Right?

    RIGHT?

    Or is their a reason – besides your abject idiocy – that you keep pushing the whole “You’re marriage isn’t a real marriage without the Permission Slip from Mommy Government” meme?

    And all a lot simpler than convoluted, Rube Goldberg sham marriages. Just say no to big brother.

    Just declare your freedom to do as you will.

    I know it’s scary with your snivelling, craven, slave mentality. And hey – rather than lie to the state and live your life in the shadows, being a man and openly saying “Screw You” is probably beyond you, you p*ssy-whipped, conformist bedwetter.

    Pathetic.

  • MMX

    Burton – The marriage strike is a weapon that MRAs can use to bring down the system. Very simple: it should be our stated position that no man will marry until all demands of the men’s movement are met. Period.

    Period? More like dot-dot-dot…

    Yes, the marriage strike can be a weapon that good men can use to bring down “The System”. But it also can be a weapon by which lazy and unproductive men justify their inactivity and glorify the freedom that the feminist destruction of marriage has wrought.

    How to tell the difference between the two.

    A good man will openly state that the best chance a man has for developing spiritually is through getting married and having children, while a bad man will cheer about the fact that he can get “just as good” without getting married.

    A good man will state that the ideal of a happy marriage never changes, regardless of how much the outside world deteriorates. While an unproductive and lazy man will taunt anyone who declares that excellent marriage is the ideal. His entire message reduces itself to, “Neeener, neener! You can’t make me get married!”

    A good man will take it upon himself to actively petition for a change in laws so that all men can respectfully and reasonably be married. While an unproductive and lazy man revels in each divorce, and reads every “horrible divorce” story as a chance to brag about how smart he is to bever get married.

    A good man knows that marriage is good for both men and women, so he wants women to make the right choices – to marry upstanding, respectable, and successful men. While an unproductive and lazy man will collect stories of women who make horrible choices, and revel in the pain that they create. (If they’re really hardcore about this, they’ll make a signature like, “Suck it up bitches!” and make a name for themselves solely by commenting on these “Woman ruins her life with her stupidity” stories.)

    A good man knows that marriage is a good thing for men, so he’s always urging them to learn how to do it well, to become successful and responsible, and to learn how to evaluate women. While an unproductive and lazy man encourages men to enjoy their freedom, not worry about their own development, and watch the destruction of society.

    “Already, you can see politicians passing more laws to restrict men’s choices by expanding co-habitation law to become de facto marriage, by limiting men’s ability to marry foreign women. All passed by the usual mob of hypocrites and felons in government.”

    And, yet, no one has suggested how to use the laws against them.

    1. If gay marriage becomes a reality, every MRA can marry another MRA. (After all, the State can’t define whether a person is “really gay” or “really married”). After that, if the State declares an MRA to be married to a woman through co-habitation, then the State has deliberately made him guilty of bigamy.

    2. Even without gay marriage, a man can live in two places: the house with his “wife” (no State marriage needed), and the house with his “cover woman”. The “cover woman” is a trusted friend whom he is not in love with. Since, he’s splitting time between two dwellings, then the State will also make him guilty of bigamy if it declares him married to either woman. (Because if the standard works for Woman A, then it must also work for Woman B.)

    3. Even with a “cover woman”, a man can live with another couple. John is in love with Jane, and David is in love with Diane. If the State declares John married to Jane, then it must also declare him married to Diane. If it makes this move, it makes the man guilty of bigamy.

    It should require no explanation that men who wish only to revel in their single status will never devote their creativity to ensuring that other men can get married, or to use the State against itself.

  • MMX

    Gonzman – “Crystal Ball? Chicken Entrails? Amazing Psychic Powers with Springtime Fresh Scent? What do you use, Karnak?

    Again, this kind of name-calling doesn’t suit you well. How much do you know about my methods? ZERO. So, why do you have an opinion of them ahead of time? Gonzman, not even God tries to teach a man who has closed his heart and mind. And since my creatvie powers are far short of Divine, you’ll understand why I cannot answer your question until your attitude is fixed.

    You have yet to demonstrate any such thing, sirrah.

    To you? No, I haven’t. Columbus couldn’t convince the majority of his contemporaries that the world was round, because they were too devoted to their own belief systems to consider his words. Even today people insist that the moon landing is fake, because they first began with the notion that it was impossible to reach the moon, and then they never left it.

    Your Tactic of assuming something is impossible, and then insulting people before they can even explain themselves is a sign of closed-mindedness. If God cannot fix that, why should I be expected to?

  • infidel

    sc567 said: “…my reply you’re asking was already in the thread I’m refering to, because it has much more to do with the EG-stuff than this article.”

    Maybe EG should keep his ‘nebulae are life-forms’ folly in his own articles/threads. If he brings up his religion here, I can refute it here so people on this thread can also see what a fool he is.

  • MMX

    Gonzman – “I am a businessman, sirrah. The State enforces business contracts all the time.

    Right. Business contracts involving the selling of tangible things like washing machines. Those are easy to enforce! “Your Honor, John said he would sell me 650 rollers at $45 by June 2nd 2007, but he only delivered 620 rollers!” The judge can clearly order John to either (a) produce 30 more rollers or (b) give John $1350. Any additional fines and punishments will be meted out at the judge’s disrection according to business law.

    But tell me, Gonzman, how does a judge make one man cherish a woman? How does it make one woman honor a man? Can a judge order your ex-wife to love you? And can she make her love you extra in order to make up for her lack of love from earlier in the relationship?

    Seriously, if you could tell me how to do this, you’d be unfathomably wealthy. If you could patent a pink liquid called Love, Honor, and Cherish juice, and sell it to newlyweds, you’d own America.

    So why haven’t you? Right. Cuz it’s impossible.

  • infidel

    sc567 said: “if you think EG’s stuff is dumb, why wasting so much energy?”

    I have my reasons.

    SK, speak for yourself, not for me. Don’t put words in my mouth.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/the-gonzman/ The Gonzman

    The state doesn’t have the power to enforce the marriage contract!

    I am a businessman, sirrah. The State enforces business contracts all the time.

    It isn’t a question of “can’t,” sirrah – it is a question of “Won’t.”

    Just like the State doesn’t have the power to prevent me from being murdered! (It can punish the guy after I’m dead, but that’s not the same thing.) Just like the State cannot prevent me from being robbed. (It can punish the robber for me, and maybe get me my stuff back, but that’s not the same thing either.)

    Of course, dumbfnuck, contracts can only be enforced in the breach of them. Your grasp of the obvious is staggering. Fault divorce used to do that – behave badly, breach your contract – pay the price. No fault – does not – it’s useless.

    PS – Name-calling makes you look like a girl.

    Yeah, I know I hit the mark, Commander Obtuse.

    But I do disagree with you. Your approach is a big sham, and I can see through it. I’ll let my next reply to Burton form the substance of my objections.

    Demonstrating something? By You?

    Well, I suppose there is a first for everything. We wait with baited breath, El Stupido.

    Except that’s not what the State says. It says, “If you marry someone who wants to use the strap on you, and she does so, then we’re not gonna bail you out.” My immunity comes not from the State, btu in my ability to judge the people I’m with.

    Crystal Ball? Chicken Entrails? Amazing Psychic Powers with Springtime Fresh Scent? What do you use, Karnak?

    The state says exactly that in my business dealings, sirrah. I signed a contract today with a vendor. My vendor tries to hose me – I can take that vendor to court, and collect damages. Why won’t the state do that in a domestic partnership contract?

    What use is it? Why do I then need the state to “register” something, and get their permission? Why do you need state sponsored marriage?

    This is also why blaming the State disempowers men, because the State cannot teach a man to evaluate women, to clean himself of unrealistic expectations of marriage, and to have a back-up plan in case it all goes wrong. All three of these things are a man’s responsibility and duty.

    Exactly what I say – except that I don’t urge men to, after doing all that, torpedo themselves by binding their agreements to arbitration by a hostile, and corrupt, system.

    That’s the $64,000 question, isn’t it? But when you call my workable and reliable approaches “being a control freak”, are you really interested in learning the process?

    You have yet to demonstrate any such thing, sirrah.

    Or are you more interested in protecting your position of, “I couldn’t help it! No man could possibly help it! Nothing can be done!”?

    Bullshit. Something can be done. The minute you get off the government tit, stoip registering yourself with them, and understand that a woman of true quality wouldn’t insist you put yourself under the authority of the state, you solve many problems.

    PS – the “control freak” thing. Name calling really does make you look like a girl.

    Ah, shaming language. How very feminist of you. Learn that from Hugo Schwyzer, a$$tard?

  • MMX

    Gonzman – “Why no, mon idiote, it is the state’s refusal to enforce the marriage which makes it useless. This makes going to the state – for a contract which won’t be enforced – stupid.”

    The state doesn’t have the power to enforce the marriage contract! Just like the State doesn’t have the power to prevent me from being murdered! (It can punish the guy after I’m dead, but that’s not the same thing.) Just like the State cannot prevent me from being robbed. (It can punish the robber for me, and maybe get me my stuff back, but that’s not the same thing either.)

    PS – Name-calling makes you look like a girl.

    “And here I thought you disagreed with me, when you were just being disagreeable.”

    But I do disagree with you. Your approach is a big sham, and I can see through it. I’ll let my next reply to Burton form the substance of my objections.

    “Of course, you are presuming that if the state gives a woman a “Use the Strap-On on MMX” that you will be immune because you’re such a helluva guy.

    Except that’s not what the State says. It says, “If you marry someone who wants to use the strap on you, and she does so, then we’re not gonna bail you out.” My immunity comes not from the State, btu in my ability to judge the people I’m with.

    This is also why blaming the State disempowers men, because the State cannot teach a man to evaluate women, to clean himself of unrealistic expectations of marriage, and to have a back-up plan in case it all goes wrong. All three of these things are a man’s responsibility and duty.

    What I “permitted” my wife to get away with, sirrah, is what? What should a man do, especially in this day and age? Short of violence, how exactly can you dissuade someone from doing something which, however morally objectionable you may find it, is perfectly legal and within their rights as a citizen to do?

    That’s the $64,000 question, isn’t it? But when you call my workable and reliable approaches “being a control freak”, are you really interested in learning the process? Or are you more interested in protecting your position of, “I couldn’t help it! No man could possibly help it! Nothing can be done!”?

    PS – the “control freak” thing. Name calling really does make you look like a girl.

  • scottkirk

    burton…The marraige strike…set up a site, and see who signs on!!!

  • http://home.earthlink.net/~jamiranda/GWPindex.html Burton

    The marriage strike is a weapon that MRAs can use to bring down the system. Very simple: it should be our stated position that no man will marry until all demands of the men’s movement are met. Period. If women value marriage so much then they can get behind men’s rights. Or else! What can women do if men just say NO to marriage? Nothing.

    Of course, the real problem is not so much women, but with men in power who suck up to female voters, and who enhance their own personal power by putting down other men. Already, you can see politicians passing more laws to restrict men’s choices by expanding co-habitation law to become de facto marriage, by limiting men’s ability to marry foreign women. All passed by the usual mob of hypocrites and felons in government.

    MRAs need to take seriously the statement that “marriage is the foundation of society.” We need to realize that this very society is the problem. Because by attacking marriage, we can bring down this rotten edifice that has its boot on our necks.

    Now at this point I hear someone saying, “But wait, without marriage we will have more crime, more drugs, more social disorder.” Duh! That is what we want–to unleash the forces of chaos which we can exploit in order to bring down the system. Men need to realize that we are in the same position as the civil rights movement was prior to Brown vs Board of Education. We have become second class citizens. We face an oppressive system. Did segregation go away because of a court decision? No. It took mass acts of civil disobedience, it took uprisings in the ghettoes. It took millions of people in the streets. It took social disorder, the complete alienation of youth, mass drug use to expand minds, in order to bring about real civil rights.

    Today, it will take radical and sometimes revolutionary action to bring down the anti-male system.

    Who in their right mind thinks that the “family court” system will go away of its own accord? Or that the prison-industrial complex is going to lose all the millions of men who are being sucked into it? Or that the lawyers who have made a racket out of “sexual harassment” suits will give up their six-seven figure salaries to make us happy? Or that university womyn’s studies programs are going to dissolve themselves and instead teach something rational, like engineering?

    Just to give an example: MRAs talk about ending the all-male draft. Well, the draft was ended in the 1970s not because the government decided to be nice, but because there were millions of people in the streets protesting it, because the draft radicalized much of the armed forces. The government ended the draft because the alternative was revolution and mutiny. I know, I was in the armed forces in the 1970s. Going to the all-volunteer system probably saved the country.

    So we have our historical example. Let’s stop thinking we can win this by some sort of magic trick. Time to bring down the system! Start by saying “no” to marriage.

  • scottkirk

    Infidel understands E.G’s message may help men find the strength within themselves to liberate their brothers from femi-nazi social control!!

    A country cannot continue to jail thousands of innocent men…divide and conquer hundreds of thousands of fathers from sons..

    They might win some innitial battles (which they have) but they also sow the seeds of their demise!!

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/the-gonzman/ The Gonzman

    Except, Super-Angry Divorced Guy, I’m not a Statist. I get it. You’re Super-Angry Divorced Guy, so you get to make all sorts of wild accusatiosn against me. Whereas, since I’ve Never-Been-Divorced Guy, then I have no excuse. Your pain gives you license.

    What it makes you is a blowhard who doesn’t know what he is talking about, super-stupid @ssbag.

    At 12:00pm you say that people don’t need permission from the State to get married. But at 12:01pm, you say it’s the State’s responsibility to enforce the marriage vows. These two ideas are self-contradictory. Because only those with power can deny permission. If my father forbids me from marrying a woman, it’s only because he has power: more life experience, better judge of character, better sense of who I am, and so on. But if my father is a moron, then his forbiddence is insignificant.

    Why no, mon idiote, it is the state’s refusal to enforce the marriage which makes it useless. This makes going to the state – for a contract which won’t be enforced – stupid.

    Try to follow along, lump of coal for brains – if I offered you a business contract with similar enforcement provisions to marriage, you’d be a dunderhead to take it. You’d prefer doing without, seeking someone truly trustworthy, and doing business on a handshake.

    Men who portray marriage as a State-created problem only sit back and wait for the State to fix things. Whereas men who see marriage as a personal duty both (a) fight against the State’s perspective and (b) have the ability to marry happily despite the rising divorce rates.

    Men who portray marriage as a State-created problem don’t understand that values are the currency by which marriages either succeed or fail, not State enforcement!

    Hmmm – so the state is useless, and two people can make a real marriage without a piece of paper, because it is them, not the “state” which make the marriage?

    And here I thought you disagreed with me, when you were just being disagreeable.

    You might not believe this, but if the government gave me a card which said, “MMX is entitled to rape one woman and be free of prosecution.”, I would never exercise that permit! Why not? My values don’t permit me to engage in such behavior.

    Excellent.

    Of course, you are presuming that if the state gives a woman a “Use the Strap-On on MMX” that you will be immune because you’re such a helluva guy.

    But when men espouse that the State is to blame, they do so because it moves the discussion away from Values and towards the power of the State. For when the discussion is centered on Values, then every divorced man has to crucially examine his own Values to see what he permitted his wife to get away with. (John, she told you she admires the characters from “Sex and the City” and you married her anyway!?!? What were you thinking!?!?)

    And it’s really difficult to claim Moral Sanction Through A Painful Divorce while constantly fielding questions about your own conduct… (Where did you meet? When did you sleep with her? Did you observe how her mother treats her father? Did you outline the rules by which she must conduct herself, or did you leave it all to fate?)

    Control freak. Explains a lot.

    Naturally, since these questions are designed to make a man realize, “Well, damn. I shouldn’t have done that! I guess I played a major role in creating my own pain…”, some men do their damnedest to assure that no one is allowed to ask them.

    And naturally, since it is easy for a self-righteous prig to pontificate from a position of abject ignorance, the attempt to do so to try to make themselves look smart.

    What I “permitted” my wife to get away with, sirrah, is what? What should a man do, especially in this day and age? Short of violence, how exactly can you dissuade someone from doing something which, however morally objectionable you may find it, is perfectly legal and within their rights as a citizen to do?

    Didn’t think so.

    Thanks for playing.

  • sc567

    @infidel

    my reply you’re asking was already in the thread I’m refering to, because it has much more to do with the EG-stuff than this article.

    And if you think EG’s stuff is dumb, why wasting so much energy?

  • infidel

    sc567, I was commenting on what you said re ‘right brain’, not on what EG says. I don’t know what EG says about ‘right brain’. Also, I have not even read the EG article you refer to and I have not commented on it. EG’s articles are so full of dumb and dubious assertions that I might not even read it at all.

  • sc567

    The split-of wherein infidel comments again on Elder George is continued in http://mensnewsdaily.com/2007/07/26/response-to-change/#comment-48205

  • infidel

    sc567, when people say use right brain thinking they seem to be downplaying use of the left brain, which is more logical. It’s as if they are saying, you’ll be better off if you are not logical.

    The fact is that we need to use *both* sides of the brain as much as possible, not one or the other. Who wants to shut off one side and think with just half a brain?

    Anyway, the link below shows that the idea that the ‘right brain’ and ‘left brain’ think differently has been greatly exaggerated. So if by ‘right brain’ you mean, for example, be more artistic, then why not just say, “be more artistic”?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateralization_of_brain_function

  • mruffolo

    The issue of marriage and divorce is not new. Below is wisdom from about the year 30 AD.

    And Pharisees [Pastors] came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one’s wife for any cause?”

    He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”

    They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?” He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”

    The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” But he said to them, “Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs [castrated man] who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.”

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2019;&version=47;

    Wisdom to men about dealing with women from one of the smartest men who ever lived – Solomon. He wrote this about 3,000 years ago.

    “I turned my heart to know and to search out and to seek wisdom and the scheme of things, and to know the wickedness of folly and the foolishness that is madness. And I find something more bitter than death: the woman whose heart is snares and nets, and whose hands are fetters. He who pleases God escapes her, but the sinner is taken by her. Behold, this is what I found, says the Preacher, while adding one thing to another to find the scheme of things— which my soul has sought repeatedly, but I have not found. One man among a thousand I found, but a woman among all these I have not found.”

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=25&chapter=7&version=47

    The best government governs least – abolish family court.

  • infidel

    sc567 you are confused.

  • infidel

    sc567 said: “Don’t get yourself stuck in details: words are ambiguous and imperfect.”

    Why are so many people so quick to excuse EG’s dumb mistakes? EG says nebula are alive and you try to defend that indefensible statement. No, it’s not a problem with words, it’s a problem with EG who is often saying things that make no sense. Nebulae are not alive. Just admit it. If EG says otherwise it’s up to him to prove himself, explain himself, or correct himself.

    sc567 said: “Switch on your ‘right brain’ (symbolism, allegory, concepts) …”

    Don’t give me this right brain nonsense. Symbolism, allegory, and concepts are all supposed to make sense and should be explained. Why does EG seem to find it so hard to come up with “symbolism” (or whatever) that makes sense?

  • http://www.singleparents.org.nz julie

    Sorry about my spelling mistakes in comment 53

  • http://www.singleparents.org.nz julie

    How interesting you comment is fourthwind. no. 51.

    Gonzman IS right and I have read a few of his articles and one in particular stands out. The one where he met up with a man who had put him down for fighting men’s rights and holding a group for men. And yet this man who put him down now needs his help and understands. How ironic. What a predigament for Gonzman.

    I find that also. Men who are married think that the men who are divorced somehow brought it upon themselves. As if somehow they make mistakes. And you have to wonder whether you want to turn the other cheek. Or throw shite back in their face.

    What is REAL is that this is often true. And if Gonzman is honest to MMX he would say that he does get a number of men in his group that SHOULD take responsibility for what has happened to them. The sad part is that it is easy to look from the outside and judge where someone went wrong. I too have groups for single parents and today there are single fathers. And many of them are young because their women are so screwed up that they are left with them and continue on being a provider and protector. They don’t like to take the state funding yet some do because they will cruise with life instead of trying to fight. But then I have also known many case for the past 2 decades (as a girl, not woman way back then) where women have just walked out on their children and the state has had to step in. Can you imagine what it is like for children to come home to a note that says, “Sorry, I won’t be coming back. ” And then they get locked up as criminals while the state decides to devide them and provide only the basics. I don’t buy this behaviour.

    But that is nothing compared to the kids that have 2 parents who are both too busy at the pub and/or gambling and collecting welfare cheques to put food on the table or do homework or God forbid ask their kids how their day went. Why, because the state has screwed up men and women. We are 4 generations down the track of feminism in some families.

    Gonxman is way to busy to even remember me and that I first spoke on this site when he made an article that said, Welcome one and all, even conspiracy people. I was open enough to write, “Thanx for the invitation.”

    I am all the way in NZ and yet I have people around me who know the Rockefellers personally. Very bad bunch this lot.

    Some of their ideas are sensible. Sure, if I was running the world, I would have the same ideas. People are idiots on the whole. So I too have the right to say, “Why is this my problem?”

    Gonxman has picked one small piece of the problem and yet just as the men in my country who are doing the same thing he is realising, (this is just my opinion) that he has the answer but things are so far down the track that it is near impossible to rectify it.

    But he is 100% right on what he says. We have a section in 2 laws that make men obsolete. Seriously, this is bad.

    And MMX, you have to understand that although you may not like the messenger, the message is real. You may be worthwhile to your wife at present but your mankind is obsolete to society, in fact all western society and growing through India, Hong Kong, Japan, China and the eastern countries. Our group did a documentary for the Japanese Government because we have the highest rate of single parents in the world. Yes, feminism is so big here but it is not that it is so big that is the probelm but that it is so powerful. Our leaders are aboslutely radical. And the leaders coming up. Why, because they only think that men are BAD, BAD, BAD, BAD. And why do they think this? Because they only deal with women who are hurting and only care for them. They don’t care for the children over the age of 12.

    Give me a break. Boys over 12 get testoterone. Now they are looking to put them in prison like an adult. We have such a fatherless problem that we are insane. Seriously insane. And every man or males group that steps up to care is confronted by radical feminists that say men must pay for something that didn’t even happen. They say men controlled women for thousadns of years hyet they don’t get it. Men were not controlling these women. They were providing for them. If a woman had a job, every other woman and man saw this as the man could not provide. Instead of looking at the truth of history we get fed bullshit of someone’s screwed up idea. We get leaders who are trying to push the answers of their onw personal life onto us.

    Learn MMX, learn. Gonzman is not the message. But don’t worry, I too take people on face value. In fact, i am one of these people who look at the person speaking to me when I decide to listen or not. It can be frustrating listening to MRA when you are like this because you judge the person who is giving you the truth instead of the truth itself. Don’t give up challenging and learning. All you ned is an open mind to accept truth. And Gonzman is only one person in this. There are many and you WILL find the one or two or three or so that you can relate to.

  • sc567

    #37 infidel said,

    EG said: “From the largest nebula down to the smallest form of life know as the monera, all life engages in that activity.”

    Nebulae are clouds of gas and dust, they are not life forms.
    July 25, 2007 at 9:01 pm

    Don’t get yourself stuck in details: words are ambiguous and imperfect. For some things we don’t have words, so we use existing terms.
    Switch on your ‘right brain’ (symbolism, allegory, concepts) to paint the picture and derive the point from it.

    #38 infidel said,

    EG said: “Only in the West, which has a feminine materialistic psyche …”

    The whole world seems to be materialistic George. Is Russia a paragon of spirituality? What about warlord-run Africa? See much nobility there? What about communist/atheistic China? What about Japan? And do you think intolerant hate-filled muslims are really spiritual?
    July 25, 2007 at 9:09 pm

    Which are the most powerful countries? The western, exporting their ‘stuff’ all over the world.

    Forgot about India? Tibet? Point is all main religions originate somewhere on the Asian continent. What seeds religion? Spirituality. As said: switch on your ‘right brain’.

  • fourthwire

    “No, it’s not the Gonzman’s argument I cannot refute, but his approach.

    Think about it. Humans have been alive for thousands of years before the Gonzman was born, and they’ll likely persist for thousands of years after he dies. The vast majority of human beings before his existence believed in marriage in some form or another. Future humans will likely believe in marriage, too. ”

    Focus please, MMX. There was never any doubt that you cannot refute the Gonzman’s argument that marriage in America today provides men with NOTHING beneficial or enjoyable (he provided a partial listing of such activities) that are not also available to men WITHOUT MARRIAGE.

    Furthermore, enjoying those same activities without marriage means less unnecessary significant risks to men’s financial, emotional and other aspects of health and well-being.

    In other words, the Gonzman’s “approach” is factual and objective….. which no doubt fails to connect with anything in the space between your ears.

    Marriage in the past and marriage in the future does not improve those legal, social, civil, and criminal circumstances that provide marriage in America with such unnecessary significant risks for men TODAY.

    “But instead he says, “I’m such a big individual, that everyone else has to prove the worth of marriage for me.” His aggressive questioning of julie was not designed to find a sincere answer, but instead to intimidate a woman who is stronger, healthier, and more concerned with the world than he is.”

    Focus again please. And try to stop thinking with your ovaries. When you attempt to pawn such an addled attempt at logic off as an “argument”, you no doubt inadvertently propel anyone at least slightly more intelligent than a bucket of pond water somewhere near “rocket scientist”.

    For starters, your concern about the Gonzman “bullying” Julie is amusingly misplaced. For all of her self-admitted ignorance about the nature of men’s rights issues, at least she’s not nearly as self-deluded and apparently stupid as you seem to be. Frankly you ought to be concerned with being heaped with a fair bit of scorn and ridicule yourself, based on your apparent inability to separate present-day realities and facts from your brain-damaged blathering on the topic of men’s risks through marriage in America.

    “Thus, fourthwire, it’s not his argument, but his arrogance. No man can defeat another man’s arrogance.”

    LOL……….. Actually I find YOUR “arrogance” trying to foist off such a lame attempt at an argument as having the scarcest hint of credibility far worse than any of the Gonzman’s posts that I’ve ever read.

    You are well over your head trying to dispute either his argument OR his wording on the nature of marriage in America today.

    He’s spot-on….. and Julie is apparently doing just fine without your rather clueless “support”. Any woman who lacks the intestinal fortitude to read blunt posts on MND can always turn on their television to watch and hear no end of programming devoid of any relevance to men’s issues.







Right.

Man up.

Buy the book now on Amazon.com. Or listen to Ronnie tell a story at escaping-from-reality.com.

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