On your last post here we are in agreement. The earlier post were a different subject that I did not want to bother others with another long post. I personally have very low opinions of organized religions including christian. I think most churches could close their doors with little effect around them. Still my faith in God and His word is strong not just because of what I have been taught ( I was raised in a cult ) but what I have seen. When did any bud ah, mohamed, etc. with proven proof do anything? Not one of the other beliefs gives anything but an after life promise where as Jesus not only promise an after life reward but help now in this life.

0

My main concerns are:
- That a dogmatic approach to a theological/philosophical question balkanizes the country, leaving it vulnerable to “divide and conquer” by politicians and others who desire our downfall;
- That the Word of God has been corrupted by forces working against Order, and that the corrupted version is the one in use, since the political institutions benefitting from the corruption still exist, and neither want to admit guilt, nor give up power.

And the humble don’t seek power and glory, so we get the “leaders” we deserve, and we are steered closer and closer to oblivion.

Gonna be a fun ride… I think I’ll be in another country when it happens.

Charles J. Trask

Let’s add to the issue. We’ll go farther back.
The Gospels were part of the Jewish Oral tradition, inferring from your comments, which were written down – I.E., committed to a fixed form – a century or more after the events they tell about. Even if people lived to the ripe old age of 50, that’s three generations. And for someone of the time to live to 100 is at best uncommon.
So we look some basic mathematical principles.
Oral History + multiple tellings + old/ancient languages + translations of IDEAS from foreign tongues + only ONE source of information + lots of wars + internal church politics + Protestant Reformation + Inquisition + fuzzy memories + REtranslation from OTHER languages (I.E., Ancient Greek to high Latin to Old Englishe to Middle English to Modern english) = we have a basic idea that SOMETHING of major import happened between about 33 AD and modern times.

We can’t assume things are verbatim. ASSUME, not “Accept on faith.” Faith precludes judgement. Precludes evaluation and examination. Inquisition DOES ring a bell… Much like some of Elder George’s comments tend to focus on a man NOT being a generic cog in the machine of society, society wants productive laborers. The inquisition wanted no questions. Gallileo, anyone?

This is not meant to question the faith you have espoused. That is admirable, and to find ways to defend it is good. But to defend it to the point that niggling details are important – the first day WAS 24 hours long, for example, when we know that our calendar will in fact need to be changed in the future, revised as the Julian Calendar and Gregorian Calendar were re-evaluated – that detracts from the faith. the details and the need to be right become more important than the message. And again, we aren’t witnessing to treating others as we wish to be treated, but we fall prey to the deadly sins of pride and wrath.

And this still omits the physical possibilities, such as the guards fell asleep and someone stole the body; the man crucified wasn’t yet dead, but comatose, and revived once in the tomb… Even the off-the-wall theories of aliens and advanced science and magic…

There’s a strong possibility that things didn’t go down as written in the New American Bible, or the King James edition…

So it becomes important to keep an open mind, read the scriptures, learn the sense behind them, learn about the translations (such as the words for Love – there were three, and it makes a difference), learn about the politics and heresies, and why they were prosecuted/persecuted, what effects the wars had (War of the Roses, for instance; or the Catholics and Protestants of Ireland and England…), and to examine other religions and philosophies to understand how others think, and why they believe what they believe…

And then, to rely on the strength of faith when it all hits the fan anyway, and doing the right thing means personal discomfort, public ridcule, injury, or even death.

Witnessing to the faith the hard way. It’s not about details, it’s about what IS Right, what is True. And there are people who pay that price throughout history, as well as in the modern world.

Now, I need to argue a few points with you….

“THe New Testament a witness to Christ was wrote by men who either had seen Christ or were able to interview people who had seen him. ”

Sorry, note timeline presented above. Even if this was fully accurate (Saul/Paul never met Christ), it was not written, because only the educated could read or write – and education was costly in a time of subsistence farming and hard trade-work. Oral traditions are easy to maintain, but subject to minor embellishment and fuzzy memories. It would be nice to know the historical details. I’ll gladly go with the genius who builds a time machine…

“If anything they wrote had not been true the Jewish leaders of the time would have called them out to explain. They did not do this as much as they hated the thought of possible being wrong.”

Ummm…. Why? the Jewish people wanted to be free of Rome’s “oppression”. they wanted to rule the world, and some still believe the Jews intend to do so. (this is separate of the hatred of Israel – this is the conspiracy theorists.)
If you have a conflicting idea, and actively work to destroy it, you attract attention to it, and people will look at this ugly little secret, until suddenly, there are a LOT of followers to deal with.

Oh, and… The Jews DID persecute Christians, whom the Romans still thought of as a sect of Jews.
So if you have control of the popular mind, and don’t want tons of martyrs to a cause you’d rather forget about, you deal with the outspoken and confine the religion (ideas) to the shadows, hoping it will die out.

“No other religion can claim with witnesses to have done what Jesus Christ did. No other leader ever arose from the grave with witnesses to his death and his arise.”

Interesting, you bring up a valid point on miracles. But we don’t have the PROOF, we have a story. Isn’t the best story one where even a hero’s death doesn’t stop him? Ok, water into wine. We’ll start simple. No explanation, right? Maybe Jesus saw extra wine vats, and simply directed the servants to open them? Doesn’t make for much of a STORY, though, especially if you want to PROVE Jesus was the Messiah. So we “adjust” the details a little to get greater praise from the audience (translates to more food and drink for a bard…), and we have our “proof” of a miracle. Multiplication of loaves and fishes? Maybe everyone had a little, and they fed each other. Pockets were uncommon, but pouches were everywhere. People carried wineskins. A stretch? Of course, we’re “explaining” a miracle. but is the explanation impossible? No.
Do other religions have similar stories? To my knowledge, no. Good point to makle. Closest I know of is the Jewish tradition regarding Channukkah. the temple oil burned 9 days and nights, even though there was only enough for a day. Easy miracle. Good chance for the priests to gain some political power, too – feed the candle from stores of fat and wax and tallow, and quietly obtain thickeners to retard the burn rate. Does this mean Channukkah IS NOT a miracle? No, merely that there is a different set of possibilities that would make an uneducated person a staunch believer.

Last point: We have NO ONE who saw Christ RISE from the DEAD. NOT ONE. We have multiple people who saw him aftrerwards, yes. Not many of them recognized him. It took until the breakign of the bread… Another poor story, though. Rather, it was a follower, a wise one, who talked with the disciples on the road, and when he sat down with them for the meal, and broke bread, they felt a spiritual commitment to their teacher, Jesus – and were morally obliged to return and help their brothers and sisters. Think of it in these terms: They recognized the christ in their fellow traveller. They realized where they were needed, and what was needed, to do what was right. They decided to pay the cost, and return to face what came.

And several times, we have stories of death and rebirth. Enkidu in Gilgamesh, for example, dies to the “wild man” he is, when his hair is shorn and he bathes. The animals he grew up with reject him. He is forced to be reborn as a civilized man.
A parable of civilization, perhaps?

And there are martyrs for several faiths, so let’s not include that aspect…

“True much wrong has been done in the name of christian cause but it was done in name only not by those who truly live a christian life.”

Yeah, very true. The NAME is more important to people than the faith. It’s no different in Congress, the judiciary, etc. How amny cops do you know who have bad attitudes? GOING IN, not after dealing with the stupid laws they have to enforce, made by idiot politicians who are pandering to the “sheeple” for votes.

I saw an economic cartoon not too long ago, two men sitting on a city park bench. One turns to the other, who is reading the newspaper, and says “Boo.” The second man is then drawn behind the bench quivering, and the speaker’s thinking to himself, “I love being Alan Greenspan.”
What power, to make strong men quiver in anticipation of his announcements. Think he enjoyed it a little? Think maybe there are people who want MORE power to tell you what to do, how to do it, who you are, what you can be? Bush, clinton, Carter, Nixon, Johnson, even no-names like Chester A Arthur… These men liked being in positions of power. They liked being exempt from the things the “average joe” had to adhere to.
We are seeing it now, with Billary coming around again. If a Republican mentions he prays, he “Talks with God”, “communes with angels”, etc. When Hillary and Bill and Obama do it, they’re just pious members of the Democratic party.

And they’re willing to take every opportunity to remind you of it, too.

They want something from you. (So do the Republicans, but i’ll leave that off topic diatribe for another day.)

“The Lord’s prayer was said by Christ. why would he say his own name.”

Why not? He referred to himself as, “The Son of Man”. In response to Pilate’s questions, the response was, “It is you who say so.” (I’m guessing not literal, but…) And why not? “I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth. In Jesus Christ, His only son… The Holy spirit, who proceeds from the Father and the Son…” Me, Myself, and I are still at a loss of exactly how to explain this, although there are many triumvirate examples. Balisong knives (butterfly knife), flowers, flame – three parts of one whole. Like cutting a cake in three parts, equal or not, doesn’t matter – There’s piece A, Piece B, and Piece C. Together, they are “the cake”. Their nature is that they are Cake. But remove a piece, you have only PART of the cake. Ignore a part, you still ahve the whole cake, but can only address the other piece(s). So why not with God? How about Vishnu, called Krishna? The dismembered god Osiris? These tales and concepts have been around for ages. Each ascendant civilization picks them up, dusts them off, takes what is needed, and creates a mythology based on their immediate world-view.

Pentagram, anyone? An old CHRISTIAN symbol, etched into the back of Sir Gawain’s shield? The tenets of chivalry, maybe – where many of us still reside, because no MAN can create life? So we protect the womb…

Now, if you really wanted to ask a question, you’d wonder why, if, ‘ “You shall have no other Gods before me”– Deuteronomy 5:7 (NIV).’, AND, ‘ “…for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God…”–Exodus 20:21 (NIV).’, then – why do Christians pray to Mary for intercession? Or any other saint? Isn’t that praying to an idol? Placing someone BEFORE God?

How about we make it more challenging: Women wear pants routinely these days. They should be stoned, you know. Deuteronomy 22:5 states, “”The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.” (Deu 22:5 AV)”. How about men’s shirts, for that matte? Same law applies, right?

Yet there are reasons for a woman to wear pants these days. More practical, more expedient, nore utilitarian, doesn’t allow everyone to look up her dress. But are these women condemned to the lake of fire? For that matter, are WE NOT condemned to the lake of fire, for failing to correct her?

Man, we sound like our Taliban brothers already…

Lastly, you say, “The ten conmmandments were given to Moses before the time of Christ.”
True, but check in your New Testament again: “I am come not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it.” (Have to paraphrase here…) ‘The commandment says, The commandment says, thou shalt not commit adultery. But I say to you, if a man lusts after a woman in his heart, he has already comitted adultery with her.’ So – who can live up to that level of decency? Admittedly, it’s hard in our modern world, but – these scriptures were written in ancient times. Things have changed. BUT THE MESSAGE IS STILL TRUE.

That message is echoed across all cultures, and all religions, with the exceptions of Marxism, Socialism, and Communism, which are all variants of statism over individualism. Collectivism, really, where the state is the collective.

M point is, blind adherence to the faith, using the Bible (and only Version X) as the justifications for your arguments, and narrow wordlview, puts you seperate from the rest of us, even (especially) those who need to hear. And not everyone is willing to suspend disbelief to hear the end of the parable. These stories recorded in the Bible have a value, and must be though of as messages in right behaviour, but to simply demand blind obedience is against man’s nature, and best interests.

Of course, we could all convert to be Muslims, and then there’s no more problem, we all believe the same thing. Just ask any Sunni and Shiite, they’ll tell you.

Hope I haven’t bored too many people, this was LONG…

Hate to take the secular path on this, but most religions give people some sense of self, of a greater deisgn than they can show, of order in a chaotic universe. These religions offer moral statements about what brings a person closer to “god” (Generic sense), the eternal almighty.

To say “Jehovah” is THE ONLY GOD, end of discussion, shuts down those who believe any other religion – including Jews, Christians, Muslims, Wicks, Druids, neo-Norse, etc. You have indicated they cannot have any valid ideas or thoughts. However, we have to live with them. Unless you want us to convert them by the sword…
Let me suggest something:
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Closely follows Matthew 22:37)

It also makes those of us who were baptized Catholic debate the value(s) of what you are saying. While we may feel that our (name fo religion) neighbor is up the creek without a paddle, we generally think they have some good grasp of the tenets of right conduct, and don’t worry TOO much about their conversion. That’s a matter for God alone to deal with. (He may use us as tools, but the change comes from within them, not from our external pressure. As often witnessed by those who do convert – they convert because of our EXAMPLE, not our proselytizing.)

The thing I find intellectually most curious, however, is that IF Christ is the ONLY way to Truth and Light (Life), then – why do all these religions ascribe to subtle variations on what is the same code of conduct?

Why couldn’t God, in the form of Christ, come several times? He sent four messengers with the Gospel – one to the Jews, one to the Greeks (Gentiles), etc. Their stories agree with each other (after this long with re-writings and translations, that’s no surprise…), but they have different parables, different prasings, etc. And the same message.

Maybe Buddha was a Christ, too. That culture just honored the mind a bit differently, and wasn’t looking for a worldly savior to rise up and lead them to be masters of the earth…

Just a thought… Rabid adherence to Faith is a halmark of radicalism – like Muslim militants and extremists. And it turns off those who would be supportive of the messages, even if they wondered about the messenger.

The “lord’s prayer”, universally recited in Christian church, as well as the Ten Commandments; makes no mention of Jesus Christ, and yet we pray. An untold number of men have also been “crucified” for the sake of humanity (martyrdom) before Christ and after him. The uniqueness of Christ, is that God reminded us of his existence and showed the world there is his kingdom after this life, by resurrecting Christ and he teaching to us after his resurrection. No other person has had his body ascended from our earthly confines before or since. “He is the way” Christians believe. Whether he is the only way, is what polarizes the rest of humanity. The word attributed to Christ weren’t written by him, but by men 200 years after he died.

I hope you include in your label of “new age” beliefs the religion broadcast by the Daystar network – that of a quid-pro-quo relationship with Christ where he’ll bequeath earthly rewards upon a generous tithing to various “ministries” that do the “lords work”, analogous to “carbon credits”.