To approach this messy topic in an open forum might just be like jumping into quicksand, but the quagmire of divorce does exist and that sucking sound you think you hear might just be the sound of men’s money being pulled unceasingly from their pockets.
If it was just the money being taken away from men the issue could be defined in a narrower context, but it is not. Men’s own flesh and blood, their children, are all too often taken from them, some never, or rarely to be seen again.
Statistics vary, but by all indications, it is valid to say, “In the vast majority of divorces it is the biological Mother of the children who winds up with them.” Concomitant with custodial parenthood following a divorce goes child support (if your a woman). The federal government has created policies that incentavise the collection of child support at the state level, creating a system of local government agencies that profit the local government from the “harvesting” of Fathers’ assets. I did the best I could to verify this on the Internet, but alas I was only able to find documentation at The National Women’s Law Center, an organization wanting more incentives to harvest more money from more Fathers.
http://www.clasp.org/publications/012606_childsupportcuts.pdf
Oddly, I was unable to find a similar 501(c)(3) charity for Father’s or men. By all means, please post the link if someone finds it.
In the vast majority of divorces, the woman files for divorce, not the man. There are many reasons given as to why this is, but the fact remains, it is women who file for the vast majority of divorces.
http://www.pobronson.com/blog/2006/07/will-this-marriage-last-who-wants-out.html
“But comparing that data to survey responses of couples after their divorce, women were the ones who were saying that they wanted the divorce more than their husband wanted it.
How often was it that many more of women wanted the divorce more than the men?
2/3. The same as the amount responsible for divorce filings. And yet another study of divorced couples found that the majority of divorced wives and husbands both agreed it was the wife who wanted out.”
Divorce is a subject on which numerous books have been written so an Internet article will never suffice to cover all aspects of the topic. I was able to find significant statistics on divorce on this web site, and I’m sure the reader(s) will be able to find more.
Finding the exact number of divorces in America is an almost impossible task as not every state tallies those numbers. Below is a percentage estimation of divorces in America.
http://www.divorcereform.org/rates.html
“…states that keep track of the number of divorces. California, Colorado, Indiana and Louisiana do not.”
and,
“The National Center for Health Statistics recently released a report which found that 43 percent of first marriages end in separation or divorce within 15 years. The study is based on the National Survey of Family Growth, a nationally representative sample of women age 15 to 44 in 1995. Bramlett, Matthew and William Mosher. ”First marriage dissolution, divorce, and
remariage: United States,” Advance Data From Vital and Health Statistics; No.323. Hyattsville MD: National Center for Health Statistics: 2 1.“Data in the Census report were collected from both men and women, age 15 and over, and a different methodology was used than in the NCHS report.
“About 50% of first marriages for men under age 45 may end in
divorce, and between 44 and 52% of women’s first marriages
may end in divorce for these age groups.
As recently as just yesterday, I received a phone call on the answering machine from a friend of a man alleging that he had been arrested numerous times on false allegations of domestic violence. Each time the man was able to show his innocence to the police by corroborating his whereabouts with credible witness testimony, but I had to wonder how long before his luck runs out. Yes, as the caller said, “The police keep rewarding her by arresting him.”
As I have wondered before, in situations like this, “How many false police reports of a felony against him, before the police arrest her on a misdemeanor for filing false police reports?” It seems there is no limit.
If a state like California has no records of the number of divorces, do you think it has any records of the number of women filing false accusations of domestic violence?
As I have stated before in other articles there are over 50 women’s studies programs in California, and over 30 women’s commissions, all teaching and advocating for rights and privileges for women, but there are no men’s studies classes, or commissions for men anywhere. Additionally, there is no counterpart to the Office of Women’s health in Los Angeles County and there is no counterpart to the Office of Violence Against Women in Washington, D.C.
To say that America is a “Jim Crow” nation in the area of gender relations would be grossly understating the point, in my opinion. It’s much, much worse than that, in my opinion. Men are not only denied equality, they are denied the right to have separate accommodations of equal status. Just let “uppity” men try to have their own separate (men only) accommodations in the areas above and watch the lawsuits fly from gender feminist organizations - as they have in the past.
Given the above realities that exist in America today, I again ask the question that is the title of this article, “Is It Unwise for a man to Marry in Today’s Climate of Misandry?”
You will probably get a variety of answers from folks, depending on who you ask. Many secular Men’s Rights Activists will flat out say, “Yes, it’s very unwise for men to marry today,” and I would not disagree with them, given the perspective they are coming from.
It appears there are some in the religious community who still advocate for marriage, according to the formula laid out in Biblical text, and I do not contend with their right to practice their faith. Historically, religions like Christianity and Judaism set forth a number of rules and guidelines for marriage, and it is alleged that God will prosper a Christian, or Jewish, marriage in those respective faiths. Curiously, the rate of marriage failures is roughly the same in evangelical Christian communities as it is in the non-Christian world.
http://www.dbu.edu/jeanhumphreys/SocialPsych/evangelicalmind.htm
In a 1999 national survey, George Barna found that the percentage of born-again Christians who had experienced divorce was slightly higher (26 percent) than that of non-Christians (22 percent).7 In Barna’s polls since the mid-1990s, that number has remained about the same.8 In August 2001, a new poll found that the divorce rate was about the same for born-again Christians and the population as a whole; 33 percent of all born-again Christians had been divorced compared with 34 percent of non-born-again Americans—a statistically insignificant difference. Barna also found in one study that 90 percent of all divorced born-again folk divorced after they accepted Christ.9
It appears the Jewish faith has been severely impacted by America’s divorce plague as well.
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/history_community/Jewish_World_Today/JewishFamily.htm
Jewish marriages are no more immune from divorce than any other group in North America, in which one of every two marriages dissolves.
Christian churches, especially those following the Calvinist tradition, in my experience, have been quick to point out that the man is the leader of the household so if a marriage fails, the leadership of the man is suspect. Never mind that the legal system of “the world” is specifically targeting the leadership role of the man of the family (Patriarch) for vilification and persecution under today’s Violence Against Women Act. Never mind that the courts view such a husband as a “power and control” abuser in a court of law. And never mind that a number of Churches don’t want to involve themselves with American government, or corrupt laws like the Violence Against Women Act - except to support it.
In Jesus time, Jesus was very upset with the legalistic attitudes of Pharisaical leaders and the legalistic and financial encumbrances they put in the way of the valid spiritual needs of the community. Jesus was outraged that Pharisaical leaders contemptuously treated the valid spiritual needs of the people with exploitive disrespect. How much different are a number of today’s Church leaders from Pharisees, when they blame men for lacking leadership in families, then expect them to tithe from their purses (pilfered by government), then openly support the Violence against Women Act that undermines the leadership of men in their families? How much different are a number of today’s legalistic, Church leaders from Pharisees, when they blame men for their lack of family leadership, then do not confront the evil legal system that works to destroy all vestiges of a man’s leadership position in the family, not to mention stealing his children and money in the process.
#1 In my opinion, a number of leaders of Churches (and Synagogues) in America need to first remove the logs from their own eyes, admit the abuses, yes abuses (sins), they have helped heap on good men for years through their overt negligence, overt ignorance, and overt irresponsibility, in confronting anti-family gender feminist laws and policies.
#2 In my opinion, a number of leaders of Churches in America need especially to confront the evils of government following the example of our Founding Fathers, most of whom were Christians. This is America, not Caesar’s dictatorial Rome. When being tested by legalistic Pharisees/Herodians/spies who asked Jesus if it was lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, Jesus held up a coin and asked one of the leaders whose image was on the coin. The answer was, “Caesar’s.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Render_unto_Caesar…
The emporer at the time Pontius Pilate was Procurater of Judea was Tiberius, although an older coin might have portrayed the image of Augustus.
Tiberius Caesar Augustus
When Jesus held up a coin containing the image of “Caesar,” and said, “Render unto Caesar, the things which are Caesar‘s…” he was basically saying to obey the rules of government in the realm of government. In this representative form of government it is “We the people” who are the ultimate rulers of America. In my opinion, a number of Churches have not been following God’s command to “Render unto Caesar…” and do their duty as outlined by our Founding Fathers who, again, set up this form of government. A number of Church leaders need to get off their posteriors and confront this government according to God’s command to “Render unto Caesar (government)…” in my opinion.
We already have a representative form of government in place so I’m not asking for nearly the sacrifice that this Christian leader (Reverend Peter Muhlenberg) gave to the establishment of America. Today’s Church (and Synagogue) leaders need only use the peaceable means of government already in place, to confront and change the evil’s that spawned the current war against America’s Fathers and men - if they would but do that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Muhlenberg
Toward the end of 1775, Muhlenberg was authorized to raise and command as its Colonel the 8th Virginia Regiment of the Continental Army. After Washington personally asked him to accept this task, he agreed.
Given the sorry state of affairs we find ourselves in today in family relations, as a nation of gender feminist laws, it is my opinion that it is extremely unwise for any man to marry.
Given the sorry state of affairs we find ourselves in today in family relations in a number of Churches and Synagogues across America, it is my opinion it is extremely unwise for any man to marry.
Ultimately, the decision to marry (and accept the high risk of a divorce), or not, is up to each and every adult considering entering that institution.
All that being said, the Christian and Jewish religions do proclaim that the institution of marriage is a holy institution created by God, and that men and women were created in the image of God. I recall some Christian theologians explaining that God intended men and women in Christian marriages to be the compliment of each other. How far indeed we have fallen from the Garden of Eden. I pray that this would cease to be the case, and I work against the evil government of America, that works for more money to further divide the heterosexual family so the “nanny state” can use its village to take, and raise, the children that should have both a Mommy and a Daddy, equally, in their lives.
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mruffolo said,
This may be good enough to email as a link to many single male friends for recruiting purposes.
August 11, 2007 at 3:19 pm
conservativation said,
Are we all afraid to at least hold those 2/3 a little bit responsible?
August 11, 2007 at 3:47 pm
Ray Blumhorst said,
It appears so. I don’t see very many Church leaders, if any, holding women accountable for their actions in marriage, or the Church, to the degree they hold men accountable. Does that carry over to the legal arena in “the world.” From the case of Mary Winkler, who slew her Pastor husband, it appears so.
The Bible refers to women in the New Testament as the “weaker vessel.” Check various study Bibles from different denominational backgrounds for varying definitions of that “hot button” term. I’ve heard that one explained in a number of ways from, “Men need to be sensitive to women,” to “There not really weaker in any way, just different and deserving of ‘considerations’ from the men who are the leaders (Patriarchy). Hmmm. Does that all sound a little like the chivalrous pampering attitudes we constantly encounter from groups on the right side of the political spectrum? Hmmm.
At the opening of the article I described the discussion of divorce as a quagmire. IMO, the discussion of Christian religious concepts, or religious concepts in general, is a minefield. Any interpretation invariably invites a counter interpretation from any of the people in the approximately 1600 Christian denominations (worldwide), or other people. When something is strictly taken on “faith” it appears people tend to vary a great deal in what they specifically believe, but protection of women and children over men (in Christian churches) does seem to be a pretty universially accepted practice in my experience.
August 11, 2007 at 4:07 pm
Denis said,
nice read.
Is it unwise for a man to marry in this climate of misandry?
Yes.
I’ll extend what is also unwise in this climate of misandry:
Being a man living in America.
My prediction: The next President of the United States will be a misandrist Marxist.
Hillary Rodham Clinton.
The next election is going to see a HUGE shift in historical voting patterns-and more importantly a HUGE shift in voter turnout.
The Republican’s are gonna get clobbered.
Females under the age of 30 represent a huge demographic. The are more educated and in many cases better off economically then males under 30. They historically vote in very low numbers. Not this time. They are gonna vote in HUGE numbers. Blacks also a low turnout group and Hispanics also a low turnout group, will vote in large numbers for HRC (and her VP pick-Obama). Many girly men will vote for HRC. All gays and lesbians will vote for HRC. HRC is not even bothering to try and get the heterosexual white male vote-married or otherwise. She does not need them. And she won’t be THEIR President when elected. Even a fair number of Republican’s will vote fore HRC, at least the ones who don’t stay home on Election Day. Her lead will more than offset-far more than offset- a potential Ralph Nader entry into the race. My prediction.
A misandrist Marxist in the Presidential office is bad news for men and boys. Really bad news. Reforming marriage to reassert man’s place in society at this late date in history is pissing in the wind.
Only a complete social collapse of America offers any hope for men.
And THAT will come after a HRC Presidency. Perhaps as long as two generations after. Perhaps sooner.
So my unsolicated recommendation is this: get used to living in a country that will make the last 30 years for men look like a walk in the park. Or find another country to live in.
August 11, 2007 at 5:56 pm
Gus said,
For years girls have been covertly educated by their mothers (and still are) about men, relationships and marriage. They have been taught verbally and probably more potently non-verbally how to manipulate men and control relationships.
Fathers have taught their sons about baseball and fishing.
That has to change. I have had one nephew who is like a son go through a divorce because he married the stereotypical “angry young woman.”
Luckily there were no children but divorrce regardless of what anyone says leaves a scar. It is the duty of older men to do our home work and pass it on to our sons and grand-sons.
Some basic truths:
1. Men have rights in relationships. The first and foremost one is to be respected. When this is violated, no matter how “hot” the chick is, dump her.
2. A woman will give a man as much shit as he will put up with. We have no duty to put up with it. When the shit-meter starts blinking red, throw her over the side.
3. “All women are devious”. A woman law professor at a state university wrote that to me. I have a tremendous amount of respect for her honesty. Women are devious. That means they cannot be trusted. Anyone who comes up with the canard, “Hey! That’s not true of all women”, had better take a closer look at thewomen he thinks are so truthful.
4. Women love powerful men because their greatest need is for security.
therefore if you have money and power, watch out. You’ll have a lot of women all right, none of whom will give a hoot in hell for you but a lot about what your bank book looks like.
5. Chivalry is dead and died a long time ago.
There are more but that’s a start.
I’d like to hear what some of you other guys have learned the hard way.
August 11, 2007 at 6:00 pm
Denis said,
good seeing you back!
“All women are devious”.
Yup.
“A woman will give a man as much shit as he will put up with.”
Yup. Which is why I think it is absurd that many MRAs are expecting the women to (help) turn things around for men. They won’t. Not in significant numbers anyways. Some men are responsible for the wholesale turnover of economic and political power to women generally, and wives and mothers more specifically. It has resulted in a matriarchy fully in place. This has resulted in a society that is experiencing more chaos and disorder. Individuals see and experience a greater chaos and disorder in their own lives. Feminism and the mass of women who were their useful idiots brought this. Now they are getting ready to elect one of their own as the U.S. President.
I’m veering off topic so I’ll quit here.
August 11, 2007 at 6:23 pm
donnieboy57 said,
August 11, 2007 at 7:49 pm
amfortas said,
It isn’t just an American phenomenon or down to an ‘evil’ American Government. Don’t be suckered into thinking that. It is affecting the whole Anglophile civilisation, and as that is pretty well the foremost civilisation today, the foremost of all history, it is spreading like wildfire. The ‘evil’ in the world is not simply Governmental. It is a trend worldwide. A scourge that is reducing humanity’s prospects for continuance. The Pricess of Lies. It is an anti-human drive. Thanatos.
There are those that still fight for the Institution of Marriage, like David Usher. A good and worthy fight. I doubt there are many real MRAs who do not quietly hope that his efforts have a positive effect and marriage is revived. There are many who support that thrust. But individually many of us carry scars and weeping wounds that are personally persuasive, whatever our public cognisance. Ray, your voice is in that vast and crowded camp.
Is it wise to marry in today’s climate, you ask. This is the time of climate change. The climate of the heart. On the one hand our hearts are ages old and used to a path of attachment and devotion. But the pain that the heart is asked to bear is getting too much. The very person that we love (loved) is the cause of that pain. We have wisely reserved our trust after a personal battering. Some of us have lost trust - and faith along with it - altogether.
We see all around us the antecedents to that battering in the general attitude of women and society toward men. We are villified for sport, humour, commercial sales, daily. Our children see us ’sucking it up’ and despise us for our loss of dignity. The Churches, that you reserve special mention for, as supposed guardians and educators of the Institution of Marriage has clearly failed us. So have women.
Clearly one has to be a fool to marry. Wise doesn’t get a look in. Hormones are the dominant drivers. The young still listen to loins. But even they are not blind. They see the damage all around. They are increasingly disillusioned. Anger the dominant emotion, Disappointment the dominant experience. Heart-break is worse than coronary failure. One has to continue living with heart-break. Hail the fools who persist.
Women say, (it used to be in humour) that a good man is hard to find. Can one find a good woman anymore. Can one trust the ‘Good Woman’? There are several who contribute to MND, and have done over the years. They wilt under the onslaught of men’s agony and blame. Every woman was considered a ‘good woman’ at some point by some man. She let him down, dispossessed him, took his children, rubbished his reputation, set thugs upon him, drove him to penury and sometimes death. Why does she deserve trust? She has let her sistas set the pace without objection - or strong enough objection - and reaps the whirlwind. And we encourage them to speak out, in the hope not just for them to continue to be a ‘good woman’ and not betray her man, steal his life, but that she might help persuade her sistas, change society for the better and repair the worst.
For what? Well, I hazard, so that Marriage is again restored to health. For our sons. For our daughters. We want for them the safety of a happy cooperative marriage that was taken from us. We want for them a wound-free world of the heart.
The wounds of heart-break for some do not heal.
Hear me. I am Amfortas, the ever-wounded King. I am a man. I host the Holy Grail, the Cornucopia. It can feed the world. I am now a man enclosed in his pain in a Castle drear. I look for a young Knight that can relieve me of my burden and let me die in peace so that the land may be resored. But like young Parzival, too many of the young fail to ask the right question. They will likely marry and be destroyed by it.
Even hope is diminishing like a spluttering candle.
August 11, 2007 at 8:05 pm
daveinga said,
What is that definition of stupidity? Doing something over and over and expecting a different outcome?
On the bright side - more future MRA’s in the making.
August 11, 2007 at 9:25 pm
DadWith2Girls said,
It is indeed a Gender War. Sleep with your enemy at your peril….
That does not necessarily mean giving up sex.
Pay for it just like buying a shirt you like or a nice week-end vacation.
Women have defined themselves as commodities.
Only men continue to idealise women as something more romantic than what they actually are — vaginas-for-lease.
Sad.
True?
August 11, 2007 at 10:51 pm
Ed said,
If I may ask, how many of the regular contributors are married? I’m single, single for the third time actually after two failed marriages. Gonna stay that way this time. What DO you tell your kids about getting married? I have a daughter and would like to think that, as I am the one who is raising her - NOT the pyschotic evil serial murderer eyed mother that she will not have a much different opinion of men then many of her peers. Is that a possibility in this stupid society? Or, has Clinton and her (it’s) ilk so basdardized us into a female culture w/o the ability to thinK? Most of you are right, she will win. But for the wrong reason. She’ll win because she’s a female or at least we’re told she is. The very additude these woman scream about “yo men only hate Katy Couric because she’s female” they’ll elect a president with, “because she’s a woman”.
As an aside I’ve thought for many years that the closing of the whore houses (legal prostitution) was the actual first step in the female rise to power. Done as an act to strenghten families and fronted by the church it was in my opinion their first power grab. Limit the market, tell men sex is a commidy regulated by the female order and fronted by male police officers (and a few female cops pretending to be whores) and make us all bow to their whims (remember the old hair dye commercial “we’re worth it”). Only problem is, they’re not. Not unless they actually like their husband/boyfriend/whatever. And after reading these many articles at least 2/3’s don’t.
Never did visit a prostitute and now with AIDS and other sexually transmittable diseases making that trip is not about to happen but I do wonder that back “when” a guy could get out of the house after a nasty fight with the old lady and at least have sex. Of course that led to the next power grab which was divorce with the mother taking the guy for everything including his children. Only problem there is most women are incapable of raising children to become responsible citizens. All they teach is everyone is a victim.
Maybe Dw2G is right, but like him I have a daughter I worry about every day.
August 12, 2007 at 5:40 am
Justaguy said,
I absolutely love the essence of women. The way they talk, walk and feel. But, like most men who visit this site, I will never marry again. The power that women lord over men, IN MARRIAGE, is just too great. When dating I remain on equal footing. It is only after you sign on the dotted line that you are relegated to second class status.
August 12, 2007 at 6:34 am
donnieboy57 said,
one more thing. the toughest thing for me now is to treat all the women i work with in a civil manner ( 37 out of 42 are female including the owner! ) i try very hard and for the most part, keep myself out of trouble, but i tell ya, it ain’t easy. does anyone else out there have that type of challenge?
August 12, 2007 at 7:24 am
amfortas said,
I agree with most everything you said, Ed, bar that. I live in a country that has progressively legalised prostitution. The other way around from your experience. But the Feminazisation of Oz society is as bad as yours. So the prostitution issue is not relevant,
Where it is a relevant issue, legal or illegal, is in the continuance of the very idea that men must pay a woman, one way or another, when they have sex together. It is not only a loss of money to the men, when both parties are having the sexual experience, but the loss of his dignity and integrity too. It is a huge cost to men. She ‘wins’ every which way.
Prostitutes benefit from a huge excuse provision by men. ‘Market Forces’; ‘its always been that way’; thinking with loins instead of brains; ‘men want sex more than women do’; the presence of alternative supply moderates wife behaviour. We hear them all. All sophistry. The reality is that prostitutes are feminazi shock troops. They are the overt thieves, living off men diectly with absolutely no thought for him as a person, as compared to the covert mass of women who get their dates paid and a home provided with false promises of ‘Love’.
Men are moving toward a marriage strike. But what we want is equality of adulthood without any ‘taking’ from men that is not similarly recipricated. A marriage strike is wise for men’s protection but insufficient to win the war against feminazis. To get women to change, what we do has to COST women.
The very easiest, personal thing any man who calls himself an MRA can do is require women to pay him for their sexual pleasures. Make it very clear that equality means she has to make up for generations of rip-off. This may sound hard and uncompromisng, and its is. We are at war here. Paying women in any form for sexual experience that she has with you is aiding and abetting the enemy.
To get women to change their attitude and behaviour they have to pay the monetary price as men have done, and lose their dignity and integrity as they have demanded of men. It will hurt them. Cost them. As Marc Rudov is continually saying, women want sex. Make them pay for it. Tell them as they tell you, ‘No pay, no play’. “Buy me dinner and pay the taxi or no sex for you, M’dear’.
I can tell you, its easier as one gets older. Practice.
August 12, 2007 at 7:49 am
conservativation said,
The matter of sex is demonstrative, and visceral. Its good as an example because it is an area where I submit, even the self proclaimed “good women” , the “Im not like that” gals, in this arena I assure you most occasionally flex the (keegle?) muscle in the home. Out of the “good” women, I also submit as they claim to “provide” (even that word says something) sex to hubby as he wants, I suggest that she basis this on her perception on his wants, and his overt wants have been tempered by years of subtle rejection leading to her meeting his guarded needs, not the real ones. Almost all are feminist in this arena, some unaware.
August 12, 2007 at 8:05 am
college activist said,
“KNOWLEDGE IS POWER”
http://www.mattweeks.com/strike.htm
August 12, 2007 at 8:06 am
mruffolo said,
Do not spend your strength on women, on those that have ruined many men.
Do not lust as it will harm your spirit and mess with your head. Even looking is danerous. Can a drunk manage just sitting in a bar?
Mostly ignoring women will keep a man from trouble all his life.
Stay single, but if you need a helper, then choose a traditional non-American with the marriage ceremony out of westernized countries.
Feminism means trouble for men. Better to be alone in peace, than married with complaining and the threat.
August 12, 2007 at 9:29 am
Gus said,
You are right and “a vagina for lease” is a very accurate description of American women today. As a slightly, but only slightly over-the-top commentI see it in the young girls and women in my extended family. They know who has the power and I see them turn into bitches as soon as they hit puberty. Pardon my language but if I want to be accurate, those are the words I have to use.
The absolute pits occurred when the daughter of an old friend, who unfortunately died of alcoholism, called me “a fool”. I remember her when she was 3 years old. She fancies herself a writer. Since my attiutude of gallantry, chivalry and tolerance of female abuse has changed, I dropped her a card saying that despite he obvious lack of talent, a good deal of hard work could raise her writing to an almost acceptable level. Naturally I signed it, “Love, Gus”.
My doing that 10 years ago would have been unthinkable for me but enough is enough.
If you lead with you chin, someone is going to whack it.
Howard Thurman, a great an very profound black preacher of the last pasrt of the 20th century said that a man has to decide where he wants to go and then decide who he wants to take with him. If he reverses those two priorities, he’s in for trouble.
American men have to be liberated from the belief that they have to be chivalrous to women and make them happy. (As I wrote that, the wonderful Kay’s Jewelry Christmas commercial popped into my head. The man has just given the woman “a rock” and she moans, “I love this man! I love this man!” It’s probably the only time she has said it outside of Valentine’s Day, her birthday [ the holy of holies] and their anniversary)
Instead American men have to realize that sex and therefore women are not the most imortant things in their lives and poreceed accordingly.
What a profound tragedy this is when you raed about the possibilities of marriage such as the one between “Cokey” and Steve Roberts.
August 12, 2007 at 11:07 am
anti armchair generals said,
Thanks for having the courage to write a well written article that many would find taboo and aginst vaious faiths dicta of sex outdside marriage.
But what are the choices for men? Even if you are falsely charged with paternity for having sex with single girl, it does not entangle as many legal issues as marriage.
I was stunned by your report that divorce rate among born again Christians was higher than others. I had thoough their faith would sustain them.
Also, although many activist are for separation of church and state, in orthdox Jewish faith the husband has to agree to a religious “get” before the wife can remarry in her faith even after a a civil divorce. The community has tried to ostracize the husban and ban him from attending religious activities to pressure him to to grant a get. Our state legislature has tried to pass legislation that would require a Jewish man to grant a “get” as a part of civli divorce. So far it has stalled in legislature on constitutional grounds. Again, thanks for writing catch 22 for men
August 12, 2007 at 11:20 am
Bart said,
August 12, 2007 at 12:49 pm
mirwalk said,
This site is full of guys who will tell you what a bad idea it is to get married in today’s suicidal marriage climate. For the best stuff you will need to register and go to the private boards.
August 12, 2007 at 1:04 pm
anti armchair generals said,
While civil divorce is relatively easy to obtain, Roman Catholic Church requires annulment by the Church authority.
Jewish “get” is not well understood by gentiles. Here is a link to one article on the Internet that explains the reasoning and procedure.
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/75/story_7563_1.html
August 12, 2007 at 7:13 pm
cybro said,
I got a call the other day from a chick that I haven’t spoken to in about 9 months. It was her birthday she announced again and again and again. She must have repeated that at least 20 times. So I was supposed to drop everything I was doing and bring her royal majesty to the airport so she could honor Vegas with her presense on her birthday. The magic day when the entire universe spins around this one person.
Mind you this chick did zero for me in the past 9 months but that did not slow her down. The attitude was it’s my birthday therefore you obey my orders. Truly amazing arrogance. Of course I blew her off.
It reminded me why I ditched her to begin with. Only it seems like she has gotten worse. It’s a trend that I am starting to notice with females.
It’s like the older and more useless they are the higher the opinion they have of themselves. Once they are past 30 that’s it. Expiration date is up. Nobody wants them like they did when they were 20.
How is it that they don’t get that? How is it that they go even further to think that they are worth more as they get older?
Add chicks are insane to your list of reasons not to get married.
August 12, 2007 at 9:03 pm
donnieboy57 said,
August 13, 2007 at 6:06 am
conservativation said,
It is amazing the dynamic that develops in most marriages. Ive pointed out the sweaty pasty guy in airports with toddlers hanging off him and wife pointing and “suggesting” they go over here, no, over there, no, just keep them quiet honey while I……
When men go an do something they enjoy, many times it carries one or all of the following reactions:
1. She sweetly tells him how glad she is that he got to enjoy a few hours. But this is among her delineating exactly how his schedule should be daily, how she allocates his family times according to her perception of what is “right”
2. There is an initial reaction of anger at his plans.
3. After the golf or whatever an inquisition about if there were any hot gals where he was and if he spoke to them.
4. The event comes back later in the form of rationale for something she wants to do or buy.
Ive said before, how often do you hear men telling each other they must ask the boss? And how often is that discussed between women? Strangely they will discuss it, but they KNOW they will get their way.
If you have a decent marriage I still think its a great thing, but so many toil away a life as you describe. It is truly sad enough to bring tears.
August 13, 2007 at 6:39 am
mcd106 said,
August 13, 2007 at 10:13 am
Ed said,
August 13, 2007 at 12:13 pm
Ed said,
August 13, 2007 at 12:18 pm
daveling said,
I’m divorced, share custody of my daughter with her mother. I teach relationship classes (insert your joke here- it’s not going to be new). I also have worked with men trying to be better fathers.
At the risk if injecting some reason into this blog, let me throw in a different perspective- the truth.
You ask the question “Is it unwise for men to get married today?” the answer is maybe. Some other questions that you need to answer first. Are you the right person to get married? Is it unwise to marry the wrong woman? Are you marrying for the right reasons? Is this all just about sex? Do you have realistic expectations of what it means to be married?
But when things crash and burn it’s a lot easier for us to blame someone else (i.e. the ex). It’s a whole other matter when you have to answer to the mirror.
There were things in my marriage that I didn’t do right. There were things she didn’t do right.
Remember when you were 16 and you had to take driver’s education before you could get a license?
How many of you took a marriage education course before you got married? I’ll wait.
Thought so.
Look, the truth is that most of don’t have a clue how to make a marriage work, men or women. We have parents as role models, but all too often they may not have been the best guide. Or we have Ward and June Cleaver, who had a script to follow. We don’t know how to “do married” and there are fewer constraints keeping people married- i.e. women in the work force, domestic violence protection, etc.
Once upon a time, if a woman got divorced, she went hungry, or had to sell herself. (BTW, Ed, I am truly bewildered that you think the first “power grab” was that people decided that maybe women could do something more than sex work to make a living). And another thing- if you can’t get along with 37 people, Ed, have you ever thought that maybe you’re the problem? Just a thought…..
As far as getting screwed in divorce settlements, you are absolutely right that men tend to get screwed. The precedent was set when men didn’t raise children and women couldn’t work. It’s still way skewed, and that needs to change.
There are agencies etc that work for fathers and fathers’ rights. – Texas Fathers For Equal Rights, the National Fatherhood Coalition, Strong Fathers, and more. Yes there are more for women, especially the violence against women types, but look at the numbers- most women are the victims of domestic violence, not men (about 90-95%)
Look, I could go one for a long, long time - “prostitutes are feminazi shock troops” – Holy Sh*t! .
I’m not saying that women are saints and men are sh*ts. I’m sure that the individual women talked about on this blog were, uhm, not nice. But lumping them all into some evil empire designed to emasculate men, that’s a little far.
Someone mentioned accountability. Best word used on this blog. Accountability goes both ways. It means being accountable for your own actions. It means being accountable for knowing what you need to know as a man, as a husband, and as a father. It means being accountable for our own mistakes and not blaming them on women, or other people in general.
Go ahead, flame me, I can take it.
August 13, 2007 at 12:58 pm
Denis said,
“Thought so.”
You can hear voices?
Actually, at least for me (and others here) the issue is less about behavior and more about rights. Who has them and who doesn’t. She can call 911 over nothing whatsoever and have you arrested. Maybe after several years marriage isn’t what she wants anymore. Maybe it got boring with the routines of daily living. Maybe her expectations where too high to begin with after years of listening to Oprah. She can claim domestic abuse without proof and put the man in financial bondage. She can take full ownership of the kids, the house, etc. The Family Courts are against men and fathers. Women’s groups fight shared parenting legislation. There is much more that can be said. Much has already been said over the years at MND. Every now and then there are women and men who then lecture men-again and again it’s “their fault”. Again and again “they are not taking responsibility”. Again and again “they blame someone else”. Again and again the real issues are invisible. Again and again.
August 13, 2007 at 1:44 pm
Ray Blumhorst said,
I disagree with much of the blaming of men you’re doing, inferring most men here need to look primarily at their own malfeasance, but your domestic violence claim is so blatantly off the mark it needs solid refuting.
As to your first error, I suggest you sit in on college/university women’s studies classes, in any of the over 700 programs across America, then come back and tell us that you think there aren’t a whole lot of really dangerously unscrupulous, male exploitive women running amok in American society.
As to your second error, please consider what’s posted below.
http://www.ncfmla.org/dv_data.html
Battered Men Statistics
“Domestic violence is a human problem, not a gender problem.”
- Dear Abby
“In the United States every year, about 1.5 million women and more than 800,000 men are raped or physically assaulted by an intimate partner.”
Centers for Disease Control
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/ipvfacts.htm
“This bibliography examines 196 scholarly investigations: 153 empirical studies and 43 reviews and/or analyses, which demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners. The aggregate sample size in the reviewed studies exceeds 177,100.”
http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
University of New Hampshire 32-nation study: women initiate dating violence as often as men and controlling behavior is found equally in perpetrators of both sexes.
http://www.unh.edu/news/cj_nr/2006/may/em_060519male.cfm?type=n
http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/ID41E2.pdf
University of Florida study: women more likely to stalk, attack and abuse. http://news.ufl.edu/2006/07/13/women-attackers/
“Contrary to the claim that women only hit in self-defense, we found that women were as likely to initiate the violence as were men. In order to correct for a possible bias in reporting, we reexamined our data looking only at the self-reports of women. The women reported similar rates of female-to-male violence compared to male-to-female, and women also reported they were as likely to initiate the violence as were men.”
Professor Richard Gelles, “The Hidden Side of Domestic Violence; Male Victims,” 1999, The Women’s Quarterly, http://www.ncfmla.org/gelles.html
Canadian government report on male victims
http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/ncfv-cnivf/familyviolence/pdfs/Intimate_Partner.pdf
American Psychological Association recognition of the data on male victims:
http://www.apa.org/monitor/oct06/pc.html
“Over the past 25 years, leading sociologists have repeatedly found that men and women commit domestic violence at similar rates. The 1977 assertion that ‘the phenomena of husband battering’ is as prevalent as wife abuse is confirmed by nationally representative studies, such as the Family Violence Surveys, as well as by numerous other sources. However, despite the wealth and diversity of the sociological research and the consistency of the findings, female violence is not recognized within the extensive legal literature on domestic violence.”
Prof. Linda Kelly, “Disabusing the Definition of Domestic Abuse; How Women Batter Men and the Role of the Feminist State,” 30 Fl. St. Law Review 791 (2003)
http://www.law.fsu.edu/journals/lawreview/downloads/304/kelly.pdf
Dutton, D., & Corvo, K., “Transforming a flawed policy: A call to revive psychology and science in domestic violence research and practice,” (11) 2006, 457-483 http://www.nfvlrc.org/docs/DuttonCorvo.policypaper.pdf
Archer, J., “Sex differences in aggression between heterosexual partners: A meta-analytic review,” Aggression and Violent Behavior (7) 2002, 313-351
http://www.maennerbuero-trier.de/Archer_2002.pdf
National Family Violence Legislative Resource Center, a global coalition of peer-reviewed domestic violence experts supporting research-based, inclusive approach to domestic violence and providing solid data showing women initiate the violence as often as men. http://www.nfvlrc.org/
David Fontes, Ph.D., “Violent Touch; Breaking Through The Stereotype,” 4/15/03 (by the Employee Assistance Manager for California Department of Health and Human Services. http://www.safe4all.org/essays/vtbreak.pdf
CRIME DATA
The most recent crime data shows about 25% of people who call police for help as domestic violence victims are men. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/press/fvspr.htm
Crime data is either based on crime reports or crime-oriented surveys by the Department of Justice. Experts point out that men underreport more than women do in crime data, whereas sociological (behavior-based) data is more accurate. (See Gelles, Dutton, Archer above).
There is a middle figure. The Centers for Disease Control data above cites a 36% figure based on the Violence Against Women Survey which was co-sponsored by Department of Justice (a crime agency) and Centers for Disease Control (non-crime agency) and therefore was partly crime-based, partly sociological. The study is at http://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles1/nij/181867.txt. Professor Richard Gelles explains this in his article at http://www.ncfmla.org/gelles.html
INJURY
A “substantial minority” (38%) of physically- injured victims are men. John Archer, Ph.D., “Sex differences in aggression between heterosexual partners: A meta-analytic review,” Psychological Bulletin (2000), 126, 651-680.
A University of Pennsylvania emergency room report found 13% of men reported being assaulted by a female partner in the previous 12 months, about half of whom were choked, kicked, bitten, punched, or had an object thrown at them, and 37% involved a weapon, 14% required medical attention, 6% sought counseling, and they were disproportionately African-American men with no health insurance. http://www.aemj.org/cgi/content/abstract/6/8/786
Injuries are only a small part of the damage caused by domestic violence. There is also the injury to children who witness it and are psychologically damaged no matter how severe it is. Studies show children who witness their parents hit each other, regardless of their gender, are more likely to commit domestic violence or child abuse in the future. One study found the likelihood a woman will abuse her child increases each time she witnesses her mother hit her father. (Heyman, Richard and Slep, Amy Smith, “Do Child Abuse and Interparental Violence Lead to Adulthood Family Violence?” (Nov. 2003) J. or Marriage & the Family, v. 64, issue 4, pp. 864-70.
THE SELF-DEFENSE MYTH
“Contrary to the claim that women only hit in self-defense, we found that women were as likely to initiate the violence as were men. In order to correct for a possible bias in reporting, we reexamined our data looking only at the self-reports of women. The women reported similar rates of female-to-male violence compared to male-to-female, and women also reported they were as likely to initiate the violence as were men.”
Richard Gelles, Ph.D, “The Hidden Side of Domestic Violence; Male Victims,” 1999, The Women’s Quarterly.
http://www.ncfmla.org/gelles.html
“It has often been claimed that the reason CTS studies have found as many women as men to be physically aggressive is because women are defending themselves against attack. A number of studies have addressed this issue and found that when asked, more women than men report initiating the attack. (Bland & Orn. 1986; DeMaris, 1992; Gryl & Bird. 1989. cited in Straus. 1997) or that the proportions are equivalent in the two sexes (Straus, 1997). Two large-scale studies found that a substantial proportion of both women and men report using physical aggression when the partner did not (Brush, 1990; Straus & Gelles, 1988). This evidence does not support the view that the CTS is only measuring women’s self-defense.”
John Archer, Ph.D., “Sex Differences in Aggression Between Heterosexual Partners: A Meta-Analytic Review, Psychological Bulletin,” Sept. 2000. v. 126, n. 5, p. 651, 664.
California State University surveyed 1,000 college women: 30% admitted they assaulted a male partner. Their most common reasons: (1) my partner wasn’t listening to me; (2) my partner wasn’t being sensitive to my needs; and (3) I wished to gain my partner’s attention. Martin Fiebert, Ph.D., Denise Gonzalez, Ph.D., “Why Women Assault; College Women Who Initiate Assaults on their Male Partners and the Reasons Offered for Such Behavior,” 1997, Psychological Reports, 80, 583-590, http://www.batteredmen.com/fiebertg.htm.
A major study of domestic violence that asked about motives found men and women assault their partners at the same rates and for the same reasons, most often “to get through to them,” while self-defense was one of the least common motives for both sexes. Carrado, “Aggression in British Heterosexual Relationships: A Descriptive Analysis, Aggressive Behavior,” 1996, 22: 401-415.
The 32-nation study of domestic violence by the University of New Hampshire in 2006 further refutes the self-defense myth. http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/ID41E2.pdf
Professor Don Dutton refutes the self-defense myth. Dutton, D., & Corvo, K., “Transforming a flawed policy: A call to revive psychology and science in domestic violence research and practice,” (11) 2006, 457-483 http://www.nfvlrc.org/docs/DuttonCorvo.policypaper.pdf
Sarantakos, S. (2004), “Deconstructing self-defense in wife-to-husband violence,” Journal of Men’s Studies, 12 (3) 277-296. Members of 68 families with violent wives in Australia were studied. In 78% of cases wives’ violence was moderate to severe, and in 38% of cases husbands needed medical attention. Using information from husbands, wives, children and wives’ mothers, the study provides compelling data challenging self defense as a motive for female-to-male violence.
Sommer, Reena (1994), “Male and female partner abuse: Testing a diathesis-stress model,” unpublished doctoral dissertation, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada. The study was in two waves: the first was from 1989-1990 and included a random sample of 452 married or cohabiting women and 447 married or cohabiting men from Winnipeg, Canada; the second was from 1991-1992 and included 368 women and 369 men all of whom participated in the first wave. Subjects completed the CTS & other assessment instruments. 39.1% of women reported being physically aggressive (16.2% reporting having perpetrated severe violence) at some point in their relationship with their male partner. While 26.3% of men reported being physically aggressive (with 7.6% reporting perpetrating severe violence) at some point in their relationship with their female partner. Among the perpetrators of partner abuse, 34.8% of men and 40.1% of women reported observing their mothers hitting their fathers. Results indicate that 21% of “males’ and 13% of females’ partners required medical attention as a result of a partner abuse incident.” Results also indicate that “10% of women and 15% of men perpetrated partner abuse in self defense.” http://www.menweb.org/throop/battery/sommer.html
August 13, 2007 at 1:50 pm
Ray Blumhorst said,
Bingo! I remember a Mick Jagger song from several decades ago with some lyrics that said, “American women want everything you can possibly imagine of.”
You are correct, IMO, when you came to the realization that there are a lot of tyrannical women out there in American society, out there to exploit everything they possibly can from men, and if they don’t get it or their not satisfied, or their egos aren’t adequately stoked, or they just feel vengeful, or for no particular reason, or than they just feel like it, or their girl friends did it, or a domestic violence advocate told them to do it, they up an file divorce on you. And they don’t care how much they destroy your life or career, or finances, or peace of mind, they just rip you off for everything they can get, then they’re off to the next man to rip off. That’s the sexual power of women in American society, and women in America have been ruthless in their use of that power (in and outside the Church, IMO), and dullard leaders in “the Church” still don’t get it, or confront, what’s going on with those women, IMO.
August 13, 2007 at 2:01 pm
Ed said,
Denis, Sorry, but. I don’t think it’ about marrige 101. It’s not not about MEN. It’s not about what we need to do to change our ways, most of us (tell me I’m wrong guys!) try to meet them half way. Or more. Problem is the courts and the empowerment of the modern female Amerikan woman. The blogs here are replete with men telling their half of the story, anf yes, there are liars beggars and thieves but after two divorces I’ve come to believe that it’s female lies that are the real problem, not men.
Had to fight tooth and nail (and heart - if heart attacks count) to win custody despite the lies from the biological mother who, after the facts were on the table, was determined to be the actual ABUSER.
So, what to do, what to do, what to do. Wait! Wait! Wait! Wait! Try each case on it’s merits! Original, I know. Maybe take away the automatic assumption “mothers” are the best caretakers because they have vaginas and we may have a level playing field. Note, I never advocated that men become the automatic caretaker. That might seem…..sexist?
August 13, 2007 at 3:44 pm
emarel said,
I’m living proof that men can be victims of domestic violence. I’ve been slapped, punched, shoved, scratched, gouged, pushed, kicked in the shins to the point that they were swollen for a week, kicked in the nuts, had my hair pulled, had to go to the ER when a rusty can of Draino was applied to my head…I could go on. Oh yeah, then there were the verbal assaults, too. I could have taken her apart, but I knew that if I retaliated physically, I could be arrested.
I’m not as angry as I used to be. I didn’t want to dwell in it and nurse it, but I’ve moved on with my life, and have come to enjoy the company of a decent woman. The ex has made somewhat of an apology for her behavior.
August 13, 2007 at 5:39 pm
anti armchair generals said,
Commented about amazing amount of anger among the post. but if he had read late Dr EdgarBergman’s book around 1982 most of his coments about “raging hormonal imbalance in women” have convinced legislators to pass laws that only support women. It was among firstbooks to dispute feminist claims.
Amazon.com: The compleat chauvinist: A survival guide for the …Amazon.com: The compleat chauvinist: A survival guide for the bedeviled male: Books: Edgar Berman by Edgar Berman.
http://www.amazon.com/compleat-chauvinist-survival-guide-bedeviled/dp/002510120X - 107k - Cached - Similar pages
As for “vagina for rent” is only available in some rural counties in Nevada. Sting operations are conducted by police and sc “DC Madam” was the agent for wealthy and well connected. One sting operation led to a woman commit suicide. Men convicted of seeking sex has to register as sex offenders.
So it seems celibacy is the one option. but as the scandal with priest revealed, the promise of celibacy is overcome by biological urges in hurting those who trust you.Marriage laws are not the only ones feminist and their friends have changed.
Since lesbian and gays have a common agenda. in California they removed sex offender registration for homosexual offeses from the time when it was still a crimnal act.
August 13, 2007 at 5:44 pm
anti armchair generals said,
Link to Amazon other books from male perspective
http://www.amazon.com/Male-Chauvinist-Books/lm/R1RLAJXZH9ZQSN
August 13, 2007 at 5:59 pm
Denis said,
Ed-we are in agreement. One creates the other. When laws are one-sided to the benefit of women it is no surprise that certain behaviors will eventually arise. This has been going on for such a long time that the attitude and behavior of the typical Amerikan female has become intolerable and tyrannical. A great many women will do whatever they can get away with. And Ray’s post proves that female behavior has clearly gotten much worse over the decades. daveling apparently only sees behaviors as both a cause and effect. Both issues have to be addressed. I have posted here a long time and I’m not excusing their behavior one bit. I have been harsh over the years in my assessment of what women have become. I’m not minimizing bad behavior in the least but I can see that my post did just that. Thanks for bringing that up.
August 13, 2007 at 7:05 pm
Athein said,
The reason for two thirds of wives opting for divorce is again judges not women.
When I decided to divorce my wife I went to my attorney and asked that the court declare my marriage as null and void because my wife promised me the world just to come here from her dilapidated Soviet Union and schemed to take over everything I had from the moment she arrived here.
My lawyer told me that I’d be paying him $5,000 in vain to do this. No judge will ever entertain such a request she said when you have two children in the care of this man-harvester. She said you must wait till she divorces you.
When she did, it was for ‘Child Molestation and Domestic Violence’. Not a word was heard in court about how she and her family deceived me and exploited this marriage for personal gain.
August 14, 2007 at 10:45 am