Unique Assessment of the Father’s Rights Moment

2007-10-19
By

For years I have admired the work and efforts of my Canadian friend Walter H. Schneider who operates as FathersforLife.org. I ask for a reference on another Canadian activist Ken Wiebe who is promoting Fathers.ca as a common FRM portal to create a common ground for all FRM groups.

I received an unanticipated response. It was perhaps one of the best assessments of the FRM I’ve read in years and worthy of serious thought. Walter begins by stating the need for applying the methods of systematic problem-solving to the men’s or fathers’ rights movement. In his words:

The major steps required to be taken are:

1. Problem recognition;

2. Problem analysis and solution design, and

3. Solution implementation and maintenance.

The so-called fathers’ rights movement (FRM) has not yet begun to develop a systematic process to identify what the problem is that ails our society. It is not even close to completing the first step of the problem solving process.

The major aspect of the product of that first step must be that all who participate in it must agree that there is a problem and on what its nature, history and consequences are. Moreover, they need to agree on what is required to move themselves and society from the existing state of dissatisfaction to the desired state of satisfaction. More specifically, they need to determine what that state of satisfaction shall be and that the will exists to attain it. None of that even closely exists in the FRM. The FRM has not even thought about any of that.

The majority of fathers’ rights activists (FRAs) are preoccupied with issues regarding shared parenting, child custody and access, child maintenance, and so on. All of those issues deal with problems that are nothing other than the consequences of separation and divorce.

Separations and divorces are symptoms of fundamental problem causes. One of those causes is the international agenda for the planned destruction of the family. The FRM rarely devotes time to thinking about that. Preoccupation with the consequences of problems obfuscates recognition of causes of the problems whose consequences worry us. That is sad. No problem has ever been solved satisfactorily or successfully by putting Band Aids on its causes. Successful problem solving requires the eradication of the causes of the problems that affect anyone.

There are pro-family organizations that increasingly have a national or international presence, with astounding growth rates — and virtually no FRAs ever heard of them on account of FRAs not being able to see the forest for the trees. That may largely be due to ignorance by most, but at least for a substantial majority of FRM leaders it is due to them not wanting to restore society’s respect for and appreciation of the institution of the family. They want equal or equitable shares of the fall-out of their separations and divorces. If you don’t believe that, then tell me where there is presently a discussion by FRAs on “no-fault” divorce and on the need for abolishing it.

FRAs have reduced themselves to negotiate, from the position of the defeated, the terms of their surrender in the war against the family. By stating that, I have no intention to insist that FRAs do not need to fight and struggle to address the inequities of the fall-out of divorce. However, as FRAs occupy themselves with that, they have absolutely no time for anything else, least of all for any work that strengthens families, communities and nations.

That is a major reason why FRAs receive little respect. They are perceived as working from a position of disgruntlement rather than from a position that is the basis for the promotion of the greater good for all of society.

For a little more on that, you should have a look at the mission of the fathers’ rights movement.

Against that background, where does Ken’s proposal fit in? What will it accomplish with regard to promoting the greater good of all of society? Even if the administration of Ken’s proposal will be effective, technically, what practical value will it provide? A “portal” for FR organizations, with a specific discussion forum for every single imaginable issue for tiny groups of like-minded individual who each individually meet and propound their opinions, with little and perhaps scarcely of any central message or agenda permeating or inspiring them all. It may be somewhat like interactive Cable TV channels, hundreds of them on a single feed, where anyone can surf the channels and select the discussion forum that fits his taste.

Cable TV has done nothing to promote a unified culture, but it has done a lot to further social, jaded and even brutal aberrations and to thereby erase the vestiges of the culture we once had (which is of course a big part of the implementation of the agenda for the “march through the culture” envisioned by Gramsci – and by others like him in the Frankfurt School who brought about the cultural revolution in the US, from where it then spread into all of the West and then to the rest of the world). It effectively legitimizes any social or moral aberration that is fit to be broadcast, with what is being fit for consumption being determined through constantly worsening and ever more degrading moral standards.

How will an FRM portal become an improvement on that? However, there will be one good outcome. It will be possible to eliminate all dissent amongst FRAs by sending every single dissenting group of like-mined individuals to a room of their own, right? However, how will that promote unity and a common and shared policy program to which every FRA is committed?

Ken is an outstanding FRA who has been and still is involved in some extremely important issues. It would hardly serve the FRM if Ken were to disperse his skills by quite possibly squandering them in promoting his scheme that most likely will at best do very little to promote unification of the FRM.

In the long run, FRAs matter very little and do nothing to help prevent the disappearance from view, within about four generations, of the cultural heritage (including the institution of the traditional nuclear family) that we had become accustomed to and even of the populations that once-upon-a-time adhered to that cultural heritage. We progressed from a culture catering to social progress to a culture of death.

I mentioned the pro-family movement of which virtually no FRAs want to have any part. That FRAs don’t is regrettable, because on account of that the pro-family movement is very much influenced by feminists and by feminists goals, doctrine and dialectics.

Now just a few words about current trends in social and political evolution.

The vast majority of FRAs is blissfully unaware of changes affecting those trends. Although feminist-imposed edicts addressing so-called women’s rights issues are very much a reality of every-day life, feminism has fallen into disrepute and is withering on the vine.

The feminist experiment with the family flopped and is one of the worst calamities that ever befell mankind. Our society is slowly waking up to that, even though that fact passes-by the vast majority of FRAs, instead of them taking advantage of that for the sake of the institution of the traditional nuclear family. One of the reasons for that is that many FRAs are in fact feminists or, if not, pursue the goals of feminism by actively or passively opposing the promotion of the traditional nuclear family.

That is an extreme irony. Restore the institution of the traditional nuclear family, and the status of men is automatically restored. That is nothing but common sense. It is reverse-social-engineering of feminism’s implementation of the agenda for the planned destruction of the family.

The feminist movement is dead. All that remains of it now are crones who are nevertheless still very influential in the powerful positions into which they installed themselves in all sectors of society during the last few decades. They will die or retire and be gone. Their positions will be taken by powerful women, and by powerful men who suck up to those women.

Men in society in general will remain in the position of second-class citizens that the feminists (there are more male than female feminists) created for them over the decades. Ultimately it will be fathers who will be left holding the bag. They already are and increasingly will be the Pariahs of society.

In my view it appears that FRAs do absolutely nothing to prevent any of that from happening — web rings or not, Fathers Canada portals or not.

There is quite a bit more to all of this, as all of it must be contemplated within the context of public opinion, of what passes for public opinion (the media) and of how the latter influences the first. In a nutshell, interest groups control the media and the message with which the media indoctrinates the masses. Accordingly, the masses then elect their “representatives” who are in fact individuals that please the media and please the interest groups who control the media.

Solve that conundrum and you will be able to restore the status of men. The feminists did something exactly comparable by creating a solution to an alleged problem, the perception of a lack of status of women, and by usurping (and even by creating) controlling positions in the media and in all sectors of society (including the churches).

Again in a nutshell, feminists preached their message for centuries and for more than a hundred years dominated and controlled the media and the delivery of the message to the masses. It is now time for the FRM (through the Internet) to deliver a new message that becomes the dominant one for the masses.

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  • Denis

    All the social variables of marriage, divorce, out-of-wedlock births, crimes on children, crimes by children, and others effect society at large. We are losing ground economically and are being stretched militarily. We are losing control of our own destiny and are losing the control we had globally. We are seeing the rise of economic, political, and military competitors. America is gradually collapsing. Look out 20 years and ask yourself what you see. More of the same but worse? Me too. Feminism has been an utter disaster. Our global economic, political, and military competitors will probably be grateful to the feminists one day. It was they afterall, that took a hugely powerful nation, and weakened it’s foundations to the point of collapse. All based on the lie that women were worse off than men. The current social variables as they stand now are not sustainable indefinately. And they continue to worsen. Look how divided America is today. Many do not even think America is even worth saving. When the state forces gender apartheid and takes children from fathers, who can balme anyone for not giving a damn about America anymore. These are the End of Days of America as a great nation. Plan accordingly.

  • NotNOW

    “FRAs have reduced themselves to negotiate, from the position of the defeated, the terms of their surrender in the war against the family.”

    I suspect this may be true, but that may be all they believed they could hope for. As progress is made, as more join the fight, as successes are achieved, it is plausible to raise the goal.

    The family IS what matters. The family is the last bulwark against government, any kind of government, matriarchal or otherwise. The family is the best way to raise competent, whole, independent-thinking citizens. That is why there IS an international war on the family. The message from government is clear: “Shut up, and send us your money and your children”.

  • http://www.geocities.com/rogerfgay/ Roger F. Gay

    “If you don’t believe that, then tell me where there is presently a discussion by FRAs on “no-fault” divorce and on the need for abolishing it.”

    Lloyd: You’ve got to introduce him to Stephen Baskerville’s writings. A good place to start is by recommending his new book. For a real direct look at a discussion above nit-picking, he can even look at the MND round table discussion in which Stephen participated, on Fathers’ Rights and the Marriage Movement:
    http://mensnewsdaily.com/secondaries/roundtable/roundtable.htm

  • college activist

    You cannot win the public opinion vote…If no-one knows what you are talking about!!

    The first and last battle will be won simply by acting to raise awareness, and passing on facts/statistics!!

    With the internet we can circumvent the main stream media’s anti-male lace curtain !!!

    ….A real man can protect his sons, as much as his daughters!!…pass on the links

  • http://www.mensdefense.org Lloyd Selberg

    Just a note on Walter:

    He now devotes most of his efforts to his site without much public comment. His fathersForLife site has more traffic than MND from Canada, US and World according to according to alexa.com (2007 10 18)

    No question Walter appears a little isolated, but after years of yakking on groups he decided to do his own thing and has. I omitted a page link referenced “the mission of the fathers’ rights movement” http://fathersforlife.org/fatherhood/better.htm

    His site is a tribute to what one dedicated man can do when not distracted by everyone’s advice.

  • http://www.geocities.com/rogerfgay/ Roger F. Gay

    Lloyd: I’ve mentioned before, the difficulties of leading fathers’ rights groups. It’s a tough job (I think I compared it to leading Klingons). I’ve always been more comfortable being on my own since I’m more of a political analyst than politician. I made serious progress in my work on the science and engineering of child support guidelines. As testimony to the difficulties of group work – now I can’t even get others to look at it. I don’t know Walter Schneider but I don’t see links to my work or that of others at his website – so much for connectedness! I think it would be worthwhile to give him a tip about Stephen’s book. That’s very important. A good way for him to be part of the FRM would be to advertise the book on his site (and read it hiimself). BTW: I checked alexa – and his traffic rank appears to be much lower than MNDs. Do you mean that he has a significant audience in Canada?

  • http://www.geocities.com/rogerfgay/ Roger F. Gay

    Also – his website looks good – nice use of Microsoft Frontpage; and he does seem to be a good writer. If he manages to get more in touch with what’s going on outside of his special focus, it wouldn’t be bad for MND to include a Canadian point of view. Even if he wants to write to critisize Canadian legislation etc., that could be a good thing. There’s no reason why MND should not have a more international mix of writers. MND is not a fathers’ rights group. He can use his expert knowledge to inform people without being concerned about playing politics with readers. MND was building an international perspective for a while. I live in another country, and have occassionally acted as a foreign correspondent. And Canada has a similar Constitution and is integrating more and more with the US. They followed the US into the fathers’ rights problem – so – if he’s looking for a broader perspective – joining with the discussion on an international level is one sure way to get there.

  • http://www.geocities.com/rogerfgay/ Roger F. Gay

    I just want to emphasize that Canadians and USiens (if I say “Americans” in this context, it would seem rather confusing – for anyone who knows nothing of geography, both the US and Canada are in North America) — we have a lot in common. With some slight cultural differences, I have found the marketing of anti-father legislation to have been the same all over the world. Bureacrats and politicians play the same games to avoid dealing honestly with the issues. It was striking as I followed events in Australia. The game there was a few years behind the US – and simply with knowledge of what had happened in the US, I was able to predict step by step, how things would go there. It happened even though newspapers in Australia practiced greater freedom of the press – publishing views on both sided – and there were officials and other heavy weight commentators who told the truth. In the end – fake government investigations that concluded simply by repeating the original myths and blew off critisism and complaints as the hollow noise of parents who were trying to avoid responsibility.

  • http://www.mensdefense.org Lloyd Selberg

    I hoped that all would reflect on the big picture that Walter presents. Seeing the forest through the trees is often difficult.

    Ultimately the page link I originally omitted, leads one to conclude that child support and custody and family law would not be a problem if society had not undergone a moral breakdown with self centeredness and irresponsibility replacing self sacrifice and responsible behavior.

    What happened to the common religious belief that service to others was service to GOD?

  • http://www.geocities.com/rogerfgay/ Roger F. Gay

    Lloyd: I listened to much of the Family Research Council conference yesterday and posted a couple of comments in the discussion under article “Dobson is Wrong – Maybe” — I pinged the article for you. Based on the FRC presentations, it would be pretty easy to treat your comment above as chicken and egg – which came first, moral decay or intrusive government policy? Many commentators believe – for good reason – that the cause and effect relationship is the reverse of what you just said. If they are right, then (and I think in any case – even without considering such a relationship) – government policy needs to be fixed.

  • http://www.geocities.com/rogerfgay/ Roger F. Gay

    BTW: It was Newt Gingrich who characterized the Republican role as having been too tolerant of intrusive government policy fostered by the Democrats. I think many people are a little tired of his rhetoric; as if Republicans weren’t as guilty of implementing “progressive” policies. Fact is, they were engaged in a constant battle with Democrats to take the credit. And Newt Gingrich was behind the scenes brokering “bipartisan” support for them with great enthusiasm.

  • conservativation

    Great article. I’ve posted here about this many times, and gotten into a bit of a spat with a writer (I forget his name despite his indications of his utter importance, and Mike’s immediate recagnition of him and invitation to post articles here)
    When ever I encounter purist FRM dogma, dig deep enough, and among the reparations and corrections I find a host of what are undeniably selfish aims. Oh I know I know you gotta put the pendulum back a little extra to keep you gaims.
    And I would agree, save when the issue of divorce comes up. They not only focus uniquely on FR issues, but indeed OPPOSE limiting no fault divorce. They hide it well, but some are double minded. When I’ve asked about marriage issues they offer the same hollow rhetoric about “why blah blah blah…waste of time etc.” Sure under the current system, but would everyone be better off if MARRIAGE was fixed, rather than making sure everybody has plenty of money after the kids get screwed over by divorce?
    Because of my fascination with this issue in church especially, I spent a couple weks posting on a Christian website where mainly it was for those divorcing and the divorced. Men and women.

    I guess I’d been too long here and other similar sites, because withing a week a woman there had …GASP….filed a grievance with the moderator about me. It relates to this topic because as usual I was harping about the rate of divorce in church and how I think pastoral coddling of women is the main reason. I use the (borrowed) term “evengelical feminsm”
    Over the course of the week I wrote about that. It is worse then I though, and the church is a mess on this. The men on the site were all about male blame along the lines Will Malven did here awhile back, and the women are typical misreaders and unable to follow the simplist writing without the standard comeback “well, not all women—-fill in the blank. The women there loved the men there except the one guy other then me who flirted with the notion women were ever at fault. The rest blame the old cliche, man leaves family for babe.
    I lost hope. And when I read FRM stuff from a secular perspective, I lose hope as well.
    Anything less than sweeping marriage reform is less then an aspirin before decapitation.

  • http://www.mensdefense.org Lloyd Selberg

    From: The Baby-Boom Generation
    To: Everybody Else
    Re: An Overdue Apology

    We’re sorry that because we were raised in an era of prosperity we took it all for granted. We belittled discipline, laughed at delayed gratification and scoffed at the work ethic.

    We’re sorry that we rejected the schools of our day. Now our kids can’t read unless we send them to private schools.

    We’re sorry that our misplaced desire to expand our minds made drugs look so attractive.

    We’re sorry that we needed to “get in touch with ourselves.” Now we are a bunch of blubbering, daytime-television watching crybabies, constantly looking for the next self-improvement fad to come along.

    We’re sorry that in caring about our foreign neighbors we made our borders unprotected, our aliens illegal and our education bilingual.

    We’re sorry for wanting to be more open and accepting. It made us turn our backs on our nation’s heritage in the name of tolerance.
    We’re sorry that because we didn’t want to be selfish like we thought our parents were, we supported a welfare system that imprisoned the poor by pretending to be daddy.

    We’re sorry we viewed sex as free love. We didn’t see the skyrocketing divorce rates and record breaking teenage pregnancies that were sure to come.

    We’re sorry for mocking religion. We thought it was too unsophisticated. Now our kids can’t say grace in school, see the Ten Commandments on the wall or put on a pageant at Christmas time.

    We’re sorry that we wanted to liberate society from the old-fashioned rules that our parents’ generation embraced. We were sure that there was no right or wrong. Now we have increased dishonesty, corruption and crime at the highest levels of our land.
    We’re sorry that our generation protested a war we didn’t like. We didn’t realize our peacenik mentality would turn our military into a pizza delivery service.

    We’re sorry for wanting to get rid of prejudice. We believed in the brotherhood of man. We never thought our government would discriminate instead.

    We’re sorry that in wanting to treat women fairly, we tore moms away from their homes and their kids.

    We’re sorry that although we fancied ourselves as being free of the trappings of fashion and vanity, we have now become a self-obsessed, tummy-tucked, liposucked, petty people who refuse to grow up or grow old.

    Most of all, we’re sorry for all of the good intentions that went awry.

    Our penance will be spending the rest of our days convincing you that we were wrong.

  • David R. Usher

    Lloyd,

    This is the best piece you have ever written, particularly with reference to:

    1. Pointing out that feminist men are killing their own futures both in and out of the FRM/MRM.

    2. Pointing out that the “marriage movement” (some still call it the “pro-family movement”) is the strongest political and ideological platform on which to base future operations.

    3. Essentially pointing out that the movement still does not have a leading organization to take on the larger issues, aggressively organize, and make the changes happen.

    While it would be wonderful if the individuals of this movement could somehow develop a “consensus movement” on their own, history of them movement demonstrates that we will be a weak and unrepresented movement in the absence of a well-financed, politically attached organization comprised of the best leaders of the movement.

    I do encourage everyone to get a copy of Baskerville’s book “Taken Into Custody”. It is by far the most powerful book published since Warren Farrell’s “Myth of Male Power”. But Baskerville’s book is more powerful because it speaks to the nation, not just to the MRM/FRM. With care, this book could lead to the founding of a major organization and the development of national political action of the sort we have been dreaming about for years.

  • merck

    The fathers’ rights movement is not the handful of people who claim to be the movement. We need some of them like Steve Baskerville who speak in plain English about the problem.

    Most of the fathers’ rights movement, has never even heard of the fathers’ rights movement, and those who have, view the few who think they comprise the movement with aversion.

    The fathers’ rights movement is the millions of good men who no longer play the game.

    Don’t pay court ordered child support, someday your kids will thank you. Millions of good folks, men and women, refuse to pay this extortion. Don’t hire attorneys and don’t participate in “kangaroo proceedings”. Boycott the legal industry altogether as much as possible.

    Don’t pay your taxes. Find ways to keep the money you earn and give as little as possible to the government. Forget about tax returns, keep the money upfront by claiming more dependents and then just don’t file for a return. The government claims as many as 60,000,000 people are presently doing this for a wide variety of reasons. Hillary Clinton vows to “crack down” on these individuals.

    That’s just a couple of suggestions. There are a lot of other ways to fight our “subjugation”, you just have to take action and stop paying lip service.

    Talk is cheap, and that’s all you’re going to get from the handful of people on the internet who claim to be the “fathers’ rights movement”.

    Kevin Merck

  • college activist

    post 13…lloyd…

    apology accepted!! But now it’s time for effective action to loosen the noose that youre generation gave to my generation!!

  • merck

    One more thing.

    How many of you “fathers’ rights activists” have donated to the drive from ACFC to get out the message about Baskerville’s new book. They’re only trying to raise $2500 for a radio campaign.

    Talk is cheap, donate or hold your piece.

    Kevin Merck

  • http://www.mensdefense.org Lloyd Selberg

    Careful Merck:

    Keep focused on changing the public character toward self-sacrificing and responsible behavior and be careful which “piece” you hold.

    I had suggest raising about $250,000 to get Steve’s book in the hands of every legislator in the country. Only if they were had delivered by effective representatives without anger would they accomplish the goal rather than serving as paper weights.

    Thanks Ush:

    But credit goes to Walter. He’s a leader even if he is very wise and silent German old fart.

    I hope you understand that I often argue issues such as repeal of the 19th more for the sake of discussion than because I firmly support them. There must be a reason that most scriptures suggest women be subordinate to men. Is suffrage the root of our problems or can self-sacrificing and responsible men and women work together?

  • merck

    Be careful of what? Saying something that makes sense? I will speak my mind freely without being intimidated by you.

    You can suggest raising a billion dollars to promote his book. All that’s just more talk. What have you donated personally?

    Like I said, put up or shut up.

    Kevin Merck

  • MensIssuesObserver

    Lloyd,
    The idea that “feminism has fallen into disrepute and is withering on the vine” is wildly out of touch with reality.

    To feel the pulse of what is going on, look no further than what is coming out of the state and federal legislatures. Secondarily, look at how the courts are ruling.

    Just recently, RADAR was handed their butt 395 to 0 when they tried to intervene in the wildly radical pro-feminist/anti-male domestic violence legislation which was chock full of lies.

    In California, Arnold keeps signing every radical pro-feminist, anti-male, anti-family piece of legislation put in front of him and he is all smiles in front of the cameras and the groups he is pandering to. Invariably, the legislation solves a non-existent problem but adds yet another serious weapon to be used against men, husbands, fathers, and families.

    Don’t confuse what is reflected in fun-house mirrors with what continues to go on around us.

  • MensIssuesObserver

    Lloyd
    “$250,000 to get Steve’s book in the hands of every legislator in the country. Only if they were had delivered by effective representatives without anger would they accomplish the goal rather than serving as paper weights.”

    Lloyd, you are amazingly right on with this, but the reality of it being possible is zero, as in zero degrees Kelvin. So what’s Plan B?

    A suggested Plan B: With some exceptions, the 650 plus bills that will be introduced in the State of California next year will be introduced in a frantic six week period extending from January to mid-February. It follows that October, November, and December of this year, the bills are being written, refined, polished, support gathered and traded, sponsors rounded up, and opposition arguments neutralized.

    In all of the State of California, and to my knowledge the rest of the U.S., there is only one man racing around the Capitol building in Sacramento trying to keep an eye on what is going on from a Men’s and Families Issues viewpoint. He is Michael Robinson of the CAF&C.

    Right about now, the impact of donations to the CAF&C would generate payback of epic proportions for the simple reason that if you can catch a bad bill while it is being written, you can fix it for a few hundred dollars but once it has matured to the point of being filed, it takes a dedicated staff of a dozen and a million dollars to head it off.

    Lloyd, you are dead on that it takes leather-on-marble (as in leather shoes on the State Capitol’s marble floors) to have any traction against the bad bills that get introduced.

    Michael badly needs help, here and now.
    http://www.cafcusa.org/contribution.aspx

    Thanks.

  • http://www.mensdefense.org Lloyd Selberg

    MensIssuesObserver

    Point well taken. I believe Walter was referring to the popularity of the radical feminist agenda expressed by NOW. He include data showing a significant decline in the NOW website traffic. The general acceptance of a feminized society remains unabated. As he points out men and women alike have adopted the matriarchal and androgynous view point.

    We are left to address these popular notions. When most MRA refuse to address the viability of a matriarchal androgynous society we have not clearly established the problem for which we seek a solution. As Rich Doyle says: “Is feminism a cure for which there is no disease, or a disease for which there is no cure?”

    Consider for a moment: “The truth is not always the same as the majority decision.” – Pope John Paul II

  • http://www.mensdefense.org Lloyd Selberg

    I just found Fred couldn’t keep quiet and read his latest rant. I’m envious that I don’t have Fred’s way with words.

    See: http://www.fredoneverything.net/watson.shtml

    The subject is a bit different about crucifying James Watson for a politically incorrect statement, but the message applies to MRA as well.

    Fred Reed says: “The problem is that by maintaining a system based on pretense, we make impossible the discovery of a better approach. Denying that a difficulty exists seldom solves it. We cannot muddle through, since “through” implies something on the other side. There is nothing there.

    The reasonable thing would be to say, “This is how things are. How can we best respond so as to produce the least misery for all concerned?” Instead we lie, to ourselves and each other, try to legislate biological differences out of existence, play “Gotcha!” when someone inadvertently speaks the truth, and dog-pack him till he squirms and wets the rug and apologizes, which Watson did, and nothing changes, or will.”

  • MensIssuesObserver

    Kevin Merck
    Don’t give up your day job for armchair Blog lawyering.

    People following your, ah, “suspect” advice to not pay taxes or file income tax returns get ground up and spit out daily by a government prone to putting a Jackboot on your throat to first convince you they, not you, are incharge. You won’t leave empty handed, however: You gain a new appreaciation for that thing called breathing.

  • http://www.mensdefense.org Lloyd Selberg

    MensIssuesObserver RE #21 Sorry I missed this before.

    You write “Lloyd, you are amazingly right on with this, but the reality of it being possible is zero, as in zero degrees Kelvin.”

    I disagree that finding a disgruntled father with a quarter of million to effect change is very possible especially in California. It’s our general negative mindset that prevents anyone from trying.

    Men will always end up in charge. If the current trends continue, American society and government will collapse and women will be begging for the support of a good man. Women that lack a male protector will not survive. The only question is how bad things have to get before men are left to clean up the mess.

    Convince one of the Google founders that he can potentially save Western civilization and a quarter of a million becomes pocket change. He isn’t going to invest in correcting child support problems, or abused men, but will invest in restoring a functional family system where children have two self-sacrificing and responsible parents.

    As Walter suggest trying to solve the consequential problems without addressing the fundamental problem is futile. Denial of fundamental truths for the sake of political correctness is no answer.

  • college activist

    What has free enterprise become??? who has poisened It??

    Noblesse oblige..Generous and honoreable behavior considered to be the obligation of those of high rank and refined constitution!!

    Is it somewhat distastefull to think of how many have reaped the rewards of a god given free society….But are poisening the water by not getting off a few hundred thousand to combat this anti male social chaos!!

    ARE THESE GODLESS MEN???

  • http://www.geocities.com/rogerfgay/ Roger F. Gay

    Calling father’s rights advocates.

    This seems as good a place as any to point out that there are many entries in Wikipedia, the online encyclopedia, that are worth reviewing. Wikipedia allows anyone to register and become an editor. I have been reviewing material on child support and the fathers’ rights movement recently (including the page on deadbeat dads) and have mostly been making suggestions on discussion pages. I have also formally challenged the entry titled “child support” and suggested a name change for the article “Child support in the United States”.

    If you have no Wikipedia experience, and decide you might want to get involved, I suggest that you tread carefully as you begin. Wikipedia has a lot of rules and a culture. If you jump in like a bull in a china shop you can do more harm than good. Start with discussion on discussion pages unless you are very confident about an edit to the article page (well written, objective, neutral point of view, properly documented ….)

  • merck

    I remember the first time I heard about the men’s/father’s rights movement. It was in the early or mid eighties and at that time had a minimal interest in the topic.

    I was at a girlfriend’s house and she had the Oprah Show on. The show had a man from the men’s/ father’s rights movement on and this disgusting idiot was wearing a dress. I don’t remember the “freaks” name but remember being completely repulsed by this “freak” claiming to represent men’s rights.

    I think anyone who saw that program was turned off by this “character”. I think people are equally turned off by the “do-nothing but talk” people on the internet who claim to be the fathers’ rights movement.

    How many followers does the so-called fathers’ rights movement have? How many people participate in these discussions? My guess is there are a few thousand internet followers who comprise the entire self-proclaimed fathers’ rights movement.

    Millions of good men and women refuse to pay the court ordered extortion guised as child support and the number increases daily. These people are not “deadbeats”; they are good Americans who have simply had enough. These people are the fathers’ rights movement, not the few thousand internet groupies who claim to be the movement.

    In Baskerville’s words:

    “For all we can be certain, all 16 million parents now being pursued as quasi-criminals by armed enforcement agents of the federal government have been involuntarily separated from their children through no legal fault of their own”.

    I might add that millions of these fathers are simply paternity fraud victims or men denied the equal protection of our laws when it comes to decisions about parenting. Family Courts are using single females as a type of “cottage industry” to bring in billions in “much needed revenue for the state” via matching federal dollars for the collection of the much prized, so-called, “child support”.

    These men from all walks of life are the fathers’ rights movement.

    By the way, how many of you groupies have contributed to the ACFC drive to raise money for the promotion of Baskerville’s book?

    Kevin Merck

  • http://www.geocities.com/rogerfgay/ Roger F. Gay

    Well how else would someone wanting to talk about fathers’ rights get on Oprah? A later reincarnation of “the freak” was named Dennis Rodman on The Tonight Show, Letterman, or both.

  • ken wiebe

    Anyone who thinks the feminist movement is dead has not been following the lawsuit in BC, where I am (or was) suing the Status of Women Canada and (self-described “militant feminist”)Laval University professor Pierrette Bouchard.

    People should read the transcripts from this trial, especially the parts where government officials describe how the SWC works.

    people should also know that one of the reasons so few MRAs do anything to tackle militant feminism and the war on fatherhood is because anyone who does will get very little support from fellow activists. Speaking from personal experience, this lawsuit – which is hugely imprtant – has gotten almost nothing in support from the community, and even less financial support. This, despite the names of at least 100 of us being published on a feminist blacklist in a government report that the judge said was defamatory – slander.

    Don’t write of Fathers Canada too quickly. There might be mopre there than meets the eye. http://www.fathers.ca

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/rogerfgay/ Roger F. Gay

    Seeing the fathers’ rights problem as a social and cultural problem is still not quite seeing the forest for the trees. The cause of the problem is political – and political corruption in particular.

    RE: Focus on individual issues – look at the larger community and their activities – science, engineering, development, etc. You will find that specialists play an important role in problem solving. 100% top-down political control is the problem, not the solution.

    Perhaps FR group leaders should spend more time looking at the analyses done by the specialists and tap their wisdom regarding the nature of the problem and potential solutions.

  • MMX

    Lloyd – I’m glad you posted this. I’ve seen this for a while now, and have practically gone insane waiting for someone else to see what I see.

    You asked a very important question – “There must be a reason that most scriptures suggest women be subordinate to men. Is suffrage the root of our problems or can self-sacrificing and responsible men and women work together?”

    Would it be fair to translate your question as, “Look men, we have to choose once and for all. Are women capable of looking out for us as EQUALLY as they expect us to look out for them? Or will they always look out for themselves much more than they look out for us?”

    If women are capable of such equality, then we can trust them to look out for us. But, if they aren’t, then we men have to take the lead and look out for both of us – so that they won’t only look out for themselves.

    Too many men believe that women are capable of looking out for men. (Why else would they get frustrated that women aren’t looking out for men? For someone like me, who thinks it’s impossible for women to look out for men in general, their inability is an expected reality, not a frustrating surprise!)

    When these men realize that women can’t be trusted to look out for men in general, then they’ll be willing to stop being annoyed at women’s essential nature and to do what it takes to protect both men and women from the evils of each other’s greed.

    (The good news is that women are capable of looking out for a MAN IN PARTICULAR – her husband! – even though they’ll never be made to care for men in general. Which is why your pro-family approach makes all the sense in the world.)






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