‘Some of the comments after Glenn’s blog posts are merely angry accusations aimed at the collective members of my gender’

>I strongly feel that accusatory comments in Glenn’s blog are not a constructive way to work out your bitterness when they involve blaming an entire gender of the wrongs of a few.

Just out of curiosity, how did you determine that past accusatory comments concerning American women in general only apply to a few American women? Was this a feeling of yours? What other women friends of yours have told you? Your experiences? Based on your extrapolation that how you feel must be how most other women feel?

Nothing in this world is 100%. There are exceptions to every rule. How do we know your statistics aren’t true in the reverse? What percentage of women support the screwing of their children’s fathers by their mean, self-serving acts or by their silence?

I heard a saying a long time ago concerning a woman accepting or wanting a man’s advances. Basically, it says… Silence means consent. These days, a woman’s desires trump a man’s. This is because no man can stand a woman’s whining for any meaningful length of time. So why aren’t large numbers of women using the increased power they have these days to help their men in return for all the previous times their men have supported them? What percentage of women accept full rather than joint custody in divorce? What percentage of women agree with the relegation of a father to visitor status after divorce, not being allowed to see his children more often than once every two weeks because she feels the need to get even with him for a perceived wrong or just because it’s easier to accept whatever she is encouraged to accept by the system? Would she accept those terms of divorce if the terms were reversed? Wouldn’t the divorce be a lot cheaper if she accepted those terms rather than requiring her ex to fight for them? Does she even care if the man is being forced to pay most or all of the legal fees, for both sides?

I think it’s valid to judge all women of a group (American women) based on the actions of the majority. If they don’t like it, then maybe the majority should show everybody that they don’t like how their men are being treated… and won’t stand for it. Do American women have it in them? I don’t believe so because every time a man is screwed, the woman involved benefits in one way or another.

Instead of joining the chorus of persons who criticize us men at every turn, how about criticizing American women. In your eyes, do women ever deserve criticism? How often do we see and hear men being criticized in the media. Now let’s compare that to how often we see and hear women being criticized for how they treat their men. But you felt the need to join that chorus of male criticizers?

Like those women who call up to complain to Tom Leykis that his comments on his radio show pertain to “all women”, poor Becky is likewise concerned that those men’s activists whose comments about the institutionalized misandry running rampant in America pertain to “all women”.

Here’s a clue, Becky……. and one that Tom regularly dispenses to women like yourself: when I intend to make a comment about “all women”, I use those two words together.

If I do not write “all women”, then I DO NOT MEAN “all women”.

Isn’t it sweet that a woman wants men to stop generalizing about their gender?

Take a look at how men are generalized in entertainment, Becky Barton: as incompetent, bumbling, or evil.

Take a look at how men are generalized in advertisements: ALSO as incompetent, bumbling, or evil.

Take a look at how men are generalized in our nation’s courts and legislatures: men are routinely evicted from their own homes, given no time to prepare themselves or to plan for new lodgings, just because a woman tells a judge that “she’s afraid”.

Take a look at how 5 million women per year can have abortions, put their children up for adoption (usually without even bothering to notify the biological father), or in 42 states even legally abandon their babies in “safe havens”…… yet fathers who are unable to meet family court-imposed child support payments beyond their means are labeled “deadbeat dads”.

Yet you feel as if your gender is being treated unfairly, Becky Barton? Get a clue, please!

And now to continue……

Becky Barton: “Unfortunately, when I try to read the comments after Glenn’s blog posts, I find that some are merely angry accusations aimed at the collective members of my gender. We are accused of doing a wealth of horrid things, from paternity fraud, to false accusations of domestic violence, to all manner of dishonest, manipulative behavior.”

fourthwire: Why “unfortunately”, Becky Barton? If you aren’t grownup enough to read about some fundamental FACTS about the nature of America’s gynocracy, then put your head back under the covers and let the grownups sort things out.

In fact, women are accused of doing a wealth of horrid things because……. (drumroll please)…… MANY WOMEN ARE DOING A WEALTH OF HORRID THINGS.

Worse yet, they are protected by laws, by feminazi lobbying, and by misguided chivalrists from taking responsibility and even facing punishments for doing those “horrid things”, Becky.

Becky Barton: “However, these are not acts that I have committed. Nor are they typically acts that most of the members of my gender have committed. Despite my knowledge of my own innocence, these accusations seem hurtful and unfair.”

fourthwire: Welcome to the world of men, Becky Barton. I have never beaten a woman, nor abused one…. yet the Violence Against Women Act and IMBRA are both pieces of misandry-ridden legislation that decrease the quality of my life and make associating with women positively risky.

Likewise, any woman can turn my life into a living hell with a false rape accusation, Becky…. even though I am innocent.

Her name will never be mentioned, she will be treated as a “victim”, yet I must hire expensive attorneys and hope that I don’t end up as one of those men who are released from prison after spending decades behind bars after an “Innocence Project” determines that I was in fact actually innocent…… or worse yet, I am forced to serve my entire sentence for a rape that I never committed.

And of course the false accuser is not only provided with aononymity, she is not even prosecuted for risking my freedom…………

And despite MY knowledge of MY own innocence, my implied guilt, because I was born with a penis, is also “hurtful and unfair”.

You’ve got the social, civil, criminal, and reproductive rights, Becky Barton. I do not…… because I was born with a penis, instead of a vagina.

Feminists, claiming to act on YOUR behalf, were a major driving force in making me a fourth class citizen in my own country, Becky Barton.

And just how hard did you protest when you were provided with a wealth of privileges, entitlements, and rights, often at MY expense?

If you were like MOST women, you didn’t seem to mind.

So forgive me if I’m less than tearful at hearing the awful burden that you must bear when you read my posts about MANY American women’s “horrid behavior”.

Becky Barton: “To clarify my point, I am not talking about the general comments about what women are allowed by law to do. I am also not talking about the descriptions of specific examples of atrocious acts by individual women. I am talking about the slams against women suggesting that all of us want to take advantage of men, that we are all inept emotional wrecks, or that our goals in life are to hurt men in any way that we can. Hopefully, you get the idea.”

fourthwire: And to clarify my point, MANY, even MOST American women DESERVE the slams that I provide, since MANY, even MOST American women have no qualms whatsoever about taking advantage of men, MANY, even MOST American women are inept emotional wrecks.

And MANY, even MOST American women don’t care if they hurt men in any way since MANY, even MOST American women are self-centered, self-obsessed individuals, with little or no empathy, regard, or respect for men.

Hopefully YOU get the idea……

Becky Barton: “Working out your bitterness is a fine thing to do, and I am certainly not the “thought police.” ”

fourthwire: In fact, you are behaving PRECISELY as if you are the “thought police”, Becky Barton.

You don’t like reading comments that pertain to other women, yet you would have ME stop writing comments that pertain to other women.

So you’re being a bit disingenuous, to say the least.

Becky Barton: “However, I strongly feel that accusatory comments in Glenn’s blog are not a constructive way to work out your bitterness when they involve blaming an entire gender of the wrongs of a few. These comments strongly detract from the valid arguments that Glenn and other readers are making.”

fourthwire: Isn’t that sweet!!! A WOMAN telling men about “constructive” ways of ending America’s gender apartheid.

Who told you that I am blaming “an entire gender for the wrongs of a few”…… and why are you stupid enough to believe her?

And for that matter, who told you that the misandry in America is limited to a “few” women? I would suggest that MANY American women routinely engaged in activities that are misandry, Becky Barton.

And the way that I can easily convince you or anyone else is to watch those activities and listen to those comments, opinions, and go over those court rulings and laws that affect men adversely.

Now count the number of women who are fighting to have those laws and court rulings reversed, Becky.

And while you’re at it, count the number of women who are demanding to be treated on an equal basis with men in ALL aspects of society: criminal, social, civil, and reproductive aspects together.

Count the number of women who want to have women forced to register for Selective Service,

Count the number of women who want men treated equally in Family Court,

Count the number of women who want men to have equal reproductive rights.

Count the number of women who want VAWA declared unconstitutional.

Count the number of women who want America’s baby boys protected against neonatal genital mutilation as America’s baby girls have been protected since 1996.

Becky Barton: “If we argue that gender bias against one gender is wrong, then logic dictates that gender bias against either gender is wrong. If the reasonable women of the world had spoken out when the women’s movement turned so terribly far astray, many of the wrongs currently being done to men might never have happened. Do we want history to repeat itself with the genders reversed?”

The “reasonable women of the world” have NOT spoken out against the feminazis, Becky Barton.

That’s why the “men of the world” are doing so, and doing so in increasing numbers.

And that has MANY women, including yourself worried. Get used to the feeling, Becky Barton.

Too many men have been treated as fourth-class citizens in their own nation, stripped of their freedoms, their rights, and their dignity, thanks to the feminazis, the politicians, and millions of men and women who refused to loudly proclaim “ENOUGH!”

So don’t worry yourself about “history repeating itself”.

Women declared a gender war against men and boys.

Men are going to finish this war. It will not be pretty, and it will not happen overnight. And it will happen whether you like it or not, Becky Barton.

Becky Barton: “Please, if you are commenting in Glenn’s blog, do not continue in the practice of bitterly slamming all women.”

fourthwire: Please use your eyeballs to inspect my sentences for the word “all” before the word “women” when I comment in Glenn’s blog.

If you do not see the word “all” before the word “women”, I am referring to “some” women, “many” women, or some subset of women.

Don’t like generalizations about women, Becky?

I don’t like generalizations about men.

But until those generalizations about men stop being uttered by women, don’t look for me to have any guilty conscience.

Becky Barton: “Please do not turn the logical and honest people away. These are the people we really want on our side!”

fourthwire: If those “logical” people ASSume that my references to “women” mean “all women”, they aren’t all that logical.

And whether or not THOSE women are “on our side”, the men’s rights movement will continue to gain force, political power, and momentum, Becky.

Too many men are angry and too many men are starting to stand up to the feminazis and their misandry-laden creations in our society for the status quo to continue.

Well, my friends Dittohd and fourthwire left few stones unturned in “deconstructing” the “but, not all women are like that” ploy. And, tactful about it they were, indeed – in fact, probably far too tactful given the number of times that ploy has been used to silence men when they tried to talk about the very issues which our late-to-the-party messiah wannabes seem to now, finally, have become concerned about.

So, let’s examine this one point –
Recently, my innocent stepchildren, my husband, and I had a traumatic experience in family court that demonstrated to me that the system is biased against fathers. Now that I realize how extremely widespread the problem is, I am seeking involvement in the men’s and father’s rights movement.

How anyone could live in this culture and remain completely unaware of these issues astounds me. Where in the world have you been living, Becky, under a rock? The divorce rate is over 50%, married people make up less than half the households in the US, 40% of all births are outside of wedlock, nearly 60% of all children will spend some or all of their childhood in a single parent family, and 22% of single men say they will never marry under any circumstances. Things did not get that way overnight, nor even in the last week, month, or year.

No, what happened to inspire your newfound “enlightenment” is that the problems finally came home to roost in your backyard. Now that you are being personally affected, well now it becomes a problem and your oh-so-delicate feelings are being hurt by the harsh statements of men who have been dealing with this for years, in some cases decades.

I probably cannot find the words to express how much that makes you exactly like the women we have dealt with and speak of, and not at all the exception you claim to be.

Well, when I start seeing women actually doing something other than showing up on men’s boards and telling them what is wrong with the way they are expressing themselves, then I will become concerned about “making them feel unsafe”, or hurting their pwecious widdle feewings, Until then, I regard their input as simply useless and irrelevant.

And, the reason for your very belated entry into the arena illustrates the reason for and method to our meanness – I have never seen a woman express any concern at all for these issues until they start to affect her personally! As Edmund Burke is often quoted – “All that is necessary for the forces of evil to triumph is for enough good men to do nothing.” These so called “good women” have done nothing and said nothing for the past 4 decades while the situation we have today has been developing. Now that they are finally beginning to get hurt by it, now that the evil which has been being done in in their name is beginning to affect them, well now they finally show up to … gripe about the way men are speaking about the issues.

Men are not going to keep standing around with Prozac grins on their faces while chivalrously taking all the heat. Men are not going to keep foolishly and optmistically thinking “the next one will be different, the next one won’t burn me so badly.”

It’s time for men to put women on the hot seat with them and starting making women prove that they really aren’t “like that”, just as the Duke 3 had to prove that they didn’t rape Crystal Gayle Mangum (or Janette Rivers). Matt Winkler didn’t even get the chance to prove that he wasn’t “like that”, because he was dead when his wife accused him of abuse.

Where are all the women screaming for her to never be allowed close to those little girls again? They apparently have nightmares when they are forced to visit her and the 9 year-old worries that her mother may kill her. Where in the world is the “in the best interests of the children” doctrine in her case? Why aren’t decent mothers marching in the streets demanding that this evil creature never be allowed close to those vulnerable children again?

Glenn has one approach, while others of us have a different approach. Out of respect for the good work that Glenn does, most of us go along with what his approach when we are on his blog or column.

But, Becky, be aware that Glenn represents what is quickly becoming a minority of the MRM – men who still care at all what women think or feel. Steven Baskerville advises young men “Do not marry, do not have children.” Even David Usher, probably the most dedicated cheerleader that exists among men for marriage , just said -
“young men will not participate in marriage until the divorce system is reformed and moved to a “responsibility-based” model. For forty years, men have married women “until death do us part”, until she changed her mind. This most often occurs shortly after the birth of a second child, and corresponds in time with the marriage being long enough to get the lion’s share of a property settlement. Two kids = one whopping child support order.

This situation is out of women’s hands now. Men have made their move, and they won’t change their minds until marriage is restored as a protected and valued institution at the policy level.”

It’s all well and good for you to be talking about “fairness” now that the scales have tipped so far to the advantage of your sex, but even now it comes across as self-serving. You would have had a lot more credibility if your epiphany had come several years ago, and not only as a result of the problems affecting your own meal ticket.

Correction – I missed a closing tag (no edit function on comments here), the last paragraph of the above post should not be italicized, it is not part of Usher’s comments, it is my statement.

First of all, Betsy, let me apologize for my colleagues getting your name wrong.
Now that that has been clarified, you and about 85% of American women had get ready o have their feelings not just hurt but crushed.
For 40 years you have treated men abyssmally and a generation of men put up with that.
That’s over.
Start getting ready to hear things like Ror v. Wade was a fraud, that “Red Betty” Frieden was not a down-trodden house-wife but a stalinist who wanted to wreck this country by attacking the family unit (see David Horowitz on this), that American women were stupid enough to be sucked into this charade by bona fide nut-cases like Marilyn French (“All men are rapists and that’s all they are”-where were the “goo” women then?) Mary Daley, Germaine Greere, Naomi Wolfe and Susan all of whom slandered men viciously; get ready to hear this, Betsy, and more and to hear it over and over again until it sinks in and the recourse to tears, anger and teh sex-games just don’t work any more.
And don’t say you weren’t warned.

Once again I apologize for the grammar and the typing.

I can only concur with all the above anguish, Betsy. I need not add to the stone turning. And I do understand what you are saying. Just as I understand my own anguish, that of other men, – and yes, yours at being so shocked at men’s seeming antagonism.

It is a direct result, Betsy, of neglect.

*Your* emotional and intellectual neglect.

Personally.

So much for ‘empathy’.

It isn’t only children who exhibit disturbing behaviour when they have been severely – deliberately – neglected.

Your behaviour disturbs me and others here. You have neglected even yourself. You have allowed an intellectually dishonest milieu to develop around you, within you, permeate your life. You have neglected yourself.

But that self-neglect is minor compared to what you have permitted with your culpably ignoring what has been going on around you and the rising mound of shattered male spirits that litter your own back yard.

Your reaction is akin to the sudden realization that people have their arms hacked off in Darfur. How do you think those folks feel? What do you think those folks say? “Oh, its not every Janjaweed that’s like that”. Hah!

No, you say, “It’s not my fault”.

OK. Whose is it?

From all that I have done, all that Glenn has done, all that so many other men have done – while you went blithely on with ignoring it all – it clearly isn’t our fault. But, hey, Betsy, I have to put up with women seeing me as a probable rapist – its just a matter of time in their minds. What did you say and do?

But, Betsy, you are walking up. In my terseness I forget myself.

Welcome to the fight. Please, be on our side.

Get used to the anger and generalisation, even if it is a shade offensive. We live with offence. We get offended every day from the moment we wake up and our consciousness of the male place in the world – in the friggin’ cupboard under the stairs – comes back to us. And it continues throughout the day, into the evening news and entertainment. It makes us angry to be treated so badly and then be lectured by one who has a history of neglecting.

Our acceptance of you will come as you demonstrate your bona fides.

Get used to the anger. Get used to BEING angry. Use it for good but expect people like yourself to take it personally.

hey betsy..how is “this” comment section of glenns working out for ya? i know a bunch a women like you. second marriages are a wake up call now aren’t they?

can’t speak for your hubby, but rest assured for every post here, there are 100 that didn’t!!!!

welcome to the party missy.

Though slavery was outlawed in 1865, Blacks today still complain of the injustice by the government and people.

Though the holocaust was over in 1945, Jews today still complain of the discrimination and hatred by that government and people.

I suspect that when the truth is more widely known about the mistreatment of fathers by deceptive government feminists today, there will be complaints of injustice and mistreatment by fathers.

When a man’s wife, children, income, property, and liberty is removed from him for little or no reason, anger is justified. Though the anger ought to be brief.

Further, I’m amazed that there are not riots in the streets given the rebellious nature of American men, however, the Jews and Blacks did not rebel either. They too had to wait for just and compassionate leadership.

Like Southern slave owners and Nazi government employees, today a woman has the choice to use a government system to steal men’s children, income, and property.

I also observe that women give false witness against a father/husband to the government for additional awards.

Who does than man blame – the woman or the government? What needs to fixed first – the woman or the government?

I suppose that there were a few Nazis that did not persecute Jews. I suppose that there were a few Southern slave owners that did not approve of slavery.

I suppose that there are a few feminists that honor fathers and husbands. I apologize that they are guilty by association.

Hi Amfortas:

Thanks for all that support. Whew! And Zed too.

Only one comment:

>Welcome to the fight. Please, be on our side.

While many or even most men will feel ‘the more the merrier’, I don’t believe this to be the case. I not only don’t think we need the likes of Betsy on our side, I think we are better off without her.

I think we men will be infinitely better off if we do this on our own and fix things the way real, non-lobotomized men fix things. We lost the Vietnam War 35 years ago because women and girly-men got involved in our strategy who never should have even been close to it. If we men don’t take over the helm of this ship, the problem will never go away.

Zed, you post so infrequently, but I have found every one of your posts to be eloquent, well-written, with compelling logic.

Your latest post was no exception.

I only wish that I had written it myself.

Thanks for providing this latest contribution to MND and men’s rights.

Dittohd said,

Hi Amfortas:

Thanks for all that support. Whew! And Zed too.

Only one comment:

>Welcome to the fight. Please, be on our side.

While many or even most men will feel ‘the more the merrier’, I don’t believe this to be the case. I not only don’t think we need the likes of Betsy on our side, I think we are better off without her.

I think we men will be infinitely better off if we do this on our own and fix things the way real, non-lobotomized men fix things. We lost the Vietnam War 35 years ago because women and girly-men got involved

As someone who came of age during that Vietnam era, and who has watched the entire slow motion train-wreck which has happened to the culture since, I both agree and disagree with you, Dittohd.

We “lost” the Vietnam because that whole fiasco violated the first principle that they teach at the war college where all the top military brass are trained – that a war is considered to be “won” or “lost” depending on whether the political objective of the war is achieved. We could not possibly do anything but “lose” that war because there was never was a clear political objective .

Few men are anything other than natural pacifists. It isn’t “manly men” who fight and “girly men” who don’t, but rather that all men will generally only fight when they are fighting for something they love or value. That is a big part of why men have been so slow to react to women’s declaration of war against them – most men simply couldn’t get their minds around the fact that a lot of women viewed them as the enemy until they had it proven to them again and again. Even some men whose wives or girlfriends have attempted to kill them have a hard time coming to grips with that fact and will continue to support the women.

The “gotcha” in this whole scenario for women is that concept of “men’s rights” somehow being in opposition to or in conflict with “women’s rights.” All of the legal issues which men are fighting revolve around relationships with women – whether it be parenthood or simple dating and sexual relationships. The only “rights” men are fighting for are the basic rights laid down for the US 220 years ago in the bill of rights – due process, etc. Stripping these from men will eventually come back to bite women – HARD – when the cancerous government which women have supported starts to consume them as well.

Apart from egregious fraud – like false accusations and paternity fraud – I have often rattled people’s cages by making the statement that as long as I treat most women like they could have the plague, I have most of the rights I need. Telling a woman that you find her attractive is “sexual harassment”? No problem, all I have to do is never again in my life tell a woman that I find her attractive. “All sex is rape?” Again, no problem, all I have to do is follow the old dictum to “keep it in my pants.” All down the line the issues of “men’s rights” also directly translate to women’s rights to have men have, and want to have, relationships with them.

Women now are finally beginning to wake up to how deeply and bitterly they have alienated many men from themselves. Women in general have had absolutely no problem demanding whatever they wanted and “felt” was “fair” – like being paid the same amount for 3 sets of tennis that men get paid for 5 sets, and calling it “eek-WALLLET-eee.” If they want the ability to have relationships with men which go beyond a quick hookup or booty call, they are going to have to expend the same type of effort to secure them. That is the political objective of the hard approach to women – to put them on the hot seat of forcing them to become politically active in order to get what they want.

The marriage strike is growing by leaps and bounds. More and more men are talking about Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW) which basically means turning their backs on western women and western cultures. Thousands of men are expatriating, and thousands more are seeking foreign wives – which is why the harpies had to come up with IMBRA to protect the inferior domestic product. Western women – the ones from the US, UK, Australia, NZ, and Canada – are viewed much like American autos back in the 1970s – overpriced and shoddy quality. And, they are also losing out in the (mating) marketplace in just the same way.

There are dozens of factions within the MRM, if not more. The “reconciliation” faction wants, and really does need, for women to be on “their” side. To the Men who are Going Their Own Way, however, women are completely irrelevant and part of the strategy is to place the ball in women’s laps and force them to address the issue out of their own self-interest, or face single motherhood at middle age via IVF. They will now have to fight for the rights of men to have relationships with them, or decent men will simply disappear into the Ghost Nation and they will be left with nothing but the PUAs or lesbian relationships.

As decent men become increasingly difficult to trap and bleed dry with the court system, the reconciliation faction is likely to become increasingly attractive to women, but their efforts aren’t relevant to what the marriage strikers are out to accomplish.

Either way, if the dearies can’t stand the heat, maybe they should get back to the kitchen. Unlike the military and police forces, the hard core of MRAs is not going to “soften” the environment in order to make it more “wimmin friendly.”

“I strongly feel that accusatory comments in Glenn’s blog are not a constructive way to work out your bitterness when they involve blaming an entire gender of the wrongs of a few.”

The wrongs of a FEW……A F……..g FEW ?

Is this women on drugs ?

Check the divorce stats lately ?

Hi. this is my first post, i was directed here from Glenns site and i think i prefer it here. Why? Well, because comments at Glenn’s site for this topic have been closed! Right after this was posted by some disgruntled nutter…

“No one needs this nonsense. This has been a great experiment, and I feel by banning I think 3 posters, the whole communities standard of behavior would come nearly up to acceptable.
As a bartender, I would have tossed out Cavan, Darkness Rising, and Fourthwire. Let em sober up and see if they can behave in the morning.”

…comments were closed. Which is funny given that much older topics are still open for comments. I guess this is what liberals( im one myself, sorry) see as free speech these days. Oh, by the way, comments are still open for Jennifer Love Hewitt’s ass, which of course is much more important to the male feminists that dominate that site.

OK guys, I see where you’re going … merrily along on the road to nowhere … as usual.

Let’s see, since men get overly criticized in society … you must not ever be criticized again. I guess you’re all Mark Rudovs … untouchable. Self reflection is for the other guy … oops, I mean gal.

Go ahead … alienate those that want to help you … assist you … support you. Demand endless profuse apologies from any and all women who enter your worldline.

Your anger gets the better of you … every time.

Hey Spectre … who the farck are you, some Johnny come lately?

I’ve been around for a long, long time. Seen the forum here disintegrate twice … or is it thrice, yada, yada, yada.

It aint Betsy’s fault you’re in a world of hurt. From what she wrote … she’s on your side and trying to help you.

Her reception?

Another litany of rants and grievances of all that is wrong with the world … and her implication in it all. Plus, you generously throw in gratuitous insults … and stabs from the oblique.

I tell ya … you guys are good! You truly know how to win friends and influence people. Ah hell, you don’t need friends … you’ll rant your way to change on your own.

Keep building bridges, guys. Way to reach out to a sympathetic ear.

While I agree with you Mjaybee… I also think that this board has always been confrontational. Women have posted things like this before here and elsewhere, and I think there’s a valid point in her opinion… but there’s also a valid point in the responses.

In the arena of divorce (which is where Betsy’s personal experiences lay), it wasn’t the actions of ‘all women’ that created the situation we’re in… but they’re damn sure all benefitting from it. I talked to my wife about it and she feels that the power women have been given to destroy a man (one she’s probably already pissed at) during divorce is simply too hard to resist. VERY few women don’t leverage that abusive amount of power to the max when it comes time. The above posters are simply reacting to the fact that far too often women are on our side when it’s their current partner being screwed… but when things go sour in their relationship – she very well may be right back on the “stick it to that dirty rotten man” bandwagon.

Personally… I think men given that amount of power would abuse it just as much – but that’s why balance is so desperately required in our family court system.

“Mjaybee said,

Keep building bridges, guys. Way to reach out to a sympathetic ear.”

“Sympathy” is utterly useless, and currying it is a complete waste of time. Any female who can’t stand the heat and must be carried around on a satin pillow lest her fragile “fee-yuhl-ings” get hurt, is a liability to men, not an asset.

Ms “Sympathetic” never gave a damn about any of this until it began to affect her. She isn’t in this out of the goodness or her heart or her great committment to charity. If she is such a lightweight that a few harsh words give her the vapors, then it’s a lot better for everyone involved to wash her out of basic training early and not waste any more time on her.

Now, for those who still don’t get it, let me spell out the strategy –

Remember that a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. We (men) have no place in their world and are completely irrelevant. Women have played out the first two quarters of the gender war with home field advantage, but the winds are shifting. They were confident that men needed and wanted them a lot more than they needed or wanted men. And, that was somewhat true during the early mating years and starting from a social context that expected everyone to marry and have children.

But, now we live in a culture which has disposed of more than 50 million excess and unwanted children and marriage has become little more than a means for women to acquire ex-husbands to gripe about to their girlfriends and bleed dry for alimony and child support. Add to that how high maintanance many of the the diva-wannabes have become, the generally hostile and contemptuous attitude toward men which has become very common among women, and the general resistance among women to doing anything at all kind or caring for a man, and it turns out that a man needs a woman like a bicycle needs a fish. Yeah, slime on our seats and rust on our gears is what all of us dream of – hah!

Only when a couple of generations of women have faced middle age alone – dried up and used up – with nothing to look forward to besides long hours at the office and a housefull of cats, will they start becoming interested in building bridges for their own sakes.

Guys who have escaped the meat grinder of family courts don’t need either sympathy or bridges. Men are quite used to supporting themselves because that is what men have always had to do. And in the past they were expected to support wives and children as well.

But now, if a man avoids the trap of marriage his burden is cut in half or less, and the amount of b**ching, whining, and complaining he has to listen to is cut more than 90%. It is a win all the way around for men.

The guys who have committed the crime of fatherhood are in a bit of a bad way, and I do feel sorry for them. But, it is similar to the sympathy I feel toward someone who got busted for smoking crack cocaine – “You knew it was illegal, but you went ahead and did it anyway.” Even if smoking crack had ever had any appeal to me, the terrible consequences some guys have suffered for doing it would put me off. Marriage and having kids are exactly the same. Every married man I know is miserable and says “Don’t do it!” They are trapped and have to make the best of a bad situation, but the biggest message I take from their plight is “Don’t get trapped!” Years ago, my doctor who had just gone through his 2nd bloody divorce asked me if I was married. I said I wasn’t and he said “Every night and every morning, get down on your knees and thank God for that!”

So, in short, I couldn’t care less about pandering to a woman’s “sympathy”, and any bridge that she might sit around on her passive butt and tell me how to build is only to her benefit and utterly useless to me.

Still, I wouldn’t go as far as christianj and call her a “b**ch”. I think “clueless and irrelevant” covers it. That’s the great thing about never having gone through the family court meat grinder – I’m not nearly as “bitter” as the guys who have, just extremely salty.

Nice try at mind games, though. Too bad so many of them are getting worn out through overuse.

Feminism 101: If 1%, 25%, 50%, even 99% of women routinely do something terrible, then dismiss the commenter’s statements as “hatred towards women” because “not all women are like that”. If 0.000001% of men do something terrible, then scathe, criticize, marginalize, stereotype, and criminalize ALL men.

It is good to have more women willing to take a stand against discrimination, bias, and the criminalization of fatherhood, whether it is intended to benefit fathers, the children who suffer as a result, society in general, or all of these. But the first step men and women alike need to take is to get educated, or deprogrammed from PC feminism, as I refer to tit, because these aren’t issues politicians, big-money media, or Hollywood are willing to expose. The old “not all women are like that” argument is the surest sign of a newbie, or somebody still brainwashed by PC feminism.

Here are some excellent books that helped to get me deprogrammed:

Betrayal of the Child – by Stewart Rein
Divorced Dads, Shattering the Myths – by Sanford Braver
Father and Child Reunion – by Warren Farrell
The Father’s Emergency Guide to Divorce-Custody, by Robert Seidenberg
The War Against Boys – by Christina Hoff Sommers

…and the latest and greatest…

Taken Into Custody – by Stephen Baskerville

Read some or all of these, stay with it a few years, and eventually you will recognize the PC feminist double standard of the “not all women are like that” argument as nothing more than a diversionary mechanism to keep people ignorant of facts and the truth, and maybe you’ll eventually help others to become deprogrammed as well.

To spectre and mjaybee, whether you’re vaginized males or simply females, you seem to believe that men NEED women like Betsy (who happens to be “sympathetic” ONLY because suddenly her life has been suddenly adversely affected by misandry).

Here’s a couple of clue for you both, and one that you badly seem to need:

- Betsy isn’t the first female who showed up on MND or Glenn Sacks’ site to entreat men who endured decades of misandry to behave according to her wishes.

- Betsy is using a typical tactic (“but not ALL women are like that”) that Zed describes so eloquently above. Perhaps YOU have been suckered. I haven’t.

It’s a trick – you’re welcome to continue swallowing bait….. but it doesn’t work on intelligent, informed, educated individuals.

Try to keep up, if you can……

No, last time I checked, I wasn’t “vaginized”. But I have been thrown out of men’s groups in the past for pointing out that crying in my beer and ranting about the ex doesn’t change things.

Maybe that’s why, for so many men, after venting on Mensnewsdaily time and again, not much changes for men legislatively or politically.

Perhaps a change in strategy is due? Nah, just keep complaining, and maybe someone will notice your pain….

You could have fooled me, mjaybee. But I’m interested in shredding your arguments more than attacking you personally.

Men’s groups that practice censorship simply lose any growth in their following to groups that don’t.

And they certainly lose perspective – a problem that feminazi sites face since their administrators generally ban anyone who doesn’t toe the feminazi line of dogma.

As far as venting is concerned, show me one iota of proof that venting on sites precludes action?

Besides, the function of sites such as MND provide ongoing EDUCATION of MRA’s.

And I would point out that your own complaining about others’ complaints doesn’t really contradict the very behavior that you object to.

The men’s rights movement is still in its infancy, even if it’s growing.

You want action – don’t let me get in your way. In the end, presumably we both want the same end – equal rights for men, equal protection for boys, equal rights for fathers, protection for families, etc.

But don’t complain that I am interested in posting on MND instead of following YOUR wishes, please.

It may or may not occur to you but communication and education are among MRAs’ greatest needs in our endeavors.

Forgot to mention: The corresponding thread to the same blog by Glenn Sacks on his own Web site has been re-opened for discussion.

Zed: I wish you posted more. Good stuff there!

Betsy,

Until I see a hundred women picketing a family court judge notorious for unjustly sending divorced men into penury; until I see ‘good women’ fighting for the VAWA to be repealed or turned into an act that provides equal rights and protections for men; until I see successfull career women reach out to pick up the dinner check; until I see a dramatic drop in the filing of false domestic abuse allegations; until I see more domestic violence services for abused men; until I see that boys are no longer being treated like de-sexed, medicated sheep in our communalist public education system; until I see more state or municipally sponsored seminars for men who suffer domestic violence; until I see a female lawmaker on TV who says, unequivocally, that women should receive the same sentences that men receive for committing the same crimes; until I hear a man say that his wife acted in a suprisingly fair manner during their divorce and not like a greedy, self-centered demon willing to use her own kids as a weapon – I will believe that some women actually do care about men in our country.

You see, Betsy, it’s like this: When I see a person stand by and watch as immoral or cruel behavior is repeatedly perpetrated upon others, I have no logical choice but to assume that that person approves of such behavior – if only out of neglect, cowardice, or selfishness. Until I see major, public action by women of stature in this country, and until I see that action supported by everyday women, I will assume that not only do women as a whole not care about men; I will assume that they approve of the injustices being done. As I want to protect myself from these injustices, the only logical choice is for me to distance myself from the perpetrators and the people who become their accomplices by standing around and doing nothing.

I will also assume that a few of the men who have posted here are MGTOWs. In direct relation to what I have said above, I will claim, if only for myself, that MGTOW is basically a self-protective movement. If there is any ‘bakclash’ evident in the speech or ideas of MGTOWs, it is only because a lot of them are decent, hard working guys who have been done great injustices by the legal system and the culture within which they were raised. MGTOWs can be a very wary bunch, and justly so; many of them have been savagely treated. Is it any wonder, then, that women are not warmly welcomed in these discussions? Through our experience, we have seen women come in to ‘support’ our ‘feelings,’ only to turn coat and work against us when their own interests are at stake.

Think about it: if all you see is ‘slamming’ against women here, might you think: “Gee, all these men are all saying the same thing. I’m hearing this kind of stuff a lot lately. They seem really hurt and angry. I wonder if women as a whole are doing something wrong in our culture.” That would show a mentaility that is capable of objective thought. As it is, your only real concern seems to be about how this whole situation affects WOMEN, although you do express some half-hearted concern for men. You come off as a person who’s first order of business is HERSELF. And boy, do we have a lot of experience with that one.

I find that the majority of men here are a very well informed bunch. You’re going to need some facts and solid assertions in your toolkit if you’re going to be respected around here. You need to be able to string together a sound argument. Even if your argument is felt by most to be wrong, you will garner a lot more respect. No one is going to believe you if all you do is present opinions and unrelated assetions disguised as ‘fact.’

And BTW – starting out with “collective members of my gender” is a surefire way to raise a bunch of red flags around here. You’re not going to get far sounding like a Marxist women’s studies proffessor who assigns Andrea Dworkin as reading material.

Mjaybee said,

No, last time I checked, I wasn’t “vaginized”. But I have been thrown out of men’s groups in the past for pointing out that crying in my beer and ranting about the ex doesn’t change things.

Maybe that’s why, for so many men, after venting on Mensnewsdaily time and again, not much changes for men legislatively or politically.

Perhaps a change in strategy is due? Nah, just keep complaining, and maybe someone will notice your pain….

In fact, lots of young men are noticing, and older men too. You certainly don’t hear from women that men are badgering them for “a committment”, or that they are besieged by “good men” dying to get married, in reality quite the opposite – men won’t (“can’t”) “make a committment” and there are just “no good men.” In the UK last year, there were fewer recorded marriages than in any year since record keeping began – fewer than happened when the population was less than half what it is today. Does anyone really seriously believe this is entirely due to “empowered wimmins who don’t need no man” turning down marriage proposals left and right?

When Firestone tires had a serious PR problem related to the quality of their tires, did they take the approach “Shut up, whiners!!! Who cares if our product was defective and caused you to lose your family and crippled you for life! A RealMan(tm) would man-up and buy another set of our tires anyway!”

No, they addressed the quality problems they had and realized that they were suddenly no longer a top tier brand and would have to spend a long time rebuilding their reputation and selling their tires at cut-rate prices.

Somewhere in there is a clue for the astute.

Lurking in this discussion like a vague fog is one of the most persistent myths about marriage – that men benefit more from marriage than women do, so it is somehow to men’s benefit more than women’s to fix what is broken about marriage. This myth is addressed by David Popenoe of the Rutgers National Marriage project – http://health.discovery.com/centers/loverelationships/articles/marriage_myths.html

“Marriage Myth 1:Marriage benefits men much more than women.

Fact: Contrary to earlier and widely publicized reports, recent research finds men and women to benefit about equally from marriage, although in different ways. Both men and women live longer, happier, healthier and wealthier lives when they are married. Husbands typically gain greater health benefits, while wives gain greater financial advantages.”

I, personally, don’t need anything to change for men, either legislatively or politically, just like I don’t need to see marijuana or crack cocaine legalized.

This concept that men must beg women and pander to them in order to get them to support legal and social changes which benefit women as much or more than they do men, is a false one. Men are learning to do a better job of taking care of themselves and are less reliant on women to do this for them than they have been in the past. Thus the benefits to men of marriage have been declining while women’s fiancial gains from divorce have actually been increasing. Men’s life span has actually begun to creep up recently while women’s has not kept pace, eroding the famous “longevity gap.”

A recent study even found that women’s general happiness in life has been decreasing while men’s has been increasing. Cooking and cleaning isn’t nearly as hard as it has been cracked up to be, and isn’t nearly as much of a burden as working long hours to hold onto one of a rapidly shrinking pool of well-paid jobs. I’m doing my bit for “wage parity” by making about 58 cents for every $1 I used to make in my old position in the corporate nightmare, and living quite comfortably now that I only have to support and entertain myself instead of someone with consumption compulsion. I don’t have even 10% the stress I used to, and am having lots more than twice the fun.

Women had absolutely no problem getting very aggressive and vocal for the “rights” they wanted, whether it was the right to vote or the right to abort any unwanted child. It also seems that they aren’t the least bit shy and retiring about defending their right to child support.

It seems to me that if they value marriage, they should have no problem getting equally aggressive and vocal advocating for their right to have men trust them enough to take the risk to marry them – without men having to french kiss their rectums in order to encourage them to do it.

That is the “change of strategy” you mention.

Betsy Barton,

welcome to my world.

Now let me see, for at least the last 20 years there have been a lot of angry accusations aimed at my gender, by members of your gender.

No it is not nice being confronted with destructive behaviour of one’s own gender and by default being blamed for the behaviour of others.

But as a whole very few members of your gender have been brave enough to stand up against the tsunami of your genders misandry.

If you are really interested in supporting men, then you are the one who needs to rise above the criticisim direct at your gender and see it is a part of the path to bring about change.

Well done, Zed. I enjoy reading your posts. I am also familiar with Popeonoe’s study and reccomend it, along with other materials, to young men on the road to marriage or cohabitation.

I generall, I do not believe that any legislation will take place to level the field or help men. Women make up the majority of voters and hold too many powerfull positions in politics, culture, and business to let that happen.

I do not cry and whine about my failed marriage. What I do instead is inform the young men I know of the various disadvantages they face in the world of marriage and cohabitation. I also tell them of my own experiences as objectively as possible, prefacing my story with the fact that I am not a perfect human being.

Among the things I tell young men are what we here already know: That a woman, at any time, can have you unjustly thrown out of your own home with the unblinking assistance of the courts; that any woman, at any time, can unjustly accuse you of sexual harrassment and or rape and you will be considered guilty until proven innocent; that at any time during your marriage your wife can unilaterally file for a no-fault divorce, take your children away from you, plunder your assets, and leave you in penury – and that this happens all the time; that during a divorce, the sweetest, most innocent woman can and will become a mean spirited viper who will file false charges against you and use your children as a weapon, among other things, because she will be convinced to do so by lawyers and self-help groups; that, in general, career women are among the worst you can marry or cohabitate with because they will expect you to pay for everything while they hoard their own money or spend it on themselves; that they should not expect a woman to cook, clean, take care of their children without complaining, or do much around the house, as women are generally taught that motherhood and wifehood are worse than leprosy. (Funny how women keep wanting to get married, though. That kind of bifurcated reasoning should scare men enough.); that a lot of judges do not care about ‘short-term’ marriages, and will still award an undeserving ex-spouse half or more of your assets after even only a few years of marriage; that once you are married, the state becomes inelluctably involved in your financial affairs, and might remain so forever, whether or not your divorce; that prenuptial agreements are not ironclad, despite what their lawyer says, and many judges will work very hard to find a reason to give your ex-wife your money despite what anyone signed; that the assets they bring into their marriages are not as safe from plundering as they might think . . .

. . . etc, etc. This is all I can do. I tell them that I am sorry to burst their romantic bubble, but reality is reality, and I am not making it up. Sure, the woman they marry might be a dependable, caring, and fair-minded person, and might remain so through the worst of times. I certainly hope that they are. However, the divorce rate is at least 50% nation-wide, and in some states it is far worse than that. I wish them luck, point them to a few valuable resources so that they can make a more informed decision, and go about my business.

You speak of the supposed ‘shortage’ of men, Zed. I have read much on this as well. I find the whole idea laughable, as you must. Whenever I hear a woman complain of the shortage of men, I know what she means is that there is a shortage of men who make over 200,000 dollars a year who want to marry HER. (I live and work around NYC, so the dollar amounts are much higher here.) There are plenty of good, caring men who are teachers, cops, plumbers, auto mechanics, and what have you. They simply do not make enough money to satisfy today’s spoiled, urban women. What these normally 35 year old + women are REALLY whinning about is not being able to rope a plastic surgeon or investment banker because they’ve spent their prime fertile years partying, screwing bad-boys, or immersed in the careers they expected to drop like a hot stone after they have sugar-daddy’s babies (only to pick up these same careers once the kids are old enough for day-care).

I see hoards of these women plowing through the subway stations and streets of NYC every day. Their scowls are almost demon-like. They are miserable because, even though they were taught that they all deserve ‘meaningfull careers’ (the ret of us call them JOBS), they never expected to have to work for the rest of their lives out of neccesity. They all have that “You mean I might have to do this for the rest of my life!!?” look on their faces.

I of course have opted out altogether. Like you, Zed, I have cut down on my stress. I now earn half of what I used to, and am 100% happier. I do what I want, go where I want, and act according to the dictates of my own conscience. I own 90% less material things than when I was married, and feel a great sense of freedom. I plan on buying a motorcycle this Summer. I plan of finishing a full-sleeve tattoo this coming year. I can hang out with my friends. I can devote more time to my family, including my nieces. And I can do all of this without having to consult some ‘significant other’ whose primary goal is self-aggrandizement.

BTW – plenty of good guys have tattoos and ride motorcycles!

Thanks for the kind words, metalman and fourthwire. At the risk of sounding like part of a mutual admiration society, I have to say the same about your writing. The reason I don’t post much any more is because of guys like you who are already saying what I would say. Back in the mid-90s when the internet started to take off, there weren’t 2 dozen men on the whole net speaking out against the feminist-PC juggernaut. Today, there are that many on just about any board or blog I visit, and many of them are very good writers.

Yeah, I just have to shake my head and laugh about the whole “man shortage” nonsense. The wannabe princesses are all looking for “Prince” Charming while guys like Auto-mechanic Charming see a lot of nose hair.

A guy who goes by the handle of Remarksman did a great 4 part essay on the so-called “Man Shortage.” Here is how he starts out the 2nd part –

I wish I had a buck every time a raging single female in San Francisco told me, “There are no single men in The City. They’re all either gay, married or losers.” Now I knew lots of available single guys, including myself. So this mantra translated was: “I can’t attract the males I want, therefore I will subtly demean all of them, including you. That way my problem becomes your fault, and I get to unload my dumptruck of psychic crap on you. You, of course — being male — are prohibited from defending yourself. That’s why we have laws, you know.”

You can get to the first part here, and then just follow the links to the rest – http://menforjustice.net/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=49

Duncan Idaho, the Eternal Bachelor, shredded the tripe quite vigourously –
http://eternalbachelor.blogspot.com/2007/11/there-are-no-good-men-left.html

As remarksman pointed out, women who say these things are doing it with the intention of demeaning all men and dumping their psychic garbage on any poor sod who happens to be in the line of fire, and make it his problem. Duncan quite rightly turns it around and puts it back on the women telling them it is their problem.

I think the endgame is going to require men locking women into these ‘meaningfull careers’ they demanded and not giving the the exit of being able to “choose” to quit and become a full-time SAHM so that when she divorces him she can whine about this huge sacrifice she made in giving up this great career, and thus claim an even larger share of the marital assets. You know, the old “give them exactly what they ask for” gambit. Only a tiny percentage of men are in the earning category that these “modern” women demand anyway, so men best be about their lives while the princesses wait for their unicorn to show up.

I notice that the subject of this whole discussion has never shown up over here. Glenn is a bright guy and knows his audience, so I have to suspect he seeded it over here for the specific purpose of sparking the type of energetic discussion which it has.

In one respect, the very thing which Betsy is chafing over is exactly what we are talking about here – the wholesale bashing of the other sex. And, most men see women as doing a whole lot more of it than men do. What a lot of guys have talked about here without really nailing is the lack of a female countervoice to all the man-bashing. As someone said above (maybe you) “silence is assent.” For years I have been on women to provide that countervoice to feminist-PC drivel and speak out against the bashing and for men. Their silence seems to indicate that they agree with and endorse it. There certainly is never a shortage of men objecting when other men do it. Maybe putting Betsy on the hot seat of the receiving end of it will wake her up to how obnoxious it is to put up with, and how women who allow it to go on unchecked and unchallenged are hurting themselves and other women. It really isn’t going to serve women in general when men become so alienated from them that they can’t stand to even be around them, much less marry them.

Carey Roberts wrote a great essay on this topic, and it was posted right here on MND – http://mensnewsdaily.com/archive/r/roberts/2004/roberts032404.htm

I question the sincerity of anyone who claims to agree with us and support what we’re doing, while trying to weasel an apology out of us for imaginary slights. The vast majority of women in this country want a system that’s even more unfair to men than it already is, and we really have no reason to be polite in how we counter this irrationality.