Some Thoughts on Dr. Helen’s Piece ‘Should Alimony Die a Quick Death?’

2007-12-20
By

Dr. Helen has a new article out called “Should Alimony Die a Quick Death?” (Pajamas Media, 12/19/07). Dr. Helen writes:

“Personally, I have a hard time justifying long term alimony payments to men or women in today’s society. Years ago, when one spouse (typically women) was expected to stay home with the kids, tend the house and generally had no training or as many opportunities to make a living as women do today, I would say that alimony might have been more fair.

“However, in today’s world, in which women have fought for the right to equality, alimony seems more like a kid getting an allowance from daddy and I believe it should be abolished altogether except for extremely dire circumstances where a spouse is older, cannot work at all, and for only a short term period. No man or woman should be held to being a slave to an ex-spouse after a marriage ends.”

The concept of  “alimony as slavery” is common in the men’s and fathers’ movements, and it is valid, but only to a point.  Dr. Helen makes some good points above, but she goes further than I would.  I am not against the concept of alimony, I am against the abuse of it. 

When alimony is part of a “don’t get mad, get everything” type of post-divorce fleecing, I am opposed.  When it is done out of vindictiveness, as in the divorce attorneys’ anti-male ad pictured, I am opposed. When it is done because the law demands that a divorced man support his ex-wife at the standard of living to which she is accustomed, I am opposed, because I believe that this is an unfair and unrealistic burden.

That being said, however, I believe there are situations where alimony is called for.  Let’s say that Bob and Jane got married in 1995, and had three children.  The couple realized that it is very difficult for the children and for the family in general if both parents have demanding, go-all-out careers. In light of this, they decide that one of them will stay home, or will work part-time, or will do a job that is not as demanding or gives flexible time, so that someone is there for the children.

In the majority of cases, this will be the woman instead of the man, but the gender is irrelevant.  Over the subsequent period, Bob works 50 hour weeks and now has a career which earns him $120,000 a year.  Jane works 30 hours a week and is the primary caregiver for the children, and earns $25,000 a year.

Now it is 2008 and Bob and Jane are divorcing. (I will leave aside for the moment why they are getting divorced, issues surrounding no-fault divorce, etc.).   I believe that both Bob and Jane, absent a finding of parental unfitness, should have shared parenting and a relatively equal timeshare with their children.

I also think it is entirely appropriate for Bob to pay Jane both child support and alimony.  Not an extortionate amount, not an amount designed to punish him, not an attempt to preserve her living standard while impoverishing him, but a reasonable amount to take into consideration Bob’s vastly greater earning capacity.  This vastly greater earning capacity did not come about because Jane is lazy, or because Jane lacks talent.  It came about because her contributions to the household were different than Bob’s.

Dr. Helen’s full article can be seen here.

Help for Los Angeles/Ventura County Dads
Peter M. Walzer, Certified Family Law Specialist
www.California-Divorce.com
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  • spectre

    So what’s the amount Glenn?

    $20 a month?

    $2000 a month?

    An amount just short of extortion? … an amount just short of punishment? Perhaps, an amount leaving him enough to take the bus to work in the morning so he can go to work and pay her?

    And Bob’s earning capacity came about because of her contributions to the household? How do you figure?

    And does she now pay alimony to him so he can hire a cook and housekeeper now that she’s gone?

    What if Bob wants to quit his shitty, stressful, demanding job now that the marriage is over and the reason for his overworked schedule is now caput?

    Oh, he can’t quit and do something fun … because he’s a slave and must pay … alimony and child support. And you base it on earnings capacity … so he has to stay in his shitty job!

    And what’s her responsibility in all this … oh, she doesn’t have any.

  • Dittohd

    I not only agree, I think all persons should be guaranteed a minimum income by the government, if not paid the same. As in the case above, if a person is making only $25k and that is determined not to be enough for their situation, those making below the minimum should receive further income to match that minimum for that situation. We should not have such supplementation just during divorce. Everyone should benefit from this philosophy. After all why should one person receive only $25k and another $1M or $10M or more?

    And of course, the amount of income of a parent should never be considered when determining which parent gets custody of the children. Should joint custody do away with alimony? Of course not!

    Everyone should be equal.

  • Dittohd

    By the way, if a woman decides not to “work” and bring in income for the family by staying home with the children and receives the unmeasurable benefit of always being home with the kids as they grow up, how much should the woman compensate the man at divorce for sacrificing all this time with his children in order to make all or most of the money to support the family.

    Should only women be compensated for her “sacrifices”?

  • PolishKnight

    Dittohead hit, er, the nail on the head!

    Indeed, the woman is as usual judged as a victim of her own choices and preferences including to marry a man whose a high income provider and to reduce her work hours.

    If women don’t like the risk of sacrificing their precious career, they have the option to do what men do and have someone else stay at home with the kids while they fight rush hour traffic (both ways) and deal with the workforce. This is a perfect example of a woman getting it both ways (in a good way for them.)

    Even if we bought Glenn’s limited alimony concept and “shared parenting”, that’s kind of like telling hard core leftists that allowing the government to listen on their phone calls and email isn’t a big deal provided it’s not “abused.” If you roll out the red carpet and welcome mat, it makes it that much harder to keep unwanted guests from coming in…

    In addition, alimony and “child” support co-exists with a host of other programs to assist women who are UNMARRIED including welfare, affirmative action, and federally funded DV shelters. I mean, when is enough enough already? Oh, wait, the little ladies are now allowed to legally abandon their infants in most states lest they murder them.

    Women’s equality and chivalrous patronage: Other than all the negatives it’s brought along with the huge costs to sustain it, what has it done for society. Really? The siren call of “egalitarianism” is like the siren call of marxist “fairness” that causes people to overlook gulags and murder camps in the hopes that “next time, they’ll get it right.”

  • PolishKnight

    ONE more thing!

    It’s interesting that so many feminists such as Denise Noe and even men’s rights activitists look at protecting women from the consequences of sacrificing their careers or for legacy protections of traditional housewives before feminism became popular.

    To paraphrase Danny Devito in Other People’s Money:

    WHO CARES!?!?!

    Who cares about the working class men that were pushed aside as millions of young career women flooded the labor market? Who cares about the men who had to work longer hours to pay taxes and suffered from sexual harassment lawsuits (besides Bill Clinton?)

    NOBODY cared about them because “equal opportunity” in the workplace was some kind of holy mantra even as women had a whole bunch of golden parachutes that men rarely were able to take advantage of and came and went from it to stay at home (and THEN get alimony later in the event of a divorce.)

    Simply amazing. Same message goes for women who want to collect good ol’ fashioned alimony that went for the working class men that opposed equal opportunity for women: F*CK THEM!!! WELCOME TO THE WORLD OF MEN!!!

  • metalman

    When women have to start paying alimony, they’ll complain about it and it’ll go away. I see it lasting maybe another ten years. The courts will never, ever sanction the financial pillaging of women by men.

    Tom Leykis is right. Heaven forbid!!

  • steven deluca

    When I stayed home with my son, at 3 months, daughter later when she was three months, both for a few years as their primary caretaker I learned what many women already know – hey, it’s not that bad.

    I told my wife it wasn’t that bad. Then I realized that that’s not the way the mommy union plays it… you act like it’s just awful, so hard, “you men just don’t know!” (While they look at each other, wink wink, smirk smirk) Make men feel guilty for “making them” care for the children.

    And when they tire of taking care of the children they want to be back on the job with seniority added in as if they hadn’t left, as if they deserve as much as the men who toughted it out, learned a bit more, gave more of their lives to the company store… \\promotions, tell them you “sacrificed” in ways men never will – ignoring all the dangerous and boring jobs men have that women don’t want – I knew my wife was missing out while she worked full-time and worked on her masters full-time. I would tell her the cool things that the kids were learning … but to see them learning to walk, talk, recognize things is far, far more than hearing about it. I never said “HERE, it’s your turn!!!” as if the day was one big horror show that a woman would just never understand.

    She provided most of the income and provided me with the experience. I feel I still owe her for that time because you can always find a few years to work and make money, but there are only a very few years when the children are so young. It’s a pretty damn good world where you have the options women have, compared to men, and then get to trash men at the same time pretending only your gender sacrifices.

    My X, my kid’s mom, can never experience what I did, it’s too late for that. We split long ago and I am sure that she thinks back and wishes she had those years at home, with me working to support her. And when I die that experience will be one of the best in my life.

    Alimony – how cute. She tried to get money from me when I remarried a woman with decent income. She thought her income added to mine was something the courts would dip into and give to her. Her lawyer came after me for child support. At some point someone explained “Hey, you earn more – got your masters – a good job, seniority” AND he has the kids half time, so you might end up paying him child support … she asked me to drop it after she started it. I dropped it. Men don’t want child support or alimony from women, generally speaking. We would rather live on less and do it ourselves. WE don’t have songs like women do: “Sistahs, makin it on our own” we just make it on our own.

    Helen Redding was it singing “I’m a woman … ” and in the song she lists all the ways she kicks ass as a woman … but in real life she wanted her husband to pay alimony (I am not sure of the details on that, don’t quote me, might be an old husbands tale)

    Alimony… hummm even if you had three kids a couple of years apart (more than that – suffer the conseqences of over populating the earth) in ten years or so they are all in school much of the day, and a few years after that they are quite able to care for themselves. So, women live until 80, 12 years are taken up with kids who need the care those few years… they have decades to get a career together … so what’s up with expecting a man to pay alimony for more than a couple of years while they find a new gig?

    The world of work for men is “make it or die” and that scene ends up with a couple of million losers and a couple of million winners. Women want the winners and the guys in the middle to pay their way, to support women’s needs and options. Yet men who lost custody of children, or get charged with false DV issues, or are denied child support, or who die young, it’s tough shit. Women trash the men who don’t perform will regarding money, calling them losers, yet womenb who don’t do well are assumed to have been held back.

    I had some sympathy for more women in various phases of life, once. Today, after decades of watching men get trashed by the media, the courts and the schools, after years and years of watching men get walked on, when it comes to most women today, I say “let them eat cake” smile

    SD

  • amfortas

    Glenn, as do many men, tries hard to be ‘fair’, bending over backwards to find all the reasons and rationalisastions for the continuation of 20thC means of addressing sexually politicised 19thC ills. But we are in C21.

    Just what conception of ‘equality’ is it that is scupulously ‘fair’ in its consideration of one party but blithely ignores the sacrifices and daily traumas of the other? What conception ignores the responsibility of a person for their choices, patricularly when those choices, manipulatively, ensure that the chooser gets the easier life?

    And be assured, the stay at home mother, even with a brace of sqawking little ones has a far easier life than the one who subjects himself to the daily indignities and dramas of the workforce. The stay at home mum does not have ‘ze Zupervisor’ leaning over her shoulder critically monitoring her work, seeking an excuse to ‘downsize ‘ her. Her ‘deadlines’ are all self-assessed. Her task paths are all self-determined. She, at home, consumes the resources that he has to gain, competetively, daily. And it is fatuous to suggest, as it is so often, that men are ‘competetive’ and therefore in their natural element.

    When the decisions were jointly taken as to who stays at home with the children and who goes out to work – for those children and the other party – the situation was very different from that pertaining later when one party unilaterally decides to ‘better’ her lot. The one party who ‘sacrificed’ her career option while the other party ‘sacrificed’ his child rearing option, demands to be ‘compensated’ by alimony, while he gets no such compensation for all that he has lost.

    So she has ‘lost’ ground and skill and opportunities past, and is ‘behind’ in the career stakes. But the future opportunities exist. He on the other hand has no likelihood of ever having an opportunity to raise his children. There is no future opportunity for that. They are already grown and there is no going back.

    When women can say “Honey, I shrank the kids” and hand him the oppotunity to do some child raising, at home, supported by her daily sacrifice to the indignities, pressures, traumas and insecurities of a ‘career’, for an equal length of time, then she may have a case for complaint. Until then it is a screeching demand for privilege.

    Glenn will keep bending until he falls over and I for one will not cheer. Glenn is a good man. But wrong in this instance.

  • fourthwire

    Metalman is correct – Tom Leykis already called this one. Alimony WILL end when enough women are forced to pay alimony…. and not until then.

    Too many feminazis, too many misguided chivalrists, and above all, too many entitlement princesses expecting to be paid for the act of convincing some sucker to marry them.

    Alimony laws subjected men to financial slavery to the point where it’s a credible force in the destruction of marriage in America.

    And Amfortas is correct (and as usual he’s more polite than I!) about Glenn being wrong about this point.

    Glenn, for all of the good that he does for men’s rights, is FAR too ready to kowtow to women’s interests, and this time is no exception.

    There’s a reason why I refer to “alimony” as “vaginamony” – it’s to reinforce the fact that it consists of payments to women for past use of their vagina.

    And while men are REQUIRED to make those vaginamony payments for past sexual services rendered, women are not obligated to perform any services in return………

    ….. and that’s how American women have priced themselves out of the market.

    No vagina is worth paying for past services rendered.

    Sorry, Glenn. Grow some balls, please.

  • spectre

    Many here have raised good points. But, to be fair to Glenn he provides a specific scenario and comes up with his resolution.

    I believe alimony may indeed be proper and fitting in some cases. here’s an extereme example:

    “Man and wife married for 30 years, have 12 grown kids now all out of the house. Wife stayed home and primarily cared for the dozen rugrats and never developed her job skills. Now both age 58, the kids grown, they decide to divorce. Marital assets paltry. Wife has limited job skills, husband makes $550,000/yr.”

    Here I have no problem with alimony.

    Ok now, lets put aside the history of alimony abuse and entitlements and let’s just look at the hypothetical Glenn posed in a vacuum.

    Is alimony warranted? Is child support warranted?

    Glenn doesn’t say why to either or give a numerical figure. He just says due to income dispartity … an amount not extortionate. He needs to supply figures. He also ignores any responsibility, if any, the ex-wife has in the matter.

  • David R. Usher

    I have to agree with Dr. Helen.

    Years ago, feminists found out that lots of judges won’t order alimony. So they took a lot of items that used to be considered alimony and moved them into child support. Child support now includes a share of the house payment, automobiles, and many other items.

    This being the case, alimony is a duplicitous institution that should be ended except in perhaps the most egregious situations.

    And secondly, I do not buy into flat-earth socialism or the cavalier California attitude about divorce. If a woman wants the benefits of marriage, she should work on her marriage and stay married. If a man wants the benefits of marriage, he should work on the marriage and stay married. To continue the feminist model of entitling everything except marriage, at the expense of marriage, is to continue destroying the very institution that has been known throughout recorded history to produce the best outcomes for men, women, and children.

  • David R. Usher

    Glenn,

    Your example suggests a primary custody order to the mother, with alimony, not a shared parenting order. Your view is precisely what the majority of judges do, and we don’t like it.

    Shared parenting should be ordered in all cases except where a parent if found to be unfit, or where a parent is unwilling to accept it. Alimony (which is NOT child support) has no connection to the parenting order!

    Glenn — what your your true advocacy goals are here? In the past two weeks you have excoriated the religious right (our strongest supporters), lobbied strongly for gay marriage, and now you are suggesting essentially no change to either custody or alimony orders. Opposing “abuse” of alimony orders is not something that can be written into law tightly — so it is a straw objection.

    Glenn, the more I read your columns, you are just playing both ends off the middle, while working to maintain status quo on existing feminist policy while advancing key contemporary feminist goals. You are not the only male feminist playing this game — but are perhaps the most visible.

  • spectre

    David,

    Glenn did say that the couple should have “shared parenting” so your assertion that Glenn suggested wifey gets custody is baseless. However, your argument that Glenn is merely only oppposing “abuse” of alimony laws is spot on.

    Furthermore, upon re-reading Glenn’s article it appears that Glenn is basing the award of alimony solely to income discrepancy … no basis in need or special circumstance … merely discrepancy in income.

    That’s pure socialism … a redistribution of wealth. A husband must pay alimony simply because he earns more?

    Glenn, David’s been a bit rough on you lately … but you do seem to be writing articles designed to appear reasonable and to make friends with gender feminists.

    Wendy McElroy may be blessed friend … Marcotte is not.

    Know who your friends are … and who are not.

  • spectre

    Does Glenn ever respond to comments here on his articles?

  • http://www.false-accusers.com TheManOnTheStreet

    I guess I am not alone thinking that this Glenn, as of late, is not the ‘His Side’ Glenn Sacks that I so enjoyed…. What happened?

    TMOTS

  • metalman

    I appreciate Glenn’s efforts to come up with a solution to a particluar instance, but I’m afraid that’s generally not how things work in the legal system. Once lawyers get a hold of something, they stretch it to the limits of whoredom. When one lawyer got his female client acquitted based on the ‘she-was-menstruating-and therefore -insane’ theory, all the lawyers jumped on board. The result? Women are now allowed to commit murder.

  • KRS

    “…This vastly greater earning capacity did not come about because Jane is lazy, or because Jane lacks talent. It came about because her contributions to the household were different than Bob’s….”

    No, this vastly greater earning capacity came about because Bob prepared himself for life, whereas Jane didn’t. Bob would have earned $120,000 a year regardless of whether he was married to Jane or not. Jane had absolutely nothing to do with Bob being able to earn $120,000 a year. Since they are now divorcing, the much mroe likely scenario is that she probably hen-pecked the hell out of him and caused him so much emotional distress at home that he is earning less than what he otherwise could have.

    And now through ever-more-creative forms of gender apartheid, such as Illinois’ “permenant maintenance (alimony)”, Jane gets to stick it to Bob for the rest of his life, while simultaneously making him pay for the privilege of getting kicked out of his own house and having her take his kids away from him.

  • conservativation

    I pop in time to time, and a few weeks ago I realized that Sacks had been sacked. Well, somebody better dial 911 cause he has not gotten up yet!

    This is getting worse and worse. The “stuff” Glenn mentions that “needs” to be addressed is addressed in child support. “Mommy’s Mercedes had do go into default and she now drives Yugo honey, but don’t worry daddy is gonna be paying mommy something called alimony, and I’m Eye’in that bright red SLK over there sweety”.

    Next time child is with Dad he says, “Daddy, Mommy said you had to pay her “Allthemoney” so she could buy a red car. You could get her a cool Pinto like yours daddy”.

  • Dittohd

    Hi Spectre,

    >Marital assets paltry. Wife has limited job skills, husband makes $550,000/yr.

    Wow! You had to really stretch things to make a point. The guy is making $550k per year and they have no marital assets? Come on!

    And if they really don’t have any marital assets, whose fault is that? It has to be better than 50% hers if she stayed at home. Statistics say that women are far and away responsible for most of the spending in this country. If “they” have no assets, it’s probably because she has them all in furniture and jewelry and whatever else she’s desired throughout the years. If he’s making $550k per year, he sure doesn’t have a whole lot of time to be spending all that

    At her age, she has the brains to support herself. And it doesn’t have to be at the level to which she has become accustomed.

    One more comment to Glenn:

    >I also think it is entirely appropriate for Bob to pay Jane both child support and alimony. Not an extortionate amount, not an amount designed to punish him, not an attempt to preserve her living standard while impoverishing him, but a reasonable amount to take into consideration Bob’s vastly greater earning capacity.

    And who’s going to decide what that “fair” amount will be. The same people who told P.Ditty that he had to pay his woman $8700 per month child support for one child?

    The only way to properly fix the problem is to throw the whole alimony and child support welfare program into the garbage. Can anyone say that judges these days can anymore be relied upon to be fair and reasonable?

  • http://mgtow.net zed

    David R. Usher said,

    “If a woman wants the benefits of marriage, she should work on her marriage and stay married. If a man wants the benefits of marriage, he should work on the marriage and stay married. “

    And there is the “no nonsense” bottom line, as Marc Rudov would put it.

    Few people get to quit a job and continue to receive compensation as though they were continuing to work at it. True “no-fault” divorce in a unilateral situation where one spouse wants to leave and the other wants to maintain the marriage would be workable and even palatable if the leaving spouse left with the clothes on their back and forfeited all marital assets, including the children, to the remaining partner.

    The example given of “acceptable” conditions for alimony is quite disingenuous and perpetuates a large number of feminist stereotypes. Only 7% of all people (male or female) earn more than $100,000/year, and only 6% of all households have Bob & Jane’s combined level of income. This “wealthy man dumping his reliable and faithful wife for a younger model” is pure soap-opera BS. The chances are 2:1 that it will be Jane dumping Bob, not vice versa, so the scenario painted here is applicable to around 2% of all cases – a dangerously small sample to be basing social policy upon.

    Once again, we are getting fed a complete stereotype, and looking at only a very small group of the top tier of men and taking that as the norm – in the same way that “most CEOs are men” is used to prove discrimination against women, ignoring the fact that most men are not CEOs either.

    All these arguments and positions are extremely elitist and completely ignore the realities of the lives of the vast majority of men. They also paint a picture which is 4 decades out of date. A significant number of wives now make more than their husbands, and the perpetual hoax of “wage parity” assures that women will continue to get preferential treatment in hiring and promotion decisions for some time to come. I recently saw research that in some areas women earn 117% of what similarly situated men do. Having been beaten to death with the mindless slogan of “e-kwhul pay fer e-kwuhl werk” for the past 40 years, I am sick to death of it. I have always maintained that women will achieve true “wage parity” only when “lack-of-choice parity” has been enforced for some time.

    Women are either the equals of men and capable of doing and enduring everything men can, or they aren’t. What we have today is a mish-mash of social values and conditions where women have the “choice” to be equal when they want to be (which is generally when rewards are being talked about) and demanding special treatment when they want (which is also generally when rewards are somewhere in the picture). That has led to the development of an entitlement mentality which is offensive and disgusting to an ever-increasing number of men and which has led directly to many of those men simply saying “no” to marriage. The situation is made even worse by mis-guided residual chivalry on the part of a great many men.

    In the stock market there is a “stop loss” mechanism. Until something similar is implemented for men when it comes to marriage, few and fewer men are going to play.

  • Dittohd

    Sorry, one more thing.

    I think there should be an overriding law that says that no American woman can receive money in any form from more than one man at the same time. To do so is polygamy.

    And by the way, if in actuality women are really married to Uncle Sam from birth (by actions – of course there’s no marriage certificate), isn’t every other marriage to any other man after that polygamy?

  • David R. Usher

    Sacks’s example describes a mother who more or less quits work to be the “primary parent”. The father continues to work full time to pay her to do this. this is NOT a shared parenting order. For Glenn to suggest both is an impossible conundrum.

    It is quite possible for any parent to work full time and be a single parent. Folks do it all the time. Of course, this is a lot easier if the parent remarries, which is much more likely to happen (for men) if 40% of his paycheck isn’t removed (women are not interested in cash-strapped men). This is why Sack’s example is way out of line with reality.

    Marriage movement policy says that the emphasis is on shared parenting, the financial transfers minumized, so as to make men remarriageable and to encourage women to remarry. This is not a punishment. It is to remove the tremendous disincentives to remarry that go with huge child support and alimony orders. This is the real abuse that goes on in all divorces today — which Glenn tiptoes around as if most child support and alimony orders are actually reasonable as currently ordered.

    Under shared parenting, the both parents would have about half the time with the children, and share the responsibilities.

    In fact, I once knew two columnists at the Post Dispatch, who divorced, and continued to both earn their living sharing the column space. that way they both worked and had time to be parents.

  • David R. Usher

    You will also notice the Glenn nominated the mother to be the primary parent. Please note he did not say this is what the father wants and agreed to — it is the way he thinks things should be ordered. I know a lot of barnyard family court judges who feel exactly the same way. Now do you understand what’s wrong here?

  • PolishKnight

    I don’t know if anyone is still reading this thread, but an additional point popped into my head:

    As Dittohd pointed out, it’s rather wierd to think that a husband could earn $550Kpy and not have any assets for the woman to sell and use to support herself in addition to GETTING A JOB.

    As Eddie Murphy pointed out almost 20 years ago, a high income situation such as this is like Johnnie Carson whose wife NEVER had to wash a dish during the marriage or making any other “sacrifice”. She played tennis all day and ordered servants around. Wherez the sacrifice in this instance? Most alimony goes to women who never needed, or earned it. It’s just maintenance.






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