‘Why are men so scared to admit that they have a responsibility when it comes to sex’?

Casual sex

I don’t buy into the notion that it’s the man being irresponsible for having sex and a woman “getting” pregnant. She wasn’t watching PBS at the time either, you know!

On the contrary: It’s a big red-herring to put all the blame on the man for the woman “getting” pregnant and then deciding to have, and keep, the baby (unless she legally abandons it, of course.)

As foolish as it is for a man to have unprotected sex, it’s not the same as him squeezing babies out of his penis. Women having children out of wedlock and then demanding the state run to their aid is on a whole other level.

And even then, many men don’t have unprotected sex on a whim. They are often reassured by the women that she’s using oral contraceptives or there are condom failures. Accidents happen.

The situation today is that men, who are treated like second class citizens, have “zero tolerance” birth control: If he makes a mistake, he’s screwed while women, on the other hands, can act like drunk sailors and get bailed out the whole way and not just due to raw biology. They can even literally abandon babies legally.

Therefore, a “responsible” man has to regard women as morally bankrupt and untrustworthy. Sadly, this is now often the case in our society where women really do regard men, and children, as objects to be exploited. Caveat Emptor!

That said, how men who understand this AND believe that women should be treated as equals is beyond me. We can’t “Fix” out way out of this. We have dig down to fundamentals and back to the origins of the roles of men and women. Men cannot be providers and supporters of society while women have all the choices. This is madness.

Can you say transference?

Glenn – As usual, I agree with what you say, but I think it’s a little more nuanced than you let on.

Men have two methods of contraception available to us, abstinence and condoms. Abstinence is not high on most people’s list of preferred methods, so it really comes down to condoms. So what do you do when you’re about to have sex with a woman who says “don’t worry, I’m on the pill?” If you insist on using the condom it suggests (a) you have an STD, (b) you think she has an STD or (c) you don’t believe her when she says she’s on the pill. None of those is a very satisfactory position to put yourself in, so just saying “take responsibility” for birth control is a little more complicated than that.

the biggest tragedy is the loss of trust when you realize that you’ve been setup and duped. you wonder how and why somebody would ever do something like that. these feelings of loss of trust can (apparently) last a life time.

So what do you do when you’re about to have sex with a woman who says “don’t worry, I’m on the pill?” If you insist on using the condom it suggests (a) you have an STD, (b) you think she has an STD or (c) you don’t believe her when she says she’s on the pill. None of those is a very satisfactory position to put yourself in, so just saying “take responsibility” for birth control is a little more complicated than that.

As I said, the current climate men are subjected to tells them that they’re saps if they regard women as worthy of trust at any level.

There’s also option (d) which is: You don’t believe the pill is trustworthy. In addition to the condom, many men aren’t aware of spermicides which are uncomfortable in a different way (the gel forms a foam in the vagina which is uncomfortable as hell when it gets in your urethtra. Imagine getting lemon juice in there! Ouch!) But even so, it’s very usable as additional/backup B.C.

Also, there’s another option which is to keep B.C. pills on hand (if you have a sister or previous girlfriend,she can give you some.) Check out:

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:rq19f_GV6OAJ:www.fwhc.org/birth-control/ecinfo.htm+morning+after+birth+control+pills&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

Rule of thumb is about 5 “pink” pills the morning after a contraceptive accident (72 hours) is sufficient.

I wish Sacks would include a link and the name of the feminist blogger if he’s going to respond to he/she/it (and I don’t know why he’s even bothering to). The quote given is ridiculous, but let’s see it in context– especially if the context makes the quote even more laughable.

That said, given the current environment of false abuse accusations and child support extortion I find it amazing that anybody would accuse men of “being afraid to admit having a responsibility.”

Thanks for this post Glenn – and you work in this area.

Additional two cents. How does society train boys and girls in this area? Well over time they are taught that Girls (and Women ) are the gatekeepers of morality and justice and that boys (and Men) are irresponsible dupes just out for fun. Well guess what: first off neither is true, and secondly it clearly sets many men up for an issue. When society starts recognizing the rights of both Boys (Men) and Girls (Women) equally – this whole issue will become minor. For example, if men had an equal choice in an unexpected pregnancy, and equal options (men’s pill) before pregnancy then pregnancy would be a joint decision with both parents fully understanding their rights and obligations.

Additionally most boys (and Men) have no clue as to how society will treat them after they become a father – they need education on this and they need it badly – but we are too busy funding ‘women’s study programs’ and ‘Kindergarten Doll Housekeeping.”

Hi Glen,
I disagree with you and I imagine you will disagree with me.
(I actually tend to agree with you on about 80% of things, but even when I don’t like some of your tactical moves, I do tend to agree with your overall strategy and my apolgies for being so long winded, I am not sure of the rules here so I hope I am not breaking any by writing such a big text)

I would have responded to the feminist that time have changed and that we are in the 21st century. The idea of shotgun weddings should die a quick death, even in its slightly more modern form of a paternity suit.

1) My view is that man do not have any responsibilities unless the decision is a mutual one between the man and woman.

I know this goes against some of what MRA want and father groups often fight for (e.g. some fathers group and MRA want the to have the right to stop their biological child from being given for adoption even if they have not acted in “in loco parentis” and were not aware of the existence of the child until the adoption proceeding) I do not believe that this is a winnable, and in the true interest of men or women in general. IMHO this type of right will only benefit a few men, but not men in general. I do feel for the men that would end up on the sort end of the stick with my beliefs, however, I still believe that it would benefit most.

2) My view that men have no right when it comes to sex is actually consistent with what most feminists mainstream society is saying about men’s role in society, and even most of the laws (save the shotgun wedding replacement).

I heard the feminist and women’s message loud and clear. Women don’t need a man to raise a child. I am also sure that any boy, teenage boy, or grown man has head that one. So what I would have said to that feminist is that I got the message. You don’t need men, fine, you don’t need our money and support either you can do it all yourself. Asking for money from a man, “IS” needing a man.

Women do not need man to raise a child, I got the message, England has formally removed the requirement that there be a father for women to have IVF treatment. Yes, I got the message no male required.

Single mother by choice is a thing to be applauded, yes, I got the message. (on that one, I must admit, my thinking is more like Chris Rock on that matter, but you could say I have been beaten in submission on this one, but I am willing to loose that battle to win the war)

Women do not need men to realize a child, and the law fully support it. A man has no paternity rights according to the law and no responsibility unless the women puts his name on the birth certificate. (of course if she did not do that, she can used the modern shotgun wedding where she gains access to the man’s resource by issuing a paternity suit). Of course a man can be given parental right to kids that are not his if he acted in loco parentis, but again this at the women’s whim and usually means that the men will pay child support since right usually come with responsibilities.

IMHO, society has gone out of the way to tell men that they are not important (except for cash) and I got the message.

3) The shotgun wedding should be abolish once and for all.
We are in the 21st century, and as the pregnancy commercial says, there is such a thing as being a little bit pregnant. Times have changed, pregnancy no longer means having a baby or carrying a baby to terms. We live in a culture where 1 in 5 pregnancies end in abortion.
Here are the Canadian numbers (I imagine the states is within the same ballpark)
total pregnancies – http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/hlth65a.htm
Total abortions – http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/hlth65a.htm

These number of course do not include plan B (the morning after pill)

So yes, the shotgun wedding might have appeared fair in the old days where there were no choice when a woman got pregnant but in the 21st century about 1 in 5 women exercise that choice. In Canada that means about 100 000 for about 400 000 births.

4) Four words:
- MY BODY
- MY CHOICE
I am sure your feminist commenter knows and agree with this one, however, what she seems to really want to say is the following.
- MY BODY
- MY CHOICE, oops, you mean I have to pay !
- OUR SHARED RESPONSIBILITY.

In closing I would leave the feminist commenter with words of wisdom from a feminist (I know how crazy this sounds but you quoted this one yourself so I am going to do the same here).

Karen DeCrow, former president of the National Organization for Women, writes:

“If a woman makes a unilateral decision to bring a pregnancy to term, and the biological father does not, and cannot, share in this decision, he should not be liable for 21 years of support … autonomous women making independent decisions about their lives should not expect men to finance their choice.”

Regards
MasterWindu

You are strong and wise, MasterWindu.

feminist question????

Then the question is why are men (like Sacks) so scared to admit that they have a responsibility when it comes to sex?

MCA response, why are we answering her questions, when by all the indicators I’m seeing, she should be answering ours???

yes masterwindu strong, brave, wise,
do you have a web site???

“If a woman makes a unilateral decision to bring a pregnancy to term, and the biological father does not, and cannot, share in this decision, he should not be liable for 21 years of support … autonomous women making independent decisions about their lives should not expect men to finance their choice.”

Wow ,that would be a heresy as far as NOW is concerned and all fembots would head for Washington to inform the uninitiated that this is totally unacceptable. How else would women support there own decisions if men were not around to subsidize their plainly selfish behaviour ?

“If a woman makes a unilateral decision to bring a pregnancy to term, and the biological father does not, and cannot, share in this decision, he should not be liable for 21 years of support … autonomous women making independent decisions about their lives should not expect men to finance their choice.”

You see, this quotation is from the period (late 60s, early 70s) when women and men marched together for a thing called equality. That was the ticket in those days. Karen DeCrow nailed it perfectly. While she was once President of N.O.W. (national) she chould not possibly hold this position today and speak the same, perfectly logical and reasonable, truth.

Herein lies the problem.

College Activist (#10) has the right idea, (“feminist question????”) and one could go further.

I do hope Glenn (and I agree with what you say) that you took her to task for the mendacity of her question. It is so easy – and so Feminist – to pose straw-men questions which are based on misandric assumptions that blame men for an imagined ill, and expect us men to engage in refutation of the ridiculous.

Every answer to such women should be accompanied by a verbal smack in the mouth. Women seem to approve of smacks to the face. The mouth needs just a little more precision.

What you need to understand, Glenn, is that when it comes to an unobtrusive and reliable method of Male Birth Control, that this is a thing that scares many women and feminists, spitless.

This kind of passive-aggressive pooh-poohing of it are just the opening salvos in what will become a war on it as it gets closer to reality.

Watch the goalposts for “safe” and “effective” be moved.

Watch the foes of this throw as many obstacles in the way to make it expensive and out of reach for the average guy.

Watch a whispering campaign of “impotence” and “sterility” be used against it.

Watch hysterics about men using it “to deprive women of motherhood;” and in that vein, look for at least speculation on laws about requiring notification and consent.

And as a corollary to that last, the arguments are already being formulated that since a woman carries the child, her right to reproductive privacy and discretion is “different.”

I have already heard it noised about that if MBC comes to pass, and a man uses it and “deprives” his S.O. of “motherhood” that he should be liable for a civil tort. Fancy that. Child support without a child.

No – the idea that men might be able to exercise a quiet and meaningful “No,” a veto over parenthood, both angers these women and makes the whizz down their legs.

I have in the past , only half jokingly suggested that a man or any male, do an FBI background check on the women he intends to sleep with. Check to see if she has had any abortions, has abandoned or given up for adoption any child(ren) or has been a “gold digger” or not?
The “Mans Pill” will come to pass, the drug companies have more money and influence than the feminist do. We will have to work out the bugs and make sure it is safe and reliable.. The really funny part to all this is that current research says that the options for male birth control will outnumber the options for women. The women will have the pill, men will have that plus a number of other equally effective options.
I would guess that this does indeed scare the hell out of the feminist. A man making a decision not to have a child, because he does not want to be a father yet or at all ! That the women , he is “doing the Horizontal Hokee Pokee” with, is good for sex, but gets failing marks in the parent dept. She does not like that men just want to sleep with her but won’t have children with her. If this was done the power base for the feminist and the GiSKERS( government sponsored kidnapping and extortion racket) would dry up and blow away. Why those people might have to get a real job and if there is any justice in the world, hell they might even be prosecuted for the evil they done. Women would have to “grow up” socially.legally and morally, women would have to make themselves attractive to men again, show the prospective husband and father, that they are not the bitchs mens should fear. That they will not wreck the family, steal the kids and wreck the mans life. That they will be good wives,mothers and partners.
Now I not against equality,I just have moral requirement that ” equality” be just that! That I and any other man, not be subjected to a form of state sponsored slavery. That if any woman , hollers about me being responsible, I say fine, as long as I have rights to go along with those responsibilities they want me to take. That I am protected from the malicious intent of my government servants, they obey the limits of the law and respect my rights. That they can be held accountable if they do not!
This is going to happen, its not if…… it is when!

Feminists like to start a debate with men by accusing them of being “Scared” “Whiners” “Woman haters” and such. Little bomblets to drop on the men before the topic is addressed. We don’t think “real men” are scared or whine so most men (the weak) panic when such words are used toward them and they start defending. It’s a form of verbal castration that goads some men into shutting up, and others into a sputtering defense. By 2008 we men should know better than to get sucked in.

I suggest that if women question anything about MR types with an insult we simply don’t bother to enter into a discussion with them and we put that out to the world. Too often such insults are a form of the old vaudville joke “Have you stopped beating your wife?” Yes or no, both are answers make the man look guilty.

As long as we allow feminist to put us on the defensive we will sound defense and possibly guilty. The discussion about male birth control would be as well done with out responding to those who still want to use terms that they believe men fear to get men to retreat, or to take their accusations seriously.

Once we were told 99 % of DV came from men. Men felt guilty and acted as if, well, hey, not most of us, hey maybe it’s really only 97% or even 85% and we whittle away to get the number down from 99% … if dealing with a car sales you don’t whittle away from the price that the sales guy starts with, you say what you are willing to pay and walk away. When they said 99% we engaged them and worked it down a few points at a time while the readers thought, if feminist say this and men’s rights say that, maybe it’s somewhere in the middle. They get tons of press when they make the claims and more press when we use their words to start the discussion. We should have laughed at them, called them lying bitches for demeaning men so… and walked away. Then later, when writing about DV, don’t reinforce their message while knowing most men and women side with women in an argument between a man and a woman, just write about the topic, tell the truth and don’t include propoganda from feminists.

If they are not willing, say in regards to DV, to start with scientific and obective studies, don’t talk to them. Don’t put their words into the minds of young listeners who will think, where there is smoke there must be fire.

Same thing with this topic The Karen Decrow quote is where the topic could have started and the “scared little whiner” that we read about shouldn’t be on the page at all much less opening the discussion. I called her a scared little whiner because – she must be worried/scared, to take the time to whine about Glenn Sacks. if she is reading Sacks and responding to him you know she is angry and likely fearful that others might take his work seriously. As far as I am concerned she can stay out of the room and not add to the confusion until she has something serious to add to the conversation without insults first. She is the one that is scared that people like Sacks are making progress and forcing feminist to get real.

I’m going to swim against the current here and predict that the MBC pill won’t be the silver bullet many commenters present want it to be.

Yes, more men will be able to dodge the bullet of involuntary parenthood–er, responsibility–that is unconstitutionally denied to us while being granted to women.

But this affects only a small portion of men. The vast majority will still be caught in the net of “responsibility”, yoked to an 18-year term of involuntary labor for the crime of allowing his woman to be unhappy.

And don’t forget that men, who make up the majority of taxpayers, will still be required to subsidize women’s illegitimate spawn through government social welfare programs aimed specifically at and limited to women. So, guys, you’ll be paying for women’s reproductive prerogatives one way or the other, directly or indirectly.

So the bottom line is that, while the MBC pill will spare a small fraction of men, the remainder of us will still be held responsible in some way or another to underwrite women’s choices.

Scary to feminists? No, not really. Want to really scare them? Get C4M implemented, and watch the screaming start. Real, actual responsibility for one’s choices is what feminists fear.

And don’t forget that men, who make up the majority of taxpayers, will still be required to subsidize women’s illegitimate spawn through government social welfare programs aimed specifically at and limited to women. So, guys, you’ll be paying for women’s reproductive prerogatives one way or the other, directly or indirectly.

Bill Clinton signed off on welfare reform which transferred direct political responsibility for _poor_ unwed mothers to (mostly) poor men. In addition, feminists have gone to a great deal of trouble to create language to justify abortion rights through “bodily autonomy”.

Trying to punish men for using legal BC options on their body would undermine them even further and probably wouldn’t work. They would need to create a legal entitlement for “accidental” pregnancy. It’s kind of like burglars suing homeowners for having a burglar alarm _and_ NOT having a dog to bite them so their attorney can sue them.

The welfare state in the USA has been designed to benefit poor women and been undermined by the child-support system. If men squeeze out of that, then things will get interesting. Will childless career women and aging women senior citizens want to fund unwed-motherood-by-choice for other women? They’ve clearly indicated they don’t want to!