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Darwin’s Failed Predictions, Slide 3: “The role of natural selection in evolution is controversial among scientists”

2008-01-03
By

[Editor's Note: This article shows slide 3 in a series of 14 slides available at JudgingPBS.com, a new website featuring "Darwin's Failed Predictions," a response to PBS-NOVA's online materials for their "Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial" documentary.]

As noted in the Introduction, PBS asserts that the data “unequivocally” support the view that “[e]volution happens through natural selection.” In this dogmatic statement, PBS has again failed to clearly define “evolution.” If by “evolution,” PBS means that we can observe small-scale changes within species, then no one doubts that natural selection plays a role. But in fact, many scientists have questioned whether natural selection acting upon random mutation is sufficient to generate new species or new complex biological features. As evolutionary scientist Robert L. Carroll queries:

“Can changes in individual characters, such as the relative frequency of genes for light and dark wing color in moths adapting to industrial pollution, simply be multiplied over time to account for the origin of moths and butterflies within insects, the origin of insects from primitive arthropods, or the origin of arthropods from among primitive multicellular organisms? How can we explain the gradual evolution of entirely new structures, like the wings of bats, birds, and butterflies, when the function of a partially evolved wing is almost impossible to conceive?”1

Leading biologist Lynn Margulis, who opposes ID, also criticizes the standard Darwinian mechanism by stating that the “Darwinian claim to explain all of evolution is a popular half-truth whose lack of explicative power is compensated for only by the religious ferocity of its rhetoric.”2 She further observes that “new mutations don’t create new species; they create offspring that are impaired.”3

Stanley Salthe, author of an evolutionary biology textbook, proclaims, “I have become an apostate from Darwinian theory and have described it as part of modernism’s origination myth.”4 Evolutionary philosopher Jerry Fodor recently wrote that “at a time when the theory of natural selection has become an article of pop culture, it is faced with what may be the most serious challenge it has had so far.”5 National Academy of Sciences member Phil Skell also questions the explanatory utility of natural selection:

Natural selection makes humans self-centered and aggressive – except when it makes them altruistic and peaceable. Or natural selection produces virile men who eagerly spread their seed – except when it prefers men who are faithful protectors and providers. When an explanation is so supple that it can explain any behavior, it is difficult to test it experimentally, much less use it as a catalyst for scientific discovery. Darwinian evolution – whatever its other virtues – does not provide a fruitful heuristic in experimental biology.6

Indeed, over 700 doctoral scientists have signed a public statement proclaiming their agreement that, “We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life.”7 Yet PBS presents natural selection as the “unequivocally” accepted mechanism of evolution. Clearly there are significant scientific voices who dissent from the Darwinian view. Unfortunately, their voices are left out of PBS’s one-sided discussion of evolution.

References Cited:
1. Robert Carroll, Patterns and Processes of Vertebrate Evolution, page 9 (Cambridge University Press, 1997).
2. Lynn Margulis & Dorion Sagan, Acquiring Genomes: A Theory of the Origins of the Species, page 29 (Basic Books, 2003).
3. Lynn Margulis quoted in Darry Madden, “UMass Scientist to Lead Debate on Evolutionary Theory,” Brattleboro (Vt.) Reformer (Feb 3, 2006).
4. Stanley Salthe ,quoted in Discovery Institute, “40 Texas scientists join growing national list of scientists skeptical of Darwin,” September 5, 2003. Available: http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=1555.
5. Jerry Fodor, “Why Pigs Don’t Have Wings,” London Review of Books (October 18, 2007) at http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n20/fodo01_.html.
6. Philip S. Skell, “Why Do We Invoke Darwin? Evolutionary theory contributes little to experimental biology,” The Scientist (August 29, 2005), available at http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=2816.
7. See “A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism,” at http://www.dissentfromdarwin.org.

Source: Slide 3

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  • http://www.paulburnett.com/creation.htm Paul Burnett

    “Squiggy” said: “So you just make stuff up?”

    No, unlike you, I don’t make stuff up – but you made a small mistake.

    You mistakenly commented “Oh, and Google “Ann Coulter is right” and you get several million hits.”

    …and I reported “Google: “Results 1 – 10 of about 19,600 for “Ann Coulter is right”"

    Whereupon you responded back with a different challenge, showing the Google reports “Web Results 1 – 10 of about 3,010,000 for Ann Coulter is right.”

    Oh…you don’t know how to use Google. There’s a vast difference between your first challenge (as you formatted it) in looking for

    “Ann Coulter is right”

    and in looking for

    Ann Coulter is right

    Enclosing the search terms in quote marks looks for just that phrase. Doing it the way you did in the second challenge simply looks for all web pages with those four words anywhere on the web page. Entirely different results, quod erat demonstrandum.

    See? You learned something!

  • Squiggy

    So you just make stuff up?

    I can’t copy and paste with formatting, but here’s the google for Ann Coulter is right. Oh, and the only person who said anything about a “vast leftwing conspiracy” is you.

    Web Images Maps News Shopping Gmail more Blogs Books Calendar Documents Finance Groups Photos Reader Scholar Video YouTube even more »
    Sign in
    Google
    Advanced Search
    Preferences
    Web Results 1 – 10 of about 3,010,000 for Ann Coulter is right. (0.05 seconds)

  • http://www.paulburnett.com/creation.htm Paul Burnett

    “Squiggy” hallucinated: “Oh, and Google “Ann Coulter is right” and you get several million hits.”

    Google: “Results 1 – 10 of about 19,600 for “Ann Coulter is right”"

    Looks like Google is also part of your vast liberal conspiracy fantasy. Sorry about that. I’ll be happy to let your hatred and lies speak for themselves.

  • Squiggy

    I couldn’t lie about your vocation since I didn’t know it. I guessed. And you did lie. You didn’t read her book. And you aren’t very good at pretending you did.

    You quoted a couple of unhinged liberals when you tried to trash her. Being called a liar by liars. Big stress there, Pancho. By the way, how many people bought their books? Bet even you didn’t.

    And yes, I absolutely deny she’s foul-mouthed. Take your little “example” of “fisting”. She was quoting what you people want to teach our children. She uses quotes from people on your side, to show how insane the left in America is. If quoting you people is “foul-mouthed”, so be it. You people can’t handle having your own words thrown back at you. It makes you crazy, and it shows the weakness of your “values” (leftist values – there’s an oxymoron).

    As for your Naval service, thanks. Me too, and I volunteered during peacetime. But that means little about your politics (or mine). John F. Kerry also was in the service, and there aren’t many worse traitors alive today. Modern day Benedict Arnold.

    Oh, and Google “Ann Coulter is right” and you get several million hits. What in the world was your little point?

  • http://www.paulburnett.com/creation.htm Paul Burnett

    I figured I would look for some resources on Ann Coulter, and found several books that are “sequels” to her book “Godless” – look ‘em up on Amazon:

    Brainless: The Lies and Lunacy of Ann Coulter – by Joe Maguire

    Soulless: Ann Coulter and the Right-Wing Church of Hate – by Susan Estrich

    Or just Google:

    “”Ann Coulter” Godless lies” – you get 99,400 hits

    “”Ann Coulter” Godless plagiarism” – you get 10,800 hits

    Or check out http://www.talkreason.org/articles/coulter1.cfm – “Her sashay into matters scientific delightfully illustrates a common theme in sloppy thinking. Coulter is a secondary citation addict. Like a scholarly lemming, she compulsively reads inaccurate antievolutionary sources and accepts them on account of their reinforcement of what she wants to be true. It never once occurs to her that she might find it prudent to check on the reliability of those sources before accompanying them off the cliff…”

    Goodness, the woman’s got a cottage industry built up around her.

  • http://www.paulburnett.com/creation.htm Paul Burnett

    “Squiggy” lied: “Welcome to Paul’s world. P.S. He’s a teacher. He’s teaching your children. Be very afraid.”

    Perhaps you missed noticing my teaching certificate is in Adult Vocational Education. I don’t teach children.

    “Squiggy” also said: “You’re just another old liberal hippy.”

    You’re wrong again – I missed the hippy generation (but I am old). I was working for the US Navy with a security clearance by the time the hippy thing got rolling.

    Did you actually look at http://mediamatters.org/items/200608070002 which goes into detail on the plagiarism etc in “Godless”? Or did you just dismiss it out of hand since it disagree with your heroine. And how can you possibly deny she’s foul-mouthed? Or is the way she talks and writes normal for both of you?

    Instead of ad hominem attacks, you might note that “footnotes” which represent misinformation and disinformation don’t constitute scholarship?

    And it’s still a tragedy that you take Ann Coulter’s word for what is and is not science instead of actual scientists and scientific organizations and associations. Did you, for instance, look what the over 150 actual biology professors in Texas who signed a letter to the Texas education establishment – see http://www.texscience.org/reviews/biology-professor-letter.htm – had to say about evolution? 150 PhD biologists? Or Ann Coulter?

  • Squiggy

    For the rest of you who haven’t read “Godless” (like Paul), she did talk about “fisting”. She was quoting a handout in the San Francisco public school system, which is part of their required curriculum. If you want to call that “foul-mouthed” then call Mayor Willy and tell him you don’t think fourth-graders need to know what gays do in the privacy of their own home. Her book is about the utter insanity of liberalism. This is just one glowing example.

    Every quote in “Godless” is backed up with footnotes and with complete attribution to whomever said it. Including her chapters on evolution, with kudos to whomever did the actual research. By definition, that’s not plagiarism. That’s well and proper.

    And anyone who can come up with a lie is quite welcome to let me in on it. Since Paul quotes “MediaMatters” (another “dailykos” with a Hillary bent), you would assume they could show one of these “lies” they say her book is rife with. They don’t. Surprise, surprise. Just more unhinged ranting.

    Welcome to Paul’s world.

    P.S. He’s a teacher. He’s teaching your children. Be very afraid.

  • Squiggy

    I knew it. You’re not some starry-eyed young evolutionist. You’re just another old liberal hippy. Once again, ignore.

  • http://www.paulburnett.com/creation.htm Paul Burnett

    Squiggy said: “I doubt you read it (Ann Coulter’s Godless)… ”

    Doubt away. I bought it and read it (to my regret). I just went into my library and can’t find it, so it’s either in dead storage or I gave it away. Here’s what I wrote right after I read “Godless”:

    In her latest obscenity-ridden book Godless: The Church of Liberalism (Crown Forum, June 2006), Ann Coulter, the designated spokes-harridan for the foaming-at-the-mouth ultra-right-wing, devotes two chapters to a bizarre attempt to discredit evolution and support Intelligent Design. She regurgitates the faulty arguments of creationists from whom even many religious conservatives distanced themselves long ago. She writes “I couldn’t have written about evolution without the generous tutoring of Michael Behe, David Berlinski, and William Dembski, all of whom are fabulous at translating complex ideas…” Berlinski, Dembski, and Behe are senior fellows with the Center for Science and Culture at the Discovery Institute (see below). (Read much more on Coulter’s utter ignorance of evolution at http://mediamatters.org/items/200607070010 or at http://www.talkreason.org/articles/coulter1.cfm or at http://www.talkreason.org/articles/coulter2.cfm.)

    Coulter’s diatribe against evolution is only part of her book, of course. But if there was ever any doubt of the close connection between the anti-science opponents of evolution and the right-wing whacko fundamentalists, Coulter’s book makes it abundantly clear.

    Frankly, I was embarrassed while reading her book – not only by her incredible ignorance of science (based largely on her reliance on ex-scientists Behe and Dembski), but the nearly-every-page obscenities. Her use of the term “fisting” was a first for me – I thought it meant some sort of hand-to-hand combat, but it’s something else entirely, which I was not aware was used in political discourse. (Perhaps because she is your heroine and “Godless” was such an epiphany for you, you can discuss “fisting” for us, and how it contributes to the discussion.)

    Check out http://mediamatters.org/items/200608070002 to see how “Godless” is rife with plagiarism, quote-mining, exaggeration and downright lying.

    You are welcome to your foul-mouthed heroine and her foul book. I prefer to get my scientific information from actual scientific publications by actual scientists doing actual science.

  • Squiggy

    I doubt you read it, or if you did you actually paid attention. I notice you don’t quote the book, you quote a joke she made on television.

    And I didn’t say her book was the be-all and end-all, I just said read it and then start questioning your beliefs. Her writings in the chapters on evolution are fully backed up with real science. By real scientists who have been forced (by the data) to question their beliefs. That is the real scientific method. You know, hypothesize, then test, then either confirm your hypothesis or come up with a new one. Unlike the theory of evolution which never has it’s core theory questioned, ever. Like, you know, religion.

    Tell you what, I’ll check out your links when you attempt to answer my question. So far you’ve ignored it (because the answer would be too hard?).

  • http://www.paulburnett.com/creation.htm Paul Burnett

    Squiggy said: “Read Ann Coulters book Godless, and get back to me.”

    Back at you – I read it when it came out. So you accept “scientific information” from the official spokes-harridan for the foaming-at-the-mouth Christian Reconstructionists (who in turn got her “information” on intelligent design creationism from Bill Dembski and other spokes-persons of the Dishonesty Institute)? Ann Coulter thinks Mike Huckabee is a liberal (http://apologus.wordpress.com/2007/12/21/ann-coulter-slams-huckabees-liberalism/ )! Yeah, Annie’s a real conservative poster girl: happily married, a good mother, sober, considerate…or is that somebody else? I still like her exemplary quote “We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity.” There’s a reasoned attitude for you.

    This is tragic – you believe a radical political commentator’s comments about the evolution-intelligent design creationism controversy, but ignore the National Academy of Sciences, the National Science Teachers Association, the American Association for the Advancement of Science and essentially every other actual science organization’s comments about the evolution-intelligent design creationism controversy. That’s really smart, Squiggy.

    Have you read Barbara Forrest’s paper I recommended earlier?

  • wtexas

    Since science doesn’t like to hear that God created life,
    and since Intelligent Design is also a no-no,
    perhaps we could call it Sentient Evolution.

    Sentient Evolution would be able to show how evolution “decided” to bring life from non life, “decided” to make life replicating, “decided” to program life with built in obsolescense (vs long/eternal lifespan), “decided” to make this life form into complex structures such as bodies w/ circulatory systems, and “decided” to forego research into taking the first one celled creatures and perfecting them into “super amoeba”.

  • Squiggy

    I have a bachelors in psychology, but I don’t use it. Psychology is wonderful for finding out what caused a problem, but it is absolutely useless for solving much of anything. Outside of a few severe chemical imbalances which can be ameliorated with drugs (never “cured”) there is zero track record for psychology. God changes people for the better – the “mental sciences” change nothing except the balances in peoples bank accounts.

    I’ve answered your question, but you don’t answer anyone else’s. In another thread I asked you for any possible explanation for the Cambrian explosion. Before that, worms were the highest form of life. After that, the world was populated with “fully evolved” life. Billions of species, fully formed. And it happened in five to ten million years. With an error margin of guess what?, five to ten million years. So in a geologic blink of an eye the earth was full.

    In “evolution theory”, the tree of life should look like an inverted triangle. It doesn’t. Due to extinctions through the millennia, the “tree of life” looks like a pyramid. There is zero evidence of “new species” (poor circumstantial evidence just doesn’t cut it in the real sciences, and it doesn’t cut it here). Evolution is “science” in a pigs eye. It is neither testable nor reproducible. It takes faith to believe in it. In other words, it is a religion.

    And just for your information, I used to believe like you. Until I opened my eyes and actually looked into the evidence. Read Ann Coulters book Godless, and get back to me. You will question your beliefs.

  • wtexas

    Science say the big bang happened–something from nothing.

    Religious people say God created the universe–rom nothing.

    Let’s compromise and call it ” the Magic of the Big Bang”, and “The Magic of evolution.”

    Since basically, that’s what it apparantly is. Magic.

  • http://www.paulburnett.com/creation.htm Paul Burnett

    Mike recycled the tired old creationist wheeze from Fred Hoyle about “a tornado sweeping through a junk-yard might assemble a Boeing 747…”

    “This claim is irrelevant to the theory of evolution itself, since evolution does not occur via assembly from individual parts, but rather via selective gradual modifications to existing structures. Order can and does result from such evolutionary processes. Hoyle applied his analogy to abiogenesis, where it is more applicable. However, the general principle behind it is wrong. Order arises spontaneously from disorder all the time. The tornado itself is an example of order arising spontaneously. Something as complicated as people would not arise spontaneously from raw chemicals, but there is no reason to believe that something as simple as a self-replicating molecule could not form thus. From there, evolution can produce more and more complexity. – http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CF/CF002_1.html

    “…Dembski’s method is supposed to be based on probability and he has promised readers of his earlier work a probability calculation, he proceeds to calculate a probability for the origin of the flagellum. But this calculation is based on the assumption that the flagellum arose suddenly, as an utterly random combination of proteins. The calculation is elaborate but totally irrelevant, since no evolutionary biologist proposes that complex biological systems appeared in this way. In fact, this is the same straw man assumption frequently made by Creationists in the past, and which has been likened to a Boeing 747 being assembled by a tornado blowing through a junkyard.” – http://www.talkorigins.org/design/faqs/nfl/

    Fred Hoyle’s flawed but popular tornado/747 ploy is discredited more thoroughly at http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html and http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/chance/chance.html, among others.

    Mike also said: “Sorry, Paul, but if you cannot answer the probabilities question without appealing to ignorance or authority, then you have lost the argument.” But that doesn’t mean I’m wrong – it just means I don’t have enough information at hand at the moment.

  • wtexas

    Oh I see how. Random Mutations transform inferior malfunctioning DNA into normal healthy viable DNA.

    So simple and eloquent an answer.

  • wtexas

    Using my example of HillBilly Town, lets say all the people on earth died today, with the exception of HillBilly Town residents.

    The HillBilly Towners, seeing that the whole earth is now available for colonizing, set out to all 4 corners of the globe. They set up small villages and proceed to repopulate the earth using their deformed, messed up HillBilly Town genes.

    Evolutions would have us believe that after perhaps a million years the product from this inbred gene pool is somehow transformed into a rich, varied, healthy population.

    HOW?

  • wtexas

    Evolution can’t answer my questions. Evolution works well in reference to large viable breeding populations. Evolution has no provisions for referencing how tiny populations avoided extinction through excess inbreeding from a tiny geen pool.

    Evolution can’t explain how the gene pool went from tiny and nonvaried to large and varied.

  • wtexas

    Lets say there is a small town in rural Kentucky, HillBilly Town. Population 500.

    This town has been isolated for a century. All the residents are inbred and marriage between brother/sister is common, perhaps unavoidable.

    Most people there are deformed because of inbreeding.

    Now, lets rewind history and go back, back, way back.

    Going backwards through time we see smaller and smaller human populations.

    6 billion, 3 billion, 100 million, 50 million, 200 thousand, 5 thousand, 2 thousand, 500.

    Logically, if you look back, there would have had to have been a time when there were only 500 homosapiens existing in the world.

    These homosapiens would have inbreed themselves out of existence.

    My question is: Why didn’t this happen.

  • http://www.paulburnett.com/creation.htm Paul Burnett

    Squiggy said: “Thank who for small favors?”

    God. Among other things I am an ordained minister. As Mike LaSalle got involved into this discussion via cosmology, I got involved via theology (as well as biology). Intelligent design creationism is deliberately silent on the identity of its designer. It was deliberately crafted to remove all references to the Creator God of Genesis – and that’s blasphemous. I don’t mind creationists being creationists (as long as they don’t try to turn others into creationists) but the blatant hypocrisy of excising the creator out of His creation is just wrong.

    And nobody would seriously say “thank Darwin for small favors” – that’s just more example of your snarky inability to realize that evolution is not a religion.

    And you have not replied to my question as to whether you actually have a doctorate in psychology (clinical? research? organizational? sports?) and a license to practice.

  • Squiggy

    Okay. One more (because it’s fun finding fault in the infallible).

    Thank who for small favors?

    Shouldn’t you say “thank Darwin for small favors?” Or “thank science for small favors?”

  • wtexas

    Today there are billions of us humans, lets say 6 billion. Looking into the past we can say that there were at one time 3 billion. Further into the past there were fewer and fewer humans. At one point in time I suppose, from an evolutionary viewpoint, there were no humans, just the previous form that preceded us.

    Basic biology shows us that inbreeding is bad. Father/daughter, Mother/son, brother/sister matings produce less viable offspring.

    In the distant past when there were fewer humans, fewer pigs, fewer woodpeckers, who did we all mate with.

    Could there have been a point in early human history when there was just one model we would call homo sapien? Who or what did that individual mate with? Why didn’t humanity self destruct from the onslaught of rampant deformed inbred genes.

    Why didn’t homo sapien evolve through inbreeding into hillybilly sapien?

    No one knows why.

    If you believe in the process of evolution accounting for life on earth and this life utlimately came from ONE single lifeform, then you must also imbue evolution with certain properties of life and say that evolution “decided” to send life down one path or another. Evolution “decided” to waive the inbreeding penalty and “decided” to reinstate it when the breeding population became large enough.

  • wtexas

    Scientists generally state that life on earth evolved from one celled organisms billions of years ago. Why would evolution steer towards complex multi celled organisms that age with clearly defined life spans? Logically, wouldn’t evolution have gone for better one celled organisms? These amoebas would eventually be bigger, better, faster and stronger. After billions of years nature would have perfected these amoebas, they would have perhaps gained intelligence and have nearly infinite lifespans.

    Instead, evolution decided to go amazingly complex and to set a limit on how long everything lives, usually just a few years with some exceptions. Evolution also decided to separate those original one celled organisms into thousands of different directions to form thousands of different species.

    Seems like an inefficient waste of resources and effort to me.

  • wtexas

    When we talk about the creation of the universe, the creation o time/space, we say that a “big bang” happened. SOMETHING came out of NOTHING. Nobody seems to have a problem admitting to that.

    Why then, when we talk about life, can’t we say that life began, that we have absolutely no idea how it began, that we have no theories, no hypothesis, no arguments. Nobody does,really.

    If it can be stated the cosmos came about from a Big Bang, something from nothing, then why can’t we say the very first life just spontaneously happened from non life. Call it magic, or miracle, or God, or superscience, or chaos causality, but in essence you had non living chemicals and matter and one day complex life formed and was able to eat and was able to reproduce and was able to survive.

    If evolution can explain it, then there should have been a series of molecules in various states of non life. You would go from completely unliving, to somewhat living, to nearly living, to alive. Each successive series of molecules would be adapting itself to reach a state called “alive”. The non living matter would “evolve” into a life form. Yet we see no evidence of that from the past and no examples of that special state of matter in the present.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/mike-lasalle Mike LaSalle

    Case in point: Paul said, “Sorry, I don’t understand how it worked well enough to explain it.”

    The famous astronomer Fred Hoyle

    …compared the random emergence of even the simplest cell to the likelihood that “a tornado sweeping through a junk-yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein.” Hoyle also compared the chance of obtaining even a single functioning protein by chance combination of amino acids to a solar system full of blind men solving Rubik’s Cube simultaneously.

    Even so, when faced with this insurmountable difficulty, orthodox Darwinists like Paul will invariably and inevitably fall back upon Arguments From Ignorance (“I don’t understand how…”) or Appeals to Authority (“Though I don’t know, I have faith that someone else can answer the question…”).

    Sorry, Paul, but if you cannot answer the probabilities question without appealing to ignorance or authority, then you have lost the argument.

  • http://www.paulburnett.com/creation.htm Paul Burnett

    Squiggy complained: “You pop up here one day, attacking anyone who dares to call a belief in a higher being a good thing.” That’s not who I’m attacking. My “attacks” are reserved for those who want to force (sometimes by subterfuge) their beliefs on innocent school children in public schools, particularly after the US Supreme Court said in 1987 they can’t do that.

    Squiggy complained: “But you’re always 100% positive you’re right.”

    Well, some of these targets are easy. Casey’s headline said “Darwin’s Failed Predictions, Slide 3: “The role of natural selection in evolution is controversial among scientists.” That’s been one of the creationists’ Big Lies since their spectacular loss at the Dover trial (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dover_trial ) in 2005.

    A naturally-occurring question might be “Just how many scientists agree that the role of natural selection in evolution is controversial?” And the answer is “over 700″ (actually 704). But then a naturally-occurring question might be “What percentage of all scientists have come out and agreed that the role of natural selection in evolution is controversial?” And the answer is “704 out of approximately 480,000 scientists (in the United States) agree that the role of natural selection in evolution is controversial.”

    So the headline should read:”Darwin’s Failed Predictions, Slide 3: “The role of natural selection in evolution is controversial among 0.000208333% of scientists.” Now, I’m 100% positive I’m right on this – the math is straightforward.

    You then said “When you actually demonstrate a little knowledge maybe I’ll pay attention. Until then, you’re set on “ignore”.” Thank God for small favors.

  • http://www.paulburnett.com/creation.htm Paul Burnett

    Wtexas quoted: “…University of Texas at Austin have been able to visualize how life progressed from an early self-replicating molecule…” and then asked: “Perhaps Paul Burnett can answer these: How did living organisms come about?”

    Sorry, I don’t understand how it worked well enough to explain it. Why don’t you ask the folks at Austin? Or take a look at http://www.texscience.org/reviews/biology-professor-letter.htm – I’m sure one of those actual biology professors could answer it for you.

    But please note that unlike some people here, just because I don’t understand something well enough to explain it, I don’t fall back to saying “Lo, a miracle – an intelligent designer waved his noodly appendge and poofed life into existence!”

  • Squiggy

    If I engaged in “personal attacks” at all, it was only in calling you a troll. You pop up here one day, attacking anyone who dares to call a belief in a higher being a good thing.

    Plus, you never answer any questions. You occasionally link to someone who sorta-kinda refutes something or other, but mostly you just pick another tangent to go off on. But you’re always 100% positive you’re right.

    What’s funny is, you don’t even really read what other people write. You’re not proving anything to anyone here (except maybe you’re convincing yourself). I’m quite sure your “students” are totally behind the latest liberal fad you’ve forced down their throat.

    When you actually demonstrate a little knowledge maybe I’ll pay attention. Until then, you’re set on “ignore”.

  • wtexas

    “…University of Texas at Austin have been able to visualize how life progressed from an early self-replicating molecule…”

    Perhaps Paul Burnett can answer these: How did living organisms come about? By what process do you go from a chemical soup to self-replicating molecules? Can this process be repeated in a laboratory?

  • http://www.paulburnett.com/creation.htm Paul Burnett

    Squiggy, Squiggy, Squiggy…where to start?

    I don’t want to crush your ideas. I just don’t want you to indoctrinate your ideas of intelligent design creationism (= religion) into innocent school children in public schools – particularly since the US Supreme Court and a Federal court have said you can’t do that. But you want to do it any way, so you will try to destroy evolution and biology and science and civilization rather than give up on your Bronze Age creation mythology. That’s what needs to be crushed. (And I am not exaggerating – have you read Barbara Forrest’s paper, “Understanding the Intelligent Design Creationist Movement: Its True Nature and Goals,” available at http://www.centerforinquiry.net/uploads/attachments/intelligent-design.pdf ?)

    You say “My degree is in psychology, and I very much recognize your personality type.” Oh, I’m quaking in my boots. My dear wife has a couple of degrees in psychology, including a doctorate…I’m not afraid of psychology or psychologists, particularly “psychologists” who can psychoanalyze me from a distance. And a careful semantic analysis of your statement shows that you may not actully have a doctorate in psychology. Tell me, Squiggy, do you have a doctorate in psychology and do you have a state license to practice psychology? Because if you don’t, you’re blowing smoke. In fact, because of your anonymity, you could claim several doctorates, couldn’t you? That reminds me of the old cartoon, “On the Internet, nobody knows you’re a dog.”

    You said “So many new-age stalkers trolling the comment sections (especially any place with a mainly conservative bent).” I think there’s a psychological term for that…paranoia? And a convenient excuse for your anonymity, which allows you to continue scrawl insults. There’s a word for that and I think I’ve already used it.

    You say “You are a great example of why the teaching profession is no longer held in high esteem. You don’t teach, you indoctrinate.” Sorry, no – I actually am a teacher, and a public speaker known for my ability to explicate difficult topics. My students more often than not appreciate my methods. (Granted, indoctrination is a small part of some of the things I teach, such as regulatory compliance classes.) And I recognize that dissent is important – but I will not countenance overt or covert sabotage.

    But to get back to the subject at hand. The headline should read:

    “0.000208333% of doctoral scientists have signed a public statement proclaiming their agreement that, “We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life.”

    That’s not my “Lies, damn lies and statisics…” – that’s Casey Luskin’s and the Discovery Institute’s “Lies, damn lies and statisics…”

    Why do you engage in a personal attack rather than reply to my re-framing of Casey Luskin’s and the Discovery Institute’s “Lies, damn lies and statisics…”? There’s a psychological term for that, too.

  • Squiggy

    Paul, you are a perfect example of why I use a nom de plume. So many new-age stalkers trolling the comment sections (especially any place with a mainly conservative bent).

    As for my doctorate, it’s not in “evolutionary biology”, though my minor is in biology. My degree is in psychology, and I very much recognize your personality type. Absolutely sure of yourself (on the outside), and smarter than anyone you meet. And anything which conflicts with your world-view is the product of morons.

    You are a great example of why the teaching profession is no longer held in high esteem. You don’t teach, you indoctrinate. And dissent must be crushed. Funny how atheists always seem to end up using similar “re-education” techniques on their “enemies”. It worked so well for the Soviets, and the Chinese, and the Cubans, etc. (Not to mention the hundreds of millions of people who had to be “purged” in the last century). They called themselves scientists also.

    But this doesn’t apply to you, of course. You’re more “enlightened” than they were. You only want to crush our ideas.

  • roger

    Please “explain” how hydrogen gas evolves into something like protoplasm. When does it have enough “information” to know to eat? At what point does the protoplasm have the “information” to know how to self-replicate through cell division? Where does it gain that “information”?

    Evolution theory assumes that hydrogen, if left to it’s own devices, will somehow self assemble (if given 4-5 billion years) into a living, replicating creature. And there are many, many people in the sciences all over the place that will acknowledge that they haven’t a freeking clue how that could possibly happen.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/mike-lasalle Mike LaSalle

    Paul said,

    Or “99.999…% of doctoral scientists disagree with creationism.”

    The people that signed the “Dissent from Darwinism” are self-selected — and they also quite obviously signed the Dissent at the risk of their professional careers.

    The fact that so few scientists have actually stepped forward to make their dissent public is not at all surprising given Dr. Gonzalez’s experience.

    Lies, damn lies and statisics…

  • http://www.paulburnett.com/creation.htm Paul Burnett

    Mike said: “Philip Skell is a member of the National Academy of Sciences…”

    Great. Out of the 704 “dissenters,” name a second member of the NAS.

    Any ideas on when Philip Skell published his last peer-reviewed actual science journal article mentioning evolution?

    Mike said: “Over 700 scientists, Paul. That’s not a few crackpots.”

    Okay, let’s do some basic math: 704 “dissenters” divided by the total number of actual scientists, which is estimated at about 480,000 = 0.00000208333…

    So, instead of the news item reading “over 700 doctoral scientists have signed a public statement proclaiming their agreement that, “We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life.” the news item should read:

    “0.000208333% of doctoral scientists have signed a public statement proclaiming their agreement that, “We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life.”

    I think I’m safe in saying that 0.000208333% is “a few.”

    Maybe instead it should say “99.999…% of doctoral scientists have signed a public statement proclaiming their agreement with the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life.”

    Or “99.999…% of doctoral scientists disagree with creationism.”

    And I’ve gotten an opinion on another blog that “…you could probably find more scientists in mental hospitals or detox centers than scientists who reject evolution on religious grounds.”

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/mike-lasalle Mike LaSalle

    Paul said,

    “Of its 704 signatories, 314 (45%) self-report being in a life sciences field. Only 159 (23%) were in a life science directly related to the study of evolution.”

    For my part, I came to ID because of my interest in cosmology — not because of any personal interest or stake in Darwinian evolution. (I have already discussed the probabilities question; to date, I have seen no satisfactory response to this question from neo-Darwinists besides trite appeals to Arguments from Ignorance.) The point being: the life sciences represent only a subset of the larger issue of unexplained Anthropic Bias.

    In respect to the throw-away line about these doctoral scientists having degrees from “diploma mills” — that’s an intentional smear for which you have provided no evidence.

    BTW – Philip Skell is a member of the National Academy of Sciences and a professor emeritus of the Penn State Department of Chemistry. If I’m not mistaken, his Ph.D. is from the University of Washington. Hardly a diploma mill.
    http://www.the-scientist.com/2005/08/29/10/1/

  • http://www.paulburnett.com/creation.htm Paul Burnett

    Mike said: “Over 700 scientists, Paul. That’s not a few crackpots.”

    700 “dissenters” out of the sum total of all sorts of scientists (particularly if some of them are astrologers (per Michael Behe)…) is properly referred to as “a few.” What’s your problem?

    Casey Luskin said: “…over 700 doctoral scientists have signed a public statement proclaiming their agreement that, “We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life.”

    Here’s a couple of quotes on Casey’s infamous list of 704 “dissenters”:

    “Of its 704 signatories, 314 (45%) self-report being in a life sciences field. Only 159 (23%) were in a life science directly related to the study of evolution.”

    “Ignoring the non biologists, and the academics from outside USA and the faculty of diploma mills, there is probably less than 50 people worth contacting on the list of “700 dissenters”.”

    http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2008/01/new-nas-book-on.html#new-comments

    Somewhere else I’ve seen an analysis of the “dissenters” showing some are from creationist “bible colleges”, some are medical doctors. Opinions have also been expressed that some of the actual scientists on the list would be horrified to find their names are being used to support creationism.

    And I will match Casey’s list of miscellaneous “dissenters” with the over 150 actual biology professors in Texas (only one state!) who signed a letter to the Texas education establishment – see http://www.texscience.org/reviews/biology-professor-letter.htm

    These real biology professors from real Texas universities said:

    “A massive body of scientific evidence supports evolution. All working scientists agree that publication in top peer-reviewed journals is the scoreboard of modern science. A quick database search of scientific publications since 1975 shows 29,639 peer-reviewed scientific papers on evolution in twelve leading journals alone2. To put this in perspective, if you read 5 papers a day, every day, it would take you 16 years to read this body of original research. These tens of thousands of research papers on evolution provide overwhelming support for the common ancestry of living organisms and for the mechanisms of evolution including natural selection. In contrast, a search of the same database for “Intelligent Design” finds a mere 24 articles, every one of which is critical of intelligent design.”

    “intelligent design is a religious idea that deserves no place in the science classroom at all.”

    Who are you going to believe? The opinion of actual biology professors and the National Academy of Sciences and the US Supreme Court and Judge Jones and every actual scientific association (and the list goes on…)? Or the opinion of a lawyer who is paid by the Discovery Institute to say what they want him to say?

  • GreatMRNI

    I’m not sure if the following qualifies as a “cross species” example, but it is worth further examination.

    “The Crocodile fish, Cymbacephalus beauforti (Knapp, 1973), aka Crocodilefish, De Beaufort’s flathead … is a mottled brownish gray species of flatfish with fluorescent green markings criss-crossing its body. It often camouflages itself on sheltered or semi-exposed reefs. It may reach 50 centimeters in length and has 9 or 10 dorsal spines, 11 dorsal soft rays, no anal spines, 11 anal soft rays, and large pelvic fins. Juveniles are entirely black, though as they age they gradually take on the blotched pattern of the adult. The rear edge of the maxilla ends well in front of eye, and near the eye there is a prominent pit, a smooth infraorbital ridge, and a smooth suborbital ridge bearing 2 spines. The interopercular flap is usually broader than long, with several subdivisions. The eyes of the Crocodilefish have frilly iris lappets (see second photo), which help break up the black pupil of the fish, and thus improve its camouflage.

    World Range & Habitat
    The Crocodile fish, Cymbacephalus beauforti, is non-migratory and is generally associated with marine reefs from 19 degrees North to 23 degrees South, at depths of 1 to 8 meters. In the western Pacific, it may be seen off the Philippines, Borneo, the Moluccas, Papua New Guinea, New Caledonia, Palau, and Yap Island to Ishigaki Island. Its range extends as far as the Mentawai Islands in Indonesia. The Beauforts crocodile fish lives on sandy or rubble substrates near mangroves, seagrass or coral reefs, in very shallow water down to at least 30 meters. The rough and mottled nature of the substrate mimics the pattern on the fish, allowing for camouflage.

    » GBIF occurrence data in Google Earth [Requirements | Tips]
    » Ocean Biogeographic Information System (OBIS) [World Map] | OBIS-SEAMAP | [about]

    Feeding Behavior (Ecology)
    The Crocodile fish, Cymbacephalus beauforti, is a bottom-dwelling ambush hunter and feeds largely on smaller fish and crustaceans. Rather than eat the local small fish called wrasses, the crocodilefish allows them to clean its teeth in a symbiotic relationship.

    Life History
    Little is known about the breeding habits of the Crocodile fish, though the minimum population doubling time is probably between 4.5 and 14 years.

    Comments
    Divers who come across a crocodilefish have little to worry about—the fish often remains very still, even if humans approach them.
    Further Research ^ back to top

    » Crocodile Fish IUCN RedList Status (threatened, endangered…) [about]
    » Crocodile Fish CITES Listing (international trade protection status) [about]
    » Scirus for Cymbacephalus beauforti [about]
    » GBIF Biodiversity Data for Cymbacephalus beauforti [about]
    » Google Scholar for Cymbacephalus beauforti [about]
    » SIRIS (Bibliographies) for Cymbacephalus beauforti [about]
    » Search BioOne Journals for Cymbacephalus beauforti [about]
    » National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI) [about]
    » Tree of Life Web Project: Family Platycephalidae [about]
    »

    References [Edit Species]

    Integrated Taxonomic Information System (ITIS): Cymbacephalus beauforti

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/mike-lasalle Mike LaSalle

    Paul Burnett said (without attribution):

    The title alone is bogus: “The role of natural selection in evolution is controversial among scientists.” Maybe a few scientists, but not many.

    Casey Luskin said (with attribution):

    over 700 doctoral scientists have signed a public statement proclaiming their agreement that, “We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life.”7 http://www.dissentfromdarwin.org

    Groucho once said,

    Who are you going to believe: Me or your own lying eyes?

    Over 700 scientists, Paul. That’s not a few crackpots. That’s a genuine movement of outsiders in conscious defiance of a passive herd.

    Moooove over, big shooter.

  • http://www.paulburnett.com/creation.htm Paul Burnett

    Squiggy said: “Okay, Paul. What is your doctorate in?”

    I don’t have a doctorate, just a teaching certificate (Adult Vocational Education, University of Maryland, 1976).

    Which branch of biological science is your doctorate in?

    At least I use my actual name. Why do you commit your off-topic creationist vandalism hiding behind a bogus name? Cowardice?

    Have you read the National Academy of Sciences’ latest book, Science, Evolution, and Creationism? Take a look at http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=11876

    Real scientists doing real science (and rightfully dissing creationism and intelligent design).

  • amfortas

    Getting from A to B, life seems very inefficient. Remember Stephanie?

  • Big shooter

    Oh now I get it- Darwin was wrong about a couple things so the whole theory of evolution is false. And creationism is established as irrefutable scientific fact? Grow up.

  • Squiggy

    Okay, Paul. What is your doctorate in?

  • http://www.paulburnett.com/creation.htm Paul Burnett

    The title alone is bogus: “The role of natural selection in evolution is controversial among scientists.” Maybe a few scientists, but not many.

    For some actual science, read today’s (Thursday, January 3, 2008) issue of the journal Nature. Article summary at http://news.uns.purdue.edu/x/2008a/080102GoldenEnzyme.html

    “The crystal structure of a molecule from a primitive fungus has served as a time machine to show researchers more about the evolution of life from the simple to the complex.

    By studying the three-dimensional version of the fungus protein bound to an RNA molecule, scientists from Purdue University and the University of Texas at Austin have been able to visualize how life progressed from an early self-replicating molecule that also performed chemical reactions to one in which proteins assumed some of the work.”

    Real scientists doing real science – that’s what it’s all about.

  • Artfldgr

    PS… if there is interest in me laying out the whole process that creates an eye from nothing to what we have, let me know… i can also lay out a process to give you wings… and other things… the hard part isnt the description, the hard part is knowing all the different ways that things combine to be made and work.

    i WILL say that the more like program code you think DNA is, the more likely it is that you will not see how it can get from A to B. (or if you think that DNA isnt the defining thing).

    while there are a lot of resemblences there are things that exist in biological ‘code’ that normal linear or designed code doesnt have.

    so if you think the code is designed, then you will not think those constructs and operations are there (which they are), and you will not be able to connect the dots.

    since there is no real pay off in conneccting these dots, the thing is left wide open. and its easier to claim a gotcha and judge all the answers wanting, and NOT actually get into the huge wealth of information across many disciplines that would give some clarity on the issue of darwin as a process (which says nothing about the process being gods intent or not, or winked into existence and out or not. they are not resolvable, which one can think is the intent if one wants to).

    nature is extremely efficient… but breaking through new exploitable areas creates the freedom to be sloppy for a while till competition gets stiffer. EXACTLY the way that capitalism wihtout the stae works (these things are all fractal, which is why philosophy while fluffy can be useful in abstraction, but philosphers love their models too much, while scientists want their models to work not be esthetic (though its remarkable how what works ends up being that way. though do note, that while it works from correct to aesthetic, you cant work it bacwards from aethestic to working, but philosphers, and ideologues beleve you can).

    since i am a bit on vacation, and i might have to wait for dsl repair tomorrow. i might just put it together if there is enough interest…
    and i will do so that one doesnt need a phd to understand it….

    so, will the EYES have it? if so, i will show A process that leads to complex eyes.

  • Artfldgr

    and yet these same scientists can go to a pigeon breeders, a dog show, a cat show… and not say that pressure can change a species over time enough that its nothing like its predecessor… if they can say that, then these same people would find an african termite mound inexplicable if you showed them a grain of sand and told them that a small insect built the ten foot high structure.

    the problem that this takes is not one of actual scientific questions or such, or even religious dogma… as you can find perfectly find resolutions to both… but ideological utopianism… competition is bad, differences are bad, man no longer evolves, etc.

    you cant find a two way resolution for that, which is why its such a dogmatic argument now, when for a long time, it wasnt much of any argument… as crationists believed that it was made fast, but made this way… and non theists believe it just is this way… but when you try to combine creation with ideology… or darwin with ideology… it contradicts both on different points and rather than a third leg, becomes a dividing spike.

    the issue of god is one of intent and speaking for god… one must speak for god to say his intent, and then decide that this thing is wrong… this is a product of humanism, not god, as a humble person would say that if thats the way it is, i am wrong in speaking for god, and it must be how it is.

    while false thinking like this can lead to some horrific things, thinking right on this in such subjects was how the church and such has resolved this issue that some followers for the most part have all twisted up. (and some church people siding with them because why leave a power base unattended?)

    i never claim to be an expert, only that i know an awful lot, which is not the same thing. though i do know that the argument is not over a fact, but over which interpretation in specific is adopted. in this way it becomes the same false social test of socialisms ideology. those that agree are the power base, and when everyone agrees we then have the power that we wanted. otherwise how can we tell?

    thinking that god made the universe just as it is resolves the whole issue. end of story, no discordance. we were wrong in the interpretation in the past, it served its purpose, its the way it is as it is intended if intended, or the way it is, because it is as it is without intention.

    the fact that so much can be mined from such a non issue is incredible, but understandible when merit and thought dont rule, but social power does, and is the lone arbiter.

    maybe i am wrong… but at least, i hope, its a little more interesting…







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