Hillary Clinton’s Candidacy–Female Scientist Says ‘Women’s opinions aren’t taken seriously’

2008-01-11
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“Women and their opinions are often not taken seriously…in my profession, powerful women are very few and very far between. Unfortunately, 90% of the successful women in the 40 and 50-something generations in my field are criticized all of the time, in personal and extremely offensive ways.

“Many men claim that this is not because they are women but is only because of their particular, individual personalities. But how can that be the case? Nowhere near 90% of the powerful men are criticized in this manner. If successful women have strong opinions, the are demonized and considered you-know-whats. The weak, wishy-washy women are sometimes promoted, and in my opinion this may be because they are not threatening. The most strong, successful, and able women are almost never promoted to positions of real power…

“So although I do not like Hillary Clinton’s politics very much, I think it is important to give her latitude in the way she campaigns, I think it is important to give her latitude in the way she campaigns. There is no female precedent, and yet a woman will not and cannot act exactly like a man does. She is breaking new ground and should be given credit for that.”–Betsy Barton, scientist

Betsy Barton, a scientist who frequently reads and comments on this blog, wrote an interesting blog comment response to my recent blog post Gloria Steinem: ‘What worries me is that some women hope to deny the sexual caste system’. I thought it merited its own blog post because her perspective on sexism is interesting. And since my daughter says she wants to be a scientist in Betsy’s specialty when she grows up, whenever Betsy talks about her career, I pay close attention.

I would also ask this–for women who work in male-dominated professions., do Betsy’s observations ring true? And for men who work with a few women in male-dominated professions, have you seen women endure the sexist treatment Betsy alleges?

From Betsy Barton:

I completely agree that voting for Hillary because she is a woman is sexist. Absolutely. I completely agree that Steinem systematically fails to recognize that the feminist movement has now given women many unfair advantages over men. In fact, I completely agree with many of the criticisms made in the comments after this article. It’s shameful that as a public figure, Ms. Steinem does not hold herself to a high standard of evidence, truth, and fairness.

However, it is important to note that Steinem’s intellectual dishonesty itself does not negate every point she makes. She made some points that I believe are true. I do not think that men should now pretend that all the bias is in favor of women. In my opinion, most of the directly government-sponsored bias is unfairly in favor of women. But some of the remaining cultural bias is in favor of men. Here are some of the things Steinem says that I agree with, at least partially:

(1) “Gender is probably the most restricting force in American life, whether the question is who must be in the kitchen or who could be in the White House.”

I don’t know it that it is the *most* restricting force, but it still plays a huge part in people’s lives. It restricts both men and women. (Really, that’s why were all here.)

(2) “…anything that affects males is seen as more serious than anything that affects ‘only’ the female half of the human race”

This is an exaggeration and does not apply to most of the current actions of government, but in my experience, there are elements of truth to it. Women and their opinions are often not taken seriously. Perhaps I can see it so much because I work mostly with men, and perhaps it would be the other way around if I worked mostly with women. But overall, is it not the case that we think the things men traditionally do are “important” and that the things women traditionally do are not?

(3) “…because there is still no `right’ way to be a woman in public power without being considered a you-know-what.”

I think this one is important and true. Of course, my experience is limited, but in my profession, powerful women are very few and very far between. Unfortunately, 90% of the successful women in the 40 and 50-something generations in my field are criticized all of the time, in personal and extremely offensive ways. (more…)

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  • http://whatmenthinkofwomen.blogspot.com/ christianj

    And for the next story we will do one about the blatant anti-male sexism in the teaching profession. Well maybe one day..

  • steven deluca

    There are more powerful women proportionally than there are women dying on battle fields, coal mines, or at sea, … Women are more protected in many ways than are men… take breast cancer vrs prostate – compare the funding. Charged with murder, don’t worry about capital punisment if female. Yes, there are inequites but as long as women don’t care about those inequities men face, why should men worry about those women face?

    I guess I should feel bad about fewer women in power out of the home but when I see so many running the home, or in charge of gender studies, or – by the tens of thousands we find elementary school class rooms run by women – running classrooms that are fairer and more comfortable to girls learning styles, than to boys learning styles. How many women are being supported by husbands or welfare taxes. How many men are being supported by women or taxes. Jt’s hard to take female losses in government so seriously when they have many advantages elsewhere.

    My theory. Early in life girls find protection and expect it down the road. Boys are told to make it or die. Many thousands die at work or suicide or drugs and booze take them out. Two million in jail, and no one looks at that as a gender issue, or as a cemtn floor that keeps women out… but if more men are above the glass ceiling then sexism is assumed. It’s normal for men to be in prison because they are aggressive … but then would it be bmormal to be at the top, because men are more aggressive. I don’t think you can have it both ways. It’s a lot easier to break glass than to bust up cement. We have been discussing the glass ceiling for many years and both men and women are chipping away at it to make it more female friendly at the top, promoting wmoen with less skill and experiencde over men who were in the pipeline longer…

    The only thing done about the cement floor is to add another layer of cement. More boys failing in school, more cells built, fewer fathers in charge of sons, more cells built.

    When women show concern for why so many men are in prison, and so many boys dropping out of school -( without claiming testosterone poisons them – If so does T. fuel men toward the top?) at that time I will worry about Hillary or others being president. Whe we believed women where not doing well in school, ten or twenty years ago, the ONLY reason given was sexism. When boys are behind we hear they are lazy. This black and white view of gender is easy to follow. If men are doing well, it’s sexism. If women are not doing well it’s sexism. If women are doing well it’s their nature. If men are not doing well, it’s their nature.

    Now we are told that the boys failing in school doesn’t matter because men make more money. Well ya, men put in many more hours and take more risks, or endure more danger or pollution that kills them to get more money but that still is not being taught to our teens in schools. Men put in more hours, more years, and the worry isn’t that they are dying from that, the worry is that women live longer and don’t get more social security money. And when they – feminists and others – learn that single women with similar training and senority make more than single men the truth affects nothing.

    We still hear that men get paid more as if they didn’t earn it. Same with politics. A guy busts his ass all his life for top jobs joined by many other men, then a few women show up and want half the top jobs and anything less is discrimination. Well, are they asking to be half the graves in Arlington. Are they asking to lose have the custody battles. Are the willing to give men a break when it’s a he said she said sexual disagreement.I don’t think so.

    Feminist are like children about such things when it comes to being fair to men. The split a pile of chips. One for me, one for you. Two for me, one for you. Three for me, one for you. The never notice how big their pile is, they just see what men have that they don’t and they want half – or more to make up for the evil our grandfathers did to them, they say.

  • shawn

    I’m a PhD scientist working at a large government laboratory. I’m in my late 40′s and in a field not too different from Betsy. I’m well published, at least for someone at a government laboratory. I have numerous academic collaborations, including several in the University of California system (e.g., I’m a visiting researcher at a UC campus).

    I can say that Betsy’s comments are simply ludicrous. To be fair, I’m speaking from my own observations. However, I cannot imagine that our environments are all that different. Although my field is dominated by men (75%), my direct supervisor is a woman. Her supervisor is a woman. Her supervisor is a woman. Her supervisor is a man (must be discrimination).

    These women obtained their positions out of merit. They have the skills, knowledge, and abilities to be successful. They don’t whine and complain about how bad they have it, or if they do, I don’t hear it. Do they receive criticism? Well, yes. Just like everyone else. And they can take it. In fact, they use criticism to improve themselves and their careers. They don’t wallow behind a mistaken belief that as women, they are perfect and can do no wrong.

  • tom of covent garden

    In Men and Women in Interaction: Reconsidering the Differences (Oxford University Press, 1996) Elizabeth Aries presents a meta-analytic overview of research, finding when women and men exhibit dominant speech patterns and behaviors, women are perceived less favorably, by men, and by women.

  • amfortas

    So, on the one hand she is a proven scientist in her field and recognises the blatent hypocrisy of feminism, instead giving some strong support for much of what the MRM seeks.

    Yet at the same time she repeats drivel.

    How can she be taken seriously when she ignores what she previously shows and also ignores the disposition of *society* to not take women’s crimes against men, boys, families and humanity seriously.

    How can she be taken seriously when she repeats the lie and the whine, the mantra that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny by any but the most blatently prejudiced?

    Her arguements are plain childishness : “There is no female precedent, and yet a woman will not and cannot act exactly like a man does. She is breaking new ground and should be given credit for that.”

    Storming the Winter Palace was breaking new gound too, and setting up the NKVD; getting kiddies to denounce their parents and parade them in the streets like the Red Guard did. I suppose we should give the communists credit for all that, by her reckoning.

    This is just a whine from a woman; a woman scientist who conveniently puts scientific principle aside and follows the example of ‘*scientist*’ Nancy Hopkins, and vomits and faints her way into notice.

    No female precedent? Is she blind? Deaf? So in her particular discipline’s books that she hasn’t noticed Margaret Thatcher, Golda Meier, and a host of others? There is no precedent for a President getting another go at the reins of power and access to totty by putting his incompetent missus in the job either. Credit-worthy? I think not.

    Betsy, Betsy. With friends like you, who needs enemies.

  • daveinga

    let us evaluate this phenomenon:

    acceptance to the best colleges guaranteed by gender (female)

    university paid for by grants, gov’t funding, scholarships, etc. almost exclusively directed to females

    hiring preferences forced on companies and especially in the gov’t based on gender (female)

    entire education and career based on handouts and affirmative action quotas every step of the way

    and now no one respects their “professionalism” or takes them seriously?

    a well known fact: respect must be earned

    imho justice Thomas was right. the shadow of AA and forced preferences will follow these “chicks” every step of their careers and their lives; and, there is nothing they can do to make people respect them, their opinions, their “science”, or their counterfeit degrees. maybe that’s what hillery should have been crying about.

    ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ……

    what goes around…..

  • http://www.shatterdmen.com/ shatteredmen

    “and yet a woman will not and cannot act exactly like a man does. ”

    And just how many gender feminist expect men to act exactly the way they do? Worse yet, they start expecting boys to act like girls from the moment of birth.

  • cybro

    When all of womens efforts are geared towards avoiding responsiblity and accountability for any of their actions it follows that nothing they say will be taken seriously. It’s past the point of not taking women seriously. They have become so dangerous to be around that they are not being taken at all.

  • http://www.geocities.com/rogerfgay/ Roger F. Gay

    I’m so happy that women never critisize men. Why can’t men be as good as women? We should all vote for Hillary because she’s a woman.

  • http://www.geocities.com/rogerfgay/ Roger F. Gay

    And don’t forget, the idea and feelings expressed above are based on the observations of a female scientist who never critisizes men and knows what’s best for us; much more than we could ever know for ourselves. She has a perfectly unflawed personality in the midst of so many flawed men – we really need to take her more seriously.

  • BobH

    Somebody should tell this “woman scientist” about Elaine Hatfield, Doreen Kimura and Elizabeth Loftus. These women’s opinions are taken very seriously in psychology.

  • Scott66

    “I would also ask this–for women who work in male-dominated professions., do Betsy’s observations ring true? And for men who work with a few women in male-dominated professions, have you seen women endure the sexist treatment Betsy alleges?”

    How about asking if men who work in female dominated enviroments feel discriminated against?

    In college I worked at a small publishing house that had about a dozen full time female employees and one male full time and one male part time, me, employees. It was an uncomfortable environment for us males. Not only did we have to listen to conversations about menstrual flow and cramps but our opinions were usually discounted. I quit after one semester and have often felt if the sexes had been reversed I probably could have sued for harassment.

    “…anything that affects males is seen as more serious than anything that affects ‘only’ the female half of the human race” This is clearly a ludicrous statement that is so obviously wrong that it would make me question anything this person says. In the US the reverse is true. It is not even close.

  • mruffolo

    I observe that women seem to manage low-risk (physical and financial risk) jobs. For example, when I worked on the floor of the Chicago Board of Trade, in a room of about 3,200 members, only 2-3 women were members. When I worked in a warehouse throwing 70 lbs boxes around, though there were abut thirty people, none were women.

    I observe that in general women to not apply for financial risky or physically demanding jobs. I have not heard tem complain that they are unable to get these jobs or that they are not promoted within these careers.

    In Chicago, I do not see woman work as garbage men, sewer workers, construction, truck drivers, telephone pole people, roofers, landscapers, railroad workers, wind cleaners.

    Feminists would earn my respect sooner when aim to break the glass floor, while they try to break the glass ceiling.

    Further, women’s opinions are taken serious in marriage, divorce, legislation, church, social services, and academics.






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