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The Mary Kay Letourneau Case and gender bias in the enforcement of statutory rape laws and perception of adult-minor sex

2008-02-19
By

When I first heard about Mary Kay Letourneau, the Washington state teacher arrested because she had had sex with a 13-year-old former student, I was intrigued in large part because of her background. I had been a regular watcher of a TV political talk show called Free For All, in which her mother Mary Schmitz appeared, articulately giving the conservative and anti-feminist viewpoint. I had also seen her father, extremely conservative politician John Schmitz, in many TV interviews.

Many people cited the Letourneau case as one showing public gender bias in favor of women as she was not generally portrayed in as thoroughly negative terms as a man who engaged in sex with a 13-year-old – whether boy or girl – would have been. It seemed to me that there was a second irony in that Mary Schmitz had fought the Equal Rights Amendment on the grounds that there were at least SOME instances in which the genders had to be differently treated in order to get a reasonable result and her daughter’s case was being held up as an example of how they WERE differently treated with that difference being unfair to men.

As I researched the case for Crime Library, I learned much more about all of the participants and found what I learned was fascinating. I don’t have to go into it all here because it is in my Crime Library story.

I also found that the case at least pointed out that there are REASONS why an adult woman having sex with a 13-year-old boy could legitimately be looked at differently than and adult man having sex with a 13-year-old girl. I go into those reasons in a chapter entitled Sexism or Legit Distinction?

I would be very interested in any reactions readers of this blog have to my Mary Kay Letourneau Crime Library story. It is at http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/psychology/marykay_letourneau/1.html.

What do you think?

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  • http://www.false-accusers.com TheManOnTheStreet

    “I’m not really certain how this entire area should be handled. It is truly a nettlesome area in many ways.”

    Actually, it is quite simple Denise.

    If an adult, defined as 18 YO or older has sex, concentual or not with a child, defined as under the age of 18 (some states it’s different I know), then it is illegal and should be prosecuted. REGARDLESS OF GENDER OF EITHER PARTY! Plain and simple. As the law is written… not interpretated… not how you “feel” it should be applied…. And most certainly not because the perp is male!

    Being female with, of course, a superior mind than we neanderthals, why is this so hard for you to wrap your head around?

    Still appears to me that you are somehow justifying a female peado versus a male.

    TMOTS

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/denise-noe/ Denise Noe

    What I was trying to do in pointing out certain respects in which the sexes are differently situation regarding adult-child sex was start a discussion.
    I certainly don’t believe adult women should be having sex with minors whether boys or girls. I also recognize the fact that minor girls may well not want adult men prosecuted for sex with them and that this entire area is rife with complexities of all sorts. For example, I read of a family that is having great difficulty finding a place to live because the husband is a convicted sex offender. He was convicted of statutory rape. He served prison time for it. When he got out, his victim was an adult woman. They married and are now raising a family. I read a statement by a woman who is now a grandmother who started her sex life when she was about 12 and recalls that she was “hot for it.”
    I’m not really certain how this entire area should be handled. It is truly a nettlesome area in many ways.

  • fourthwire

    Denise, you’re grasping at straws in your attempts at logic on this topic.

    Statutory rape prosecution and sentencing by gender is based on sexist notions, perpetuated by ignorance and a fair degree of femi-supremacy and/or chivalry.

    Underaged minor females CAN get pregnant. SO WHAT????

    As I pointed out, they are not FORCED TO GIVE BIRTH.

    Sex with underaged females can cause immediate physical pain to them in some cases. SO WHAT?????

    As I pointed out, even in those cases where the underaged females obviously did NOT feel immediate physical pain, the adult males usually get the book thrown at them.

    And so your “valid” reasoning is murky at best…. and I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt there.

    Frankly your “logic” seems dangerously close to that of the usual feminazi idiocy where females MUST be greater victims than males.

    I would make just as “valid” a point as your argument if I claimed that female pedophiles deserved harsher sentencing because their underaged sexual partners had shorter hair than they did.

    Your “valid” arguments were not one bit better!

    Show that you’re in favor of equality in prosecution of pedophiles, or at least be honest.

  • http://www.false-accusers.com TheManOnTheStreet

    Denise,

    I’ll give you credit for at least responding to my fork-tongued post…. And a second point for not telling me that I;
    A) Hate women
    B) Have a small weewee
    C) can’t get laid
    D) must be gay
    E) an a peado myself
    F) All of the above.

    “(Denise) There is no such thing as a “good rape.”"

    Many feminists would disagree with that statement Denise….

    TMOTS

  • jackal1994

    I don’t understand the connection between increased male perp sentences (vs female sentences) and female victim chance of pregnancy.

    If there’s no connection, than why bring it up? The simple fact is that (in terms of criminal punishment) pregnancy is a none issue. Why? Because if she gets pregnant the man will be even further punished for this.

    Also, in terms of breaking a woman’s maidenhead (I’m assuming that’s the pain you’re speaking of) I bet you could find a number of romance books that detail how a girl deflowered by a loving older sensitive man is much more beautiful (or romantic or whatever).

    My wife asked me to read clan of the cave nerds (in exchange for me asking her to read some sci-fi books). Clan of the cave nerds (it’s actually Clan of the cave bears) is some kind of prehistoric proto-feminist romance book. It’s set in the stone age and is about a woman who “disobey’s the customs and learns to hunt & use weapons”. This book was (not only sexually graphic detailing intercourse and oral sex) but dripping with the sentiment of the woman deflowered by an older and sensitive lover. In the primary village they even had specific people who played this role (adult male lovers who initiated young girls and adult female lovers who initiated young boys).

    It seems the points that you’re bringing up are really more on the fringe and not germaine to the discussion of why female perps are treated lightly.

    If you’re going to broach this topic at all, I think you need to re-design the whole thing from the ground up.
    Instead of using a one-size-fits-all solution I think it would be better to have psychologists analyze the teen and see if they are “mature” enough to grant consent. There are some very mature adult-like 13y/o’s (of either gender), and some very immature child-like 16y/o’s.

    As in the case I read here on Mensenewsdaily in which an Italian judge let off a man guilty of having sex with a teenage girl (14 I think). Feminists went nuts when the judge said the “context” of the relationship mattered, and after the girl went through testing and consultations with a counselor & psychiatrist they determined that she understood the details of the relationship, and even enjoyed it.

    I think determining the level of manipulation, guile, coercion, or threats AND the adult-like understanding of the teen would be best for all. But in addition I think leniency in sentencing should be practiced where the teen shows no harm, and there was no sign of coercion, etc…

  • daveinga

    excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses , …

    and often times they don’t get to be on that famous
    predator list on the internet. “not a pedophile”?

    just a poor poor woman misunderstood?
    what a bunch of enabling loons. hard to think clearly w/ that
    victim mentality tatooed on your arses? pitiful.

  • James Meager

    Men and women are EQUAL. However, they are not IDENTICAL. We should recognize, respect, and accept these differences. Denise’s column illustrates one such valid example. That being said, if we’re going to recognize this one, we need to recognize, respect, and accept others as well: men are more suited to military combat roles than women (and thus, due to their service, will likely be promoted faster and higher), men tend to be better at math and science (so women’s underrepresentation in these departments at pretigious universities is completely normal), men tend to have better spatial awareness (which is why there as so few female architects, and why women are such God-awful drivers).

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/denise-noe/ Denise Noe

    TheManOnTheStreet said,

    Sounds to me like Denise is “blaming the victim” here… and we all know, that is a no-no in femi-speak….>>

    (Denise) I was not blaming minor boys by pointing out differences between how they are affected by this crime and how girls may be affected by this crime. After all, is it the fault of young boys — or of anyone — that only females get pregnant? Is it anyone’s fault that male and female genitals are differently constructed? Those things are the result of nature.

    Furthermore, the twisting and turning is that of contortionist purportions! So just come out with it Denise. You think diddling a young boy is fine as long as its a woman. Don’t deny it, you are twisting like a madwoman in justifying it.

    TheManOnTheStreet: So then, do you think diddling a young GIRL by a woman is OK as well? Or is it just OK when a woman does it to a boy… ONLY.

    (Denise) It is NEVER “OK.’

    TMOTS: Just how many times have you gone to the Vaginal Sewe…. er I mean Vagina Monologues so far?

    (Denise) I’ve never seen it.

    You know… “if that was rape, then it was a good rape”….

    (Denise) There is no such thing as a “good rape.”

    Discusting.

    TMOTS

  • http://www.false-accusers.com TheManOnTheStreet

    Sounds to me like Denise is “blaming the victim” here… and we all know, that is a no-no in femi-speak….

    Furthermore, the twisting and turning is that of contortionist purportions! So just come out with it Denise. You think diddling a young boy is fine as long as its a woman. Don’t deny it, you are twisting like a madwoman in justifying it.

    So then, do you think diddling a young GIRL by a woman is OK as well? Or is it just OK when a woman does it to a boy… ONLY.

    Just how many times have you gone to the Vaginal Sewe…. er I mean Vagina Monologues so far? You know… “if that was rape, then it was a good rape”….

    Discusting.

    TMOTS

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/denise-noe/ Denise Noe

    fourthwire said: why not simply ask female statutory rape victims whether they enjoyed themselves, in order to determine whether a male pedophile should receive as lenient a sentence as female pedophiles receive?

    (Denise) I heard of two cases on TV of adult men being prosecuted for statutory rape — over the objections of the minor females with whom they had engaged in sex. This doesn’t say anything to the issue of pain but does say that prosecution of men for this crime doesn’t depend on the wishes of their victims.
    Tom Green, a member of a Mormon offshoot that practices polygyny, was prosecuted for child rape because one of his “wives” was 13 and a half when they “married.” When he was convicted, his victim, Linda Kunz Green, burst into tears. “This is so unfair!” the sobbing woman declared to reporters. “It was ME who fell in love! It was ME who wanted to get married!” On a website she adamantly denied that she felt “raped” by the relationship and noted that they were still together 7 children and some 13 years later. She asked, “If I had been raped, wouldn’t I have escaped from that situation at the first opportunity?” Again, this doesn’t speak to the issue of physical pain but does point out that in the case of an adult man and minor girl, complex human emotions are involved. Young girls may not “feel” victimized by such relationships.

  • amfortas

    I am always impressed with the way you bring attention to the bizarre rationales of our society’s treatment of crimes and criminals, Denise.

    In teasing out all the grotesque rationales that prosecutors, defence lawyers, politicians, feminazis of different shades use we can all find and point out the faults, but buying into them without a clear statement of position is a dangerous pastime, Denise, and you often confuse even me.

    I see a good heart in there, always seeking to understand. I get the impression of a very slightly tortured soul, at least a soul that is short-sighted in a darkened room, touching the walls anxiously, seeking a doorknob. Grabbing onto some object here and there and exploring with fingertips is all very well but perhaps you grasp and take to your own things best left regarded with suspicion.

    Grasping the knobs outlined in your article (very nicely written, by the way) and all so easily demolished by the erudite folk here shows the dangers inherent – losing a valued readership. That would be sad.

    For a woman with such a firm appreciation of crime and the distorted minds of criminals, you do seem to have a mote or two that needs some introspection.

    Whether the ultimate discovery of every last factor leading to a crime; every last issue to do with the execution of a crime; every last impact of a crime on its victims is exposed and discussed and argued for or against, it means nothing if the result is ‘finely tailored’ justice, that is grossly biased along gender lines.

    We end up with Versace or Gucci justice paraded on a catwalk.

  • fourthwire

    Denise will have to comment tomorrow evening (time constraint). My disagreement with you concerns the word “valid” in your quote below:

    “Denise: “Again, fourthwire, I was pointing out valid differences in how the genders are biologically situated in these cases but not suggesting that the absence of pregnancy or the unlikelihood of physical pain in boys means that we grown-up women should have carte blanche to enjoy ourselves with them. There are other sorts of harms.”"

    Later….

  • steven deluca

    Denise. If she gets PG she can abort. My brother was 14, the girls 17 or 18, all the courts wanted to know was when could he pay child support?

    If he decides – the boy getting a woman PG, to be a “father” then what. Or what if as a boy he really doesn’t believe in abortion, but he has no say? What if he feels obligated to support a child that might not want anything to do with him? These things are not simple and best to prevent.

  • steven deluca

    And when the 13 year old boy learns from the adult female that she gets away with having sex with him, and then when he is her age and has sex with a 13 year old girl… then what? His sexual abuse lent him toward harming a girl and himself and few see the seductress who used him … as part of the cycle of violence.

    And what the hell does it teach children when they see that a man’s touch defiles, and a woman’s touch “Turns him into a ‘man’” What does it teach boys and girls about male bodies… It causes adults to grow up to think that she was more of a victim because the dirty, disgusting gender called it what it was, sex, and not “Romance” … such a sweet boy, I felt a need to protect him while having sex with him? … OK, no problem? Because you used the “Romance Excuse” – like the abuse excuse, a pass for women but never for men.

    As longs as we teach that men are dirty, compared to women, boys will grow up to become the self-fulfilling dirty man who doesn’t feel equal to a woman and therefore sticks to girls.

    As long as we let women off easier for all crimes, we give the message to women that “it’s ok” to molest boys. A boy who finds a sexually agressive women while in an impressionable stage of his sexuality might not be happy with a “normal” females when he is married as an adult.

    How do you go back from a woman pulling off your pants and “kissing you all over” at age 13 to a woman who has “headaches” – what if his wife is one of those women who after the honeymoon is over needs to be “seduced” (bribed, begged,flattered) Evenif is she is moderately aggressive the thrill of a woman who wants the boy so much she will risk danger to get him, might not be part of his adult life and missed by him, while he judges his partner unfairly.

    For me, sexually abused as a a child, to see women not even bother to confront women who “use” boys – to see women not charged, to see so many women get a free pass for sex crimes (Or slapping, or hiding the children from fathers) is a pattern that must stop if women really want men to see them as equals – equals in responsibility, equals in crime.

    If 13 is OK for a teacher, or not so bad, , what about 11, or 10? If you are letting women get a pass for 13 you will mildy scold if they go to 12?

    And are we really going to have different laws for women than for men. Are we really going to continue to protect girls, but not boys?

    The problem with growing up with a double standard is that it feels comfortable and you have less chance of seeing the need to change it.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/denise-noe/ Denise Noe

    Denise: “However, the fact that a 13-year-old boy enjoys sex with an adult woman doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be a crime.”

    fourthwire: Bingo! Equal time for equal crime, Denise.

    Except that too many people are too ready to believe that diddling boys causes no damage, but diddling girls does.

    Denise: “Again, fourthwire, I was pointing out valid differences in how the genders are biologically situated in these cases but not suggesting that the absence of pregnancy or the unlikelihood of physical pain in boys means that we grown-up women should have carte blanche to enjoy ourselves with them. There are other sorts of harms.”

    fourthwire: We seem to agree, up to a point, Denise.

    (Denise) I was pointing out that the difference in genital construction means physical pain is a possibility in one case but unlikely to occur in the other. Again, this doesn’t mean the woman who has sex with a minor boy has not done harm or should not be punished as a criminal. As for the girl enjoying a sexual experience with an adult, again that wouldn’t negate the crime. A 13-year-old boy or girl might be enthusiastic to try heroin and very much enjoy the high. An adult who gave it to him or her could not escape punishment on those grounds.

  • fourthwire

    Current (and relevant to the topic!)…….

    From Foxnews.com:

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,331239,00.html

    “Forensic psychiatrist Donna Schwartz-Watts said Ward is not a pedophile, but rather a childlike victim suffering from personality disorders and a repressed childhood. Schwartz-Watts said the minister’s daughter lived a sheltered life but really was a “free spirit” who never got a chance to break away from her family.

    Prosecutors painted Ward’s crimes in a harsher light and said she violated the trust that parents place in teachers.

    Some of the victims’ families attended the sentencing but did not speak during the court hearing.

    “I just feel like justice has been served,” the sister of one victim said after the hearing. “We’re just glad that it’s all over.”

    The Associated Press does not normally identify victims of sexual crimes.

    Ward’s lawyer Donald Hocker cited the psychiatric testimony in asking for home imprisonment for his client. Hocker said Ward will be vulnerable to physical and emotional abuse at the hands of other prisoners.

    “It’s an awful case with awful consequences, but Allenna Ward is not an awful woman,” Hocker said in court. He declined to speak to a reporter after the hearing.

    Ward was sentenced to 15 years in prison for each lewd act count, but the punishments were suspended to six years. She also was sentenced to six years on each second-degree criminal sexual conduct count. The sentences are to run concurrently.”

    Do you believe that a MALE pedophile would have his three separate 15-year sentences suspended to one 6-year sentence?

    Thank the feminazis and the chivalrists……….

  • fourthwire

    Denise: “There certainly ARE dangers that afflict both genders. I agree that minor boys lack the “emotional or mental maturity to deal with adult sexual partners.” I was just pointing out that in one very important respect — pregnancy and childbirth — the genders are very differently situated.”

    fourthwire: “Differently situated”? How so?

    Pregnancy remains a CHOICE, Denise.

    Female minors are not FORCED to give birth in this nation.

    And so any “harm” that comes to a female minor through pregnancy is her and her parents’ CHOICE.

    Risk of pregnancy has little to no bearing on the seriousness of the statutory rape involved, which is likely to be equivalent whether the statutory rape victim has a penis or a vagina….. except in vaginized societies like America’s where women’s perpetual victimhood begins early and males are devalued, even as children.

    Denise: “The fact that boys cannot become pregnant doesn’t mean that they should be engaging in sex at tender ages. ”

    fourthwire: Certainly not engaging in sexual intercourse with adults……

    Denise: “However, to say it doesn’t make any difference seems to fly in the face of an important physical reality.”

    fourthwire: Actually, it does not make any difference, except to those individuals who value boys less than girls.

    There are no “important physical realities” defining statutory rape from a gender perspective, except in the minds of those people infected by femi-supremacy or misguided chivalry.

    Boys run risks from sex with adults, just as girls do.

    Boys cannot become pregnant and girls do not HAVE to carry a pregnancy to term, even if they can be permitted to do so by choice of their parents.

    I would guess that in some states girls can opt for abortions even if their parents chose otherwise.

    Denise: “The point is that an adult man having sex with a 13-year-old girl is likely to cause her pain but the reverse isn’t true.”

    fourthwire: Sexist nonsense, Denise.

    As the matter of fact, more than one man was sent to prison for diddling his children’s babysitter IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT SHE ENJOYED THEIR SEXUAL ACTS TOGETHER TREMENDOUSLY……

    So much for the “pain” involved, eh?…..

    Who TOLD you that an adult man having sex with a 13-year-old girl is likely to cause her pain?

    If the man had sex with her, but did not penetrate her, how likely would he be to escape a more severe prison sentence than a female pedophile, do you believe?

    And besides that point, you need to draw a distinction between PAIN and DAMAGE.

    Girls and boys who feel little or no PAIN from sexual intercourse remain susceptible to DAMAGE (emotional, mental, or physical).

    The hoax of that female statutory rape victims MUST feel pain is simply that, Denise.

    And if it weren’t a hoax, then why not simply ask female statutory rape victims whether they enjoyed themselves, in order to determine whether a male pedophile should receive as lenient a sentence as female pedophiles receive?

    Women are all over “equality” when it suits them, Denise.

    EQUAL PROTECTION only when it suits them.

    And EQUAL RESPONSIBILITY apparently NEVER…… or rarely enough to applaud it when the occasion shows itself.

    Female pedophiles cause every bit as much damage as male pedophiles, Denise. And so they ought to receive comparable sentences to male pedophiles….. except to the femi-supremicists and misguided chivalrists…….

    Denise: “However, the fact that a 13-year-old boy enjoys sex with an adult woman doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be a crime.”

    fourthwire: Bingo! Equal time for equal crime, Denise.

    Except that too many people are too ready to believe that diddling boys causes no damage, but diddling girls does.

    Denise: “Again, fourthwire, I was pointing out valid differences in how the genders are biologically situated in these cases but not suggesting that the absence of pregnancy or the unlikelihood of physical pain in boys means that we grown-up women should have carte blanche to enjoy ourselves with them. There are other sorts of harms.”

    fourthwire: We seem to agree, up to a point, Denise.

    We apparently disagree concerning the notion that “pain” is more relevant than “risk” to minors, not to mention “damage”.

  • Dustball

    Denise, I’m fairly certain that most people can tell the difference between male and female, even from a very early age. Whether the offending person is a male or female, or the victim male or female is not the point that should be made. Allow me to illustrate below:

    What we have here is a clear case of..

    ..an ADULT taking advantage of a CHILD.

    ..an ADULT having sexual relations with a CHILD.

    ..an ADULT escaping justice because of a BIASED court system because of the ADULT’s gender.

    ..a CHILD, PARENTS and a SOCIETY denied justice because of that bias.

    That is what we have. And it is disgusting.

  • http://www.conklin.com/site/edwin fivewire

    Denise you line of thinking gave mine two children to the civil ex-wife.
    my wife at the time got pregrant by 15 year. She still got the children.
    If the judge ever runs for re-eleation I will make it an isuse. for the
    other side.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/denise-noe/ Denise Noe

    fourthwire said,

    Denise, you mention the physical and psychological risks of pregnancy as if that’s more relevant than the physical and psychological risks inherent to sex with minors (which includes such physical risks as HIV/AIDS and other STD’s) not to mention the fact that minors generally do not have adequate emotional or mental maturity to deal with adult sexual partners.

    (Denise) There certainly ARE dangers that afflict both genders. I agree that minor boys lack the “emotional or mental maturity to deal with adult sexual partners.” I was just pointing out that in one very important respect — pregnancy and childbirth — the genders are very differently situated.

    How gives a rat’s ass that boys cannot become pregnant in THOSE contexts?!?

    (Denise) The fact that boys cannot become pregnant doesn’t mean that they should be engaging in sex at tender ages. However, to say it doesn’t make any difference seems to fly in the face of an important physical reality.

    <>

    (Denise) fourthwire, the point is not to argue that adult women SHOULD be engaging in sex with minor boys. I think it’s pretty obvious that we should NOT be doing so. The point is that an adult man having sex with a 13-year-old girl is likely to cause her pain but the reverse isn’t true. However, the fact that a 13-year-old boy enjoys sex with an adult woman doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be a crime. Kids that age may enjoy smoking, getting drunk, or shooting heroin. Adults who supply children with cigarettes, liquor, and/or illegal drugs are still criminals.

    <>

    (Denise) I believe the law was changed since I wrote the article and adult women-minor sex has been criminalized.

    I STRONGLY disagree…..

    (Denise) Again, fourthwire, I was pointing out valid differences in how the genders are biologically situated in these cases but not suggesting that the absence of pregnancy or the unlikelihood of physical pain in boys means that we grown-up women should have carte blanche to enjoy ourselves with them. There are other sorts of harms.

  • fourthwire

    Denise, you mention the physical and psychological risks of pregnancy as if that’s more relevant than the physical and psychological risks inherent to sex with minors (which includes such physical risks as HIV/AIDS and other STD’s) not to mention the fact that minors generally do not have adequate emotional or mental maturity to deal with adult sexual partners.

    How gives a rat’s ass that boys cannot become pregnant in THOSE contexts?!?

    For that matter who gives a rat’s ass that male and female genitalia have different shapes?

    The state of California is misandrist as hell with their rulings that statutory rape laws should protect only women and small wonder given that it’s traditionally the state of the “fruits and nuts”, not to mention a strong feminazi presence.

    I STRONGLY disagree…..

  • Big shooter

    Enough about equal rights. Lets talk about equal responsibilty.







Right.

Man up.

Buy the book now on Amazon.com. Or listen to Ronnie tell a story at escaping-from-reality.com.

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