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	<title>Comments on: Have Yourself A Theistic (Not Atheistic) Little Christmas</title>
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	<link>http://mensnewsdaily.com/2008/12/23/have-yourself-a-theistic-not-atheistic-little-christmas/</link>
	<description>Men&#039;s Rights Activism, MRA Politics, Analysis, Commentary and Global News</description>
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		<title>By: MrAnthropic</title>
		<link>http://mensnewsdaily.com/2008/12/23/have-yourself-a-theistic-not-atheistic-little-christmas/comment-page-1/#comment-68533</link>
		<dc:creator>MrAnthropic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jan 2009 03:05:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mensnewsdaily.com/2008/12/23/have-yourself-a-theistic-not-atheistic-little-christmas/#comment-68533</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The posters sponsored by the American Humanist Association read, Why believe in a god? Just be good for goodness sake.. &lt;/blockquote&gt; 
 
This is a key argument for atheists: Religion is unnecessary because humans have the ability to &lt;em&gt;reason&lt;/em&gt; their way through every question of behavior. 
 
According to some atheists, subjective differences between Right and Wrong can be derived through legal or ethical processes. If Religion was ever helpful in providing a scaffolding for high-minded notions of Justice and Goodness, it has, in this golden age of Democracy and Science, become a drag on the parade of Human Liberty.  
 
Meekins argues in contrast that Monotheism is a necessary ingredient for discovering a universal ethic of human behavior:  &quot;if God does not exist, who is to say whatever the individual thinks or does is right or wrong?&quot; 
 
This argument did not sit well with James Tracey of Anathiest.net , who &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.anatheist.net/2008/12/a-screed-on-atheists-morality/&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;blasts&lt;/a&gt;  Meekins for &quot;painting a picture of morality in which humans are helpless little babies that cannot reason at all about matters of right or wrong and therefore require a divine hand to set us straight.&quot; 
 
It seems to me that Tracey&#039;s appeal to the wonders of human reason puts him in line with the American Humanist Association&#039;s Christmas reminder to &quot;be good for goodness&#039; sake.&quot; 
 
But if &quot;goodness&quot; is a construct -- as atheists appear to believe -- then there is nothing universal about good or bad or right or wrong.  So, to the extent that notions of &quot;goodness&quot; guide the behavior of atheists, it remains an honor system checked only by the law. (See Woody Allen&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimes_and_Misdemeanors&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;Crimes and Misdemeanors&lt;/a&gt; for an artists&#039; description of what the honor system means in practice.) 
 
Chaos Theory -- in particular the  &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;Free Rider Problem&lt;/a&gt; -- makes short work of any such honor system.  
 
Asking people to be &quot;good&quot; for the sake of &quot;goodness&quot; is no solution the problem, but only encourages the best thieves to rise. 
 
Since the dawn of civilization, religious and quasi-religious doctrines have been imprinted on society through their priests and academies, from the Epicures to Harvard Law School. An anthropologist might say that it&#039;s entirely &quot;natural&quot; for human beings to seek social remedies through religious institutions. This makes sense to me: an ambitious society must control the natural inclination of people to exploit and dehumanize each other. Stable ideas of fairness and justice must be established and promulgated throughout the community. Absent law and order, civilization cannot exist.  
 
Attacking Christianity on the grounds that it is somehow on the wrong side of law, order and ethical behavior is just poor history. 
 
 
 
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The posters sponsored by the American Humanist Association read, Why believe in a god? Just be good for goodness sake.. </p></blockquote>
<p>This is a key argument for atheists: Religion is unnecessary because humans have the ability to <em>reason</em> their way through every question of behavior. </p>
<p>According to some atheists, subjective differences between Right and Wrong can be derived through legal or ethical processes. If Religion was ever helpful in providing a scaffolding for high-minded notions of Justice and Goodness, it has, in this golden age of Democracy and Science, become a drag on the parade of Human Liberty.  </p>
<p>Meekins argues in contrast that Monotheism is a necessary ingredient for discovering a universal ethic of human behavior:  &quot;if God does not exist, who is to say whatever the individual thinks or does is right or wrong?&quot; </p>
<p>This argument did not sit well with James Tracey of Anathiest.net , who <a href="http://www.anatheist.net/2008/12/a-screed-on-atheists-morality/" target="_blank">blasts</a>  Meekins for &quot;painting a picture of morality in which humans are helpless little babies that cannot reason at all about matters of right or wrong and therefore require a divine hand to set us straight.&quot; </p>
<p>It seems to me that Tracey&#039;s appeal to the wonders of human reason puts him in line with the American Humanist Association&#039;s Christmas reminder to &quot;be good for goodness&#039; sake.&quot; </p>
<p>But if &quot;goodness&quot; is a construct &#8212; as atheists appear to believe &#8212; then there is nothing universal about good or bad or right or wrong.  So, to the extent that notions of &quot;goodness&quot; guide the behavior of atheists, it remains an honor system checked only by the law. (See Woody Allen&#039;s <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimes_and_Misdemeanors" target="_blank">Crimes and Misdemeanors</a> for an artists&#039; description of what the honor system means in practice.) </p>
<p>Chaos Theory &#8212; in particular the  <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem" target="_blank">Free Rider Problem</a> &#8212; makes short work of any such honor system.  </p>
<p>Asking people to be &quot;good&quot; for the sake of &quot;goodness&quot; is no solution the problem, but only encourages the best thieves to rise. </p>
<p>Since the dawn of civilization, religious and quasi-religious doctrines have been imprinted on society through their priests and academies, from the Epicures to Harvard Law School. An anthropologist might say that it&#039;s entirely &quot;natural&quot; for human beings to seek social remedies through religious institutions. This makes sense to me: an ambitious society must control the natural inclination of people to exploit and dehumanize each other. Stable ideas of fairness and justice must be established and promulgated throughout the community. Absent law and order, civilization cannot exist.  </p>
<p>Attacking Christianity on the grounds that it is somehow on the wrong side of law, order and ethical behavior is just poor history.</p>
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		<title>By: A Screed on Atheists &#38; Morality &#124; anatheist.net</title>
		<link>http://mensnewsdaily.com/2008/12/23/have-yourself-a-theistic-not-atheistic-little-christmas/comment-page-1/#comment-68529</link>
		<dc:creator>A Screed on Atheists &#38; Morality &#124; anatheist.net</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 19:23:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mensnewsdaily.com/2008/12/23/have-yourself-a-theistic-not-atheistic-little-christmas/#comment-68529</guid>
		<description>[...] my last post I began responding to a piece by Frederick Meekins,Â titled &#8220;Have Yourself A Theistic (Not Atheistic) Little Christmas,&#8220;Â in which he charged that atheists are just as dogmatic in their epistemological assumptions [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] my last post I began responding to a piece by Frederick Meekins,Â titled &#8220;Have Yourself A Theistic (Not Atheistic) Little Christmas,&#8220;Â in which he charged that atheists are just as dogmatic in their epistemological assumptions [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Let&#8217;s examine our assumptions, shall we? &#124; anatheist.net</title>
		<link>http://mensnewsdaily.com/2008/12/23/have-yourself-a-theistic-not-atheistic-little-christmas/comment-page-1/#comment-68522</link>
		<dc:creator>Let&#8217;s examine our assumptions, shall we? &#124; anatheist.net</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 21:42:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mensnewsdaily.com/2008/12/23/have-yourself-a-theistic-not-atheistic-little-christmas/#comment-68522</guid>
		<description>[...] pleasure of reading this, dare I say, wretched article byÂ Frederick Meekins titled &#8220;Have Yourself A Theistic (Not Atheistic) Little Christmas.&#8221; While he begins by complaining about how rabid atheists are trying to elimenate public [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] pleasure of reading this, dare I say, wretched article byÂ Frederick Meekins titled &#8220;Have Yourself A Theistic (Not Atheistic) Little Christmas.&#8221; While he begins by complaining about how rabid atheists are trying to elimenate public [...]</p>
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		<title>By: amfortas</title>
		<link>http://mensnewsdaily.com/2008/12/23/have-yourself-a-theistic-not-atheistic-little-christmas/comment-page-1/#comment-68497</link>
		<dc:creator>amfortas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Dec 2008 02:19:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Tufty, I will see athiests as as &#039;moral&#039; as Christians when there are as many atheist Hospitals and Charities in our cities. &#039;Reap what you sow&#039; is a fine canard to throw from the camp of the idle who sow naught but calumny and claim &#039;goodness&#039; while decrying the ones that actually DO good.

By the way, your use of &#039;phobia&#039; in this issue is sheer mendacity. Misuse of &#039;phobia&#039; is on the same level as misusing &#039;goodness&#039;. It serves only to place you in the camp of the Princess of Lies. Get thee behind where arses are best placed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tufty, I will see athiests as as &#8216;moral&#8217; as Christians when there are as many atheist Hospitals and Charities in our cities. &#8216;Reap what you sow&#8217; is a fine canard to throw from the camp of the idle who sow naught but calumny and claim &#8216;goodness&#8217; while decrying the ones that actually DO good.</p>
<p>By the way, your use of &#8216;phobia&#8217; in this issue is sheer mendacity. Misuse of &#8216;phobia&#8217; is on the same level as misusing &#8216;goodness&#8217;. It serves only to place you in the camp of the Princess of Lies. Get thee behind where arses are best placed.</p>
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		<title>By: Tufty</title>
		<link>http://mensnewsdaily.com/2008/12/23/have-yourself-a-theistic-not-atheistic-little-christmas/comment-page-1/#comment-68491</link>
		<dc:creator>Tufty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 15:37:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mensnewsdaily.com/2008/12/23/have-yourself-a-theistic-not-atheistic-little-christmas/#comment-68491</guid>
		<description>What a horrid bunch of atheophobia - hatred towards atheists for absolutely no reason. Atheists are in fact just as moral as Christians, and not because they have some residual Chritianity - how insulting! In the end, you reap what you sow: you come up with this nonsense, and the response is a growing atheist voice opposing you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a horrid bunch of atheophobia &#8211; hatred towards atheists for absolutely no reason. Atheists are in fact just as moral as Christians, and not because they have some residual Chritianity &#8211; how insulting! In the end, you reap what you sow: you come up with this nonsense, and the response is a growing atheist voice opposing you.</p>
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