Yawning at Hofstra

What kind of men have gang sex with anyone?
Please, what about civility and class?

Once again from Paul Elam, powerful words. True leaders, great leaders, leaders who inspire their followeres to victory, do not choose to lead as much as they are chosen. Show me where to go, and I will follow. I have found my leader.

@ Pax

Are you kidding me? We can discuss civility and class when those things apply to the criminal justice system. These men had their whole lives threatened by a lie and you want to focus on THEIR lack of class?

Please

[...] yet, even the people who care most about false rape accusations seem to find ways to keep rape culture going strong. In his coverage of the case, Men’s News Daily editor Paul Elam writes: In what has become a [...]

@ Paul Elam
You had alredy articulated the ourage just when I found on Drudge Report the false accusation, no name for woman and doubts by police if she will be prosecuted. Link
http://wcbstv.com/breakingnewsalerts/hofstra.rape.case.2.1189029.html

You’ve come a LONG way, baby! Women are now just as disgusting and vile as they (justly, for the most part) accuse men of being. Congratulations on your “progress,” ladies.

But I agree with you, Paul. Men, as a group, DESERVE the treatment we get at the hands of our post-feminist society. We have been our own worst enemies — arrogant, stupid and venal. We have been stupid enough to believe feminists’ rants about how “powerful” we are — and so have done nothing while the power we once had has been relentlessly diminished in the service of the new, feminist order. Bulls have allowed themselves to be made steers — because they have been told that this is what the cows wanted. And, being just as stupid, of course, the cows have come to accept that this is indeed what they want. So, most everyone is getting a trip to the slaughter house.

In effect, under feminism’s perverse influence, women have informed men, “We are going to rape and emasculate you financially, legally, emotionally, socially and psychologically, but you’ll get some “free” sex out of it.” We men, dumb bastards that we tend to be (even the “smart” ones), have responded, “Ok, that sounds fair!”

Men have largely turned into pathetic jokes. Women, now that they are getting what they asked for, are unhappier, more pressured, and less satisfied than they have ever been. They are getting what they deserve, as well.

None are so blind as those that will not see, none so deaf as those who will not hear. I find myself surrounded by voluntary Helen Keller’s.

If only the bill for all of this mess wasn’t inevitably delivered to the kids’ table.

I responded to the “False Rape Accusations and Rape Culture” story linked to above in the comments section. Everyone should voice their opinion there. Apparently they believe that we live in a Rape Culture!! Thats right, they think that our culture actively supports rape!! No longer is it just the Patriarchy, now we have the Rapetriarchy!

The last thing the world needs is another reason for women to be afraid of reporting rape. The problem of rape is far greater than that of false accusations.

Hey, Jay! Thanks for the suggestion about voicing my opinion on the “rape culture” nonsense.

Part of my post (unoriginal): “False rape accusations are the means by which all women keep all men in a state of fear.”

Wow. I came from the topic posted above, and obviously there are a number of men out here on the Internet that have NO CLUE as to the culture they are living in.

Are you afraid to walk to your car once it’s dark because you feel someone might attack you in the parking lot?
Do you lock all your doors at night when you’re home alone because you’re afraid someone might break into your house to assault you?
When you go out to a club, do you religiously watch your drink to make sure you don’t end up like one of your friends: sick and sore and in an unfamiliar place?
If you are sexually assaulted do you expect to be treated well by the hospital/police you report to and are not?
Do you find the circumstances you face after being assaulted to be as victimizing as the assault itself?

Maybe you should check with your wife/girlfriend/mother/aunt/female cousins to see if these apply to them. If they do, we live in a rape culture. Did it not occur to you that possibly she recanted because she realized she didn’t want to be the “gang-raped girl” on campus for the whole time she was at college. Maybe she had consented previously with one or more of the men but in that instance said No and now the police and legal system seemed against her. Maybe she felt threatened by being the new girl on campus and didn’t want to face the scorn of her fellow classmates…the ones that thought she must have “wanted it” or was lying.

Open your eyes. Be a “Man”.

When you’ve gone through centuries of rape and oppression, then you will have a leg to stand on concerning what does and does not constitute a rape culture.

“After all, we shouldn’t imperil the future of a woman simply for committing a possible felony that lead to the false imprisonment and public humiliation of four innocent men.”

Those particular guys are innocent of the crime. But they (and the girl) are guilty of Bacchanalian excess.

That’s why nobody’s shouting over this. It’s embarrassing and none of these people garner any sympathy from men or women.

The key element, though, is the next morning regret/lie/allegation that lead the arrests and bs charges.

What a mess. Maybe Miss Pornstar should do a walking tour of high schools in her community. Wouldn’t that be humiliating? Now there’s justice.

@ Jay R
Part of my post (unoriginal): “False rape accusations are the means by which all women keep all men in a state of fear.”

Are you **** kidding me? What’s worse, being held in a state of fear that someone might accuse you of hurting another person, or living in a state of fear that someone will actually hurt you? How many unreported rapes are there in this country compared to false accusations? Not to mention victim shaming (in this case, the woman who had group sex with 4 men was immediately called “cheapened” by the author of this piece of shit article) that can lead to recanting of rape accusations.

I know being accused of a terrible crime is an awful experience, but to hold it to be a worse experience than the thing actually happening and therefore making it more difficult for real victims to have their voices heard and a measure of justice brought to them is really cruel.

Mike, what about the guys? Since all five of them allegedly “trained” on this girl consensually, where is their shame? Or is that another of those “scorecard” hookup things?

It’s hilarious that you guys just CAN NOT see the point. I am so glad my husband and the other men I know and am around are not so determined to stand up for their “rights” that they ignore the facts of reality.

Next thing you know, Paul will put forth a wordy and self-righteous article “proving” there is no sexual harassment in the workplace, women make as much as men do, etc etc.

Also, how hilarious is it to me that the majority of the adverts on this site are for dating sites? …thanks for the chuckle, guys.

I have trouble finding much sympathy for these guys, because i’m assuming that the girl was drunk/impaired, and taking advantage of someone in that condition is just plain wrong.

And yeah, I also think it’s pretty funny about all the adds for dating sites. MND is probably fortunate that match.com has not
clued in that their ads are shown here.

When you’ve gone through centuries of rape and oppression,

How many hundred years old are you?

@10

Anyone can imagine things to be afraid of. Virtually everything you’ve said is based off of what happens in your imagination. If I’m afraid of space aliens it’s my problem. It doesn’t mean that space aliens have actually done anything to me or that I have anything to worry about.

Have you gone through centuries of rape and oppression? That is a ridiculous argument. My ancestors are from a bunch of countries that have had countless wars with each other. If some of my ancestors oppressed some of my other ancestors how does that affect me?

@ Sean

I think it is a fair bet that the guys were drinking too. Part of the overarching problem is the knee jerk to see women as children and victims. This woman made a choice and ultimately admitted to it. There is no evidence at all that anyone took advantage of her.

In fact, it was clearly her that took advantage of them.

As long as people keep seeing perpetrators as victims simply because they are female, we will keep jailing innocent men.

The woman lied, she was in the wrong, and she obviously has some major issues, BUT these guys shouldn’t be up in arms about anything or expecting an apology from anyone. While technically they may not have done anything wrong, it was very poor judgement and such a dubious activity carried with it a HUGE potential for things to end up badly. Every man that I know would not have participated in anything like this even if it was consensual. The writer, nor these guys should be taking the self-righteous angle. Everyone can take something away from this – don’t get involved with crazy chicks, but more importantly don’t participate in something that society would universally agree is unacceptable just because you find someone that wants to do it.

“Are you afraid to walk to your car once it’s dark because you feel someone might attack you in the parking lot?”

Yes. Since men are the victims of about 80% of murders and physical violence, I would say that I take that fact into account wherever I go.

“Do you lock all your doors at night when you’re home alone because you’re afraid someone might break into your house to assault you?”

Yes, that is part of being a responsible homeowner. Also, keeping a gun in the home is not a bad idea.

“When you go out to a club, do you religiously watch your drink to make sure you don’t end up like one of your friends: sick and sore and in an unfamiliar place?”

The most common “date-rape drug” is alcohol,which women consume of their own volition,if that is what you’re referring to. Numerous studies debunk the idea that anyone is putting anything in the drinks of supposed “drink-spiking victims”.

“If you are sexually assaulted do you expect to be treated well by the hospital/police you report to and are not?”

No. I expect to be laughed at, and told to “suck it up”, or “be a man”, if I ever report a sexual assault. I have been statutorily raped by two women, and just plain raped by another woman. I know about the treatment men receive when reporting sexual assault.

“Do you find the circumstances you face after being assaulted to be as victimizing as the assault itself?”

Absolutely.

Rape is a crime that has been punished by death,castration, and/or long sentences of imprisonment by men the world over for centuries,maybe millennia.

There is no such thing as a “rape culture” anywhere. Even in countries where rape is more common, there are still harsh punishments existing for rapists, if and when they get caught.

You act as though men sit around retelling rape stories to each other and high-fiving each other over it.

Have you ever met a man who had anything but the most abject disapproval for rape or rapists? Men in general are probably more horrified by the act of a rape than women are. Women fantasize about being raped and make their fantasies into movies for lifetime television,men write laws to punish rapists to the full extent that society will accept.

On a side note, this place is becoming a ====ing nest for goddamned feminist agent provocateurs. What the —- is wrong with some of you people?

“Men, as a group, DESERVE the treatment we get at the hands of our post-feminist society.”

Bullshit,we do! If it wasn’t for us there wouldn’t BE any society!

We don’t deserve to have ANY of this bullshit foisted on us.

After everything we’ve done for women and children for thousands of years,building their houses,dying to protect them, inventing all the technologies that have made their lives easier over the years, we deserve to have statues built in our honor and be canonized as ****** SAINTS. Not be sent to prison on a woman’s word because she engaged in a gang bang like a slut and then didn’t want to wear the label she earned for her behavior.

Movies and TV like “Sex and the City” promote promiscuity for both men and women. Then when some people are unable to find a partner, they resort to other means like selling sex. Police in Florida busted dozens of people who had advertised availability on Craigslist.
Fox link to story and includes a link to the pictures. Yet other vilolent crimes continue to rise. Maybe police and prosecutors seek publicity and extra funding. ( In many jurisdictions the DA is elected) Link:
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/state_news/091409_Dozens_arrested_prostitution_bust

Another good article Paul with hard hitting words and – perhaps – just a little confusion. I too look to the day when men can find some guiding Principles that contain their behaviours; and woman can too. Not that such Principles are unknown.

It is becoming all too common for the Prosecutorial knee-jerk to kick the men to an unjust touch while letting the woman carry the ball over the line for touchdown.

But I think your opening regarding the woman could be taken as bias and be offensive to some. “That’s legal and media speak for admitting she cheapened herself by taking on five men willingly on a men’s room floor and lied about it later out of what little capacity for shame she had.”

Yes. I agree. But that applies equally to the five men involved. They have cheapened themselves and seem to have little capacity for shame.

That needed to be said. Clearly. Far more clearly than you do.

Five men and one woman? Consented sex ?

I have never been able to comprehend this sort of thing. Apprehend it, yes, as it seems to happen from time to time. But grasping it? Understanding it? It beats me.

Why would five men/boys want to all have one woman?

What possible erotic potential does it have?

What sort of people would revel in this sort of sexual activity?

I can understand the erotic potential of a threesome, which would be assymetric of course; or a foursome where there are two couples. I can even understand the erotic potential of a room full of writhing bodies. But there is something sinister and perverse about a large number of men and one women.

From her POV, I ‘might’ understand the erotic potential of so many ready and available men, just as I could see a chap revelling in having five naked women in his bedroom. But what can possibly motivate the five women with one man. What can possibly motivate five men with one woman?

Frankly, to me, it is a situation largely involving being demeaned. The four chaps watching one chap with a woman, what are they there for? To tell him what to do? To learn how to do it themselves? Are they scared of being naked with a woman by themselves? Are they waiting their turn to show off?

Where is the intimacy?

Maybe someone can explain this to me.

Perhaps anyone trying to educate me here might say whether they would join with four other men to have sex with one over-used woman.

There are psychopaths and sociopaths around who have no conscience; the have no sense of ‘guilt’; no empathy. They are morally deficient and that pre-disposes criminality.

Feminism encourages this lack of feeling ‘guilty’ – for women, that is. Men are always guilty until proven otherwise and even then…. But the ‘free-pass, no-guilt woman has become a societal menace. As have her protectors in the legal system.

But there are also people around with no sense of shame; no sense of disgust. No Integrity. No Honour. I suspect that the five chaps you talk of are amongst that cohort.

@ Amfortas

All very cogent points. Of course, in retrospect, I could have given mention to the fact that the behavior of the men was, at least in my opinion, as low rent as that of the woman. And indeed, the criticism I got at the Washington City Paper focused on that aspect as well.

But honestly as I wrote that, the sexual boundaries of the participants wasn’t much more than a passing thought. I focused on the girls shame and ‘self-cheapening’ because she was the one that lied, presumably to cover that shame, putting the men in peril.

My guess would be that those clowns were giving each other high-fives when it was over and bragging to anyone who would listen.

Certainly they were good examples of being low rent, but they didn’t react to it by threatening the well being of innocent people. And that may well mean that their standards were even more questionable than hers.

Perhaps all of them should have ended up in some self reckoning, but I know you agree that none of them should have ended up behind bars.

This was Amanda Hess’ description of rape culture:

“Rape culture does not just encourage men to proceed after she says “no.” Rape culture does not simply teach men that a lack of physical resistance is an invitation. Rape culture does not only tell men to assert ownership over whichever female body they desire. Rape culture also tells women not to claim ownership over their own bodies. Rape culture also informs women that they should not desire sex. Rape culture also tells women that saying yes makes them bad women.”

Maybe I can get behind the idea that some of us live in a “rape culture.” But of all the people I’ve known, only a few would arguably have come from such a place that would send them out to the world with a hint of such values… and none of them have been either a rapist or rape victim. I’d be curious to learn where rape culture is such a real and pervasive threat that it needs a name.

Hess’ zeroing in on your lack of rebuke to the boys may be fair enough to point out, but if ones puts aside the post-act accusation and recanting, do we see an example of “rape culture”? Hess does not necessarily point to the 5 guys/1 girl scenario itself as an example, but she does try to defend citing your piece with her last paragraph:
“Meanwhile, the four released men in the case carry no such group-sex stigma when they pose triumphantly outside the jailhouse doors.”

If there had been no accusation of rape, should we still assume the girl’s actions would be viewed through the rape culture lens as being those of a “bad girl”, while the boys would be admired as sexual conquerors? I don’t buy that at all – not on today’s college campuses, anyway. Not the part about the “bad girl.” In fact, I have known some young women who carried no social scars for having reputations for sexual daring (or perversity, pick your term.)

It seems more like a thoughtless “porn culture” rather than a values-based approach to the opposite sex. I wonder how many young people learn everything they know about the sex act – the physical, practical knowledge of “what do I do now that my clothes are off” – from porn, and have to work backwards to achieve a more valuable intimacy with others? Without getting into whether porn is a linchpin in the “rape culture” argument (I would assume the over-educated types say it is, but cannot bother verifying,) I see this – at best, in terms of a cultural critique – as “porn culture” begets “rape culture.” Too much culture if you ask me, and not enough sanity regarding equal protection under the law.

@ Paul: “but they didn’t react to it by threatening the well being of innocent people.”.

That is small comfort to all the other men accused unfairly and incarcerated on a lie when they were not involved in any incident in any manner.

These five men WERE involved and in a ‘suspicious’ manner.

It is the incontinent actions of men like this that gave the power to the Feminist lobby to bring in such draconian treatment of innocent men.

And that said, I certainly do not want them locked up and their names and lives ruined over their poor behaviour.

And, a criticism has to be made of you Paul.

As Editor you speak with an ‘Authority’ like it or not, legitimate or not. To have the words “The Editor of MND” prefacing critical comments in a newspaper brings MND into the spotlight. It behoves you to make your comments and articles FAR more clear and defensible than those of any other contributor here, contributors that you can simply throw off when a criticism appears, so as to protect MND.

I take particular and personal offense to this line in your article – “It reveals a bitter truth that advocating for men is like trying to extend the lifespan of lemmings”

What are we here for? Are we all wasting our time?

Is this a useful Editorial attitude?

Leadership?

Who approves your articles?

@ Amfortas

Perhaps you didn’t understand the line that so offended you.

The fact is that men, despite hogwash about it being “a man’s world” are clearly not wired to coalesce around and ameliorate their own disadvantages. The lack of any real momentum for men’s initiatives, indeed the struggles we still face over 20 years after the first printing of Myth of Male Power, is clear enough evidence of a problem that we cannot continue to blame simply on misandry or feminism.

It is clear to me after enough years of being a student of men’s lives that most of reason for the lack of progress is in the laps of men who won’t fight back and who don’t even think they should.

In other words, acting like lemmings heading for he cliffs.

That is what I see, so that is what I say. And I have naught but to take an honest look at the world around me to find all the defense required for it.

I am never assured of universal agreement. Indeed, I understand the reality of guaranteed dissent with each keystroke. It comes with the territory.

I can’t speak for why anyone but myself as to why I am here. For me, it is clearing the miasma of the gender disharmony of the past forty years and searching for clear air. If that involves the periodic look in the mirror, then I will live with it.

And I am quite aware of the weight of this position. I won’t do anything to lessen it by being unfaithful to my own beliefs.

Paul Elam is quite right…and as for those posters who “cannot sympathise” with someone who has been falsely accused of a crime, I say the following:

Even the idiot Hollywood Execs (who, let’s face it, are the biggest anti-male BLUNDERERS, cancelling good shows and keeping bad ones), these Hollywood types understand exactly what it means to sympathise with those who have been falsely accused and imprisoned. Hence movies like “the Shawshank Redemption”. Oh, but I forgot, he was a man so he “deserves” no sympathy. Yes, my mistake.

Instead we get this howler:

“What kind of men have gang sex with anyone?
Please, what about civility and class?”

It was CIVIL for the girl to falsely accuse 5 guys (at least some of whom we now know she had never met) of a really bad crime like rape?

It was “classy” for her to ruin the lives of 5 men (at least some of whom we now know she had never met) by happily seeing them hauled off to jail for a crime she KNEW never happened?

REALLY?

This is like trying to tell everyone that Al Capone was actually a Public Hero who was really an honest used furniture salesman.

This is like trying to tell everyone that Joseph Stalin was actually a Terribly Misunderstood Public Figure – instead of the cruel murderous vicious cowardly dictator he really was.

Has “sex” become so WORSHIPPED that anyone who even HINTS that something might not be right with it is to be condemned? And in that defence of sex, if someone is shown to have falsely accused men of sexual assault, well, no lie is too awful, no sewer too low to stoop into, in order to defend the SPOTLESS pure-as-the-driven-slush character of modern sexuality!!!!!!!…?

As for this statement:

“I have trouble finding much sympathy for these guys, because i’m assuming that the girl was drunk/impaired, and taking advantage of someone in that condition is just plain wrong.”

You ASSUME she was drunk? What about FACTS?

The FACT is she lied her head off, causing 4 men to be jailed, and a further man to be hunted down like a dog because it’s a FACT none of it happened. We KNOW that at least some of the men NEVER MET HER.

How is never meeting someone “taking advantage” of them? There is no possible logical connection between “never meeting” someone and “taking advantage of” that person.

Once again, as Paul says, we spend our time condemning guys (even males they know to be utterly innocent) in order to exonerate girls we know to be demonstrated liars. WHY?

How often do you have to be duped?

How often do you have to see your reputation – and the reputation of your gender – get massacred before you realise that being lied about is a BAD THING?

These men will have this false allegation follow them FOR LIFE. Their reputations have been utterly RUINED. Their ability to obtain gainful employment has been so badly compromised, in the present economic circumstances, it is likely they will never be able to escape the story and thus never get work, and that’s a fast road to financial ruin.

So – for those who cannot grasp that this is a really nasty thing to happen to them, we see the innocent men who:

#1. never did what the girl said they did;

#2. face instant exclusion from their previous circle of friends (because of reactions like those above)

#3. face being forced to continually face the humiliation of explaining “they didn’t really do it”

#4. face the high likelihood of being unable to obtain employment due to the fear any potential employer has of employing those who have been accused of a sex-crime (even if the accusation can be shown to be utterly false);

#5. face the high likelihood of going broke as they are saddled with education-related debt(s) and (because of #4) they cannot pay them off

#6. face the high likelihood of being unable to find anyone willing to “partner up” with them because of this allegation (so no wife and no kids for them)

and so on and so forth.

Hey, for those of you who STILL condemn the men (now know to be innocent):

CONGRATULATIONS! You have witnessed the COMPLETE RUIN of 4 (possibly 5) men based on your belief of the lies of one nutty girl.

Well Done! Andrea “all men are rapists” Dworkin would be PROUD of you.

Oh, and let’s not forget the OTHER, unnamed victims of this girl’s lies:

#1. the legal system – which will now find it more difficult to secure convictions against those who have actually done the wrong thing

#2. the Police – who look really stupid (as if they needed that)

#3. those who really DO have a genuine complaint about sexual assault, who will find it all the more difficult to find anyone to beleive them (who certainly do NOT need that)

WELL FRIKKIN’ DONE!

Reading down the comments I have read a lot of nonsense probably sent here from a feminist website. Joseph’s comment-

“but more importantly don’t participate in something that society would universally agree is unacceptable just because you find someone that wants to do it.”

particularly small minded and bigoted. Here he is referring to groups sex (in this case one woman and several men). Actually Joseph other peoples sexual behaviour is nothing to do with you and putting forwards your own small mindedness as something ‘society would universally agree’ is just to elevate your own prejudice beyond its true status.

Jpseph we need no sex police like you. What likes and dislikes you have are your business but if other want their sex alone, with one other or in groups is their business.

RStewie: “Open your eyes. Be a “Man”.”

You came to the wrong forum. No one here is frightened or oppressed by yet another woman presuming to instruct men regarding what men are “supposed to be like” or are “supposed to do”. We’ve seen it before countless times and are are monumentally unimpressed. News flash: you do not determine what it means to be a man. That is for men to do.

“When you’ve gone through centuries of rape and oppression”

Oh BOY did you ever come to the wrong forum. There is not a single person here who believes for a moment that you are centuries old. When you are, then you can talk about the centuries of oppression that you have suffered under and expect to be taken seriously.

The “Rape Culture” meme is a fantasy built up around a single fact: Many women find it convenient and uplifting to be pursued by men for sex and companionship rather than having to pursue men. Being the pursuer is difficult and psychologically draining because it consists almost entirely of rejection punctuated by the occasional “conquest” while being the pursued is easy and psychologically uplifting as it consists almost entirely of compliments, free meals and other gifts.

The vast majority of disapproval of promiscuous women comes not from men (who enjoy associating with such women even when they don’t intend to marry them) but from other women who regard promiscuous women as debasing their sexual currency. After all, what need has a man to pursue a largely unavailable woman while there are other women who don’t need to be pursued at all?

Calling this “Rape Culture” is nothing but a reprise of the old feminist standby: Cherchez le Homme. When a woman does something or when women do something, find a man or men to blame. Think on this: female pornography (the “romance” novel) are referred to as “bodice rippers” for the unsubtle rape theme that underpins the entire genre. Male pornography on the other hand, in the vast majority of cases, involves one or more women who desire sex just as much as the men depicted therein.

When women fantasize about being raped and men fantasize about women who just want sex, it’s not men constructing any “rape culture”

The false accuser was Danmell Ndonye, and Rice has already set up a defense with this statement…

“Her actions and her demeanor depict a very troubled young woman in need of some help,”.

Aw, the poor thing! She’s troubled, so here comes the female sentencing discount, that’s if they even decide to prosecute of course.

Porky,

Of course…… I should have guessed.

If you are female, and you try and destroy 5 other people’s lives, it’s not your fault : You simply need help and understanding.

Good Grief, I need to hurry up and get out of this collapsing matriarchy as soon as possible….

” That’s legal and media speak for admitting she cheapened herself by taking on five men willingly ”

And this is the sort of opening statement that we should be striving to excise from our discussion of the topic. It’s useless, misleading, plays into feminist stereotyping of men. Not to mention being the sort of rank moralizing that instantly raises my hackles. Look, if that’s a person’s preferred sexual practice, or even a one off, thats not my business or yours. I certainly won’t line up to be #6, but I’m not going to go all puritanical over multiple sexual partners. That covers me, let’s move on to why it’s a bad idea in general.

1: It adds nothing to the debate. Yes, we get she’s a horrible human being, she perjured herself and attempted to send five innocent men to prison. A sexual kink really doesn’t weight the scales any more.

2: It excludes the men, who by all accounts seem to have participated, leading to:

3: Playing directly into feminist stereotyping of the rape-related legal process. I.E. “women are stigmatized but men aren’t, the courts always blame the victim” etc.

It’s not true, of course, but why throw it in? Why give ammo to teh enemy, while giving us nothing new or useful? To satisfy your own concept of morality? There’s a million ways in which this is yet another clarion call for men to resist our discrimination in the courts. We don’t need (and I personally don’t want) to be burdened with WASP puritanical baggage while we do it. Men’s Rights is not a purview of the christian right. If that’s where you hail from, great, glad you’re with us, but try to keep the focus on what really matters, and leave the bible thumping for the creationist forums.

@ Tarrou

Of course the other criticism I got was that I didn’t sufficiently “moralize” the behavior of the men.

You can’t please everyone.

I don’t think covering this story or writing on men’s issues reduces me to the position of moral relativist. Nor should it. If I can’t point out that sex on a bathroom floor with five strangers is dehumanizing, then I shouldn’t point out that lying about it and putting men in jail is morally inadequate.

Puritanical baggage? Nope. Common sense. This whole thing began with poor decisions. Gang sex on the washroom floor was one of them, and it hardly makes me puritanical to point that out.

I also pointed out in my piece on the Duke Lacrosse case that the accuser, Crystal Mangum, was a drug addled hooker. And she was. Is that more puritanical baggage, or valid information that rightly affects her credibility?

I would not have felt it appropriate to comment on her sexual behavior, except that it was clearly that behavior that set the scenario for the false allegations to emerge.

If I am going to guard myself from feminists who will practice such loose associations with my words, then I won’t be able to write anything at all. I don’t try to appease the mentality of people who routinely claim that any assertion on behalf men is hatred of women.

I’d be glad to thump my bible if I had one, but I am not a religious person. I am as far as the Christian right as you can imagine. But one needn’t be a Christian to see shaky and questionable behavior and take an honest look at it.

I like one of the posters above would not have wished to be the sixth guy. It just would not interest or appeal to me. Actually these days very little does. That said I would not condemn the men. Who knows all the circumstances. May be for some of them this is the closest they have ever got to sexual intimacy with a woman. It could be that in their lives this was the best that was on offer.

May be we need to remember that a man’s sex drive is extremely powerful and does lead a man to folly like getting married. I think it is in the nature of sexual desire that it does at the very least cloud ones judgement.

In fact it is a propelling force that where we rid of it there would be no need for MRAs at all.

I feel genuinely sorry for all you people who seem to think the only “good” kind of sex is between one man and one woman who are in a committed (and presumably) long-term relationship, hopefully a pre-cursor to marriage.

I feel sorry for you firstly because if this is the kind of sex you believe in, then you probably aren’t getting enough of it, and certainly haven’t had the pleasure of being educated by a number of caring, enthusiastic partners in the finer points of love-making, which no amount of porn can instill in you.

Secondly, I feel sorry for you because you cherish an unrealistic image of human beings as sexual animals. Yes, some people are monogamous and only want to have sex with people they truly love and want to spend their life with.

But Most People are Not.

And it is this unrealistic image of human sexuality that twists and perverts people’s healthy and normal sexual appetites into something fetishized, hidden, and shameful.

How many times, in our private lives and in the press, do we see some hypocrite being outed as a “cheat” or a “whore” for following thru on an urge that was so undeniable it caused them to risk (and often lose) their family or their career? High-profile examples come to mind (Gov. Sanford, Ted Haggard and Bill Clinton) but everyone knows someone who did something just as shitty, dishonest, and “shameful.” I can think of three examples of it among people I know in the past year.

If our culture was more understanding and open of “alternative” sexual lifestyles (which are so common as to be the de facto norm) perhaps these behaviors wouldn’t be so repressed and find expression in harmful and negative ways. Perhaps if genuinely poly-amorous people were “permitted” by mainstream society to life the lifestyle that is most fulfilling to them, we wouldn’t be treated to being spectators as a good friend, or even a Sig. Other, destroyed themselves in pursuit of sexual satisfaction.

Surely I can’t be the only one who feels this way? Or perhaps I, along with Gov. Sanford, Mr. Haggard, Pres. Clinton, and millions of others, am just a sicko, a weirdo, a pervert, and, oh yeah, a “cheap slut.”

While “Philosopher Kings” have varying views on gender morality,legal reality is much more strong. District Attorneys (States Attorneys in some jurisdictions) have “prosecutorial immunity” and they also have “prosecutorial discretion” to see if the evidence is strong enough to proceed with a trial
While some DA like Jim Garrison in former President Kennedy assasination investigation haunted Clay Shaw, it was Duke University case that caused prosecutors to be more diligent.
“Don’t get Nifonged” was reportedly one canditates motto for DA, alluding to DA Mike Nifong who headed the very public case. Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Nifong

“Insane rape sheild laws?” Are you serious, Paul? Rape is one the most underreported crimes of all time and this is exactly why! I have no problem with one “false accuser” squeezing under the umbrella the protects legitimate victims than to take away the protection for all of them, that is insane! While I agree that it is beyond repulsive for someone to falsely accuse another (or in this case several others) of a serious crime, it is obvious by the tone of your entire article that you’ve taken this “opportunity” to slam ALL women in general and chastise men for “allowing them” to have any type of power or ability to even make an accusation in the first place. Your disdain for women as a whole is totally transparent as you seem to imply that rape is a made up fantasy that no longer occurs this day in age, I mean how could it right? With all these feminists traipsing about the place emasculating all the poor innocent men? The fact is…THIS ONE girl lied and did horrible thing by accusing a group of men that she was at first so willing to please sexually, maybe because she wants cover up her slutiness, or maybe she’s evil, or maybe she’s crazy, blah blah blah. It doesn’t matter because she was still wrong to do this, but what you have remember is that she is only ONE of the millions of women whom you seek to discredit and strip of their power. Maybe you should move to an Islamic country, their laws would probably suit your viewpoints better.

@RStewie

“Mike, what about the guys? Since all five of them allegedly “trained” on this girl consensually, where is their shame?”

Allegedly? Do have any proof that these guys “allegedly trained” on this girl? I doubt that. Even if they did “train” her, it’s not their fault that this girl willing whored herself out. So, don’t blame the guys for this girl’s bad choice of being a slut. She should be shamed for being a whore and for wasting man power with her bogus rape allegations. It is because of girls like her that real rape victims do not get taken seriously.

“Or is that another of those “scorecard” hookup things?”

Or is that another of those stupid male stereotype labels that man-hating feminists like to put on men who enjoy sex? Besides, I don’t see you condemning women who sell there bodies off for money.

“It’s hilarious that you guys just CAN NOT see the point.”

No, it’s hilarious that YOU can not get the point, since you can’t understand logic and facts, anyway. Feminists like yourself are too stupid to.

“I am so glad my husband and the other men I know and am around are not so determined to stand up for their “rights””

That’s because your husband and your male “cheerleaders” are just a bunch of emasculated, *****-whipped, mangina, eunuchs who love seeking female attention and approval and are willing to excuse women’s bad behavior even at the expense of their own manhood.
They wouldn’t even know what their “rights” are nor would care about the rights of other men.

“that they ignore the facts of reality.”

Men do not ignore the facts of reality. YOU and your feminists cohorts do. You wouldn’t know the facts if they bit you in the ***. You’ve been detached from reality all throughout your “centuries of rape and oppression”.

“Next thing you know, Paul will put forth a wordy and self-righteous article “proving” there is no sexual harassment in the workplace, women make as much as men do, etc etc.”

Don’t blame the messenger for speaking the truth. If that makes Paul self-righteous, so be it. I would rather be self-righteous than ignorant.

Also, sexual harassment is two-fold and hypocritical. That is why it is so difficult to take seriously on a case-by-case basis. A man could get accused of sexual harassment just for staring at a women or even for having the nerve to call a co-worker when she is at home to invite her out for a drink. On the other hand, if a woman finds a co-worker attractive, she wouldn’t see his come-ons as harassment, she would she it as flirting.

The pay gap myth has been debunked to death, but it always seems to fly over your dumb feminist head. Men work more hours than women do and tend to take less time off. Men also tend to take more hazardous jobs which tend to pay more while women tend to take jobs that are less risky like office work and nursing which tend to pay less.

Believe it or not, some women in younger age brackets do tend to make more money than some men in the same bracket due to more women being in college and better job opportunities for women (although one reason for this is because of men being passed over in favor of getting more women into the workplace due to positive discrimination). Then, you have to factor in the money women get from alimony, child support, and other government funded programs which men don’t have the benefit of.

It is usually when women get into their thirties is where the pay gap widens and men make more overall due to women leaving the workforce to start families.

“Also, how hilarious is it to me that the majority of the adverts on this site are for dating sites?”

What does that have to do with the content of the article or with the content of the site itself? Adverts are usually used to draw hits to other sites and to pay for bandwidth on this site. Are you assuming that men only use this site as forum to pick up women? Yeah, right.

“…thanks for the chuckle, guys.”

I don’t find anything funny about all this. If there is anything funny, it is the ignorance coming from you.

#13
RStewie Said:

Mike, what about the guys? Since all five of them allegedly “trained” on this girl consensually, where is their shame? Or is that another of those “scorecard” hookup things?

Yes, everyone’s guilty. Their behavior is outside of my comprehension. No sympathy from me. But there is a dynamic here that you seem to be ignoring.

I think it’s important to acknowledge that, unlike any of the men, the woman acted as an individual vis a vis a group. If she was enveloped by the desire to have ritual sex with five braves, she had to make a compact with each and every one of those men, and with the group as a whole.

I could speculate that the men made a tacit agreement to depart as a group from conventional public behavior. I call it “Bacchanalian” because I think the roots of this sort of thing can be informed by anthropology and evolutionary biology. Five young men having public sex with a single woman is an archetypal image. You could see how inclined individuals might become prone to their own animal impulses when confronted by an opportunity that roughly simulated some secret erotic fantasy.

That’s how I see it: as the “object” of the men’s collective behavior, the woman must take special responsibility for having created the conditions wherein the group coalesced in the first place. That is, if the woman were not there to make it happen, no sex party would have occurred in the first instance.

The same cannot be said of any one of the individual men. This is why I say there is a one-to-many relationship at work here.

Of course the men were all participants, and so all are culpable. But ignoring the fact of the woman’s unique control over this kind of situation is not reasonable.

Of course our politicaly incorrect ideas are going to attract attention from other media outlets. I thought this is what we wanted. I thought we wanted this debate on the front burners of political discourse. Don’t fall for the shaming language. They can pick apart specific lines from our articles all they want, it is the overall, far reaching ideas that matter in the long run. Lets not be afraid of the debate, even with feminist. No one said this wasn’t going to be messy.

I’m with you on blaming the victims. What the hell were they thinking with – their d*cks?

Dudes, get a clue:

Save yourself for your legally married wife.

Go Celibate!

“If our culture was more understanding and open of “alternative” sexual lifestyles (which are so common as to be the de facto norm) perhaps these behaviors wouldn’t be so repressed and find expression in harmful and negative ways. Perhaps if genuinely poly-amorous people were “permitted” by mainstream society to life the lifestyle that is most fulfilling to them, we wouldn’t be treated to being spectators as a good friend, or even a Sig. Other, destroyed themselves in pursuit of sexual satisfaction.”

Being more understanding and open to alternative lifestyles is what caused these men to be falsely accused of rape. Monogamous sex, inside of marriage, is the safest route for men not to be falsely accused of rape by a woman because of the court’s bias against men.

Personally, I see nothing morally wrong with group sex, but I wouldn’t advise it,legally. Not for men,anyway.

“Rape is one the most underreported crimes of all time and this is exactly why!”

How do you know it is? I’ve never seen the results of any legitimate scientific study that claims rape is more under-reported than any other crime. If I had to guess, I’d say domestic violence against a man by a woman is the most under-reported crime. But that would simply be conjecture.

the only reason the woman,who is named in the following article,recanted is because there is a video.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,552300,00.html

I have no problem with one “false accuser” squeezing under the umbrella the protects legitimate victims than to take away the protection for all of them, that is insane!

Yet this is precisely what rape shield laws do to the accused: take away the protection that protects even serial killers and mass murderers. It even prevents the media from naming people who make false allegations of rape without providing the least skerrick of anonymity to the victims of false allegations.

Rape shield laws are a vile and disgusting destruction of the very bedrock of our justice system. The right to a fair trial.

@Mashed;
Your point is well taken about “rape shield” laws. Like the Queen in Alice in Wonderland “Verdict first, trial afterwards”
On Mike Nifong of Duke case comment”
Now we can ‘Nifong’ someone when we want to trump up criminal charges based on flimsy evidence allegedly for political purposes. In short, when we want to screw up someone’s life.”[5]

Two… er, no, three key issues in Paul’s article:

1) The question of how the law treats men. Isn’t this really what Paul’s article was about? The rest, really, has nothing to do with it.
2) But seeing as Washington city paper did drag “rape culture” into this, then we can be specific in our response… the morality of the men and the woman is in the sewer. The entire western culture is at a moral crisis point. This is a separate, complex topic. If Hess thinks that she has the correct interpretation of all of this, then she is being simplistic and wrong.
3) Case in point… Hess discusses “rape culture” but never considers what role “slut culture” might have to play in all of this. If there is, supposedly, such a thing as a “rape culture” (whatever that’s supposed to mean), then at least by the same tenuous threads of feminist “logic”, we can more compellingly assert, with all the feminist hype in empowering women, that there exists a “slut culture” that lies at the heart of it all. “Rape culture”, presuming a culture comprised in large part of obsequious, chivalrous gollums who are supposedly capable of rape, is not as compelling as a “slut culture”, with feminism encouraging women to go grrrl, you can have it all, without any consequences. “Slut culture” is somehow more real in this day and age than is “rape culture”. The very story inspiring Hess’s argument suggests that the law is applied in favour of slut culture over rape culture. Hess is putting the cart before the horse… slut culture comes first, rape culture is the response.

Newsday, a newspaper local to this crime, has taken it upon themselves to remove the numerous online comments linked to the articles about this event as they were overwhelmingly against the lying female perpetrator and were critical of the district attorney for her lack of action. The newspaper also closed all further comments to any article linked to the story. If you link to Newsday (you won’t stay long as the new format sucks) it is easy to see and very well known that this paper is obviously against any opinions negative to women and always covers up the ethnicity of criminals unless they are non-minority males.

My comment to the newspaper:
Where is the outrage? This has gone on too long. Double standards are killing this country one man at a time. Those men faced up to twenty five years in prison and if it were for the real criminal in this case not recanting her lies and instead continuing her ruse through a trial, these guys would have been ruined for life. The weight of her crime should equal that of the crime of which she falsely accused those men. Why is her picture and name not on the front page of this newspaper? Why is D.A. Rice not prosecuting this criminal?

Not too harsh is it Miss Andrist?

Feminists routinely make reference to rape culture, but no-one is making any reference to slut culture. So if it is politically incorrect to make reference to a slut culture, then it follows that the politics in power, the politics mantracizing the phrase “rape culture” is actually the driving force of the slut culture, which ultimately lies at the heart of all of this. It also follows that the politics of feminism is directly associated with “slutism” and the immoral conduct of women. Perhaps we should start to mantracize the phrase “slut culture”, because that’s really what it is, isn’t it?

Jezebel.com also took and interest in this piece, also reducing any and all arguments against it to the use of the word “cheapening” in describing Ndonye’s behavior.

Here is my response to them:

As the author of the Men’s News Daily piece I must say it has been amusing to watch a scattering of internet ideologues struggle to comprehend it. And I must admit some empathy for them as I struggle to comprehend the attempts at logic proffered here and other places in response.

First we have the oft bemoaned double standard of how women’s appetite for casual or “deviant” sex is met with derision while the same in men often results in high-fives and bragging rights. It would be a fair enough complaint if I had even commented on the men’s sexual conduct. I didn’t.

But for the record, I don’t see any difference between the men and Ndonye in the events that preceded her allegations. All of them were engaging in risky, questionable and yes, self-cheapening conduct.

But as the men had already been falsely accused of behavior that far exceeded irresponsible sex, handcuffed, incarcerated and publicly humiliated it seemed to me that whatever their actions, they had more than paid the price for them. Tossing invective at the falsely accused on the way out of jail cells hardly seemed appropriate or even responsible.

But speaking of double standards, I also need to point to the incredulity of taking an indignant stance at my assertion that she cheapened herself with her actions, and then also bemoan that those actions were presented to her on a video recording as a refutation of her story.

So, women are to be freed from double standards of sexual conduct, but suddenly are replete with old school feminine modesty and vulnerability when viewing a few seconds of themselves engaging (quite enthusiastically, I understand) in that freedom? And of course they need our protection from it, even when it refutes a false allegation that could effectively destroy the lives of innocent men.

You have got to be putting me on.

I note from above:

“If reporting a rape means lawyers will force you to watch your own “sexcapade” until you “crack” no wonder more women don’t report it.”

This shockingly obtuse and convoluted interpretation of what happened is precisely what breeds the “us and them” mentality so bemoaned by Hess and others.

Ndonye was “forced” only to watch the clear and damning evidence of her lies. And it wasn’t until she ’cracked.’ it was until she told the truth.

Rape and false allegations are both serious social problems. And I agree that making them compete with each other for primacy in social consciousness goes nowhere, which is why Jezebel should have put up a “dead end” sign by the second paragraph of this piece.

These guys are most likely simply following the advice any decent lawyer would give them. When a woman falsely accuses you of committing one of the crimes where males are presumed guilty, you dare not say anything negative about her, even when you can prove it is undeniably the truth.

A “culture of rape” is code for male guilty, female victim, facts irrelevant, pre-judgement based on group membership. Never mind the fact that “unreported rape” flourishes in prisons across the world, but hey, those men “deserve it”, even if they are there as the result of a false accusation from a member of the eternal victim class.

When you’ve been falsely accused, the first thing you want is get the charges dropped, not retaliation against the false accuser. In our “culture of rape”, that translates into saying nice things about her, referring to her false accusations, not her, as “reckless” at worst. Otherwise any politically correct D.A. will use taxpayer money to charge you with something for not believing in the “culture of rape”, i.e. that women are always victims even when they are the perpetrator.

Assuming a male succeeds in getting the charges dropped, the best thing he can do for himself is to then keep quiet, lest the “culture of rape” have another round of attacks against him. That is why you never hear anything from the victims of Crystal Mangum and her partner in crime Nifong, because our culture is in denial of the undeniable fact that a male can be the victim of a female.

The only exception would be if the male had not only done nothing illegal, but nothing immoral as well, and most importantly his wife had suffered some considerable negative consequences, thus presenting a female as victim, the only allowable circumstance in a “culture of rape”.

One of the great myths of feminism is that men look out for other men, in disregard of women, when in fact the opposite is nearly unanimous. My guess would be that more men would take the side of the false accuser in this case, even after the truth is out.

In fact, unless there is a fee involved, this is pretty much it, right here, right now. Men who have been falsely accused in the past, usually by an ex-wife who wants his savings and income while giving nothing in return and doesn’t even want to “allow” him to continue as a father to his children, will make statements that support other falsely accused men, and that’s pretty much it. There are notable exceptions, but I know I’m at least somewhat guilty of that.

Meanwhile, PC dictates that we all pretend evil men routinely gang up on innocent women and victimize them, even as living this lie presents no viable future for our children and society, just as the Commies who invented PC planned all along. Problem is, there is no shortage of useful idiots watching their idiot boxes thinking whatever they are told to think. Then comes another PC dictat, i.e. thou shalt not speak the truth for fear of “offending” a member of the victim class who is dumb enough to be a follower of PC, which roughly translated means expose a PC lie and we’ll attack you.

On the subject of the male sex drive, just take a look around you right now. Anything and everything there, including you, would not be there were it not for men having a very basic need for sex, roughly on par with a woman’s need for shelter.

The dawn of civilization itself was that same instant when the male sex drive was channeled to benefit society by way of the family. Woman gives man his own children, and he will do anything and everything for her and them, even die for them. Works great for everyone.

Except now, in the age of government control over everything, men are expected to do all of that for nothing, save whatever casual sex he can muster on a bathroom floor along with four other guys, then hoping he doesn’t get arrested and raped in prison because the entitled woman feels remorseful afterward. Alas, to expect otherwise in a matriarchal feminist jurisprudence based society such as ours is absurd.

“I have trouble finding much sympathy for these guys, because i’m assuming that the girl was drunk/impaired, and taking advantage of someone in that condition is just plain wrong.”

You ASSUME she was drunk? What about FACTS?

Wow, I thought I was reading something on MEN’S News Daily, not on Oprah. Having already had one very mild comment not make it past the censors here, I expect this one also might not, but I feel compelled to make it anyway.

Replacing law with whether or not one feels sympathy for the accused is the ultimate in feminist expression. The issue here is not whether what was done was admirable or the sort of thing which elicits “sympathy”, but whether or not it was a CRIMINAL action.

In the aftermath of the Duke non-rape debacle, many people took the stand that “well, they might not be guilty of ‘rape’, but they certainly must be guilty of something, so they still need to be punished.” I see a load of that same kind of mentality expressed here.

These 5 “young men” (barely), most of them not yet out of their teens, raised in a culture which shoves sex in their faces 24x7x365, were apparently invited by an attractive young woman to engage in what the culture at large has taught them is the peak of all human experiences – sex. We certainly know their names and ages, but we know little else about these guys. How many of them were raised by single mothers? How many of them have had absolutely no moral guidance in their lives other than the totally corrupt public education system? How many of them actually did have sex with the woman? A couple of them claim that they didn’t, and it is quite possible that the one who saved their lives by recording it didn’t either.

Yes, all these so-called “good moral Christians” here are stampeding to the rock pile to stone these guys. Each little detail of this woman’s lies seems to have to be demolished individually, instead of looking at the fact that most of the story was a lie and tossing it out in whole and then constructing what really happened one fact at a time.

Once again, one of the few intelligent comments made in this thread –
You ASSUME she was drunk? What about FACTS?

Hey, they don’t need no steenkeeng facts, they have their bigotry!

Unfortunately, one aspect of the poorly-named “rape culture” narrative is true – that we live in cultural denial of women’s sexuality and sexual agency. The entire concept that a young woman might have found the prospect of several young men wanting her to be quite exciting and thrilling will not be allowed in the discussion at all. Both the conservative traditionalists and the “rape culture” narrativists only allow one role for the woman – that of victim – and one role for the young men involved – that of “abuser”, perpetrator, victimizer.

It is utterly insane to castigate 5 young men for acting in a way that is somewhat consistent with the cultural norms they have been taught, and lay all of the blame squarely on them while keeping not only the actions and role of the woman invisible, but actively denying the cultural influences which are completely devoid of the high-horse morality being preached here. These are not your sons, and there may be men here who would have taught their own sons better values, but were prevented from doing so by the family courts.

Whether the behavior of these guys was immoral, immature, unwise, or just plain stupid is not the issue. The issue is – was it criminal?

Anyone who endorses the treatment they received is advocating criminal penalties for violating that person’s moral value system. And, that value system is based on a fundamental denial of reality – that women cannot be anything but victims, and if they do something bad then some man must be blamed for it.

When the day comes that one of these people gets thrown under the bus in the same manner, I am sure that they will find as little “sympathy” for their situation as they have for others, and will undoubtedly be bewildered that such is the case.

Statement from Joy Watson, Candidate for Nassau County District Attorney on the False Rape Claim at Hofstra University

(Mineola, NY) — September 19, 2009 – “In the aftermath of the falsely reported Hofstra rape incident, the accuser must be immediately charged,” said Joy Watson.

“Whether or not there are circumstances in her background warranting leniency is a matter to be considered in structuring an appropriate disposition or sentence. The circumstances should not prevent the Nassau District Attorney from holding the false accuser accountable. Her delay is a signal to the public that such acts are tolerated in Nassau County.

There is no question that a crime was committed here. There is no question who committed the crime. These young men had their reputations and lives negatively impacted by these false allegations. A delay can only be seen as an injustice to these young men or a ploy to get more news coverage for the District Attorney. In either case, justice is not being served. The five young men who were falsely accused deserve nothing less that a district attorney who will stand up to protect their rights.

The delay also smacks of a publicity grab at justices’ expense, as we are six weeks from the November 3 election. I think the public can see right through our current District Attorney and see where her priorities lie,” Watson added.

———
Watson, a 20-year veteran former Nassau County prosecutor and now State Supreme Court law clerk, is running on the Republican and Conservative lines on November 3. She is the former bureau chief of the Nassau County Sex Offense and Domestic Violence Bureau. Visit http://www.joywatsonfornassauda.com.

@52

It is amazing how some folks seem to think that their sympathy matters. What possible difference could my sympathy make? I wouldn’t be proud of myself if I did what they did but that has nothing to do with any conversation about whether or not a crime was committed.

We need a law that says “knowingly making false accusation of ANY crime shall carry the mandatory incarceration penalty of the crime alleged.” THIS would restore some justice to our current INjustice-system. We also need to educate folks that the law deals in technicalities, and that words mean things, no matter what is being “felt.”

@ Joy Watson
“Watson, a 20-year veteran former Nassau County prosecutor and now State Supreme Court law clerk, is running on the Republican and Conservative lines on November 3. She is the former bureau chief of the Nassau County Sex Offense and Domestic Violence Bureau. Visit http://www.joywatsonfornassauda.com.”
That’s one for the ages. A female candidate for prosecutor dares to defy the “conventional wiadon”. Let’s hope that your enemies don’t take the low road and try to dig dirt on you to feed to the media.
A female candidate for mayor of our state capital just withdrew, even she had won the nomination” because the dirt they dug up on her.
Update: She is sitll on the race
Annapolis mayoral candidate still in race
Baltimore Sun – Nicole Fuller – ?47 minutes ago?
The Annapolis mayoral candidate, whose spokesperson announced her withdrawal from the race Friday amid revelations …
Pierre withdraws from mayoral race Arundel Muckraker
Pierre abandons race after legal history surfaces Annapolis Capital
Annapolis mayoral hopeful bows out Baltimore Sun
all 14 news articles »Email this story

Any man who feels threatened by feminism, and thinks all feminists are man haters, are just as pathetic as the women who falsely accuse innocent men of rape.

Maybe these cheap guys don’t care about her “lies” because they really did rape her.

@ armyvet

So when did she lie? When she made the report, or when she recanted it?

This is a perfect example of the lasting negative impact of a false allegation. Once the finger has been pointed, many people will believe it is true, regardless of exoneration and even regardless of the accuser turning the pointed finger toward herself.

@Ageb
What about communism , feminism, fascism etc. Does your analogy apply there also?

My issue is that no one actually knows what happened that night, and because all the charges are dropped, no one is probably going to actually look into it and find out.

Think about it: there was probably a reason why that girl said those men raped her. Maybe she honestly feels like they did, and that they pressured her into having sex. Maybe she said yes, which could be considered ‘consensual,’ but only after she was egged on by those five males to say yes, and felt she had no other way out. And then perhaps she was pressured to change her mind later when she was told by police that technically she gave consent, even if the consent was under pressure (which actually doesn’t count as consent).

Maybe none of that happened, and it was entirely consensual. Who knows. What i’m saying, though, is that people need to find out what happened before she can jump to conclusions about the men or the girl.

There WAS a reason why she said they raped her. And think about it: If there were five men, she must have had a damn good reason to say something. That’s five stories against her one story. If police questioned those five guys and all their stories were entirely consistent, down to the moment of consent, they’d question her validity. And obviously, she’d realize that before deciding to ‘cry rape’ as a lot of you guys are suggesting.

So honestly, take a step back and look at the story. You don’t know what actually happened, and all these stupid attacks on feminists and women in favor of ‘slut culture’ (talk about double standards, guys) just make a lot of you look like players in that dreaded ‘rape culture’ you’re all making fun of.

Ageb Says:
September 20th, 2009 at 4:39 am
Any man who feels threatened by feminism, and thinks all feminists are man haters, are just as pathetic as the women who falsely accuse innocent men of rape.

Feminism doesn’t threaten me. It out and out attacks me. It created a legal system that reduces me to nothing more than an economic tool. It slanders and libels me. It tries to brainwash me. It shames me for being nothing more than a male.

Pathetic is a strong word to toss around. As much as I hate feminist, I hardly consider them pathetic. They are too dangerous to just dismiss. I wonder if you would use that same word in a face to face conversation. I wonder if you would feel as superior and rightous without having a keyboard and monitor to hide behind. Pathetic indeed.

… Okay, Big_M, I think I follow that you are angry and concerned with the lack of what you consider to be logic in feminist discourse. But, how do you reconcile the following two statements plucked from your emotional rant with your apparent disdain for unfair double standards? To wit:

“Even if they did “train” her, it’s not their fault that this girl willing whored herself out. So, don’t blame the guys for this girl’s bad choice of being a slut.”

“Or is that another of those stupid male stereotype labels that man-hating feminists like to put on men who enjoy sex?”

… No, no, don’t trouble yourself with another explanation, sir (I worry about your blood pressure). I suspect one might take away from your wise words that enraged, stream-of-consciousness diatribes should still be read through before posting – otherwise we might glean, through your careless inclusion of contradictions (and in such close quarters too!), the underlying beliefs that colour your motives.

Thanks for the chuckles, indeed.

“Clearly,” he said, “I think the cell phone was taken to lure her away from the crowd to do her harm.”

Clearly + in my opinion ???

Lured???

This fellow needs a change in scenery.
Clearly, I think he can no longer swim strongly enough to rise above the bullshit.
He just isn’t up for the job. A real man would take responsibility for his error in judgment and seek remediation and honour.

Consider this

You find a man in women’s washroom just hanging around.
You find a woman in a men’s washroom just hanging around.
You find a woman in a women’s washroom just hanging around.
You find a man in a man’s washroom just hanging around.

Four men to one woman.
Four women to one man.

ideology divorced from technology breeds illusion.

My response to the Amanda Hess piece and ensuing discussion:

Lets separate the forest from the trees. The root problems here aren’t “rape culture” or false accusations.

The real problem is represented by a simple catch-phrase: “murder and rape.” The real issue is that rape ain’t exactly murder. Not even close. Sorry, girls, including to my otherwise dear co-worker who recently voiced that rape is worse than murder: just because it happens to you more than us guys doesn’t make it a worse crime than it really is.

To be sure, rape CAN be a serious crime. For instance, rape of a straight guy by a fellow-guy is an unnatural and horrible and despicable act. It involves the insertion of one body part into another body part where it is clearly both not intended to go and where such body part is not welcomed by the recipient.

The very horribleness of guy-on-guy rape is what keeps most of us guys from a life of crime, which usually leads to more money and – as all of us guys know by now – both as a result of the crimes and the glam that comes with being the “bad-boy,” leads to more girls.

Rape is also a serious crime when involves the spread of disease, and can certainly be a serious crime when it results in an unwelcome pregnancy. And to be sure, rape is often accompanied by other serious crimes, such as murder and mayhem.

But whether something is a truly serious crime shouldn’t merely depend upon who is doing it. Rape, of course, does. Few women in the United States would deny themselves the opportunity to have Derek Jeter insert his penis in their vagina, not even knowing anything about Derek Jeter’s penis, and yet if another guy, possibly with a nicer penis and better cocksmanship, does the same thing without the consent of the girl, or even with her consent but falsely claiming he is Derek Jeter, he faces decades in prison.

In contrast to rape, now matter how much I adore, revere, often fuck, have dated, sex workers, and no matter how much I even want to someday marry a sex worker (contrary to the theory of the misguided girls that think guys hate sex workers), I wouldn’t even want the likes of Carmen Luvana to cut off my arm, or going all Lorena Bobbitt on me. That’s the difference between rape and mayhem – with mayhem, the act is virtually always a bad thing.

And, as vividly demonstrated by the Hofstra case, where the only “crime” these guys apparently committed was not inviting accuser Ndonye to breakfast the next morning, a serious crime isn’t something that could just as easily be the fantasy of a lifetime fulfilled. Especially when that fantasy of a lifetime is actually being forcibly raped. It can even be rape if the woman enjoys getting raped, as some surely have.

This is not to say rape shouldn’t be illegal. After all, guys, think about how disgusting it would be if a fat chick tied you down against your will, planted her smelly, hairy, yeasty pussy on your face, and kept gagging you with her filthy labia and engorged penis-like clit. Such a thing CAN’T be legal.

Personally, I abhor rape – even borderline, getting-a-girl-in-bed-by-claiming-to-be-Derek Jeter rape. OK, maybe that’s not so bad, but most rape is. I don’t want to see it happen to anyone, girl or guy. Its makes girls hate guys, its wrong, its cheating, and it denigrates the accomplishments of guys like me who can occasionally get hot chicks in bed voluntarily. And with hot 19 year-olds only a few phone calls, $200, and a couple of hours away courtesy of sites like Craigslist, raping is being cheap. In fact, in effect, its stealing.

A lot of guys don’t really understand why women consider rape so horrible. It sometimes looks to some of us like running over to console a toddler who just fell or knocked its head against something but didn’t think to start crying until everyone starts coddling. And even some of us thinks rape is a lot worse than it really is by putting ourselves into the woman’s shoes, but when we do so, we really, in effect, put our asses into the woman’s pussy, which makes it seem worse than it is, since its worse to fuck our asses – they aren’t for penis insertion, but pussies are. In fact, the overwhelming majority of the time, women quite like it when penises go in them – it makes them juicy, and throb in a good way.

What really drives the cult of rape, if not its “culture” as described by Amanda Hess, is that rape is about that favorite obsession of women, to wit: power. Of course, it isn’t about power for the rapists, just to the victim, because it shatters the illusion of power women carry with them. The true power of penis-worthy women emanates from between their legs – the limits they place on access to their vaginas, and the shortage of attractive women, is what keeps us paying attention to them, paying for their lifestyles, paying them cash, and coddling them like toddlers. Most attractive women considers only the most elite males truly worthy of their time and affections, and consider themselves the power equivalent of professional athletes, billionaires, and rock stars. Upon being raped, they suddenly realize that any old dreg in a dark parking garage has power of them, too, and the illusion is shattered. Women hate rape because its a reality check.

This isn’t just DirkJohanson speaking. The world, or at least any reader of The Balls Monologues, now expects a piece like this by me. Rather, other guys say things like this to me all the time – they bring up the subject, out of thin air. We are beginning to accurately assess rape.

By complaining about everything and anything under the sun for more than four decades about guys, including through what I call sperm libel (false, generalized statements about guys such as saying that we hate sex workers), by discarding equal protection under the law for empowerment, by using every trivial slight to attack everything guys do and attempt to garner the fruits of our labor through spurious lawsuit and claims, women have lost the issue of rape – ironically, perhaps the singlemost pro-woman issue guys felt most strongly about long before the Steinems and Dworkins and Ciccones came along. We used to take womens’ words for it that rape was horrible, but ladies, you’re credibility is shot now, not just because of Ndonye the Duke case, and other false accusers, but because of so much of what you’ve said in the past four decades.

So, society needs to come up with a new catchphrase to characterize serious crime. I propose “murder and mayhem”- it even alliterates.

Mayhem. Now that’s a serious crime!

@61

you are as ridiculous as ageb. You have absolutely nothing. The female has 2 different stories and the males all have the same story. You are yet another feminist who expects us to respond to the nonsense she imagines. NOBODY SHOULD EVER GO TO JAIL OVER IMAGINARY CRIMES. She changed her story and now says it was consensual. She is responsible for her actions. The reason she said they raped her is almost certainly that she did something she shouldn’t have and didn’t want to accept that it was her own fault. How childish. You are right that nobody can ever know for sure. That is why it is important to be careful of the company you keep and where you keep it. duh.

@64

Hey Jon,

I think I have a pretty substantial case, actually. In fact, you prove to me the one misled: you said, “you are right that nobody can ever know for sure,” and then contradicted yourself by telling me I have “absolutely nothing.” Go figure.

I’m not disagreeing with you, by the way, when you say that “nobody should ever go to jail over imaginary crimes.” Did I ever even vaguely elude to that? I don’t think so. What I was trying to say, and think I articulated pretty clearly, is that this situation should be looked into and examined as to why this girl made these claims. Maybe she was trying to make one of them look bad because she had some sort of personal vendetta against them- – in which case, it IS her fault. Or maybe she honestly felt that she was raped because she was coerced into have sex by five boys and was too scared to say no. In which case, someone needs to talk to both her and those boys and let them know what is and isn’t okay when it comes to sexual encounters.

Who knows. Neither you nor I will ever know what happened exactly, but I do think it is important to figure out why she made the claim that she did. And that’s ALL i’m saying.

By the way. You should rethink that statement you made about me being ‘just another feminist who expects us to respond to the nonsense she imagines.” Homogenizing people isn’t very nice. It’s not too intelligent, either. If you actually think all feminists are evil lesbian man-haters, which I’m getting a feeling you do, you’ve really got some research to do. Patriarchy isn’t the enemy; ignorance is. And unfortunately, jon, your comment was pretty damn ignorant.

“you have absolutely nothing” in no way contradicts “nobody can ever know for sure” You have to PROVE guilt. What you imagine could’ve happened means nothing. I couldn’t care less how she feels. I also don’t care why she made the accusations, only whether or not they are true. My comment about imagination is directly related to what I said in comment 16 to the other broad with a big imagination.

I think the vast majority of feminists are just easily manipulated and dim.

google “shaming tactics”

@ 66

“the other broad with the big imagination” . . . ?

Nice comeback, Jon! I’m sure everyone is very impressed by your clever and mature name-calling on public forums!

I did google ‘shame tactics,’ by the way. And I laughed. Mostly at your analysis of my post and how my assertion that the case needs to be fully investigated somehow (according to you) qualifies me as having a ‘big imagination,’ and therefor requires me to google ‘shame tactics.’

I’m sorry, Jon, but I’m truly not the dim one here. I’m actually looking at the facts.

By the way, don’t you think it’s a little screwed up that you immediately assumed I’m a feminist (and a female) simply because I believe that the girl who made the rape claim should explain where she’s coming from? Thanks for that. Does that mean I get to call you a misogynist for calling me a broad?

She was a hooker? She solicited sex? Did they pay her? No?

you got me on the name calling, congratulations. You can go ahead and call me a misogynist. I couldn’t care less if you are a female or if you consider yourself a feminist. Neither of those things matter. You are using the shaming tactics, although I’ve lost the interest in explaining exactly how so I’m just referring you to google.

You have nothing. I threw out a little bit of noise and you abandoned the topic to focus on that. There is no reason to believe that the guys did anything illegal. The facts are that it is the guys and her against her. That’s all there is. What is further investigation going to uncover? If she is questioned further she may change her story again and that will further demonstrate her inconsistency. So what?

I’m pointing again to the “rape culture” article and encouraging people to actually read it instead of making assumptions based on the title. Because the general point of the article is this: it’s a Catch-22 for both parties.

If a woman doesn’t say “no,” she’s a slut, so what it really means is that the guy (guys, in this case) asking clearly just needs to put more effort in to seducing her so she can acquiesce without damaging her reputation (see quote below).

Conversely, the guy is expected to keep pushing because otherwise he’s a loser who can’t find a way to get into the woman’s pants and furthermore, because of the above mentioned woman-must-say-no-then-yes thing, how is HE supposed to know if this is a serious ‘no’ or a coy one?

So yes, we do live in a rape culture. The cultural expectations imposed on both men and women set them up for rape. Women are expected to say “no” when they mean “no” and “no” when they mean “yes” and men are expected to be able to tell the two apart. That’s not fair to anyone and it needs to change.

And we haven’t even addressed the subject of male rape which has huge issues and stigmas all its own.

Relevant quote: That’s legal and media speak for admitting she cheapened herself by taking on five men willingly on a men’s room floor and lied about it later out of what little capacity for shame she had.

Other bothersome thing about this: If a guy managed to have sex with five women at once, he wouldn’t stop bragging for the next month and a half. When a woman does the same with men, she’s “cheapened herself.”

My opinions on this aren’t fully formed, and I’m not the wisest person out, but here’s my two cents.

If we reverse the situation here, making it into five women with one man, no man would ever report these women to the police as gang rape. What are the reasons for this? A (heterosexual) male would not be viewed as a slut, or any other equivalent term, for being with multiple women at once. If anything, he would be congratulated. He wouldn’t be believed, because women just don’t rape men. Right? Besides, any of them could turn around and say that he put date-rape drugs in their drinks, and they have a pretty good chance of being believed, even considering the circumstances of the group sex.

So, from this, I must conclude that there definitely exists a “rape culture”, of male raping female, female is always believed, etc. However, how can we can conlude that the dogma that “a woman never lies” is beneficial to her at all?

Yes, in the individual situation, they avoid the humiliation of having others find out that they (god forbid) engage in, and enjoy, group sex. The potential for humiliation in the first place stems from (I believe) gender stereotype and just centuries of the taboo surrounding sex, but I won’t get into that. These days, I believe that if you can’t bear to have -anyone- know about it, perhaps you shouldn’t be doing it – and that applies to both sexes.

But for women as a whole, it’s a negative thing, because it gives far too many other women an unwarranted way of getting out of shame that is really their own damned fault. It gives the individual the power of gender stereotype to get out of their own sticky situations – whether they escape or not, it’s still feeding -a- stereotype, which is of course detrimental to any concept of gender egalitarianism. Like I said, don’t have group sex if you don’t want others to know. C’mon, you just slept with five men who are probably pretty stoked about it and are probably tweeting or facebooking about it. What part of this did you possibly think could remain secret? It’s exploitation of your own gender to use rape culture to avoid the shame of your own naivety.

Ugh, you have no idea how much the foolishness of this woman irritates me. But moving on.

Clearly, the fact that this woman had no qualms (at first) about accusing the men of rape, and yet I am against the entire concept of group sex, shows that her actions do not represent an entire female culture of victimisation.

Similarly, the fact that many men do indeed rape women, but all men posting here are (I trust) disgusted by the notion of taking advantage of anyone in that way, shows that the actions of one rapist does not represent an entire male culture of rape, and what have you. Nor does the good behaviour of the males here represent an entire male culture of charming, respectful men who wouldn’t dare take advantage of a woman.

In other words, we’re all individuals with our own minds. If we could all learn to a. Not engage in stupid sexual exploits and b. Stop using the prejudices and stereotypes of our gender to cover up or justify said sexual exploits, then perhaps a few of these situations could be avoided.

My last point is that while I understand that this is a heated debate, I’m not overly impressed with how rude some posters have been with their comments, on both “sides”. I’m about half the age of most posters here, and can’t help but think that if this is how the “wise” older generations choose to sort out their gender issues, then we’re all doomed.

It may be futile to ask for rude and senseless comments to not get in the way of actual constructive discussions, but one can dream, surely.

“Think about it: there was probably a reason why that girl said those men raped her. Maybe she honestly feels like they did, and that they pressured her into having sex.”

So its still the men’s fault by your logic, or should I say, wild speculation. Even if this were true, based on your female intuitive leaps of insight, honestly feeling like something doesn’t make it true or right or even rational. It sure as hell doesn’t justify it legally. I’m sure plenty of rapist honestly felt like their victim was asking for it.

Your argument to me sounds like this:

Think about it like a feminist: there was certainly a legitimate emotional reason this helpless girl accused evil men of raping her. She intuitively knows that they really did rape her despite her consent, because they forced her into agreeing to be raped to begin with. We will call it Pre-Rape, and thus for hear on out, by decree of feminism, all men are guilty of Pre-Rape, until proven innoscent, by the sole word of the victim/lover, after said rape/intercourse has transpired.

“It may be futile to ask for rude and senseless comments to not get in the way of actual constructive discussions, but one can dream, surely.”

I agree 100% you pansey-ass wimp. Are you scared of words?! Are you!! Are woo scared of the wittle words?! Its okay, I’ll pwotect woo! Just kidding, I do agree, but these issues are emotional for most people, including me, so it is noble, but yet a futile idea. Truth be known, its more fun with the insults and anger. Just is. Doesn’t make it right. Doesn’t make it mature. Just is. I feel like you get a dose of both sides anyways. There is always a couple academics who wade in and stay polite. The diversity of human opinion and human reaction is what makes it interesting.

Haha, goodness, that last paragraph confused me a little. But, I do understand that it’s a very personal subject for many people (believe me, it is for me as well). I suppose insults keep it interesting. Just not overly mature.

Then again, who ever saiding that getting older makes you mature? Bah, humbug.

Just so long as we don’t resort to complete mudslinging here.

@72
If you ever become an adult you’ll realize that crime conviction shouldn’t hinge on whether one is thought a slut or a loser. Women usually won’t clearly say or indicate what they want in any situation, why should we expect it to be any different in this one? Most chicks are “subtle” because it helps them be manipulative. This foolishness leads to constant misunderstandings between men and women but in no way means that there is a “rape culture.”

I’m not in the least bit troubled by your claim that men would be admired for having sex with five women while women would be scorned. Men have a much higher sex drive than women so if a man manages to pull this off it is most likely because he wants it and if a woman consents to it it is most likely because she is a pathetic spineless people pleaser. I don’t think either of them have anything to be proud of but It’s quite obvious why they aren’t thought of the same way.

@73
The reasons the male and female are not thought of the same way for the same behavior are for the reasons mentioned above. This is obvious. I do agree with you that it would be better if we could all learn to not engage in stupid sexual exploits. Anyone who does engage in this sort of thing should realize that they may be taken advantage of or do something stupid and regret their behavior. If you do something like this and then accuse some innocent person of a crime to make you feel better about your own stupid behavior you are the scum of the earth.

Joy Watson for Nassau DA
PO Box 741
Mineola, NY 11501
Contact: Dianne Baumert-Moyik 516-903-1107 or Joy Watson (516) 456-1083

For Immediate Release 9/25/09

Statement from Joy Watson, Candidate for Nassau County District Attorney on the Failure of Nassau DA Kathleen Rice to Charge the “False Rape” Accuser Today

(Mineola, NY) — September 25, 2009 — I am outraged that Nassau District Attorney Kathleen Rice has made a side deal with the individual who falsely accused five young men of rape–and that this individual will not be charged. The public, and the falsely accused men, have waited since Tuesday, September 15, 2009, for the Nassau DA to do something. She waits until Friday, September 25 to finally make a decision.

In my view, the current DA is out of line. Rape is an extremely serious allegation and a false claim is highly damaging to those accused–as we have seen in this highly controversial case. Even though she has prosecutorial discretion to let someone walk, in this case the facts are that the accuser lied in a sworn statement and only recanted after a video was produced about the incident. This is not a simple false allegation over a petty theft. Short of accusing someone of murder, there is no more serious charge than rape. The accuser should be charged and the DA should allow our criminal justice system to decide her fate. She is sidestepping necessary input from the probation department and the bench, whose role it is to recommend and decide the appropriate criminal sanctions.

Rice’s pattern of minimizing criminal activity like she did with the Walmart holiday stampede in Valley Stream and her “deferred prosecution agreements” with drug dealers on Terrace Avenue in Hempstead and as used in this case, sends the wrong message to those who commit crime in Nassau County.
———
Watson, a 20-year veteran former Nassau County prosecutor and now State Supreme Court law clerk, is running on the Republican and Conservative lines on November 3. She is the former bureau chief of the Nassau County Sex Offense and Domestic Violence Bureau. She has been endorsed by the Nassau Detectives Association, Freeport PBA, Hempstead PBA and Adjunct Faculty of Nassau. Visit http://www.joywatsonfornassauda.com
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[...] Hope My Generation Isn’t Yawning Jump to Comments Paul Elam’s “Yawning at Hofstra” on Men’s News Daily has so many things wrong with it that I cannot possibly address all of [...]

Rape is a serious allegation to put on someone. Not something that you can just throw around. This girl should be punished for crying rape when rape never happened.

Rape is a serious allegation to put on someone. Not something that you can just throw around. This girl should be punished for crying rape when rape never happened.

Rape is a serious allegation to put on someone. Not something that you can just throw around. This girl should be punished for crying rape when rape never happened.

Horrible slut-shaming article. The columnist should be fired for writing such bigoted, ignorant slop.