No Large Men’s Groups?

2009-09-22
By

A recent article on MND posted by Dr Pelle Billing asked the question Where Are All the Men’s Organizations?

Why is it that men have failed to come together to take on the feminists, the anti-male laws and all the poisonous misandry that infects their lives so negatively?

Well, no doubt, there are many reasons.

Here are some of them.

…….

1. Self-serving government.

Governments and millions (literally) of their workers benefit in numerous ways by promoting feminism and various women-centred groups (e.g. see Why Governments Love Feminism) but they are unlikely to benefit much by promoting men’s groups. As a result, it has been virtually impossible for men to resource from public funds the creation and development of coordinated groups that are truly concerned with their own well-being.

2. Female histrionics.

Female histrionics is a well-organised enterprise.

Many government departments, women’s groups, academics, social service organisations, feminist-indoctrinated student bodies, tabloid media businesses, and so on, are populated with people who have a vested interest in maintaining a war against men.

These people often collude together to generate public hysteria that is particularly hostile towards any suggestion that men might be being treated unfairly.

The result has been that both politicians and the mainstream media have, for many years, been terrified of looking into such unfairness and discussing it.

Indeed, the very act of publicly discussing areas wherein men are being treated unfairly has often resulted in vicious protests wherein it is proclaimed that “vulnerable women” will be made even more vulnerable if people are told that men are being unfairly treated.

It is also often alleged that such women would be made to feel ‘guilty’ by such public discussions and, further, that this guilt might inhibit them from obtaining support.

Examples of the effects of these protests include …

a. The mainstream media and the government refusing to discuss the fact that women receive far more funding for their health concerns than do men, lest women are, allegedly, made to feel guilty about their privileged position when it comes to health matters.

b. The refusal by much of the mainstream media and the government to properly address false allegations of ‘abuse’ made by women (and children) against men, and, in the case of the media, even in fictional programs and films. The denial of funding for assisting men victims of domestic violence is just one concrete result of this.

c. Men being too intimidated to speak out for fear of being ridiculed, insulted, accused of misogyny, demoted or dismissed from their jobs, described as promoters of abuse, as closet wife-beaters, as reactionary dinosaurs, and so on.

In other words, the self-serving public hysteria that has been continually fomented by various groups – and, indeed, by millions of women – has successfully blocked public discussions about the mistreatment and disadvantaging of men.

3. Feminist indoctrination.

As described by Myrna Blyth in her book Spin Sisters, media feminists for many years colluded together to highlight at every opportunity women’s victimisation; e.g. by continually shoving tales of their abuse into the frontmost positions of their publications.

This still goes on today, with, for example, the BBC forever doing its best to highlight stories – fictional and otherwise – wherein men are being abusive toward women or children while downplaying or ignoring those wherein women are the perpetrators.

In other words, mainstream media coverage has been designed to paint a picture of women as angels and men as demons.

Furthermore, there has been put into place a highly-successful feminist-inspired media manipulation of the language designed to airbrush out of the picture the gender of any victims when they are male, but to highlight the gender when any victims are female – with the opposite being true when it comes to perpetrators.

A good example of this tactic is the way in which the mainstream media persist in referring to, let us say, men victims of war, as “soldiers”, “troops”, “officers”, “mariners”, “recruits”, “Iraqis”, “Palestinians”, and so on. Whereas when the victims are women then they are almost always referred to as “women”.

Indeed, I am actually often quite taken aback when, for example, I come across BBC TV or radio programmes of forty years ago and beyond which describe men victims as ‘men’.

“100 ‘men’ died in the mining disaster.”

“100 ‘men’ were lost at sea.”

“100 ‘men’ were treated in hospital for burns.”

Such statements actually sound quite strange these days; because they are so rarely made.

What we would normally hear these days is, …

“100 ‘miners’ died in the mining disaster.”

“100 ‘crew’ were lost at sea.”

“100 ‘workers’ were treated in hospital for burns.”

In other words, the gender of men victims is purposely disappeared from view.

A similar situation occurs with children.

Boys who are victims are usually referred to as ‘children’, but when they are perpetrators they are mostly referred to as ‘boys’.

With girls, the reverse is true. They are ‘children’ when perpetrators, and ‘girls’ when victims.

Indeed, when females are victims, the term ‘girls’ if often used to describe females in their early twenties.

As a result of all these linguistic shenaningans designed to mask the fact that ‘men’ are ever victims, most men seem not to have even become aware that they are being severely disadvantaged when compared to women.

Neither are they yet aware of the fact that men, not women, make up the vast majority of victims when it comes to most circumstances wherein people are regarded as victims.

Interestingly, however, many men might actually know that most victims are male. But, certainly, they are mostly not aware of it.

And they are mostly not aware of it precisely because there has been an enormous amount of effort expended by certain groups to hide this fact from view – as per above -  specifically in order to prevent men from becoming consciously aware of it.

4. Successful demonisation.

The abuse industry – which is vast in size – consists of millions of people who want to maintain their jobs and their pensions. These people often demonise men in order to make a better living. As such, they support feminist ideology because, essentially, it portrays men as being continually abusive in some way.

The powerful tabloid media also make millions of dollars from generating abuse hysteria – which is mostly directed against men.

Top executives in many large companies have also been very keen to demonise men; because their businesses usually make their profits at the margins. As such, they can often increase their profits quite substantially by decreasing – even by a small amount – the likelihood that men and women will form close relationships. (For example, see Fathers Groups Miss the Big Picture.)

Women, of course, have also gained substantially (vis-a-vis men) in almost every area of life by demonising men.

And, as indicated above, governments benefit hugely from the demonisation of men.

In other words, there are billions of dollars to be made and numerous advantages to be gained by millions of people from demonising men – and so demonising men is a huge enterprise.

And one result of all this demonisation has been that even men are now imbued with hatred towards men; the mainstream acceptability of Bobbit jokes and jokes about prison rapes standing as a shining testament as to how effective has been this demonisation.

Men really are hated.

And now, even men mostly do not care about men.

5. Loss of self-identity.

As I say in my piece What A Piece of Sh#t is Man, …

[W]hat man wants to identify himself with the type of person who is continually being portrayed as the lowest and most unpleasant form of human being that exists? …

… my point being that men would nowadays prefer not to be seen as ‘men’.

As an example of this, try telling a male police officer that all male police officers are brainless idiots, and I can almost guarantee you that he will not look too pleased.

But tell him that all men are brainless idiots – which amounts to the same thing – and he will probably laugh.

You see. He sees himself as a police officer, not as a ‘man’.

(But if you try telling a woman police officer that all women are brainless idiots, then you will almost certainly find a different reaction; because women do see themselves as ‘women’.)

Men just do not see themselves as ‘men’. They see themselves primarily as blacks, as Jews, as Christians, as accountants, as bricklayers, as Manchester United supporters, as Americans, etc etc. But not as ‘men’.

And so, for example, they do not actually identify themselves as being the creatures that they so often see being mistreated, demonised and disadvantaged.

As such, they do not feel the need to do anything about this.

You can see a similar type of failure to develop proper self-awareness and identification in many highly-intelligent animals, such as dolphins.

For example, dolphins will continue to mill around the waters wherein their defenceless comrades are being harpooned and killed. These intelligent animals can see all the blood, the carnage and the death, and yet they do not swim away.

It is as if they remain unaware that they, themselves, are being threatened by such slaughter despite their high intelligence.

Men behave similarly.

6. Failure to recognise an enemy.

Unlike women, men tend to be competitive in nature when they interact with each other. And they seem mostly to cooperate closely only when they can identify some kind of common adversary that needs to be dealt with.

But because they cannot yet actually recognise the existence of many of their common adversaries (as per some of the points above) there seems, to them, to be no reason to cooperate in any endeavour designed to combat them.

In other words, men simply do not yet recognise that there exist various forces and organisations that are specifically aiming to hurt them in some way.

They mostly cannot yet see these adversaries. And when, indeed, they can see them, then, just like the dolphins, they do not fully recognise that they, themselves, are their actual targets.

A really good example of this was discussed in my piece Male Bloggers Failing Miserably; wherein I pointed out that most political activists who seek smaller government (such as those whom one might brand as libertarians or conservatives) do not actually address the fact that feminism has been one of the main causes of the rise in the size of government over the past few decades.

So. Are they blind?

Why have they failed to recognise this particular ‘enemy’ of theirs?

The answer, of course, is that they cannot see feminism as an enemy because it does not enter their equations. And the reason for this is that the huge forces mentioned above have been very careful to ensure that feminism is never linked to anything bad.

So, in much the same way that, for example, feminism is never linked to increased carbon emisssions by those groups that have much influence in this area (e.g. the mainstream, the politicians, the global warming scientists, the school teachers etc) so it is that feminism is not linked to the size of the government.

And this is why most of our libertarian and conservative bloggers do not see the connection.

Indeed, whenever there has been bad or worrying news to discuss publicly in the recent past, feminism has been deftly disappeared out of sight.

Similarly, when one hears Alex Jones or David Icke talking about all the lies and the fantastical conspiracies that, they allege, are being perpetrated by the Illuminati and various lofty others in order to keep us in our place (aliens on the moon, UFOs, 9/11, JFK, hidden viruses, drugged tap water, etc etc etc) it seems very strange that rarely is feminism mentioned – given that feminism clearly empowers hugely the very people that Mr Jones and Mr Icke seek forever to warn us about.

Once again; this particular enemy – feminism – just cannot be identified as such.

It is off their radar secreens.

7. Biology.

Men were biologically designed to protect women and to find vulnerable women attractive; e.g. see Women and Chimps.

As such, men are easily manipulated into helping women who appear to be vulnerable.

Men and women, on the other hand, do not find vulnerable men to be attractive. As such, they are not concerned to help men who appear to be vulnerable.

Indeed, men are not biologically prone to helping men; especially vis-a-vis women.

(The same is true for males throughout nearly all the animal kingdom.)

8. Culture and chivalry.

For a long time western culture has convinced people that being chivalrous is both good and manly, and so most men believe that it is their duty to protect women (or to look as if it is) and to assist them when they claim to need help. In addition, chivalry requires a preparedness for men to sacrifice their own well-being for the sake of women and children.

And this cultural attitude has prevented many men from being concerned about the fact that women’s needs and desires are continually being put ahead of their own.

Indeed, so deeply ingrained is this that jurors – both men and women – will often convict innocent men on the shakiest (and, sometimes, the most preposterous) of evidence rather than risk letting a rapist or a child abuser go free.

And there are now many western laws that treat innocent men appallingly when they are merely accused of abusing women, while letting off the hook almost entirely many women who have committed very serious crimes against men.

And this code of chivalry not only clearly prevents many men from complaining about this state of affairs, many men do actually believe that there is nothing particularly wrong with such mistreatment if women are being protected by it.

9. Psychology.

Western men are highly affected by what women think of them. And they often look to women to make decisions about what their attitudes and their values should be. For example, comedians know full well that if they make the women in their audiences laugh, then the men will laugh. But if the women do not find something funny, then the men will feel the same way.

Indeed, it is women who tend to decide what people may laugh about or cry about.

And given that western women have been infused with feminist propaganda for the past four decades, their attitudes towards men who, for example, seem to express anti-feminist or even light-hearted anti-women sentiments, tend to be highly negative; something which men would prefer to avoid.

All in all, therefore, men tend to refrain from expressing or supporting openly, any opinions that bring about the disapproval of women.

10. Feminist domination of the mainstream media.

Feminism has been over 120 years in the making. And for nearly all this time, the mainstream media have had a virtual monopoly on the flow of information to the public. These media have been very heavily influenced by government and by business, both of which benefit a great deal by pandering to women and by portraying men negatively.

The virtual stranglehold that media feminists gained over the media some four decades ago further entrenched the anti-male bias in the information that was being fed to the public.

And men who have tried to get support for the creation of men’s organisations have been purposely blocked from arguing their case in the mainstream.

11. Lethargy.

Most men have been too busy with their lives and with their various interests to have enough time left over to devote seriously to other matters. And most of the spare time that they have had to themselves has probably been spent unwinding and relaxing.

Men’s activism and understanding the issues, however, require quite a lot of work, and so it is not surprising that few men can summon the effort to get seriously engaged with these things in their spare time.

In contrast, however, millions of women have had the opportunity to engage in feminist activism – and to be affected by it – not only through their government-funded groups but also through the mainstream; e.g. via the highly-misandric afternoon chat shows that started flooding the TV screens in the late 70s.

…….

In summary, therefore, it is hardly surprising that men have not formed large groups concerned with their own well-being. The most powerful and influential of our organisations have been deceiving them on many fronts, and so they have not been aware of what has been going on.

They have been demonised so effectively by these organisations that even men no longer like ‘men’.

Indeed, so much so is this true that men mostly refuse to identify themselves as ‘men’; preferring to see themselves as something else.

And so out of touch are they with their own selves, that they cannot even appreciate that they, themselves, are being targeted whenever, and wherever, ‘men’ are being targeted.

The mainstream media have blocked most attempts by men to counter all the anti-male prejudice, and many of those men who have tried to speak up have been intimidated and/or punished in some way; something which has discouraged many others.

And, for various reasons, governments are very unwilling to support groups that are truly concerned with men’s issues.

The biologicai make-up of men and their psychology both conspire to inhibit their concern for the well-being of men vis-a-vis women, and their entire culture endorses this.

And, no doubt, there are many other important factors that have, and will continue to have, a mighty tendency to inhibit the growth of organisations concerned with the general well-being of men.

Nevertheless, I remain convinced that the MM will continue to grow. That it is unstoppable. And that, in the end, it will prevail.

With regard to politically-effective formal men’s organisations materialising, of course, I hope that this happens. But I do not envisage much development in this area over the next decade or two, for two main reasons.

1. The internet – the only realistic means currently of garnering support for the development of men’s organisations – is not very helpful when it comes to focusing efforts into supporting one particular group. The internet encourages the breakdown, not the build up, of large powerful cohesive group structures.

2. The truly enormous self-serving forces currently at play are far too powerful to be much affected by various budding men’s organisations – making the latter seem pointless to support, for the moment.

For example, if the mainstream media refuse to pay attention to men’s issues (which, thus far, has been the case) then, effectively, men’s organisations cannot achieve very much and, as such, men will not bother to support them.

Why should they, if they are ineffective?

All in all, therefore, my own view is that the only way forward is for men to grow, within cyberspace, a ‘male consciousness’ – which, in my view, is actually the best way to describe the “Men’s Movement”.

It is a consciousness.

And this consciousness is very definitely growing.

But it is going to have to grow to be vast in order to continue countering successfully those huge forces that insist on hurting men.

It really will have to be positively huge in order to exert the continued influence that is required.

It will need to have more influence than governments. More influence than the tabloid media. More influence than the abuse industry. More influence than the feminists. More influence than the desire for money by big businesses. More influence than ‘women’. And, probably, more influence than some significant aspects of men’s very own biology and inherent psychology.

As such, the whole task seems rather daunting.

And, once again, it is surely not surprising that, thus far, no large men’s organisations have emerged.

However, matters are not quite as bad as they might seem.

And perhaps we only need to remember two things in order to appreciate that the MM can, and will, succeed.

1. A tiny virus can kill an elephant.

2. 50% of the population are men.

And so while it is true that huge forces need to be overcome, and continually overcome, in order for the MM to prevail, and for men’s organisations to grow and to become successful, it seems to me that the groundwork for these developments is already being done – right here, right now – and that the internet is going to provide support for the growth of a very large male consciousness; one that is self-reflective, self-aware and, indeed, extremely powerful.

And there will surely soon come a point when there are enough committed and effective MRAs in action to wage very significant wars against those who hurt men.

And to win them.

Indeed, in my view, just a few thousand such activists would probably be sufficient to turn the tide completely.

Furthermore, I believe that those MRAs who are active on the internet, and who are good at what they do, should take heart, for in the coming years the MM will certainly grow in power and, hence, wealth, and those who are clearly known to be useful to its development are bound to be rewarded in one way or another.

Their websites and their articles might become much more popular. Their speeches and their TV appearances might be more in demand. Their graphics and video skills might become more profitable. Their legal and therapeutic services might be more requested. And so on.

There will be many ways in which such MRAs can benefit from all their hard work.

In conclusion, therefore, there have been unimaginably huge forces at work throughout the past century which have undermined, at every level, the chances of developing any groups or organisations concerned with the well-being of ‘men’.

Now, however, these forces are slowly being countered by MRAs. And while it might yet take many more years before strongly-influential formal men’s organisations finally materialise, the consciousness that is the MM will soon start exerting a very powerful force that is concerned with the well-being of men.

And – certainly for the moment – this persistent and ever-growing force – this consciousness – will arise mostly through general activism via the internet; rather than through the typical activities of more formal organisations.

Furthermore, while the internet remains available, this process cannot be stopped.

From an activist point of view, therefore, the current primary goal should be to increase both the depth and the spread of this consciousness throughout the minds of as many men as possible.

1,269 views

  • http://avoiceformen.com/ Paul Elam

    It became more apparent to me as I read this piece, as though I needed any help, of why Angry Harry is so revered in the MRM establishment. I openly proclaim that reverence myself.

    This is a brilliant piece, most instructive, not only in explaining the road blocks to activism that exist, but oh so much more importantly in offering something usually absent in the wider body of MRA writings.

    Hope.

    Not contrived hope or pipe dreams, but a sane and rational proclamation that this, the turning of the tide, is doable. That it may indeed be inevitable, and not so terribly long into the future.

    This was just the dose of medicine I needed, straight from the one true Godfather of the MRM.

  • Mr.K

    @ Angry Harry
    I have often admilred your ability do dissect and analyze the pathology of feminism. This article is like amedical or legal textbook. We like short stories, but as those who have attented to law or other courses know, one has to read reams to learn the dynamics.
    The analogy about dolpins is poignant.
    Many years ago I was a friend of our State Attorney General. But his wife was a feminist. So when my ox was gored, I pleaded with him to be fair to men. It was in vain.
    When I ponted our how men have to fight wars, he replied “Men start wars”. He settled feminist lawsuit agaiinst the state favorably, but when we sued on similar issue against men, he beat us and media ignored the issue.
    I hope you’re right in your optimism. But like General McArthur said “Old soldiers never die. They just fade away”
    Link to a soldiers ballad from Answers.com
    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Old_soldiers_never_die_they_just_fade_away

  • http://www.standyourground.com Poiuyt

    Why Don’t More Males Fight Back?

    Because we have amongst our gender class sado-masochistic suckers for punishment, traitors to our gender and our collective common interests, untrustworthy opportunists and dupes, chivalrous bigots and arrogant female-favouring chauvenists to boot.

    Then really … How can males fight back against structures that they themselves created, re-invented and perpetually refined to inhibit, thwart and usurp each other for an illusory and momentary dominance. That is, on the pretext of assisting females and children, they alone are permited, as a bribe, to enprostitute, bastardise or kill.

    Let us be honest and admit feminism to be, on its own, simply a harmless movement of parasites and inadequates, only made lethal by the connivance, treachery and conspiracy of duplicitous males. That is duplicitous males whom are ever in it for themselves alone.

    Look all around you and tell us where males are not infact dominant in numbers and in real power where it matters. Males are in the ascendant in just about everywhere and everyplace but they use their ascendancy and power against themselves. Like dogs.

    This cultural sickness has persisted for generations because it is a mendacity that perpetually renews itself by education, socialisation, incrimination and isolation.

    Politicaly activist males for the male-gender class must behave like intolerant, belligerant, shameless, uncompromising, relentless, fanatical, hysterical uber-bitches against every man or leader they identify as being the source of male degeneracy and diminishment.

    It isnt feminism and it never, ever was feminism. But the ignorant and sly ones amongst us could have fooled you and the unthinking man forever on this.

    It will ever be us and our attitude against ourselves and against our common intrests as a gender class … a distinct group having its own wants, needs, concerns and natural privileges in this world.

  • http://www.standyourground.com Poiuyt

    Why Don’t More Males Fight Back or form coherent groups for their gender ?

    Because we have amongst our gender class sado-masochistic suckers for punishment, traitors to our gender and our collective common interests, untrustworthy opportunists and dupes, chivalrous bigots and arrogant female-favouring chauvenists to boot.

    Then really … How can males fight back against structures that they themselves created, re-invented and perpetually refined to inhibit, thwart and usurp each other for an illusory and momentary dominance. That is, on the pretext of assisting females and children, they alone are permited, as a bribe, to enprostitute, bastardise or kill.

    Let us be honest and admit feminism to be, on its own, simply a harmless movement of parasites and inadequates, only made lethal by the connivance, treachery and conspiracy of duplicitous males. That is duplicitous males whom are ever in it for themselves alone.

    Look all around you and tell us where males are not infact dominant in numbers and in real power where it matters. Males are in the ascendant in just about everywhere and everyplace but they use their ascendancy and power against themselves. Like dogs.

    This cultural sickness has persisted for generations because it is a mendacity that perpetually renews itself by education, socialisation, incrimination and isolation.

    Politicaly activist males for the male-gender class must behave like intolerant, belligerant, shameless, uncompromising, relentless, fanatical, hysterical uber-bitches against every man or leader they identify as being the source of male degeneracy and diminishment.

    It isnt feminism and it never, ever was feminism. But the ignorant and sly ones amongst us could have fooled you and the unthinking man for ever on this.

    It will ever be us and our attitude against ourselves and against our common intrests as a gender class … a distinct group having its own wants, needs, concerns and natural privileges in this world.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/rogerfgay/ Roger F. Gay

    The war against men / fathers was also a war against the institution of family; and this just a battle in an overall war against liberty / civil rights. It was a well-worn pattern with too few people knowing the details of international history and too many who could not foresee the possibility of a total collapse of Constitutional rule. This is the domain of expertise of the far left; the subject of constant obsessive focus over the decades. But us normal folk couldn’t see it coming.

    IMO; men do not need any separate organizations to demonstrate a direct rivalry with organizations like NOW. NOW is a mechanism of the far left. It seems logical that only far left men would be interested in a similar male organization. Not that I believe everyone who is interested in growing men’s and fathers’ rights orgs. is on the far left of the political spectrum. It just follows logically from my view that such groups are mechanisms of the far left, that I do not see the use of a large men’s org being useful outside of that context.

    It is traditionally so. Back when we had Constitutional rule – with civil rights in place – an individual could prevail. You merely needed to be right rather than powerful. Now that Constitutional rule has collapsed, power is the key. We know that while recognizing (I agree with Angry Harry apparently on this point) that the Political Class currently in power has no interest in restoring rights. The context is no longer men and fathers’ rights in particular. They were the first group to fall when the revolution came; absolutely key to the overall victory of the forces of evil. But what needs to be recognized is that the result has been the suspension of civil rights for all; not just men.

    To focus exclusively on men’s issues / fathers’ rights issues is, IMO, out-of-date at the very least. At worst it is a clear acceptance of the collapse of Constitutional rule and general suspension of civil rights. It would put men in the position of negotiating for equal entitlements or some such thing, rather than facing the issue.

    My prescription lies more along the lines of “just do it.” There’s a whole world out there that should not be abandoned due to narrow overly-focused thinking about the problem. Different candidates need to stand for office. Different political parties need to be established and succeed. A counter-revolution needs to be launched that will result in the restoration of Constitutional rule for the benefit of all Americans (and in fact, the whole world).

    Just let me summarize this. Note that the problem includes more powerful people imposing their ill will. So long as that’s the situation, it’s a rigged game. As Angry Harry points out, the Political Class currently has no interest in restoration of civil rights. (My way of putting it, but I believe that corresponds exactly to what he is saying.) The problem can only be effectively addressed by meeting it on its own level. That’s not specifically men’s and fathers’ rights, it’s all civil rights and Constitutional rule. The problem isn’t at the level of N.O.W. – they never had any power and never will.

    Remaining separate with special focus on men’s and fathers’ issues merely divides – weakens – by the divide and conquer rule. “Just do it” to me in this response, means go out there and expend your energy on putting good people in power – replacing the forces of evil that now dominate. Don’t beg for entitlements. Take the country back. It rightfully belongs to you.

  • http://www.standyourground.com POIUYT

    Nothing radical is being said or done or being permited to be said or done.

    We are slaveishly folowing a “conservtive method” tried and tested as ineffective in these circumstances.

    And then even when such radical action or words somehow emanate, we reflexively self-censor and reflexively dissociate. For example see fathers for justice demise.

    So called spokes-persons of the mens movement must permit or create space for new things or methods to be said or done.

  • Paul

    I too found Harry’s words both penetrating and inspirational. As he usually is – and I have been reading him for years. I have no special insight myself but do have worries and misgivings.

    Is feminism a collection phenomena and interests groups as Harry elegantly describes and enumerates above, or is it a paradigm shift? By paradigm shift I mean an event that changes things for good. Examples of this from history might be The Renaissance or The Enlightenment. These can be characterised as periods in history after which things where very different from how they where before. So is feminism just fashion that will pass or is it a paradigm shift? I honestly don’t know. I want to avoid turning what I hope is the case in to a piece of dogma. As I say I don’t have insight I only have this anxiety. Is there any way of knowing?

  • http://www.libertarianrepublican.blogspot.com Eric Dondero

    There are a handful of us bloggers on the Right who do see a connection between the Mens’ Rights agenda, and the libertarian/conservative agenda. Not all of us, have a closed ear to the concerns of the Mens’ Rights movement.

    Eric Dondero, Publisher
    Libertarian Republican

  • Fidel

    Harry,

    Once again, a really great and useful article.

  • http://toysoldier.wordpress.com Toy Soldier

    I think the reason for the lack of large men’s groups is largely because of our current culture, issues related to masculinity and maleness as a result of the cultural shift and a general lethargy. I do not think it is possible or fair to lay the lack of men’s groups on feminists because ultimately the choice to create, fund and support organizations falls to those who would be best served by those groups. Men used to group together. They used to bond and form groups related to their issues. However, as the culture shifted to a more brazen individualism I think this comradery was lost. I do think feminism has played a role in this shift, especially in terms of vilifying male bonding and homosociality as sexist and something to be prevented.

    The biggest part probably is that most men do not care about these issues until it affects them and existing men’s groups fail to “sell” their cause to those unaffected men. Our cultural attitude is “out of sight, out of mind,” so it is difficult to get men to care about something that does not personally affect them. It is not until it does affect them — when their children are taken away, when they are falsely accused, when they seek help for sexual abuse or domestic violence, when they seek assistance as single fathers — that they look for groups and organizations to help them.

    There needs to be a bigger push in not only promoting the causes of the existing organizations, but also promoting the existing organizations themselves. It is an uphill battle because feminist groups are largely against anything related to men’s issues, even when it comes to addressing issues of male suicide and male rape victims. However, until there is a push for support for the existing organizations, nothing is going to happen. More men and women need to support the existing groups, and that means those groups need to better market and advertise themselves so that people are firstly aware they even exist and that people understand the intent and message of those groups in those groups’ own words. At the moment, feminists are allowed to define men’s groups because so few band together to present a cohesive argument, and to be honest too much of the commentary is hostile against feminists. The latter is not necessarily wrong, but in terms of selling oneself to the public it is better to tell people what you are for rather than what you are against.

  • http://www.icgi.org Dan Bollinger

    As I read Harry’s comments above I am struck that he has also outlined many of the reasons that male infant circumcision isn’t more prominent as a men’s issue.

    I have been working as an ‘intactivist’ for 12 years and it still puzzles me why more men’s organizations aren’t opposed to the forced genital cutting of baby boys’ penises.

  • Mr.K

    @Roger F. Gay, to quote you,
    “To focus exclusively on men’s issues / fathers’ rights issues is, IMO, out-of-date at the very least. At worst it is a clear “.
    I respectfully disagree. Bewildered husbands/fathers need some group or organization who will hear their grief and understand from past what is happening to them.
    To dilute the few activist who remain for fathers and husbands to wide scheme would, in my opinon, just dilute the remaining resources.

  • http://avoiceformen.com/ Paul Elam

    @ Eric Dondero

    Mr. Dondero,

    As a Libertarian I appreciate your good words, but they do raise a concern for me. I went to your fine and very active blog and searched through the last two months of archives and unless I missed something there is not one word written about men’s issues.

    I find this particularly disturbing since the men’s movement goes straight to the heart of constitutional liberties. Currently there are over a million men a year that are severed from their children, robbed of their private property, restricted from free movement and compelled into servitude by family courts when they have done absolutely nothing wrong to anyone.

    I am thankful for the fact that some Libertarians still offer us their ears, but would be much more impressed with their sincerity if they offered their voices.

    Next month is Domestic Abuse Violence Awareness Month. MND and other outlets will be running several time sensitive pieces on how VAWA, which I note returns no results from a search query on your site, oppressively impinges on the basic liberties of law abiding citizens.

    I invite you to include some or all of those pieces on your website for the benefit and education of your readers, and for the pursuit of liberty embodied in Libertarian ideals.

    Respectfully,

    Paul Elam
    Editor, MND

  • http://www.angryharry.com Harry

    Firstly, thank you for all the kind comments. Much appreciated!

    And I also agree with just about all the further comments that have been made regarding the problem – except in respect of those by Toy Soldier; who I think has yet to understand what is required for activism against an ideology like feminism to be effective. I recommend, therefore, that he read some of the pieces listed on my page, …

    http://www.angryharry.com/esEffectiveActivism.htm

    I quote one of his statements …

    “At the moment, feminists are allowed to define men’s groups because so few band together to present a cohesive argument, and to be honest too much of the commentary is hostile against feminists”

    … to which I would reply that hostility against feminists is EXACTLY what is required. We have spent far too long appeasing them and trying to be polite to them – to no avail.

    Indeed, the evidence mostly suggests that we need to be far more hostile towards them in order to dethrone them.

    With regard to …

    “I do not think it is possible or fair to lay the lack of men’s groups on feminists because ultimately the choice to create, fund and support organizations falls to those who would be best served by those groups.”

    … I am almost speechless.

    This statement represents a complete failure to see what has been happening – on many fronts – for the past four decades.

    Perhaps Toy Soldier would like to try setting up a humble domestic violence shelter for men, and see how the feminists and the women’s groups in his locality react. (Even death threats from them would not be unusual. Read, for example, Erin Pizzey.)

    This idea, that talking reasonably to feminists – and demonstrating the legitimacy of one’s case – is sufficient to bring about change is naive and wrong-headed.

    Hundreds of MRAs have tried this approach over the years.

    Tried it myself – on numerous occasions.

    No more!

    @Paul

    “Is feminism a collection of phenomena and interests groups as Harry elegantly describes and enumerates above, or is it a paradigm shift?”

    Probably both. But this does not really worry me in terms of the growth of the MM and its future power.

    Indeed, I would expect another paradigm shift to occur when the MM finally becomes powerful enough.

    @Roger Gay

    ” But what needs to be recognized is that the result has been the suspension of civil rights for all; not just men.”

    Indeed; which is why I am so disappointed that conservatives and libertarians seem mostly to have failed to link up with those who are at war with feminism.

    The converse is not true, however.

    MRAs – many who are active on this site – have clearly, and often, identified men’s rights issues as being just a part of the whole civil rights problem. (For example, Bernard Chapin is forever talking about this. And so is Denis.)

    @ Poiyut

    “we have amongst our gender class sado-masochistic suckers for punishment, traitors to our gender and our collective common interests, untrustworthy opportunists and dupes, chivalrous bigots and arrogant female-favouring chauvenists to boot.”

    Yes indeed. And we need to undermine such men.

    Fortunately, such charlatans will simply switch sides if the ‘pay’ is better.

    So we just have to make sure that the pay is, indeed, better for them if they switch to our side.

    And, one day, the pay will, in fact, be better on our side.

  • Jay R

    Harry,

    You ARE the master. Thank you for exposition and analysis that could not be more lucid and compelling. I have followed your work for years, and am indebted to you in many ways. (I have printed your essay for my ever-expanding MRA file — which I keep as my own personal research library.)

    You do know that this piece is the outline for a book that would (in your hands) basically write itself, don’t you? The essay on chimps is a chapter in and of itself. Brilliant! How about, “The Masculine Mystique”? (If someone hasn’t already used it.) I am perfectly serious about this; your dynamic, laser-focused words, like those of Betty Friedan, could serve as a catalyst for the wide-spread awakening of the “male consciousness” of which you so aptly speak. There have been some gaps in the Lace Curtain; I sense a growing hunger out there — an increasing yearning for men to be able to articulate their dissatisfaction with the status quo, and with the role in which feminists, and now all of society, has cast them . They just need the language and the easy-to-digest concepts which you are helping to develop.

    You make it so clear that Alpha males, entrenched at the top of government, business, and our other “patriarchal” structures, will never lose their place, and can never truly be threatened by feminism, which functions for them merely as an useful idiot — the crazed monkey placed at the controls of the steam engine. Society’s Alphas and the females who cannot resist them, and who depend on them for protection and support, both “feed” on the lives of the Beta males — those disposable occupants of society’s “glass cellar.”

    Male consciousness will expand as the great mass of Betas comes to understand that there will always be only a very few Alphas, and that the Alphas and women have an incentive, via the perverse combination of economics, chivalry, and feminism, to make as many Beta males as possible — males who have been, in effect, socially neutered and nose-ringed so as to make them more docile and compliant as they do the hard, deadly work, pay taxes, and then (fortunately?) die early.

    How to break this dynamic? Well, the next time two women encourage two men, “Why don’t you two fight? The winner will get BOTH of us, while the loser will be castrated and sent to work for our and the winner’s benefit”, the men could for once say, “No.” Faced with this response, the women would have an incentive to develop a next-best alternative, so each man could end up with a single woman. Under Plan Beta, each would-be Beta male, by ending up with a woman, and by capturing the benefits of his labor for his own family, could feel like an Alpha — at least within his own personal world.

    But enough with fantasies …

    In the meantime, thank God for the internet, which is the perfect medium within which the MRM can “go viral.” It is here that we are identifying the issues and, perhaps most importantly, creating the forceful, compelling language that can facilitate a different way for people to think. Providing easy access to “facts repositories” and “talking points” is KEY to the effective spread of male consciousness.

    The quality of the posts on this and other threads is both humbling and inspiring. So many incisive observations. With all due respect and admiration, I will agree with Roger F. Gay that, as exemplified by the (anti) “Family Courts”, there is a broader issue of the erosion of individual, Constitutionally-protected liberties. However, I do not agree that a focus on men’s, and particularly fathers’ and family rights, is a distraction from the bigger picture. The destruction of the family, and the intentional displacement of men from the role of family patriarch, has been key to the advancement of feminism, to governmental intrusion into individuals’ personal lives, and to corporate profit. I think that the defense of the family, with a particular emphasis on the importance of stable, two-parent families to children’s development, is the logical starting (but not ending) point of the effort to restore Constitutional Rule. A focus on Family and Parenting Rights will hugely benefit men, but will also garner support from many women. It is not an “anti-feminist” position (explicitly), and, for once, we MEN can assertively argue that we only want what’s best for the children, and thus what’s best for society as a whole! With victories at the family level, extrapolation to considering men’s interests in general should be made easier.

    Ironic that it is now women who should fear a true Equal Rights Amendment — to occupy the same place as men, women will have to fall far, indeed. To bear the same responsibilities as men, women will have to take up a heavy burden. True equality with men? That is the LAST thing that women have ever wanted. (“I’d like a double-order of rights, please. Hold the responsibilities. No, better yet, give all of my responsibilities to the guy behind me.”)

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/mike-lasalle Mike LaSalle

    MRAs – many who are active on this site – have clearly, and often, identified men’s rights issues as being just a part of the whole civil rights problem.

    I concur. The MRM is part of the civil rights movement. Men — ordinary men — supported the federal enforcement of civil rights by their actions and sympathies. It was the last act in a two hundred year history of American Pragmatic Liberalism. But as Paul Elam has pointed out, after ordinary fair-minded men opened the collective door to the New Egalitarianism, feminism repaid the courtesy by slamming it back in men’s faces. Not only that, but they bonded successive generations of ordinary men to the same historical account.

    The very men who gave their lives in support of their wives and girlfriend’s and mother’s and sister’s quest for personal self-actualization beyond motherhood are now expected to live as second class citizens, behind a long pecking order of preferred groups like “women”, or “gay” or “Minority-X”.

    Every unspoken red-blooded hero of the civil rights era must today take the humiliation of sitting in the back of the bus as his just desserts for the bad luck of not being a woman — or a registered member of any other federally protected social class.

    In a world of protected classes, men must also file for protection and be recognized for it — or they are the new Invisible Men.

    No class, no service.

  • julie

    This was a great read. Alot of good understanding about men and the reasons men haven’t got their organisation off the ground.

    I still think blaming feminism is going to keep men divided and the men who are actual anti feminists out of any decision making when it comes to society. But if it is the internet, then anything goes. :D

    And I absolutely love the idea of conscious awareness for men’s issues and …. what it is to be a man is definitely needed to be understood to move forward. That IMHO is something that is accepted by all cultures and nations.

    Radical feminism is man hate in it’s purest form and radical feminists have no problem agreeing. They just add their typical ‘poor women’ reasoning to it. Their enemies, men’s friends, are abundant in society.

    Feminism (without the radical) has a whole list of meanings outside radical feminism. Feminism is wanting your ex wife to be self sufficient. Feminism is single mothers and every separated mother becomes a single mother even if for a short time between marriages.

    Feminism is ‘women’s consciousness’ which is silly to fight if men want to be conscious of themselves.

    Feminism is not left or right politics. Radical feminism is extreme left wing.

    And feminism is loved by all those oldies who are in the prostate cancer lobby groups. I wouldn’t like to see them turn against the younger men in disgust.

  • Jay R

    Julie,

    I appreciate your input. But I must note that, outside of Radical Feminism (which you pegged exactly), your attempt to define “feminism” renders the term virtually meaningless. For example, should I also assume that every single father is “masculinism”? Or are they part of “feminism” too?

    All Feminism is radical and hateful– by its very nature. Non-radical “feminism” is always something else — like normal human empathy and compassion for others, male and female. There is nothing “feminist” about hoping that a single mother succeeds, nor about hoping that a person, male or female, gets a fair shake. The attempt to make “other” feminisms all about “sugar and spice and everything nice” is transparent and disingenuous, and smacks of female superiority, even if not hatred of males.

    Please give up that term. To the extent it is not meaningless, it is now a fighting word laden with hate. For non-radicals, identifying as a feminist only indicates a disturbing streak of female narcissism, and an implicit disregard of the interests of men as fellow human beings.

    Love ya’!

  • Peter C.

    The factors that make up the mens movement – which are, by definition, largely (but not entirely) the forces that oppose feminism – has, in the long term scheme of things, an invincible ally – one that feminism, in the long run, can never have – it is simply ‘father time’. Radical feminism is based upon a dishonest fantasy about the human race. History has irrefutably demonstrated, repeatedly, that when human politics fundamentally strays off the ‘beaten track’ as far as truth and reason are concerned, a road (be it one that is a route of violence or slow decay) which has no positive destination has been joined and a situation of impasse, or a ‘dead end’, is inevitably reached which brings with it an enormous wake-up call. There have been many historical parallels.

  • Denis

    Harry-

    You

    Da

    Man!

    Thank you for writing this excellent piece.

  • http://toysoldier.wordpress.com Toy Soldier

    Perhaps Toy Soldier would like to try setting up a humble domestic violence shelter for men, and see how the feminists and the women’s groups in his locality react.

    In speaking to feminists about my experiences I have been shouted at, insulted, accused of being a rapist and pedophile, accused of raping the people who harmed me and trying to pass myself off as a victim (these were in reference to unwanted sexual contact that started when I was 2-years-old), called a liar, laughed at, told I deserved it, told it could not have hurt because I am male, called homophobic slurs, asked if I had any pictures and being verbally and physically threatened. Online, the reaction from feminists has been much more hostile. In other words, I am quite aware of the feminist reaction to male victimization, which is why I do not bother to speak about that subject with them beyond correcting their misinformation.

    This idea, that talking reasonably to feminists – and demonstrating the legitimacy of one’s case – is sufficient to bring about change is naive and wrong-headed.

    Talking reasonably to feminists has nothing to do with them. It has to do with the non-feminists who may hear or read those conversations. If I speak reasonably and feminists launch into me, it sends a very clear message of what feminists are actually about. The people I actually want and need to convince will be more apt to listen to me if I am civil and polite than if I behave in the petulant way many feminists do.

    … to which I would reply that hostility against feminists is EXACTLY what is required. We have spent far too long appeasing them and trying to be polite to them – to no avail.

    Indeed, the evidence mostly suggests that we need to be far more hostile towards them in order to dethrone them.

    I thought the point of men’s organizations was to help boys and men. Why waste your time trying to “dethrone” feminists? Feminists do not care what you think now and trying to “dethrone” them will not change their opinion. Why not focus on boys and men’s needs and stop giving feminists the credence they do not deserve. That does not mean ignore what they say or leave their lies or misinformation unquestioned. It means that men’s groups should worry about boys and men first and address their opponents when and if the time comes.

    It sounds like you are less interested in making sure that abused men who want access to a DV shelter can get into one than you are in putting feminists down. When I bring up issues regarding services for male rape victims, I do not care at all what feminists think, whether they agree with me or not. My concern is not about them. My concern is for the boys and men who want help and need help, but do not get it because no one is reaching out to help them, something feminists play a major role in. So to the extent that feminists are part of that problem, I address that. Outside of that, I no more give them any concern or attention than I do child lover organizations. It is not about feminists, but about the needs of boys and men. However, your comments seem to suggest it should be the other way around. Again, I think that is wasted effort.

  • Dan Bollinger

    Peter C wrote: “The factors that make up the mens movement – which are, by definition, largely (but not entirely) the forces that oppose feminism.”

    I disagree. I would say that the mens movement is only somewhat or partially in response to the womens movement. Keep in mind that it was the publication of Mitscherlich’s “Society without the Father” that kicked off the mens movement, a year before the “Feminine Mystique” was published.

  • Harry

    @Toy Soldier

    “I thought the point of men’s organizations was to help boys and men. Why waste your time trying to “dethrone” feminists?”

    For the same reason that we had to dethrone the Nazis to help the Jews.

    In practice, you cannot do one without the other.

    **That’s** the way it is.

  • amfortas

    Why do Feminists seen always to win while the MRM has yet to organise itself?

    Maybe this will go some way to explain.

    “Arguments”
    By Richard Driscoll, Ph.D.
    Wednesday, 23 September 2009
    http://www.mensenews.org/index.php?option=com_jb2&view=post&PostID=1308&Itemid=2

    Insistence

    While we might expect men to be more forceful than women in marital arguments, the research shows just the opposite, surprising our expectations.

    Women tend to be more insistent, according to various researchers including John Gottman [1] at the University of Washington. Women argue more forcefully in almost twice as many marriages as men.

    In the most lopsided arguments where only one argues and the other remains silent, by a ratio of 6 to 1, it is the woman who continues to argue and the man who remains silent.

    So in these most severe arguments, we see an almost complete separation between men and women.

    Overwhelmed and confused

    Men are typically more stressed and confused in arguments with women and remain bitter for longer afterward, while women are more comfortable amid verbal jousts, recover from them more quickly, and are ready for another round.

    Generally, it is fair to say that men are more intimidated in confrontations with women than the other way around.

    Men are not blindfolded and gagged in arguments with women — it just seems that way.

    Origins

    Insistence has been a viable tactic for women, to test the strength of a commitment, while a reluctance to offend has been a more viable for men, who must rely on women to transport their genes into the next generation.
    Suggestions

    Marriages are better when men and women participate about equally. Amid our typical arguments, we offer a few obvious suggestions for men and for women:

    To better resolve conflict, you must learn to be more comfortable with it. Recognize that it is normal for women to be more easily upset and irritated than men, but that women also get over it faster. Do not interpret it as a great catastrophe when your mate is bothered about something. Stay involved, and try to talk it out.

    You might realize that men are more vulnerable in conflict than they appear and slower to recover from it. Be careful to accurately gauge how much stress your accusations inflict, and make allowances.

    Implications

    If men were ordinarily more forceful in marital squabbles, then an increase in female power would promote equality. But since women are ordinarily more forceful, as observations indicate, the same solution pushes us farther apart. Men withdraw in the face of female accusation, leaving marriages emotionally barren and inhospitable. The challenge is to strike a proper balance, so that men and women can participate together and gain the best from each other.

  • julie

    @Jay R , Hi

    ****”I must note that, outside of Radical Feminism (which you pegged exactly), your attempt to define “feminism” renders the term virtually meaningless.***

    In today’s world feminism is virtually meaningless.

    ****”For example, should I also assume that every single father is “masculinism”? Or are they part of “feminism” too?”***

    Every single father is a masculinst. The reason he is a masculinist is because it is up to men to define him not women. It is up to men to support men in men’s groups not women.

    But in saying that, there is middle ground where men and women both join together outside or these groups when they have common ground. It could be the police force, it could be work groups, it could be addiction centres or support groups for children. Even a dating site.

    ****”All Feminism is radical and hateful– by its very nature. Non-radical “feminism” is always something else — like normal human empathy and compassion for others, male and female.”***

    I agree. Feminism is a stem from humanism as in equal rights for all people around the world. Feminism was supposed to be women’s rights but ended up taking over everything else. Something went terribly wrong. It become radical. Thus radical feminism. BTW, there are alot of radical feminists.

    ****”There is nothing “feminist” about hoping that a single mother succeeds, nor about hoping that a person, male or female, gets a fair shake. “***

    I agree on this too. But if you were to say … start a men’s group and you wanted to link in with other groups, you can’t be anti feminism. You can be anti radical feminism though. Go figure. :D

    ***”The attempt to make “other” feminisms all about “sugar and spice and everything nice” is transparent and disingenuous, and smacks of female superiority, even if not hatred of males.”***

    You don’t have to make feminism anything. If you are a men’s group and you are discussing matters with a feminist group, there is no expectation that you can’t speak up on issues nor disagree with issues. You get to debate just like you do on this site. I know this because I see it.

    It was really hard for men years ago but there has been a shift in the last decade as the older women are being replaced by younger women.

    ***”Please give up that term. To the extent it is not meaningless, it is now a fighting word laden with hate. For non-radicals, identifying as a feminist only indicates a disturbing streak of female narcissism, and an implicit disregard of the interests of men as fellow human beings.”***

    I consider myself to be a non feminist. That gives me the chance to put forward thoughts completely away from women’s studies and yet at the same time I am not an anti, thus not an enemy nor a threat.

    Love ya too!

  • Shagda

    AH as always your logic is without flaw.

  • Mr.K

    @ julie.Posts 17&25
    How should men who are not yet in”prostate cancer group” respond to her feminist writings? Link:NNDB
    http://www.nndb.com/people/479/000133080/

  • julie

    @ Mr.K,

    I know of this woman.

    ***”How should men who are not yet in”prostate cancer group” respond to her feminist writings?”****

    I don’t think I am the right person to ask. (I am sure you know that). I know that I have some crazy thoughts on what she deserves and she sure is radical.

    Lookie here, (smile) …. I am just adding my opinion from what it has been like for me. People have a certain impression (in their mind) of what an anti feminist is. I don’t think the MRM majority is anti feminist how people think an anti feminist is.

  • Paul

    AMFORTS makes a very interesting points. What he had to say conformed with something I have thought for a very long time. This is that women are ‘stronger’ than men. It is hard to quantify quite what is meant by ‘stronger’ so I won’t try . It certainly includes the ability to mentally dominate and this gives women in a sense a natural superiority. I came to this conclusion through my own experience, but for what its worth, I believe it is a general male characteristic. Again for what its worth I believe a woman’s ‘strength’ increases as a woman ages and a man’s diminishes.

    The irony is that men think themselves stronger and are mystified and perplexed that women out manoeuvre them. So since we can not believe it is happening, we cannot resist it.

    I read something recently the gist of it was that there was no longer anything called feminism any more as it had become so pervasive as to be the very essence of the way we think and live.

    Imperfectly I put some of my thoughts on this issue in a short film. It is not especially interesting but if you like you can look at it on the link below.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/mooseman33

  • Philip

    Another great piece from Harry, Keep it up mate

    @ Julie, You say… It is up to men to support men in men’s groups not women.
    Where do you think the womens movement would be today if it was not for the support of men? men who encouraged there bored stay at home wife to get a feminist hobby and the male politicians giving the vote, rich widows using there husbands wealth to support womens groups. men have helped and supported the womens groups from the beginning.
    Your statement is a totaly sexist view… be a man and stop moaning , women need helping but men can help them selfs, take it like a man.
    I think its about time women rode that horse and wore the shiny armor and came to the aid of men!, now that would be equality!!

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/rogerfgay/ Roger F. Gay

    Jay:

    You agree with me that the problems of mens’ / fathers’ rights are part of the greater problem of loss of civil rights generally, but disagree that focus on mens’ / fathers’ rights is a distraction.

    OK – Promoting understanding that it’s part of the general civil rights problem is my main interest. I believe that’s critical – absolutely and totally critical. It’s not as though I oppose people being focused on mens’ / fathers’ rights issues. (Should I “LOL” that thought? Not as if I haven’t put some time in on it.)

    Working effectively toward solving a problem starts with getting the definition right. The problem cannot be defined accurately outside the context of the greater problem. Men’s / fathers’ advocates need to have a solid understanding of what “civil rights” are, how they were eliminated, and how that process continued and continues to expand to the complete elimination of all civil rights altogether.

  • DcFather

    When you make it clear to somebody what feminism has done, is doing, and will do to women and children, then they will listen, save a few die-hard leftists who want that sort of thing.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/rogerfgay/ Roger F. Gay

    Looking at it another way – if you say you’re advocating men’s “rights” or fathers’ “rights” – what do you mean by “rights”? Everyone should understand that you at least have to know what your label means.

    All the older guys can remember the early responses from the feminazis, like “What do you want the right to do, beat your wife and abandon your children?”

    I remember dedicating an entire article in a four-round roundtable discussion “Fathers’ Rights and the Marriage Movement” to explaining what “rights” are being clear about their loss. Stephen Baskerville participated in the same event, focusing on underlying principles of civil rights and marriage.

    I’ve hit that issue again and again in articles. But you know, since it wasn’t presented on CNN of Fox, you can never expect a complete audience anywhere to know what you mean. It can be explained 1000 times, and it’s still not enough. The only thing you’ve got going for you today – is that the suspension of civil rights has gone far enough – is now general enough – that it’s effecting a larger population (as if fathers and all their family and friends wasn’t big enough). Now more people actually want to know how it works – how in specific terms the Political Class arbitrarily suspends civil rights.

    I’ll just through an idea out here. I have described the War Against Fathers as the spearhead movement in a much larger attack. Can a FR movement be a spearhead movement in the return to Constitutional rule? Wouldn’t you expect to have a lot more allies if you make that connection clear?

  • Jeff Erbs

    The Feminist Movement is more about taking away everyone’s rights and using society’s “Little Princesses” to do it. Women as a group are actually a very small entity if you use the actual definition of women. What we have in our society today is the HUMAN FEMALE. Human Females are immature, not feminine, and certainly are not motherly. As we now have several generations of females who have been raised by their Human Female mothers only the problem is most certainly multiplied and magnified, by both population numbers and societal problems. If the government can take away one gender’s rights, how big of a next step is it to take away all rights for everyone?? Thank-You “Feminists” for being such an unwitting tool for One World Government and turning us all into slaves of the Banana Republic.

  • http://toysoldier.wordpress.com Toy Soldier

    For the same reason that we had to dethrone the Nazis to help the Jews.

    In practice, you cannot do one without the other.

    **That’s** the way it is.

    The use of Nazis as an analogy is the sign of weak argument. Feminists are part of a political movement that simply possesses a great deal of power. The way you actually address such a group is by consistently and repeatedly demonstrating the need for men’s organizations as you attack the biased structures the group has step up. It is a two-pronged assault that first proves there is a problem and then shows how the other group perpetuates that problem and why that group needs to no longer be listened to or wholly removed. That is exactly how feminists got into power, and that is exactly the method someone like Glenn Sacks uses when they target an issue, so we know it works. You can address the bigotry found in feminism as you seek to create services for boys and men who desperately need help. However, it sounds like you are only interested in attacking feminists. That does a very real disservice to boys and men who could use the support, and in the end you will fail because all you have done is said what you are against. You have not even addressed the problem, let alone come up with a solution to fix it. What you are doing is the equivalent of trying to ban guns while ignoring the people who have already been shot.

    For record, if “that’s the way it is” then things cannot change because that is just the way it is. I do not accept those kind of “there’s nothing we can do” arguments. There is plenty that can be done if men are willing to step up and do it.

  • Amfortas

    @Phillip #30 ref Julie.

    In fairness, I know Julie. She is a neighbour across the Tasman. I also know that she has been a strong supporter of the MRM and whenever she has expressed her views she is told to mind her own business. It is difficult for women to seem friendly to some men in the MRM who automatically reject the help of women. There are many who simply blame women without discrimination. I think Juie is feeling that heat and rejection but is nonetheless encouraging men to unite.

    I am of the opinion that there are many fine women and even some mini-fems and ‘Women-in-General’ who can take a part in changing the awful situation we are in. We can accomodate them. The view that it has been men that have helped women and the Women’s Movement achieve far more than the equality they demanded – mendaciously – forty years ago is correct and it is high time that women joined men in achieving real equality for all.

  • Henry

    @Toy Soldiers

    You can run around playing with my words all you like.

    The fact of the matter is that feminist ideology and feminist activism are, amongst many other things, significant impediments both to the growth of the MM and to the creation of men’s organisations – as per my piece above.

    THAT IS A FACT.

    As such, feminism needs to be ‘dethroned’.

    Furthermore, this pathetic attempt of yours to distort the meaning of my words, …

    “For record, if “that’s the way it is” then things cannot change because that is just the way it is. For record, if “that’s the way it is” then things cannot change because that is just the way it is. I do not accept those kind of “there’s nothing we can do” arguments. ”

    … suggests that you are simply trying to score points. And failing miserably to do so.

    My comment “That’s just the way it is,” clearly, and specifically, refers to the fact the feminism needs to be dethroned.

    It does not refer to the world in general; which is what you are trying to imply.

    Let me spell it out for you, again.

    “That’s the way it is” refers to the FACT that feminism and feminists need to be dethroned.

    Got it, now?

  • julie

    @ Amfortas #36

    Thank you (very much)

  • Michael UK

    Re Henry :dethroning! : toy soldier.

    I think toy soldier was putting emphasis on the need to provide support for males who have been abused.

    The part you missed?

    I suggest you read again henry and maybe apologise to him?

  • Harry

    Henry?

    My father’s name.

    Usually called by everyone ‘Harry”; which, BTW, is where Angry Harry comes from.

    Goodness knows why I put Henry.

    Too wound up, I imagine.

  • http://huntingforarchetypes.blogspot.com/ Factory

    I personally believe a MRA-like “male consciousness” is about to explode on society. By that, I mean within the next 2 years…

    And by male consciousness, I mean an acute awareness, and acknowledgement of- and efforts to correct- anti male bias and institutionalized sexism.

    I believe things are coming to a head. Listen to music (pick any top 40 station), and here’s the litany:

    (Male vocalist): Player sweet talk, rebellion against society, “fuck you bitch” type songs. (Think Sean Kingston, Green Day, and All American Rejects, for example).

    (Female Vocalist): Women are superior, I can’t help that I moved on, he deserved it, I’m so sexy and vapid all I want to do is drink and dance. (think Katie Perry, Biance, Carrie Underwood, and ANYTHING by Lady Ga Ga)

    Quite the contrast.

    Male voices are dissatisfied and angry, female voices are petulant and narcissistic….male voices are talking to women, female voices are talking about themselves…

    Or so it seems. Or does it?

    More and more articles, and segments, and ads, are showing a male-aware shift. People are beginning to openly ask, is this fair? On the mainstream media no less…

    Politicians are openly fighting for men’s rights (here in Canada at least) fer chrissakes!

    What is lacking is a translation of the ideals and goals of the MRM into the real world. We need to begin strapping these concepts together in the public consciousness, as should be obvious after the last couple decades worth of feminists reducing each argument to one issue, then dismissing it….

    We need, as a movement, to find a point to coalesce…much like cotton candy around the cardboard… There will always be a great mass of men who remain peripheral, but watchful….waiting for the opportunity to raise their voice. Stick the cardboard in, and the most ready to leave the swirling mass of “regular folk” will take the leap.

    Which makes the MRM more “mainstream”…which attracts more “leapers”, etc, etc…

    An effective male organization is ESSENTIAL to the protection of men’s rights and freedoms. Feminists knew this long ago, when they systematically labelled sexist every “men’s club” in existence, then had them either forced to accept women, or shut down. These same Feminists went on to found “Women in Business” type organizations… ever wonder why???

    Sure, men are “allowed” to “participate”…but how free can they be with their ideas??? Realistically…

    This is why I do not particularly view female voices in the MRM as universally positive. On balance, I truly believe that female self interest will override any sense of injustice felt. The single Mom who believes men should have better health care and that employment discrimination is wrong, may balk considerably at the concept of male parental / reproductive rights, or the dissolution of support structures propping up single motherhood itself. And while this is also true of men, at least then it is men deciding amongst themselves.

    Then, once we have a position equal in “power” to women (ie, no one has more rights than anyone else)…then and ONLY then is any “negotiation between the sexes” valid. Until such time men are collectively under duress…

    How do we go about doing this? How do we circumvent the obstacles so eloquently explained in Angry Harry’s piece? Well, I obviously am pursuing one idea (magazine), but I think there’s more…and I don’t think it’ll be US that do it..

    I think it’ll be younger men. Who are very angry, and acutely aware of the injustice…if not it’s source, or that they have the power to effect change.

    Obviously we’re waging a PR battle, and have been for years…but has anyone actually looked at “branding” the MRM? Does no one find the continuous mischaracterizations (and the repetition in combatting them) tedious?

    I think it’s high time we figured some of this stuff out….and we are truly morons if we ignore the incredibly successful tactics of feminism out of some sense of superior moral character. We need a steering committee, we need a “general election”…hell, why not create something and write a press release, and see who cares? If nothing else, it’s a good barometer…

    Point is, this is not rocket surgery…there aren’t THAT many ways to fail left…get me? We just gotta stop with the “variations on a theme” bullshit.

  • julie

    To Philip #30

    ***”Julie, You say… It is up to men to support men in men’s groups not women.
    Where do you think the womens movement would be today if it was not for the support of men? men who encouraged there bored stay at home wife to get a feminist hobby and the male politicians giving the vote, rich widows using there husbands wealth to support womens groups. men have helped and supported the womens groups from the beginning.****

    I have to be honest on this and being honest means I am lost to what you are saying.

    I have researched a lot of things that I have read by asking older people (and I mean well into their 80′s 90′s and even early 100′s) if all that is said was real. They give so much information but it is about a lot of things. I seriously try and stay away from generalising about the past because there are too many people who don’t agree with the feminist’s view of the past nor men in the MRMs view of the past.

    ****”Your statement is a totally sexist view… be a man and stop moaning , women need helping but men can help them selfs, take it like a man.”***

    I apologise if I gave this impression to you. It is not what I am about. I just know that feminists have run men’s groups in the past and that they were always dictating how men should do things.

    Society where I am is very staunch that men get to run things themselves.

    ***”I think its about time women rode that horse and wore the shiny armor and came to the aid of men!, now that would be equality!!”****

    How do you want women to be the knight in shiny armour?

  • Paul

    What FACTORY has to say is very interesting and should give food for thought. Certainly looking at popular culture and what it is trying to say is probably a much more reliable indicator of how people are really thinking than any amount of theory. So I take seriously what he has to say about pop song lyrics.

    He could be right, may be an opportunity will arise in the next two year or so. But if he is correct I feel that we will be ill prepared to take any leading part in shaping what will follow. I suppose that is the point of all this discussion. There is no large or focal organisation that could harness and shape all this consciousness that has been raised. All that might be left is a lot more undirected and, more importantly, disorganised anger.

    Ironically I think it could be women and even feminist that would high-jack any rising of male consciousness. I would not see this as a good thing.

    I rather agree with FACTORY and view women supporters with suspicion. I think for some they like the idea wealthy protective husbands and might see the MM as something that will help reinstate men into this position. I for one do not see being put back into what some would call a traditional role as anything but a catastrophe.

    So if it is to be young men whose consciousness is to be raised then perhaps it will be their destiny to find a new way forwards, and that way may be nothing like what has gone before. I hope so.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/rogerfgay/ Roger F. Gay

    Mr. Kay.

    Sorry I missed your comment earlier. There’s so much to read and so little time:

    “Bewildered husbands/fathers need some group or organization who will hear their grief and understand from past what is happening to them.”

    Yes. You’re right about that. Writers need to continue explaining what’s going on as well. They need to be accurate and up-to-date.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/rogerfgay/ Roger F. Gay

    By the way, why are people using ‘@’ to address people? Is MND on twitter now?

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/rogerfgay/ Roger F. Gay

    Harry:

    (Men’s / Fathers’ rights part of the whole civil rights problem.)

    “Indeed; which is why I am so disappointed that conservatives and libertarians seem mostly to have failed to link up with those who are at war with feminism.”

    – Stephen Baskerville made some progress with this. He even endorsed the Libertarian Party one year because they embraced the issues – in their own way. All the other parties opposed civil rights.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/rogerfgay/ Roger F. Gay

    Above

    Didn’t mean that’s the only thing Stephen accomplished. He did quite a tour on conservative talk-radio; did conferences etc. I listened to many of the radio interviews that were available via web. My impression – quite successful. But with the so-called “mainstream media” being primarily the politically controlled media, there’s still a barrier to fathers’ rights becoming a central issue in national (should be global) discussions.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/rogerfgay/ Roger F. Gay

    Jay R (post #15)

    “I will agree with Roger F. Gay that, as exemplified by the (anti) “Family Courts”, there is a broader issue of the erosion of individual, Constitutionally-protected liberties. However, I do not agree that a focus on men’s, and particularly fathers’ and family rights, is a distraction from the bigger picture. The destruction of the family, and the intentional displacement of men from the role of family patriarch, has been key to the advancement of feminism, to governmental intrusion into individuals’ personal lives, and to corporate profit.

    [BOLD]I think that the defense of the family, with a particular emphasis on the importance of stable, two-parent families to children’s development, is the logical starting (but not ending) point of the effort to restore Constitutional Rule.”[/BOLD]

    Well said. I hadn’t read all the posts, and honestly didn’t realize that you’d suggested this before I did at the end of post #33.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/2009/09/26/libertarians-hear-but-are-apparrently-mute/ Libertarians Hear, But are Apparrently Mute | MND: Your Daily Dose of Counter-Theory

    [...] [...]

  • Meh

    “A good example of this tactic is the way in which the mainstream media persist in referring to, let us say, men victims of war, as “soldiers”, “troops”, “officers”, “mariners”, “recruits”, “Iraqis”, “Palestinians”, and so on. Whereas when the victims are women then they are almost always referred to as “women”.”

    Umm, because men are the default and women are “the other”. You are not seeing the forest for the trees. *Everything* living is by default a ‘he’, every inanimate object to be looked at (and that’s it) is a “she” (ie., “look at this boat, isn’t she beautiful?” VS “look at that puppy, what’s his name?”, or “ooh, a baby!m Look how cute he is!”). That is why a soldier who is a man is a soldier, why an actor is man and women need a qualifier, why the hero, villain, all the important and significant people in the story are men and then there is “the love interest”. Mena re the actual people, and then there are women. A man’s gender isn’t absent when he dies in a war – it’s ASSUMED. Don’t blame feminism for that.

    “The refusal by much of the mainstream media and the government to properly address false allegations of ‘abuse’ made by women (and children) against men, and, in the case of the media, even in fictional programs and films.”

    “Properly address”? “Much”? Some purposely vague verbiage there. You guys go crazy when a man isn’t convicted of rape and take it to mean the alleged victim LIED. Well, guess what? The AV is entitled to a trial, the AP has to prove beyong a reasonable doubt just like she did. You guys think a male purp should be entitled to all that but then we should hang the AV if there is no conviction, AND that it means she’s lying. Well, no, it would be bad law to suspend the same rights for the AV just because some bitter men have an axe to grind.

    Also, false accusations, false/fraudulent claims, are in general a problem, especially in insurance, etc..

    And it appears you rarely watch those programs if you think they never address false accusations. I mean it’s LAUGHABLE (and they’re stories, NOT documentaries).

    “Biology.

    Men were biologically designed to protect women and to find vulnerable women attractive; e.g. see Women and Chimps.”

    Well that explains why you throw feces at this webpage to see what sticks, right? Just kidding. You are not a biologist and the actual biologists who try to link these bahaviors to humans can barely do that. You need more than, “monkeys do it and we’re kind of like monkeys, so that means we’re hard-wired”. Things that appear to be true in animals that resemble some cultural norms in humans need ACTUAL, BIOLOGICAL evidence to say it’s ingrained in humans. Otherwise, you can take ANY animal and use it to explain away anything in humans. Even when one example contradicts the other.

    “Culture and chivalry.

    For a long time western culture has convinced people that being chivalrous is both good and manly, and so most men believe that it is their duty to protect women (or to look as if it is) and to assist them when they claim to need help.”

    So … what is it, culture, or biology? And if you say “both”, why did that chivalry only protect upper-middle-class white women? Why did it only apply as an award for women who behaved acceptably for men? You’re correct, chivalry has to go. But don’t blame feminism for that. It’s absurd.

    “9. Psychology.

    Western men are highly affected by what women think of them.”

    That’s true of both sexes, but especially women of men. My god, even your weirdo buddy Warren Farrell admitted that in the interview he says doesn’t exist.

    “11. Lethargy.

    Most men have been too busy with their lives and with their various interests to have enough time left over to devote seriously to other matters. And most of the spare time that they have had to themselves has probably been spent unwinding and relaxing.”

    Or, you know, they’re pretty okay with the way things are. But I agree – there should be more done for men, but it’s mostly the status that hurts men, not feminism/imagined feminism. Most of the things that hurt men are intra-gender and class-related. Men hurt other men to remain powerful (women aren’t a threat, at least they weren’t until now and are definitely not as much as men, but you guys blame women/feminsim instead of powerful men probably because you want to hang on to the priviledge). Oh, and men can – and do – make their own shelters, though it is mostly homosexual men because that’s where most abuse perpetrated against men occure and because you guys are more interested in throwing bricks at women and winding back the clocks on grains feminism has made. I don’t know what supposedly happened to Erin “women criticizing men is as bad as men strangling women” Pizzy some 40 years ago has to do with why you guys don’t get off your a** and help your brothers who are abused by men OR women. Oh, that’s right, you want feminists to do that for you too, they’re just not allowed to do it for women…

  • Meh

    Stupid lagging computer. That should say REward, not ‘award’. Sorry about the typos.

  • Harry

    @meh

    I do not have time to go through all your comments, none of which say anything of much interest WRT what I said.

    So, I just pick one …

    “A man’s gender isn’t absent when he dies in a war – it’s ASSUMED. Don’t blame feminism for that.”

    So why has the public terminology changed in the past 40 years – as mentioned in my piece?

    You forgot to address this point.

    How convenient.

  • julie

    To Meh @50,

    **Umm, because men are the default and women are “the other”. You are not seeing the forest for the trees. *Everything* living is by default a ‘he’, every inanimate object to be looked at (and that’s it) is a “she” (ie., “look at this boat, isn’t she beautiful?” VS “look at that puppy, what’s his name?”, or “ooh, a baby!m Look how cute he is!”). That is why a soldier who is a man is a soldier, why an actor is man and women need a qualifier, why the hero, villain, all the important and significant people in the story are men and then there is “the love interest”. Mena re the actual people, and then there are women. A man’s gender isn’t absent when he dies in a war – it’s ASSUMED. Don’t blame feminism for that.**

    This can’t be right because it doesn’t make sense.

    When a woman commits a violent act, the media says a person (a soldier, a police officer, an office worker) did it where as when a man commits a violent act, the media says a man did it.

    ***“Properly address”? “Much”? Some purposely vague verbiage there. You guys go crazy when a man isn’t convicted of rape and take it to mean the alleged victim LIED. Well, guess what? The AV is entitled to a trial, the AP has to prove beyong a reasonable doubt just like she did. You guys think a male purp should be entitled to all that but then we should hang the AV if there is no conviction, AND that it means she’s lying. Well, no, it would be bad law to suspend the same rights for the AV just because some bitter men have an axe to grind.***

    How does a woman have to prove rape beyond a reasonable doubt when restrictions are put on the defence lawyers to protect the woman’s feelings? How does a woman prove beyond a reasonable doubt when she doesn’t even have to be in the courtroom with the defendant? How does a woman prove beyond a reasonable doubt when police on behalf of government are the ones who have to prove guilt while Judges are under pressure to convict more because feminists whine there are not enough men being found guilty?

    No! A woman doesn’t have to prove a man guilty, a man has to prove himself innocent. In law, when you prove yourself innocent, you are entitled to compensation. Where is the compensation for the falsely accused?

    ***Also, false accusations, false/fraudulent claims, are in general a problem, especially in insurance, etc..***

    False rape complaints and insurance fraud are not the same thing.

    RE: Men were biologically designed to protect women and to find vulnerable women attractive; e.g. see Women and Chimps.”
    ***You are not a biologist and the actual biologists who try to link these bahaviors to humans can barely do that.***

    That’s debatable and has been debated for many years. It is like creation and evolution. It will continue to be debated until more evidence comes IMHO. Now where is that damn biology certificate? I am sure I have one lying around here somewhere. :D

    ***So … what is it, culture, or biology? And if you say “both”, why did that chivalry only protect upper-middle-class white women? Why did it only apply as an award for women who behaved acceptably for men? You’re correct, chivalry has to go. But don’t blame feminism for that. It’s absurd.***

    I am of the notion Chivalry is not dead and I see it in lower class more than upper class. I believe it applies to women no matter what they are like. I also think feminists are constantly asking men to be chivalrous and the white ribbon campaign is a perfect example. It asks men to take on other men for women.

    RE:“9. Psychology.
    Western men are highly affected by what women think of them.”
    **That’s true of both sexes, but especially women of men. My god, even your weirdo buddy Warren Farrell admitted that in the interview he says doesn’t exist.**

    You would think it is true of both sexes but these days women’s liberation seems to mean, “I don’t care what men think of me. I’m entitled”. It is even encouraged.

    ***Or, you know, they’re pretty okay with the way things are. But I agree – there should be more done for men, but it’s mostly the status that hurts men, not feminism/imagined feminism.***

    Actually, it really is feminism that hurts men. Feminist that come out of school say it is women and children first and then men. Feminists who are up in the ranks say the same thing. Men can’t get funding to do things they way they want either. Everything has to be approved by feminists. In some countries every single move that government makes has to consider how it will affect feminists. There is alot of paperwork involved in policy development and feminists have to not just be consulted but there has to be a part where they will benefit.

    *** Most of the things that hurt men are intra-gender and class-related. Men hurt other men to remain powerful (women aren’t a threat, at least they weren’t until now and are definitely not as much as men, but you guys blame women/feminsim instead of powerful men probably because you want to hang on to the priviledge).***

    Women are more of a threat to men IMHO because the laws protect women. You see, as well as men being chivalrous to women, the government is. If women are wanting power, a simple threat of, “I’ll phone the police because you are intimidating me” give women the upper hand in everything. They are handed all privileges without a fight, even an argument. Women are the holier than holy.

    ****Oh, and men can – and do – make their own shelters, though it is mostly homosexual men because that’s where most abuse perpetrated against men occure and because you guys are more interested in throwing bricks at women and winding back the clocks on grains feminism has made.***

    Actually, heterosexual men can’t get funding for shelters. It’s a ‘no no’ in policy because they are the perpetrators of heterosexual women. Gays can get funding for shelters because they are also considered a victim to heterosexual males. Don’t believe me, ask your local police station. lol

    *** I don’t know what supposedly happened to Erin “women criticizing men is as bad as men strangling women” Pizzy some 40 years ago has to do with why you guys don’t get off your a** and help your brothers who are abused by men OR women. Oh, that’s right, you want feminists to do that for you too, they’re just not allowed to do it for women…***

    Phew, near the end. This is work alright. :D

    Anyhoo, Erin Prissy is not the only women’s refuge worker who doesn’t agree with the way things are being handled. Quite a number of women’s refuges refuse to be part of the feminists collective. Thank God/Goddess my city is one of them.

  • julie

    I suppose I should state my errors. :D

    Quote:

    “It’s a ‘no no’ in policy because they are the perpetrators of heterosexual women. ”

    That should have been, “It’s a ‘no no’ in policy because men are the only sex considered perpetrators under radical feminism”

    And Erin Prizzy should have been Erin Pizzy.

  • http://modulus.blogetery.com Mike

    Watching a football game the other day (NFL), I noticed all the men were wearing pink… Pink gloves, pink shoes, pink ribbons, etc… And I knew instantly that we were playing today for breast cancer.

    Fine, whatever… Cancer is terrible.

    Why are we never playing for prostate cancer though? Why is there no ribbon for men and their health issues? Even in a male dominated game like football (not just the majority players and coaches are men, but also spectators) we don’t represent ourselves very well.

    I’m on board with you, and through my own blog, and my own interpersonal dealings, I hope to help spread this message. Thank you for this eye opening article. I’ll be sure to forward it to everyone I care about.






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