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Are Husbands Expected to Carry on the Role of the Wife’s Father?

2009-11-25
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They say that if you “ride with horse thieves you will get “hung with them”. I wonder if the opposite might also be true: “if you ride with the meek and innocent you will get protected and pampered with them”. Of course, I am talking about chivalry (one of the prominent forms of anti-male sexism). When the media proclaims that 25 people are dead, and adds the sexist/irrelevant information that “many of the dead included women and children,” we can see how women are treated like special children by mere association while the deceased men are merely thankless “adults” who don’t deserve mention. It is ironic how the “white picket fences” symbolic of mostly male bread winning and earning look remarkably similar to the “white crosses” at Arlington cemetery that symbolize mostly male death and disposability. As they say, girls are sugar and spice and everything nice. Small wonder research shows that people like and care for women more than men (which was named by the researcher the “women are wonderful effect”. Some say this is progress. I say it is prejudice.

It is customary that a boyfriend must work hard to “impress” his girlfriend’s father by convincing him that he will “take good care of her” almost as if it is the father’s destiny to someday “pass the torch” of “fatherhood” to the husband so that he can continue to carry on the role of the “father figure” to the female (who is often expected to remain a child). The “adult husband” and “child wife” symbolism is evident when “overprotective” fathers (and some mothers) run a virtual background check on the boyfriend to make sure he is “suitable material” for his daughter in terms of what he can provide and care for his wife. Films like “Meet the Parents” reveal this anti-male expectation that males are often expected to be the protective and bread winning adults whose primary role is to accept the father’s torch and treat his wife as if she were a child.

By mere association, it doesn’t take long for the phrase “women and children” to become construed to mean “women ARE children”. As such, it is amazing how many examples there are that indicate how males are often expected to carry the torch of adulthood while females are often expected to be “given away” by her father only to be received by the welcoming hands of the new “surrogate father”….the husband. It is amazing how males seem to be socialized, manipulate, and brainwashed to “enjoy protecting women” just as much as females are socialized to “enjoy being protected by men”. There are a plethora of examples of how males are expected to be “responsible, heroic, disposable, protective, and bread winning adults” while females are expected to be helpless children or “damsels in distress”.

The examples of “husband as father” and “wife as child” are ubiquitous. I call them the five sexist “P’s” of manhood (which are actually somewhat similar to the 3 “p”s described earlier by Warren Farrell): Provide, protect, persist, pamper, and play-fair:

1. Fathers and husbands are each often socialized and manipulated to provide for others while wives and children are each often socialized to be provided for. This anti-male bias can be verified by the number of “stay at home” females compared to the number of “stay at home” males. The research by David Buss also sheds light on how males are objectified as success objects.

2. Fathers and husbands are each often socialized to protect others at their own expense while wives and children are each often socialized to receive the luxury of being protected, staying healthy, and being spared during threats of danger. This anti-male bias can be verified by the male-only draft, the work-fatality gap, suicide ratio, homelessness ratio, prison ratio, longevity gap, the greater number of war casualties, females being treated with kid gloves and receiving lesser sentences for the same crimes, and the greater emphasis in society placed on womens health compared to mens health. Warren Farrell’s “Myth of Male Power” covers many of these issues eloquently. In other manner of speaking, males seem to be socialized to “play the hero” while females are socialized to “play the victim”. It is telling that there is no phrase “take it like a woman” to guilt females into “knowing their place”. It is also telling that men are expected to feel “emasculated” if they step outside their restrictive gender role. It is also quite telling that “effemilated” isn’t even considered a word….which suggests that females face less pressure to “man up” and “suck it up”.

3. Fathers and husbands are each often socialized to persist and “take it like a man” and withhold their tears while wives and children often have the child-like permission to cry, complain, and demand attention. As they say: “big boys don’t cry.” Herb Goldberg’s “Hazards of Being Male” covers many of these issues eloquently.

4. Fathers and husbands are each often socialized and manipulated to pamper and bestow gifts unto others while wives and children are each often socialized to happily accept the gifts of comfort and pleasure. Bernice Kanner’s “Pocketbook Power” provides evidence of the female-dominated “spending gap”. Esther Vilar’s “Manipulated Man” is also an informative book about some of these disparities in “male giving” and “female getting”.

5. Fathers and husbands are each often socialized to play fair while sometimes “letting others win” while wives and children are each often socialized to accept special treatment, affirmative actions, handicaps, leeway, safety nets, and other perks of being “meek, helpless, and innocent”.

These are five examples of how I believe that husbands are expected to “carry the torch” of adult and fatherly responsibility. The phrase “daddy’s girl” is fraught with images of an innocuous and charming “tom boy”. The phrase “mamma’s boy,” on the other hand, is fraught with images of a dork who still lives with his parents and is a freeloader unworthy of receiving amorous affection from those with xx chromosomes. It is considered perfectly innocuous for a woman to say she wants to marry someone “just like her father”. If a guy said he wants to marry someone “just like his mother” he would probably be branded a pervert. There still seems to be a stigma about guys who want to feel nurtured, protected, and cared for.

I believe it is time for males and females to share equally the roles of responsibility and entitlement. Women are not children. And men are not “beasts of burden” (as symbolized by characters like “B.O.B. the Builder” whose first name coincidentally is an aptly spelled acronym). I call for a “new chivalry” where we pamper and protect men, women, and children equally in relation to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Gender roles hurt us all. And just because females, puppies, and children are supposedly more “cute,” “cuddly,” and “lovable” than men this does not mean things are morally correct. Everybody deserves to be loved.

It is a somewhat common image to see little girls dance on their fathers feet to emulate the “cute” persona of the proverbial “daddy’s girl”. It is interesting to note that in the film “Twilight” Edward (the boyfriend) allowed Bella to dance on his feet as if she were his child.

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  • Joe P.

    My, my. How very civil everyone is here. And its as goofy as the black slave telling the plantation owner, “what a fair master you are.”

    Feminism, like Islam, (or slave-owners) has its so-called “moderates.” Yet the vast majority of those associated with these hateful ideologies say nothing when their respective extremists destroy lives…..and they’re not fooling the serious MRA. In their heart of hearts, feminists of all stripes are doing mental high-fives out of an indoctrinated belief that “its their turn now.”

    Jenny may actually believe that feminism is merely, “arguing for the same rights and treatment as men” in the UK, but there is another reality she is either unaware of or chooses to ignore.

    I associate with dozens of British expats here in SE Asia and they have a somewhat different perspective. Never have I known men that were more cowed. This once-great empire has been reduced to a politically correct laboratory that systematically emasculates men under color of law. The UK has become an Orwellian animal farm that squashes anyone who doesn’t pay enthusiastic lip service to the liberal mantra that white males are the oppressor of women and minorities. Every MRA talking point is magnified there.

    The latest absurdity? An advertising blitz that says if you meet and have drinks with a woman at pub, become intimate with her…..then YOU are a rapist. She’s a criminal if she drinks and drives, but if she drinks and has sex, suddenly she’s a helpless child who has been molested without her consent.

    The Brits I know hate you, Jenny, and they are never going back to your feminized utopia unless its to work and save enough money to leave again.

    And, masculist, you need to stop being so damn polite. Feminists, and their Alpha male enablers, like every priveleged class in history, are never going to give up power voluntarily, especially when they conned themselves and the social majority that they really are victims.

  • Masculist

    Hi Jenny. It is me again. I was thinking about what you said earlier. I don’t want more fair feminists like you to get the wrong idea of what I stand for, so I am pasting a link below to an article I published called “United Feminism and Masculism”. It is most certainly an “olive branch” type of essay. If you have the time, please peruse it:

    http://www.ifeminists.com/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.345

    In other business, the second paragraph of my last post had serious errors. It should have read:

    “I try to keep my essays more “logical” and free of “anger” than I do with my informal responses. Please understand that the men’s movement is going through a similar situation as the feminists had to go through 50 years ago. How would you feel if dictionaries included definitions for “masculism” but not “feminism”? How would you feel if dictionaries had definitions for “MISANDRY” but not “misogyny”? And perhaps most importantly, how would you feel if dictionaries defined sexism as being more common against men than with women? My suspicion is that you would be angry, and I wouldn’t blame you. I am not saying that “anger” is wonderful, but I think it is sometimes understandable”.

    Best,

    Darrin (Masculist)

    P.S. One of the angriest masculists I know of is “Angry Harry”, and he is from the U.K. I still think he makes many good points beneath his veneer of hurt, sadness, and anger.

  • Masculist

    Hello Jenny. Thanks for the reply. Please know that when I “bash” feminists it is the Politically Correct variety who follow the Duluth Model of male perp/femae victim dichotomy. Feminists like yourself sound much more fair. In fact, I just recently wrote an essay entitled: Do PC feminists really think that women are too weak…or just too special? I consider myself both a feminist and a masculist who believes that gender roles restrict us all.

    I try to keep my essays more “logical” and free of “anger” than I do with my informal responses. Please understand that the men’s movement is going through a similar situation as the feminists had to go through 50 years ago. How would you feel if dictionaries included definitions for “masculism” but not “feminism”? How would you feel if dictionaries had definitions for “misogyny” but not “misandry”? And perhaps most importantly, how would you feel if dictioanaries defined sexism as being more common with women? My suspicion is that you would be angry, and I wouldn’t blame you. I am not saying that “anger” is wonderful, but I think it is sometimes understandable.

    I have also felt some of men’s oppression firsthand. I was kicked out of a social justice forum in my university who refused to put men’s issues on the official agenda. The whole club even publicly signed a paper saying that “men’s rights” is not something they agree with and they put it in the school paper for all to see. Not only that, but they attempted to slander me in the campus newspaper as well by calling me hurtful names. I even had a faculty in my former program who would hardly let me get a word in edgewise in the PC climate of my university.

    I am actually quite “tame” as far as masculists are concerned, because by the end of the day I also consider myself a feminist. This is not the case for many men who have been destroyed by the courts. Many of these men no longer identify with any form of feminism whatsoever.

    I hope that helps Jenny, and I am sorry if I came across a bit defensive in my previous replies. It is just a stressful time for men and boys right now, and I think a little bit of anger here and there is understandable as long as it doesn’t get out of hand.

    Best,

    Darrin
    MS Psychology

  • jenny

    Dear Masculist,
    I really rather enjoyed your article and argument. It offers much food for thought, but while I agree with your main argument, I am rather bemused at the feminist bashing that appears to come from you after your well-reasoned article. I read your article to say that at the end of the day, men and women are human beings and therefore deserve the same rights and treatment. That is what many feminists today- at least in the UK- are arguing as well, so I remain quite bemused.
    All the best,
    Jenny

  • Dabir Dalton

    Marc the problem with Glen Sacks is that he at can best be described as a male feminist who is a father’s rights activist…However when it comes to men’s rights he just isn’t interested and fails to see how father’s rights and men’s rights are connected…Without men’s rights there can be no father’s rights and without father’s rights there can be no men’s rights. He is also a dictator who will not tolerant dissent on his site and more than any other person he has pushed me (a married male) away from supporting either the men’s or the father’s rights movement.

    Which is sad because its married men (lots and lots) like myself that the movement needs to attract to gain credibility instead of mainly divorced men gripping about having to pay child support.

    Until there is a major sea change in the thinking of many of the leaders of the father’s and men’s rights movement it will continue to suffer from a severe lack of credibility nor will either movement move beyond the tailspin they are experiencing at this time.

  • Dabir Dalton

    Here Here and Kudos to you Marc…I couldn’t have said this better myself…

  • Marc A.

    “Pardon my derision, but talk about an oxymoron….would that be anything like a “conservative feminist?””

    I’m among many who consider themselves progressive and also a men’s rights activits. And you can snort all you like but I see no contradiction at all. I’ve been an active MRA for 10 years and have overturned anti-male laws, organized street rallies, filed numerous lawsuits organized NCFM’s L.A. chapter, etc. etc. But my background politics are left-leaning or “progressive.” That doesn’t mean I buy everything about the left, just as alot of right-leaning MRAs don’t buy everything about the right, such as the “war on drugs” and the male-only draft and the right’s attack on deadbeat dads or the right’s alignment with feminism against porn and prostitution. I’ve seen many, many instances where the left stepped in to protect men’s rights and where the right had no interest in doing the same. Recently it was the ACLU, not a right wing group, that argued for the rights of domestic violence suspects to have an evidentiary hearing before being accused of DV and losing their rights to their kids.
    http://www.ctlawtribune.com/getarticle.aspx?ID=35377

    The ACLU also stopped courts from jailing men without hearings for nonpayment of child support, and stopped the police in L.A. from confiscating men’s cars for soliciting prostitutes. Where were all the man-loving right wing groups? Too busy spending on war and prisons whose victims are over 90% male?

    Then there are the left-leaning nations who have supported shared parenting and joint custody, like Belgium and Holland.

    “Belgium on the initiative of its Socialist Party now has implemented presumptive 50/50 joint physical custody legislation (effective bi-location of the children) after parental separation . . . .” http://fkce.wordpress.com/2009/01/03/13/

    “Canadians claiming to be Liberal and Bloc supporters, expressed the strongest endorsement for equal shared parenting, at 80.6% among Liberals and 82.9% among Bloc Quebecois supporters. http://rationshed.wordpress.com/2009/06/16/canada-equal-parenting-bill-c-422-introduced-this-morning-in-parliament-by-mp-maurice-vellacott/

    It is also interesting that the only celebrities who have spoken out for men’s rights are also progressive/liberals – Bob Geldof and Alec Baldwin.

    Many other liberal MRAs such as Glenn Sacks, Warren Farrell and myself have made many inroads and advances for men’s rights.

    I don’t buy it at all that an MRA has to be a conservative or that it’s an oxymoron to be a progressive MRA, and I think Masculist dude is a great example. Men’s rights activism is about men’s equal rights. Not necessarily “equality” but equal rights under the law, that being in family law, child custody, male DV victims, military selection, criminal sentencing, etc. etc. The Oxford Companion to Philosophy defines “Masculism” as “the belief that men have been systematically discriminated against, and that that discrimination should be eliminated.”

    I also find that those who insist that MRAs must be of one political background or another are often those who really don’t do much for the movement themselves in terms of activism. I rarely see them organizing rallies (which requires that one be open to the differing political views within the movement) or other types of serious work, other than yacking on the internet and putting down other MRAs for their political backgrounds.

    There are many, MANY liberall, progressive and left-leaning MRAs and I’m thankful to see that number grow.

    Thank you Masculist for your excellent work. Please keep doing what you’re doing despite the occasional criticism from the politically-driven.

  • Masculist

    From the DSM4-TR (page 579):

    “Females with Gender Identity Disorders generally experience less ostracism because of cross-gender interests and may suffer less from peer rejection, at least until adolescence. In child clinic samples, boys with this disorder are referred for evaluation much more frequently than are girls. In adult clinic samples, men outnumber women by about two or three times. In children, the referral bias toward males may partly reflect the greater stigma that cross-gender behavior carries for boys than for girls”.

  • DonnieH

    Someone pointed out to me that many cultures have fables about women taking on the identity and behavioral attributes of a man in an approving/heroic fashion, but not the reciprocal. The times that men/boys dress and act like women/girls (e.g., Huck Finn) it’s usually presented as a shameful act born of necessity (the Hollywood meme’d Mrs. Doubtfire and Tootsie not withstanding). If someone can point to an historical example where a man masquerading as a woman is presented approvingly, I’d appreciate it.

    I think this is one of the reasons many feminists are so frustrated and unhappy: After decades of social experimentation, they have come to the inescapable conclusion that men are different, and that the feminists need systemic advantages to have any hope of competing in what men have traditionally done. I think many women are scared to death of having male intellect, focus, and energy displace them in the home/nursery. One of the most profound effects of recent feminism is that it exposed to a lot of men who might otherwise have missed it, just how little time and effort “housework” takes (and how much more enjoyable spending time with children is compared to spending time at work).

  • DcFather

    Treating women like a dependent and irresponsible child is fine if that is your choice. But government has no authority to force men to do it, most importantly when she is absconding with his child-aged children and demanding superior rights just for having a vagina. But that’s how lawyers, judges, and others make the most money, and don’t have to worry about feminists complaining about women being treated as adults.

  • http://www.unitywall.com TXM

    I had a long talk with a friend of mine from the Sudan about the differences in gender roles in our two countries.

    His people have arranged marriages that are big business deals between the two families. Divorces are still allowed, but extreme pressure is put on the couple (usually the woman) to remain in the marriage. If the husband is abusive, her male relatives go to his house and beat him up, and make him promise to take better care of her.

    After (the rare) divorce, custody of the children is normally granted to the man. Often the woman chooses to leave her kids because her existance is dependant on finding a new man (who wouldn’t want to raise some other guys kids) But if she wants to stay with the kids, she can remain in her ex-husband’s household (not his house, the family compound) where she continues to be treated with respect as the children’s mother. However, she cannot bring a new man into her ex-husband’s house. Talk about traditional roles!

    As I listened to my friend talk, a wave of relief actually washed over my body, and I started seriously thinking about becoming an ex-pat. I know a lot of guys on here talk about that, but I had never seriously considered it before.

    My same friend was contemplating marrying an American woman! I warned him against it! But he is a very intellectual guy, and I don’t think he is interested in having kids. He was still going to let his brother pick his wife, “someone well bred, from a good family”.

    What the heck does “well bred” even mean when it comes to a woman?

    He was confident that he could find happiness in America in a more typically American relationship. I’m not so sure, but the point is that there are still a lot of choices out there. When we talk about traditional gender roles in society, we act as if we will only be limited to one single set of choices. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    For example, Masculist points out that men work at far more dangerous jobs than women do. However, the majority of men do not work at dangerous jobs. I think a guy who went fishing in the Bering Sea (I’ve done that) needs a certain kind of wife. An extremely patient, understanding woman who will wait for her man, and endure the worry of his going out to sea, etc. Meanwhile, an accountant living in Seattle could do very well with a completely different kind of wife. Maybe a working professional who takes a lot of business related trips, etc.

    What men need are choices! I like the sound of that! What I think the problem is, is that the elite, wealthy, educated women of this country have been writing the laws that affect ALL the women of this country. Trust me, that lifestyle won’t help the wife of 90% of the men in this country. These laws simply won’t work for the majority of men (or women) out here. The divorce statistics prove that. The destruction of the family will be the “ruination” of this country.

  • Geoff

    I’d like to chime in. As a single male who dates a lot I am confounded by the changing and flip flopping a woman partakes in with regard to behavior. I would think it would be draining to claim empowerment on one hand and than have to fake a yawn when the bill for dinner comes. The gentlemen had it right: women have several options for behavior or roles while men are pigeonholed in the same old crappy role.

  • Masculist

    Hi Joe P. And thanks for the reply. I am a volunteer member of NCFM, which is a non-political organization that aims to end anti-male sex discrimination. I also have a Masters degree in psychology and did a plethora of research on mens health, disposability, and stress. I don’t get paid to be a masculist or member of NCFM. My aim is to create a safer, healthier, happier, and less dangerous world for men and boys (including myself). In other words, men and women alike have an equal right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. This means equal PAIN and equal PAMPERING.

    Below is the definition of “masculism” from the Oxford Companion to Philosophy. Notice that the definition does NOT take a partisan stance, leaving the window open for progressive and conservative masculists alike to engage in their activism in their own ways:

    Masculism: The belief that men have been systematically discriminated against, and that that discrimination can be eliminated.

    I believe that the phrase “liberal feminist” is actually the real oxymoron. Why? Because I don’t think many self-proclaimed “liberal” feminists are nearly as liberal as they think they are (or claim to be). In other words, I believe that feminists in general are actually very CONSERVATIVE and TRADITIONAL when it comes to retaining female privileges like CHIVALRY and MATERIALISM and DOUBLE STANDARDS. Also, it is hardly “liberal” when feminists engage in so much male-bashing and hatred of men. That is the opposite of what “liberals” are supposed to be about. We give feminists too much credit by calling them “liberals” when they are really not.

    I don’t think the phrase “progressive masculist” is an oxymoron at all. I see it as a progressive voice proclaiming how oppressive the “beast of burden” disposable male gender role has always been…..even well before feminism reared its ugly head. When I say “progressive masculist” I am NOT referring to the political issue of small or big government per se. I am mostly referring to a person who opposes restrictive male gender roles.

    Anyway, I am not alone. The most famous of all masculists, Warren Farrell himself, opposes restrictive gender roles. Just read “myth of male power” and notice his discourse on “type 2 societies”. Other masculists who opposed traditional gender roles (directly or covertly) include esther vilar (manipulated man), herb goldberg (hazards of being male: surviving the myth of masculine privilege), jack kammer (if women have all of the power how come women make the rules), roy schenk (other side of the coin: causes and consequences of mens oppression), etc.

    Progressive masculists generally believe that men and boys have been “chained to the plow” for far too long. We are tired of being manipulated into being worker bees to serve the queen. We are tired of being expected to give more than we take. We are tired of being manipulated into “taking it like a man” and denying our own hurts and vulnerabilities. We are tired of being objectified by how much we can provide or earn.

    I can’t speak for everyone, but I refuse to “take a bullet” for a woman if she is not willing to do the same for me. I am NOT attracted to any woman who expects me to be her “giving provider” while pampering her as the “taking consumer”.

    Best,

    Darrin
    NCFM

  • jon

    I said “mistified.” That’s pretty bad even for me.

  • Joe P.

    “Progressive masculist.”

    (Audible snort)

    Pardon my derision, but talk about an oxymoron….would that be anything like a “conservative feminist?”

    As to the current state of gender relations, socially and under the law, liberal MRAs finally acknowledge something legitimate to feel guilty about…the incremental destruction of morality and common sense within western culture, though, in fairness, it couldn’t have been accomplished without (some) partisan support.

    I know I’m not adding anything constructive to the discussion here, and I apologize for that. What’s done is done.

    Jon said it all with, “The problem as I see it is that women have abandoned (their) traditional responsibilities while demanding that men continue on with theirs.”

    So, how do we fix that without sounding like a bunch of whiners? Feminists have amassed their power by spewing out bogus statistics that went unchallenged. MRAs need to make people aware of their own statistics, but with irrefutable fact sources, beginning with paid-for advertisements directed at the YOUNG, even highschool age. On public transportation walls, billboards, radio, and events that attract them. If the seeds of truth are planted now, maybe our grandsons will enjoy the benefits of the 14th amendment to the constitution.

  • Masculist

    Hello TXM. I appreciate your reply.

    The point you make is the fork in the road where conservative and liberal masculists tend to differ (although liberal and conservative masculists alike oppose the idea of a “Patriarchy” and share some common ground on certain issues). Conservative masculists generally favor reviving traditional gender roles. Progressive masculists (like myself) generally favor abolishing restrictive male and female gender roles and allowing each of us to decide for ourselves who we really are and who we want to be without societal restraints. Warren Farrell calls this the “Type 2 society”. This means allowing females access to “male privileges” while allowing males access to “female privileges”.

    Progressive masculists generally believe that the traditional male gender role was oppressive way before feminism came along. Progressive masculists believe that men have always been the vast majority of war casualties, the homeless, those in prison, domestic violence bias, those who die on the job, victims of violence, prison rapes, suicides, emotional repression, expectations to “take it like a man”, expectations that it is more manly to “give” than to “take”, war casualties, victims of the longevity gap, domestic violence bias, custody/divorce bias, alimony bias, victims of the female sentencing discount, pay gap myth, longevity gap, female dominated spending gap, and oppressive expectations that men must be the boring “adults” who provide and protect the female.

    I don’t think it is realistic to revive age-old gender roles. It is not as if society is going to “pull women out of the workforce” anytime soon and put them back in the kitchen. In terms of “doing the most with the resources available”, I think it makes the most pragmatic sense to “speak the language” of the “enemy”. In other words, we gotta show the PC feminists how they are being hypocritical and beat them at their own game. I realize that to many people “liberal” is a dirty word, but I think it is important to show PC feminists that they are NOT acting as “liberal” or open minded as they think they are….but rather that they are acting just like the “bigots” they supposedly oppose.

    People are MUCH more susceptible to societal influence and “brainwashing” than they think they are. One just has to read about the Milgrim Shock Experiment to see the power of “blind obedience”. One just has to read about the Asch Studies on Conformity to see the power of “conformity”. One just has to read about the Zimbardo Prison Study to see the power of self-fulfilling prophecy and role playing. Even the government banned the documentary by John Huston “let there be light” about the epidemic of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in WW2 Veterans. It was banned because our own government wanted to spread the illusion that men were more than capable of handling the harsh realities of war unflinchingly. It turns out that men and boys really are human beings with feelings. Males and females alike have an equal right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

    I have NEVER heard a feminist make excuses for their oppression by blaming things like “rape” or wife-battering on “biological destiny”. Below is a link to a recent essay I wrote about the problematic idea of the men’s movement “taking it like a man” and excusing their own disposability. Men are NOT disposable. And we can do something about it.

    http://mensnewsdaily.com/2009/11/16/blaming-biological-destiny-for-male-disposability-is-a-form-of-learned-helplessness/

    Best,

    Darrin

  • jon

    I continue to be mistified by the obsession with equality. I don’t understand why men and women should be expected to be equal. It’ll never happen. Men and women are different in many obvious ways. The relationship between the sexes does not call for equality. In a marriage, for example, equality is meaningless. What is going to be equal? What won’t be equal? Rights and responsibilities do need to go together. For example, if men are expected to do something that women are not there should be a right that they have that women do not, or women should be expected to do something that men are not to make up for it. The problem as I see it is that women have abandoned their traditional responsibilities while demanding that men continue on with theirs. The idea that gender roles can or should be eliminated makes absolutely no sense to me. They will need to change as the world changes but they can’t and shouldn’t be seen as entirely wrong. The key is to keep them as fair and reasonable as possible so no role gets stuck with far more responsibilities and far fewer rights than the other. They have to be reasonably practical and efficient as well, something that equality is not.

  • http://www.unitywall.com TXM

    I’m sitting here wondering how much of this behavior in socialized (in both men and women) and how much is inherent.

    But before I go down the “chicken or the egg” pathway, I just wanted to say that one of my biggest complaints of the feminist movment was this unadulterated rush for “equality” and for all things to be “equal” between the sexes, when anyone who has raised kids can tell you that boys and girls are just “different” from each other in fundamental ways. I am against trying to make men and women act the same way.

    My other complaint is against “equality” for things like work and political office, while special treatment is required for dating, child support and dangerous work, etc. We should be either all equal, or all special, don’t you think? Not some blatantly unfair mismash.

    I don’t think a healthy man’s impulse to protect a woman (his woman) and his children is an artificial social construct. Nor do I think that well intentioned people should attempt to alter such behavior. I don’t think that makes men disposable. I think that is an important part of being a man (and not just because I’ve been conditioned to think that).

    Other societies treat their women as chattel. What are the implications of that? Who is better off, Afghanistan or America? Does the way we treat our women contribute to the overall health of our nation? I think that it does.

    However, I think that a lot of women are also dissatisfied with the way they are treated. If a child is spoiled growing up, they are denied the hardships of life that we all need to grow into maturity. On this I agree with the author.

    My problem is that I really don’t know what a mature healthy woman looks like, or what a girl needs to grow into one. The essential question is, in my view, “What would I want for my daughter?”

  • Michael

    I largely agree with the above and personally take a stance of “behave like an adult, and I treat you like an adult” resp. “behave like a child, and I treat you like a child” towards women. (Not in the sense “I’ll take care of you”, but in the sense “I’ll tell you what to do”.)

    However, feminists typically take the exact same phenomena and consider them anti-woman, rather than anti-man. While their view is extremely one-sided, it is not entirely incorrect, and we should beware that this problem goes both ways. In the end: For equality to work, we have to have equality in every aspect, not just in those aspects the feminists have cherry-picked for themselves.







Right.

Man up.

Buy the book now on Amazon.com. Or listen to Ronnie tell a story at escaping-from-reality.com.

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