The Myth of Women’s Oppression

2009-11-29
By

Forty some odd years ago, feminists bellowed their way into mainstream attention, launching a major offensive on what they called a patriarchal system that had oppressed women for centuries.

Painting women as downtrodden and powerless, they railed against men with the missionary zeal of abolitionists and with largely the same message.

In short, women were slaves and men were their masters. They demanded liberation and have been making demands every since.

They did a magnificent job of pitching all this. That could be a testament to the inherent truth in their ideas. Or it might be something else, like the fact that they already had so much power that few were willing to question anything they said in the first place.

You can put your money on the latter, because even a remotely objective examination of the facts leads to a far more reasonable conclusion.

Women were never oppressed to begin with. Not even close.

I’m no historian, but I did attend some history classes before I finished middle school. So, by the time I was 13, I knew what oppression was. And lucky for me I was 13 in a time when people still knew what it wasn’t.

Oppression has some pretty obvious tell tale signs. Like torture and death; like bullwhips and chains; gas chambers and death camps. Oppression is a roadmap of scars on the back of a field hand that was purchased at an auction. It is the rope that gets strung over a tree branch in broad daylight and used to choke the life out of someone convicted of being the wrong color.

It is an indelible stain on humanity, void of compassion, dehumanizing both the oppressed and the oppressor. And the evidence of it is so offensive to modern sensibilities that we preserve proof of it as lessons for the coming generations.

Now, when we compare those things to the historical world of women, which was largely one of being protected and provided for, we get an entirely different picture. It is a portrait not of the oppressed, but of the privileged. And it begs a good many questions that need to be answered.

For instance, how many times in history did we have slaves with the first rights to a seat in the lifeboat? Which slave masters were compelled to go off to war to protect the lives of their slaves? How many oppressors tore their own bodies down with brutal labor so that they could provide food and shelter for those they oppressed?

Zero sounds like a good answer.

It also makes one wonder, or should, how many slave masters had to get on their knees before their prospective slaves, bearing gold and jewels to ask permission to be their master? How many slaves could say “no” and wait for a better deal?

How about another goose egg?

It’s not coincidental that feminists pointed to marriage as an oppressive institution. Pointing at nothing and making a lot of noise has worked pretty well for them. And so, in a collective fit of neurotic activism they attacked the one institution that had served as the source of more support and protection for women than any other in history. They became obsessed with depicting a walk down the wedding isle as the path to oppression; each woman’s personal Trail of Tears.

You couldn’t buy this kind of crazy if you were Bill Gates.

“Hey!” some feminists are shrieking by now, “What about voting rights? Women were not allowed to vote! That’s oppression!”

Well, no, it’s not. And all we need to do is look at the history of voting in America to prove it.

In the beginning, almost no one could vote. It was a right reserved for a few older white males who owned land, which left almost all men and a lot of other people out of the picture. This doesn’t say anything particularly special about women. So if this constituted oppression, then it meant that nearly everyone was oppressed. Maybe the early Americans didn’t catch on to that one because they were too busy…celebrating their new found freedom.

Anyway, as time passed, because men of good values wrote an amazing constitution, voting rights were expanded to other groups. First to the men who didn‘t own land, then later to other ethnic groups, then still later to women. Even further down the road the voting age was lowered bringing another large group of people into the fold. And today we are debating the voting rights of illegal aliens.

Formerly oppressed hamsters may be next.

And we should consider that there was something of a tradeoff for women regarding the vote. Like exclusion from combat and men compelled to turn over the fruit of their labors and to die for them at the drop of a hat. Perhaps it wasn’t a fair tradeoff, mainly to the men. But proof of women’s oppression? Comedians pay for material that isn’t nearly this funny.

The same was true for owning land. Plenty of women weren’t allowed to…for a while, anyway. It probably had something to do with the fact that it was men who had to have land  on which to build women homes, or perhaps they figured that men who were expected to face bullets in order to protect that land might be better, more deserving keepers of it.

Who knows what insanities plagued us before feminism restored us to reason.

Whatever the reasons, those rules weren’t long lived. Besides, not being able to own land was pretty much softened by the fact that women could choose men to provide it for them through that oppressive institution of marriage, and the phallocentric, linear thinking alleged tyrants that they married.

I am old enough to remember well the older rules for men. Work hard and take care of your woman. Be prepared to lay down your life for her. Watch your mouth in the presence of a lady. Offer her your seat, even if she is a stranger. The same for opening doors and lighting smokes.

Disrespect her and risk a beating. Touch her in the wrong way and you’re a dead man.

This isn’t the way oppressed people are treated. But we do have another word for those fortunate enough to benefit from these kinds of standards.

Royalty.

We didn’t coin the term “princess” for women without a good reason.

With a few trivial exceptions, this has always been the gold standard for the treatment of women. The fact that this is beginning to change, that men are starting to put the brakes on doing a lot of things out of chivalry, is just another example of feminism shooting women in the foot. Accidents happen, especially self inflicted wounds, to people that play with guns when they don’t know what they’re doing.

Still, I have to hand it to feminists in their capacity to spin a wild yarn. Taking a privileged class of people and convincing the world that they were picked on was a masterful piece of skullduggery. But it was only successful because the mandate for men in western culture has always been to give women whatever they want without much question. Otherwise, the plethora of feminist ideas would have buckled under the really oppressive weight of unchecked dishonesty.

Nonetheless, our unhealthy enabling of them set the stage for women to pass up men in every aspect of life. Women are now getting more educated than men and they also have most of the jobs. Nothing suggests this is going to do anything but favor women even more in the future.

All that from an ideology that resides a house of cards that only remains standing because the wind itself has been scared out of blowing it down.

I would offer the feminists my kudos for shrewd work and a job well done, but winning a race is easy when you start with one foot already across the finish line, and everyone else pretends not to notice.

Paul Elam is Editor-in-Chief for Men’s News Daily and the publisher of A Voice for Men.

3,977 views

  • Masculist

    E. Belfort Bax (way back in 1913) from his book “The Fraud of Feminism”:

    “It is rarely that anyone takes the trouble to refute the legend in
    general, or any specific case adduced as an illustration of it.
    When, however, the bluff is exposed, when the real facts of the case
    are laid bare to public notice, and woman is shown, not only as not
    oppressed but as privileged, up to the top of her bent, then the
    apostles of feminism, male and female, being unable to make even a
    plausible case out in reply, with one consent resort to the boycott,
    and by ignoring what they cannot answer, seek to stop the spread of
    the unpleasant truth so dangerous to their cause.”

    Philosopher Kant (circa 1750):

    “Feminine traits are called weakness. People joke about them; fools
    ridicule them; but reasonable persons can see very well that those
    traits are just the tools for the management of men, and for the use
    of men for female designs.”

    Disposability, dangerous labor, and suffering are the hallmarks of oppression. Not pampering, spending, and protection.

    Masculist

  • http://MensNewsDaily MR Truth

    This is a great article that exposes the truth about the status of women in contrast to that of Men. When men ran most of every aspect of society, we had responsibility and authority, now we only have responsibility with no authority. Family law has stripped husbands of any authority within the family. After all, VAWA has made it illegal to argue with your wife. For she might interpret the frown on your face as a life threatening gesture and call the cops, who will then arrest you and put you in jail. All the while she will be making plans for her divorce by getting a restraining order and changing the locks on the doors of YOUR house.

    The courts will then give her ½ of YOUR wealth because she spent all her time while married, turning on machines that do house work for her (The average house wife spends no more than 5 hours a week doing house work). The courts will than proceed to take YOUR children from you and force you to pay child support. If you refuse, you will be thrown in jail. While in jail, child support will continue to accumulate. Debt prisons have long been abolished, except for child support, for which men almost exclusively pay. Also consider that the parent who gets custody can write off the child or children on their taxes as dependants, however, child support is not tax deductible. Just another example of unfair laws directed at men

    Women have never been oppressed, but men are currently being oppressed by the legal system in this society. Not only in family law, but criminal, and I suspect civil law. It is men who are second class citizens’, we are not even afforded our constitutional rights, as in “equal protection under the law”. This is a society that hates men and masculinity.

    When I speak of masculinity, I’m not talking about chivalry (AKA – Women Worship), but rather core male behavior, attitudes and thinking.

    God help us all!

  • Ray

    Approximately 42 percent of the over 58,000 men whose names are on the Vietnam Wall died for their country without ever having the right to vote. Four of the 12 Iwo Jima flag raisers from WWII died for their country without ever having the right to vote. Approximately 500,000 Brits died in WWI for their country without ever having the right to vote. And those are just stats I’ve managed to dig up. Many more men died in wars in the 20th century without the right to vote.

    As suffragettes picketed outside the Wilson White House, tens of thousands of young American men were in Europe, being shot and blown apart for their country without having the right to vote. In the movie “Iron Jawed Angels,” the movie showed the horrors one suffragette went through when she went on a hunger strike and they actually shoved a tube down her throat to force feed her. Her suffering pales in comparison to those men in WWI were going through. History does not cover these facts showing men’s voting oppressions so why do academicians falsely claim that history is the history of men? History is hardly a history of average men and the oppressions they’ve known.

  • The Emperor

    Masculist, you really hit the nail on the head. While acting in a feminine manner does appear to be a weakness, it is really the best way for a woman to control her man.

    In Ukraine, where women are proud of their femininity (and think Feminists are insane)there is a saying that goes “The husband is the head and his wife is the neck. The head looks where the neck turns.”

    Nagging and insulting men is counterproducutive but the feminists do not have the intelligence or common sense to realize this.

    Telling her man “Darling, can you please take out the trash? I am not as strong as you and I if you do it now, there maybe a special reward for you” well certainly be more effective than
    “When do you plan to take out the trash? God, what was I thinking when I married you. My mother was right that all men are lazy idiots and that I was marrying their king.”

    Finally, femininity is about embracing beauty while feminism is about rejecting beauty. It is a clear choice which ideology will attract a man.

  • http://www.standyourground.com POIUYT

    The Myth of Women’s Oppression has empowered more male gender class traitors of their own sex than it ever did any woman or feminist.

    These Male gender class traitors have achieved well paid positions and vast levels of authority over other men following the international socialist dispensation. And they’ve done this under the pretext of amity to women of whom they alone feel better friendship.

    If womens rights and privilages are such good things or so civilised and socially progressive, why not extend it to everyone irrespective of sex? If each citizen has one vote then each citizen must also have womens rights and privileges. Or are others not being female, not good enough for womens rights ? Thats discrimination.

    Couple the above glarring ommission with international socialisms’ hysterical obsession with violence against women and girls and other questions emerge. Against whom or what gender class is violence not such a bad thing as it is against women ? Is there a special criteria being applied against males and boys that makes violence against them not such a bad thing or experience ? If there is such a criteria, then it is discriminatory.

    And evreyone knows where discrimination leads men, women and children. The social, moral and ethical abyss.

    Mind you, at the same time as pondering these questions, it is still the irrefrageable case that males wrought this nonsense on themselves. And it does us no good returning to feminists to plead our case, as it were, for a better deal, having already traded away our rights cheaply or for nothing to them.

    It is for us males to promise ourselves by deed, to stop and not to ever again short-sell ourselves our rights and our sons in futures. The past is the past. It has nothng to do with females and feminists at this stage.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/mensdefense/ Richard Doyle

    VERY well said, Paul.

  • DonnieH

    Oh goodie! Voting rights!

    “First to the men who didn‘t own land, then later to other ethnic groups, then still later to women. Even further down the road the voting age was lowered bringing another large group of people into the fold.”

    Women were voting in New Jersey back in 1790- if they met the property ownership requirements (which also applied to men). One thing that Paul brings up that I think bears emphasizing is that when a modern feminist says “Women couldn’t vote!!!”, the implication is that all men could vote. However, many men couldn’t for a variety or reasons- poll taxes, literacy requirements, property ownership, residency requirements, and age (sufficient to be drafted, but not to vote). Not saying it was right, just sayin’.

    Women had full voting rights in Wyoming in 1869. Ester Morris was appointed to be a judge in 1870.

    At the Seneca Falls Convention of 1848, eleven resolutions were presented and voted upon. Of those, ten passed without substantial dissent. The ninth resolution “Resolved, that it is the duty of the women of this country to secure to themselves their sacred right to the elective franchise”- received more debate than the other ten put together, and was barely passed by the women in attendance. Go figure.

    Lucretia Mott was nominated to be the Liberty Party’s Vice Presidential candidate for Gerrit Smith’s unsuccessful bid for the U.S. Presidency (also in 1848- and I bet some of you thought it was Geraldine Ferraro).

    At the time the 19th amendment was ratified~ 15 states had full voting rights for women, only ~7 had no suffrage for women, and the rest had a mish-mash of voting rights for women (and a mish-mash for men, depending on all sorts of mischief). I’m sure someone has figured out what portion of American women were already voting when the 19th was ratified, but I don’t have that number handy.

    Regarding reduction of the voting age- while a precise number is difficult to verify, it is estimated that approximately one million American men have died in conscriptive military service. Many of these men were conscripted before they could vote, and the practical effect of having the right to vote in the election following your conscription into the military and deployment to the front lines seems weak. Not one American woman has ever died in conscriptive military service. Not one American woman has been imprisoned for not reporting to be drafted, or jailed for failure to present her draft card on demand (ANY law enforcement officer could demand any draft-age man to present his draft card at any time, without cause, and arrest him on the spot if he didn’t.- I know a lot of guys who went to jail for this, and it was commonly used to arrest men (but not women) at anti-war rallies.) Not one American woman has been denied access into a university or denied student financial aid because she hasn’t registered with the Selective Service System, which is still required for all men 18-25.

  • Disgusted

    In regard to discrimination against men because of military draft: if you actually did any research into it, you would realize that it is a military decision because of where men are needed and where women AREN’T needed. There are laws preventing where women can serve and because of those laws, women would not be needed in a military draft. If you were a real man you would know that, but clearly anyone who eats up this garbage is not a real man.

  • Amy R

    Are you serious? You base “oppression” solely off of whether or not someone was PHYSICALLY abused? You have an extremely warped view of oppression.

    But if we want to go by your definition, let’s look at the grossly high rape statistics. Yes yes, men are raped too, but not nearly as often as women are. Why is this? Because of deeply embedded stereotypes that women are weak playthings to be used and abused.

    And let’s pan out a bit and look at women globally. If you are a woman in the Middle East or in Africa, you have a shitload to worry about. Perhaps you were forced to live underground after surviving a rape because your family was so ashamed of you that they kicked you out, or maybe you have no choice but to undergo genital cutting, in which your clitoris is cut or removed or your entire vagina is sewn shut to ensure that you do not experience any type of sexual pleasure until you are forced into marriage. Or maybe you live in the Democratic Republic of Congo, where you constantly have to worry about you or your daughters or your sisters or your friends being raped endlessly and left with unwanted pregnancies, STDs, or a torn vagina. For these women, I’d say feminism is pretty damn important.

    And as far as the “the older rules for men” go… do you honestly believe that all men follow these “rules”? Touch her in the wrong way and you’re a dead man? That’s a nice rosy picture… but let’s get back to reality.

    You have such an incorrect view of what feminism is. Methinks you have never experienced an ounce of oppression in your lifetime, unless you count the big bad feminists stomping all over poor little you.

  • http://google cdub

    LOL,

    Thanks for the daily shaming tactics there disgusted. You do your side more harm then you know…keep on going clown….

  • DonnieH

    “If you were a real man you would know that, but clearly anyone who eats up this garbage is not a real man.”

    Obviously. Yup, there you have it, conscription of men, and only men, is not discrimination against men because . . . I’m not a real man. Thank you, Disgusted, for clarifying this. Yet again- proof by shaming language. Hard to argue with logic like that.

  • Masculist

    Thanks for the “polite” note Disgusted. But with all due respect, accusing someone of not being a “real man” doesn’t really work that well with many members of the men’s movement. In fact, that is kinda the point of the men’s movement to begin with……to break the shackles of a society that tries to shame us men into “taking it like men,” giving, and “enduring pain” so that women can have “crying privileges”, “pampering”, pleasure, and be able to take the fruits of men’s labors.

    Without sounding patronizing, I hope you first read Warren FArrell’s book “the myth of male power” before you form an opinion. That is a life-changing book for many in the mens movement.

    Men and women are equally human….therefore they have an equal right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

    When the tables are turned, we see just how much women really love us men back when the shoe is on the other foot. If a woman is not willing to take a bullet for me, why should I be willing to take a bullet for her? Just read the article below to see just how much women are willing to protect and provide for the men they supposedly love when the shoe is on the other side:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=467390&in_page_id=1879&in_page_id=1879&expand=true#StartComments

    Masculist

  • LanceSmith

    Disgusted: “If you were a real man you would know that, but clearly anyone who eats up this garbage is not a real man.”

    Hahaha….oh that’s rich.

    I would say the exact opposite: any man that isn’t man enough to fight for his rights isn’t a real man.

  • http://avoiceformen.com/ Paul Elam

    @ cdub, DonnieH, LanceSmith and Masculist

    I am glad we could share this round of gender shaming. I have always maintained that there is nothing like someone who hates men telling you how to be one.

  • Mike

    My guess is that the thoroughly chivalrous “Disgusted” is getting laid regularly right now. He’s been able to hold onto his job during these tough times and he’s in a relationship that is going well…….for now. When she tires of the pedestal he puts her on and the end comes, it will affect him more than most because he’ll never see it coming. Maybe we’ll hear from him again, only with a different attitude.

    I know he is definitely NOT a veteran, or, if he was in the military it was long before feminism. Those laws he talks about are side-stepped routinely and women are often in or near combat operations and they and their male peers expect nothing less.

    But just the fact that women are exempted from the draft is a stick in the eye of common sense. It sends exactly the wrong message to our youth, as do so many gender-biased laws, that women are somehow worth more then men, that they don’t have to pull their weight, that the government will always be there even if their daddies aren’t.

  • DonnieH

    My guess is that “Disgusted” doesn’t have a Y chromosome. After all, she never said she was a man, only that I was not a “real” man.

    I’d like to point out that the “laws” Disgusted invokes in no way mitigate their discriminatory nature against men; nor does the military’s desire to use men, and only men, as cannon fodder. Quite the opposite, they both illuminate how society considers the lives of men disposable to secure the freedoms and lifestyles that American women enjoy.

  • julie

    I was about to put this on another site but I have to write about it also and came to a pause for thought. This is going to be a big thread and there are a few men’s groups I could interview.

    Women are still oppressed to the Patriarchy in countries like New Zealand. And they do get tortured. But in saying that, I am aware that there are lots and lots of good men who would never oppress their wives. And I am aware there is a large movement from men to prove that men can be head of the house through men’s networks like churches.

    I think there are numerous other reasons also why we have domestic violence and I would even say men are oppressed as in tortured by the Matriarchy (women being the head of the house).

  • Mr.K

    While “Disqusted”#8 does no reveal Disqusted’s gender the inference is that he/she is a male and points out that laws prevents women from combat roles. But laws can and have been changed to give women access to higly desirable post.. Link

    http://userpages.aug.com/captbarb/combat.html
    Recent policy changes on women in combat:

    1992

    The Defense Authorization Act repealed the long-standing combat exclusion law for women pilots in the Navy and Air Force.

    1993

    President Clinton signed the military bill ending combat exclusion for women on combatant ships.

    1994

    Defense Secretary Aspin approved a new general policy to allow Army women to serve with some ground combat units during fighting.

    The USS EISENHOWER, a Navy combat aircraft carrier, received its first 60 women.

    Navy

    The initial embarkation of women on combat ships during FY94 included eight ships. Two of those eight were aircraft carriers, four were destroyers and two were dock landing ships. The accelerated integration plan called for assigning women to a variety of ships including cruisers, amphibious assault ships and all pre-commissioning Arleigh Burke-class destroyers completed in FY96.

    Female officers are eligible to serve in all of the Navy’s officer communities except submarines (policy currently under review) and special warfare (SEALs). Thus, women can occupy 93.5 percent of the officer billets in the Navy. Enlisted women are eligible to serve in 97 percent of career fields (91 of 94 job classifications). Women are eligible to serve in 95.1 percent of the enlisted billets in the Navy.

    A total of 283 female Naval officers serve as pilots (206) and Naval Flight Officers (77). In addition, there are about 127 women in training to fly combat aircraft. 54 women have already reported to combat aviation squadrons. (pre-1999 figures)

    Women are now aboard combatant ships, thousands of enlisted women and officers are “serving at sea”, and ten Navy women now command ships.

    ——————————————————————————–

    In the Army women cannot serve in the following: infantry, armor, cannon field artillery and short range air defense artillery.**

    **But there’s a twist here that literally allowed women to fly under fire in Panama in 1989. Although federal law mandated that the Navy and Air Force prohibit women from serving in direct combat roles, no such law bound the Army to do so. Instead, the Army used its combat exclusion policy to regulate itself to conform to the intent of the federal laws that affected the other services.

    A federal court had ruled male-only daft registration unconstitutional, but the US Supreme Court reversed it. As the justices are reported to say “We are not final because we are right. We are right because we are final (There in no futher appeal, except a constitutional Amendment. Link to Rostker v. Goldberg.
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0453_0057_ZS.html

  • Dave

    Disgusted Says:
    “If you were a real man you would know that, but clearly anyone who eats up this garbage is not a real man.”

    What a childish statement! If you were a real adult you would know that.

    “if you were a real man”, “man up”… just a few of the phrases commonly employed by women in an effort to manipulate a man to do something for them that they don’t want to do themselves. Frequently, the task that they want to perform is hazardous to the man’s health and/or financial well being. Fortunately, most men have learned this and recognize these techniques for the pathetic attempts at manipulation that they are.

    Disgusted’s childish comments simply prove Paul’s point.

  • Anonymous

    Of course women are oppressed. Just look at the the treatment of women in Africa or in the middle east. Or the statistics of female rape. Or the fact that on average women are paid $0.77 to a man’s $1.00. Anyone with half a brain would realize that women still aren’t treated fairly in today’s society. Oppression isn’t just physical.

  • http://brandonwalsh.wordpress.com/2009/12/01/removing-the-shackles/ Removing the Shackles « Rational Riposte

    [...] an article published on Men’s News Daily a couple days ago called The Myth of Women’s Oppression. The basic information isn’t new and it’s what you’d expect of a men’s [...]

  • Janey

    “Of course women are oppressed. Just look at the the treatment of women in Africa or in the middle east. Or the statistics of female rape. Or the fact that on average women are paid $0.77 to a man’s $1.00″

    1)We’ve been pouring billions of dollars into Africa for years now. Progress is being made. What are feminists doing to help?
    2)Which statistics? The debunked “one in four are raped” one?
    3)That ‘women are paid less’ stat has been debunked so many times that it’s not even worth bringing up again.

  • The Emperor

    Women are not oppressed. And feminists are retarded. Here is a video made by an intelligent, rational woman from Romania about feminism.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSdZlPKHpUQ

  • Masculist

    Hello Anonymous (comment number 20):

    With all due respect, rape is not just a woman’s issue. Too many women and feminists show precious little compassion for prison rape (or false accusations of rape). The “pay gap” has been proven to be a myth (mostly due to men being expected to be the “strong ones” to do the life-threatening and dangerous grunt work). However, the female-dominated “spending gap” has been shown to be very real (see bernice kanner’s “pocketbook power”).

    Regarding the pay gap, the following sources have found it to be a feminist myth:

    The Department of Labor recently funded this study, and provided a forward, which found the pay gap is a result of choices such as longer hours, flexibility, etc., not discrimination. “An Analysis of the Reason for the Disparity in Wages Between Men and Women,”
    http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf

    Even CNN has debunked the “pay gap” myth.

    http://money.cnn.com/2007/06/04/magazines/fortune/muphy_payact.fortune/index.htm

    Professor June O’Neill, Ph.D., former director of Congressional Budget Office, found the same thing in “The Gender Gap in Wages, circa 2000,” American Economic Review, 5/03.

    This was further supported in the book “Why Men Earn More” by Warren Farrell, Ph.D., which examined 25 career/life choices men and women make (hours, commute times, etc.) that lead to men earning more and women having more balanced lives, and that showed how men in surveys prioritize money while women prioritize flexibility, shorter hours, shorter commutes, less physical risk and other factors conducive to their choice to be primary parents, an option men still largely don’t have. That is why never-married childless women outearn their male counterparts, and female corporate directors now outearn their male counterparts.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN0752118220071107?feedType=R

    Farrell also lists dozens of careers, including fields of science, where women outearn men.

    Women simply have more options than men to be primary parents, and many of them exercise that option rather than work long, stressful hours. That is why 57% of female graduates of Stanford and Harvard left the workforce within 15 years of entry into the workforce. http://edition.cnn.com/2005/BUSINESS/03/15/optout.revolution/

    This is an option few men have (try being a single male and telling women on the first date that you want to stay home).

    Blaming men for women’s choices is unfair. In fact research shows most men have no problem with their wives outearning them. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23413243

    Research also shows most working dads would quit or take a pay cut to spend more time with kids if their spouses could support the family.

    http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/Careers/06/13/dads.work/index.html

    Research also shows that parents share workloads more when mothers allow men to be primary parents.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-05-04-equal-parenting_N.htm

    For more, see:

    ABC News: “Is the Wage Gap Women’s Choice? Research Suggests Career Decisions, Not Sex Bias, Are at Root of Pay Disparity”
    http://abcnews.go.com/2020/GiveMeABreak/story?id=797045&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23413243

    Best,

    Darrin (masculist)

  • julie

    ***Of course women are oppressed. Just look at the the treatment of women in Africa or in the middle east. Or the statistics of female rape.***

    You mean some women. I would never say the female suicide bombers are oppressed. They are oppressing other people. And the female rapists in Africa are definitely the oppressors.

    ***Or the fact that on average women are paid $0.77 to a man’s $1.00. Anyone with half a brain would realize that women still aren’t treated fairly in today’s society. Oppression isn’t just physical.***

    What you would be better off saying is that women work more part time jobs than men. I think it is a privilege rather than an oppression. I will feel oppressed when feminists force all women to work full time.

  • julie

    To Masculist, you’ve given great information in your comment. You are enjoyable to follow.

    To Janey, nice points. It is a pleasure to come across you.

  • Sophia

    Dear Masculist,
    I agree with most of what you say on this website and really appreciate you bringing up this topic. However, as a young female I would like to interject one point. I think that many times it is not women who put this pressure on men but other men. Case in point, the other day I went to the liquor store with my boyfriend where he bought a case of beer. Since he paid for the beer I thought it would only be fair for me to carry it to the car. However, when I picked it up he grabbed it back from me angrily and said, “stop it you are embarrassing me, you make me look like less of a man”. The rest of the day he was mad at me for trying to ‘emasculate’ him as he called it. Here I thought I was only trying to pull me weight and be fair. So my point is that many times it is men who need to stop holding back other men.

  • Jay R

    Great piece, Paul.

    Feminism is PROOF of women’s privileged place in society — call it chivalry enforced at gun-point.

  • Veldang

    @ Sophia

    I know so many guys who do this. I admit at times to being one of them

    However, my reasoning is very different. For many Men carrying to heavier load isn’t even a pride of emasculation thing but rather that we are stronger and it is not even a hassle in any way for us to do it.

    I know this isn’t the case with you by the outspoken manner of your BF.

    This is very much one of many attitudes we need to fight.
    Honestly, I’ve heard “suck it up and be a man” more time from my Male friends than from my Female ones.

  • Masculist

    Hello Sophia (comment number 27), and thanks for the polite reply. I hope I didn’t give off the wrong impression, but I most definitely agree that men are at least 50% of the opposition to the mens movement. And I agree that men provide at least 50% of the pressure on boys to “take it like a man” and “suck it up”. If I didn’t acknowledge this fact in my essays enough, I will acknowledge it now. I suppose one could go out on a limb and say that this phenomenon could aptly be called “intra-gender” sexism.

    Personally, I have more in common with Fred Rogers than Brad Pitt, and I am okay with that. I erased the stupid term “emasculated” from my vernacular. After all, the word “effemillated” doesn’t even exist, so why should “emasculated” exist either? I am a liberated man. And I cry at movies.

    Good point sophia,

    Darrin
    MS Psychology
    NCFM

  • Joe P.

    “Oppression” is a relative term, I suppose.

    The women hollaring the loudest should spend a month in a burqa in the arab country of their choice.

    Then, after kissing the airport tarmac upon their return, they can apologize to the first 100 non-muslim men they see. Then some community service at a men’s homeless shelter. Of course, its not the nice motel-like accomodations they’ll find at a women’s shelter but, like their month in the middle east, they need to see how the other half lives.

    And this is minimum penance.

    Then……we can talk about women’s rights in America.

  • Brain

    I suggest you all take a women’s studies class

  • syndromia

    From the beginning of this country women were treated as property. Legally, when a woman married she lost all rights to her property and if she worked at any of the few jobs permitted women her husband or father had custody of her paycheck. Women could only divorce in instances of severe spousal abuse and she lost any and all rights to her children. Until 1976 spousal rape was legal in all states.

    But I can hear the aguments now, “But that was then, this is now! Aren’t things better now?” Yes, much. But 40% of domestic violence against women begins during her first pregnancy. Women have worse health coverage as compared to men. For example, my insurance plan covers my father’s viagra but won’t cover any method of birth control for me save permenant sterilization. Women also are at a disadvantage when it comes to parenting and working. An Ohio woman lost her job at Totes Isotoner because she took a breastfeeding break. She sued and it went to the Ohio Supreme Court. The court ruled in favor of Totes Isotoner.

    Women of color, black, hispanic, Native American, are at a higher risk for domestic violence.

    Homosexuals are not treated fairly and in many states can lose their jobs as homosexuality isn’t considered a protected class. Bisexual students are 3-6 % more likely than their straight classmates to be threatened or injured with a weapon at school. This too is a feminist issue.

    Transsexuals are at an increased risk for discrimination and violence. In the U.S., onetranssexual is killed every six months for being transsexual. 33.2% of transsexual youth admit to attempting suicide. I’m not sure who is ok with a young person feeling the only way out is death, but certainly the feminists I know are not.

    These are real issues that feminists have dealt with or are dealing with. So the only myth I see in this article and the comments are that there is not oppression.

  • http://avoiceformen.com/ Paul Elam

    @ Brain, syndromia

    As of TODAY:

    98% of all combat deaths are men.

    93% of all workplace deaths are men.

    85% of all suicides are men.

    80% of all homeless people are men

    Men die seven years younger than women, but unlike for women, there is no National Office for Men’s Health.

    The lions share of all gender specific medical research is done for the benefit of women.

    There is blatant bias against men in custody disputes during divorce. And family courts routinely strip men of their homes, assets and children on completely unsubstantiated claims used to garner restraining orders by judges that issue them like trading stamps.

    False allegations against men of rape, spousal abuse and child abuse have become epidemic.

    Men are physically abused as much as women in domestic disputes and there is little to no services available for them. In fact, many men who call police for help because they are being abused get arrested regardless of their clear innocence.

    Men are the only sex required by law to register for selective service under threat of imprisonment, while women are exempt.

    Men have lost 80% of the jobs in the current recession.

    Men now only represent 42% of college students and those numbers are dropping constantly.

    You could learn a lot more about all of this if you took a course in a Men’s Studies Program at any American university, except that there are no such programs in any American university.

    If you think anyone should take your claims of oppression seriously, perhaps you should think again.

  • julie

    Paul Elam,

    Unbelievable comment. #34. Now that’s oppression.

  • irked

    You people talking about women and how they “do nowhere near as much work as men and all they do is housework” is DISCRIMINATION. Especially the comment about how men when taken to court lose THEIR house, THEIR children, THEIR money. What about BOTH of their house, children, and money? Women work too and do a minimum of half the parenting. It’s not like all women sit there saying “gimme more, more, more” while sitting on the couch all day. Women work too, often for long hours. Also, did you know that men get higher tips on average than women do? It’s because people assume that men are harder-working. This is a STEREOTYPE people.

    I agree that men put more pressure on each other than women do to be all “manly and tough” because I have NEVER demanded a man to go to war for me, pay for me, and have only asked for jobs to be done that I cannot do or are more convenient for them. I don’t get things handed to me all the time.

    Just because women weren’t physically abused as often as the slaves doesn’t make it oppression. It’s oppressive enough that people expect women to have kids and do most of the work with that, maintain a house, and have a job while looking amazing doing it. There’s a reason women have such a high rate of depression, they have high standards to live up to.

    Saying that talking about domestic violence and rape toward women is discrimination is absolute BULLSHIT. No one said that they don’t care about rapes or violence committed against men. However, rape of women is much more common and therefore should be addressed and dealt with. No one ever said ignore men’s rapes or abuse.

    Also saying that women demand men to do everything is RIDICULOUS. My boyfriend and I decide who pays depending on who’s got more money at the time. It’s about half and half. Both of us go through periods when we’re short of cash and the other accommodates accordingly. I don’t sit there and have impossible standards or expect to have things handed to me just because I’m a female.

    Overall the ignorance of the woman-haters in here makes me physically ill. You say end discrimination against men, but you turn on women at the flip of a hat. You can’t have it that way. If you want to fight oppression, why don’t you go for equality? But don’t attack women to justify your feelings of rage. Deal with the problem itself instead of making stereotypes about an entire gender. You don’t want us to do it to you so be fair.

  • ralph m

    Wow! You never know what you’ll stumble across surfing around the internet! This has got to be the stupidest article I’ve read on the net in awhile.

    Let’s see….women were never oppressed because there were no torture and death camps. I suppose your not including women who have been hospitalized because of physical abuse and those who died from injuries. When I was young, what went on in the home, stayed in the home, and that even included blood relations: my father wouldn’t even help my aunt, his own sister, because he said it wasn”t his place to interfere in her marriage. And that was typical thinking 40 or more years ago.

    Are you going to try to claim that men suffer comparable domestic abuse? If so, what are these men made of? Are they a bunch of wimps married to amazons or something? Giving the physical disparity between men and women, it strains the credibility gap past the breaking point!

    You cite the customs of chivalry as evidence against oppression? Opening doors, and offering a seat to a lady etc. — one question, how many times did you see a married man opening doors or holding a chair for his wife? Chivalry ended pretty soon into the marriage in most cases!

    Nowhere does the article touch on the point made previously that historically, married women became the property of their husbands. And the age-old JudeoChristian tradition of married women as chattel took a long time to disappear. When I was in high school, there was no such thing as spousal rape — even between a couple that were legally separated and awaiting divorce.

    So things are changing now, and the increasing numbers of young women in colleges and universities, who will then move into good jobs should not be something to fear, except for men who fear that they can’t control their women if they have real earning power.

    Our evolutionary heritage has been almost universally patriarchal, but we have to adapt to a new way of doing things, because the modern world doesn’t draw the sharp distinctions between “man’s work” and “woman’s work” that existed in the past.

    Rather than bitching about how things have changed, men coming of age today will be happier and have more peace of mind if they can accept the fact that our modern, technological world is pushing towards a gender-equal and gender-neutral world. Fighting the trend (like a lot of Muslim countries are doing) is just tilting at windmills, and making life miserable for both men and women.

  • Mike

    Ralph, YOUR response is stupid! Yes, Men do suffer comparable physical abuse…Women can throw objects at men…Some Women are Very Well-BUilt…..You idiot! You are the one who stretches credibility past the breaking point! Colleges and “our technological world” were created by Men! Anyway Women are the majority of child abusers, and I hate Child abuse! You stereotype only men as controlling! Women control most relationships that I’ve seen…

  • CW

    Actually, men are more likely to leave women after they return from the military than the other way around, even when you take into account the disproportionate amount of men VS women in the military.

    Then again, no partner can anticipate the real cost war or injuries will have and it isn’t really their job to care for the damage caused by powerful MEN.

    The gender element existed with women when it came to voting. In response to women wanting the right to vote, men (and women) of the time reacted in a way MRAs do now: “what, you don’t think men will vote in the best interests of his family? You must HATE men!” History sure gives us perspective, huh?

    With men, voting was about class. This classism was enforced and perpetuated, you guessed it, by powerful men. MRAs like to ignore the intra-sexism there, which accounts for most of the gendered oppression (white, straight) men face, because that suggests they’d have to sacrifice the power to which being male allows them access in order to do away with this intra-male equality. Plus they’d have to acknowledge it isn’t the feminists doing this – rather the men and Conservatives.

    The same with military – women are prevented BY LAW from combat because powerful men (and perhaps conservative, non-feminist women) decided. That is a case of men oppressing other men *and* women in different ways. Especially in this current war where more women are finding themselves in combat against their will, but are ill-trained to defend themselves and anybody else (one woman took out a squad with an automatic weapon). So basically the military tells women we’re not allowed to fight for our country because of our periods/inferior upper body strength/whatever, but we are allowed to die.

    So of aaaall the feminist literature on how women have historically been treated, you choose the slave example? How convenient.

    Anyway, pssst! Slaves were women too! What you’re referring to are white women. Or more specifically, upper-middle class white women. If you think a servant girl, a prostitute, or an “old maid” got the chivalry treatment then you’re even more of a joke. Not sure which particular “lifeboats” to which you’re referring, though usually it’s the Titanic. But considering the disproportion of men and women plus the proportion of women tending the children VS men, it isn’t surprising more women survived. How being rewarded for knowing your place amounts to privilege I’ll never know.

    Also, more Americans survived than British – men or women – apparently because as American men were elbowing their way through, Brits were urging each other to “be British!”
    “With all due respect, rape is not just a woman’s issue.”

    But, mostly, it is. So is the culture surrounding it.

    “Too many women and feminists show precious little compassion for prison rape (or false accusations of rape).”

    Bull***t. Women and feminists show plenty of compassion and are probably doing more than any MRA in working to combat each. How many of you stop throwing stones at feminism for a second to advocate for prison reform or better conditions? Police brutality? What “women and feminists” do is get irritated by MRAs speaking about rape as if it’s an abstract concept and try to dictate how we should feel about it either because “men get raped in prison!” too (by other men, by the way) or because the mere mention it exists may hurt some guy’s feelings? Then go derail every issue about rape with ever-changing, debunked statistics on false-accusations.

    “The “pay gap” has been proven to be a myth (mostly due to men being expected to be the “strong ones” to do the life-threatening and dangerous grunt work).”

    It was not “proven” to be a myth. There have merely been theories, explanations, and possibilities put forth to account for some of it that don’t amount to a boss simply paying a woman less than a man for the very same work at every turn. In fact many of the explanations just reiterate institutional sexism (always assuming she’ll get pregnant, rating the same work higher, the burden of child-care falling on the woman while the male partner just takes for granted that she’ll leave her job and care for the kid, “women’s work” being undervalued and underpaid). Also, the most dangerous work isn’t even the highest paid so that is BS. It should be, as should care-taking and other people-centric work women do, but it isn’t.

    “Research also shows most working dads would quit or take a pay cut to spend more time with kids if their spouses could support the family.”

    That is only theoretical, you should know better than that.

    “However, the female-dominated “spending gap” has been shown to be very real (see bernice kanner’s “pocketbook power”).”

    Research into compulsive buying shows that men and women are equally likely to be compulsive buyers but that men under-report what they buy/spend and women over-report what they buy/spend. The most recent I remember explaining this was a medicalnewstoday story. Also, who is more likely to give money to charity? Who is more likely to buy for the needs of other people, the house-hold, family? Even if women spend the money, who is it benefiting? There is a reason for the terms “lies, damn lies, and statistics”. MRAs don’t get it, perhaps deliberately.

    Also, Dr. Warren “genitally caress children” Farrell’s book is life-changing because he, like anybody, can come up with a bunch of explanations unsupported and even contradicted by data to ease his frustration at not being able to bed young women. If it were up to this guy, women wouldn’t exist because their mere presence turns men on and is thus “unfair”.

    “As of TODAY:

    98% of all combat deaths are men.
    93% of all workplace deaths are men.
    85% of all suicides are men.
    80% of all homeless people are men”

    Women are barred from combat (theoretically) by men.

    The men who own the places should enforce better measures to prevent that and women shouldn’t have to jump through hoops to get that kind of job.

    Successful suicides are by men mostly, yes. MRAs should talk more about gun-control and not tying a man’s worth to his job, money, etc because that IS tragic, but not the fault of feminists and certainly isn’t gender-oppression. Let me ask this? How many times has a man taken a woman or his family with him when he killed himself? Just in the past couple weeks, two men killed themselves and their wives/kids in my state (Michigan) that I KNOW of. One was in Mildford Township, can’t remember the other (but they had some small business).

    “Men are physically abused as much as women in domestic disputes and there is little to no services available for them.”

    They are not “as much”, even when taking into account homosexual relationships. And please don’t throw around self-reported examples from Straus about a woman smacking a guy and his strangling her as “equal”. Even Gelles was embarrassed by you MRAs deliberately misrepresenting what those statistics say.

    Also, plenty of shelters exist for men, they happen to be homosexual. Why? Because homosexual men took the initiatives and it is more of a problem there than hetero couples. You guys sit on your ass and blame feminists. Even women-only shelters do more for abused men than you guys.

    “Men have lost 80% of the jobs in the current recession.”

    ..Because they have the better, more powerful ones in the first place!

    Next thing you know, you’ll be saying that men were oppressed in Bliblical times because the son was prioritized first during the harvest and if it was bad, they’d die.

    “There is blatant bias against men in custody disputes during divorce.”

    No, there isn’t. There is “bias” against the parent that hasn’t been the primary care-giver. As a child of divorce, I can say it’s a DAMN good law. Don’t screw it up for kids because of some symbolic gesture for MRAs.

    “False allegations against men of rape, spousal abuse and child abuse have become epidemic.”

    “Epedemic”? Based on what?

    “You could learn a lot more about all of this if you took a course in a Men’s Studies Program at any American university, except that there are no such programs in any American university.”

    Yes, there are. It’s called HISTORY.
    But nobody is stopping you from opening a redundant class basically saying the same thing they’ve learned since elementary school and slapping “men’s studies” on it. Go for it.

    “The rest of the day he was mad at me for trying to ‘emasculate’ him as he called it. Here I thought I was only trying to pull me weight and be fair. So my point is that many times it is men who need to stop holding back other men.”

    Thank you, Sophia. But I’m sure this will go in one ear and out the other. I encounter this with men all the time, especially when it comes to spending money. Even though I’m a waitress at a bar and get crap money and the (latest) guy got a nice, high-paying job from an ex’s dad, I still wanted to pay for certain things but then get guilt-tripped over it. That is something men need to deal with but that they blame on feminism.

  • DonnieH

    Dear CW,

    That was one of the most hilarious things I’ve read in a long time. Thanks! I think you should dump that opressive boyfriend of yours and hook up with ralph m. He sounds purrfect for you. :-)

    If you decide to keep your current boyfriend and would like to start paying your own way more, just send him this way. I am almost certain we can help you make progress on this. You shouldn’t feel guilty for acting like an adult, and perhaps you should do whatever the female equivalent of “growing a pair” is and just insist on paying. On the other hand, it DOES keep more change in YOUR pocket to let him pay. How convenient is THAT?!

  • Mike

    Ralph M, you are so wrong, on all your points….Men do suffer equal abuse! Men are the reason we have technological advances..Thanks for showing us what traitors some of you guys are.

  • jon

    The oppression arguments are getting old. Both men and women have traditionally had different expectations put on them because of sex. Any discussion of how women were oppressed should coincide with a discussion of how men were oppressed. Expectations put on people vary everywhere for various reasons. If I work at McDonalds and I claim I’m oppresed because I’m the only one flipping burgers is that reasonable? Some employees are taking orders, some are making fries, some are cleaning up. Any discussion of my oppression would have to include a discussion of theirs. Maybe I have a complaint but only if my burden is relatively worse than theirs when compensation is taken into account. This would be a complex case to prove, even in a pretty simple situation like McDonalds. The endless complaints by feminists and others of women’s oppression that never mention how men are oppressed are absolutely ridiculous.

    As the article points out, there are many other groups made up of men, women, or both that are also relevant to this discussion. It’s a complex topic.

    Discussions of domestic violence should be limited to recent times because the world has changed a ton since the government got very involved in family life. I’m not an expert on the subject but I seriously doubt there is much data about it from before 1970. The complaints men have nowadays are usually that the woman is allowed to do anything and get away with it but if he smacks her, threatens to smack her, raises his voice and scares her, or if she just claims he did something the cops will come and arrest him. This is a human rights violation. What other guys did or didn’t do in different relationships in past generations is not relevant to someone who gets arrested tomorrow.

  • CW

    “You shouldn’t feel guilty for acting like an adult, and perhaps you should do whatever the female equivalent of “growing a pair” is and just insist on paying. On the other hand, it DOES keep more change in YOUR pocket to let him pay.”

    He isn’t my boyfriend or somebody I’m seeing, but somebody who is interested in me. We’ve hung out and HE picked what we did and insisted and has nice job he got through connections; I’m laid-off/on call and have essnsially no spending money “in my pocket” because what I saved I spent on everybody for Christmas. I was going to use my card for which I tend to save for my phone bill and medical bills I owe. With my last boyfriend, I paid for dinner most of the time, I drove him around, I always drove to his house, I drove his friends, and I paid his phone bill. He had a job where he took home an $11,000 check, and lost it for his attitude, I had one where I’d take home $30 in cash. Nice try though.

  • DonnieH

    I’m sorry you are laid off. This is a tough time to be laid-off/on call and out of spending money. I hope you get a good job soon (seriously). If you’re just starting with a new guy that’s interested in you I hope you can work it out so that neither of you feels uncomfortable about paying, etc. A lot of women have a sense of entitlement and presume that the man should pay, often with the excuse that since he asked her out, he should pay, and then expect him to always ask her out, hence always pay. I hope your previous boyfriend wasn’t taking advantage of you, and that things work out well with this new fellow. It sounds like you have a good heart (a bit misinformed, though). When I started reading your previous post, I thought “My Gawd! If someone asked me to write a parody of a rambling feminist rant, I couldn’t do better. Well played!” I guess you were serious?

    Here’s one from my vault: A girlfriend I’d been dating nearly a year had a college degree from one of the most exclu$ive private universities on the West Coast and was steadily employed in her field. She said she “wanted to take me out to dinner” for my birthday. She picked the restaurant, she ordered the wine, appetizer, dessert, etc. When the bill came, it was nearly $200 with tax and tip. She handed me a $20 (her entree was just under $20) and said that I could “keep the change”. Needless to say, that was enough for me.

    If I ever date again, the first several dates will probably be zero or near zero cost. Walks around the lake, volunteering for charity together, bike club rides, that sort of thing, until we’re both comfortable with each other.

  • steven deluca

    To CW

    You are bright, articulate and biased. I am always impressed with how very smart people can get an idea and then reject anything – maybe not even reject but not even notice – PROOF that makes their argument s invalid. I know where much of your info comes from. I have stacks of books by feminist. A feminist quoting a feminist quoting a man hating lesbian in Newark NJ is proof in women’s studies.

    I would bet that if I hooked you up to a lie detector and asked how you feel about men as a group it would be similar to a KKK guy asked how they feel about blacks.

    I was born with a twin sister in 1946 and when I hear our peers – or feminist women discuss the way it was in the 60′s for women you would swear they were suffering great harm and discrimination at every turn. You wouldn’t think that young men too young to vote were being sent to war and dying. You wouldn’t think that males had to get their wife’s permission to get a vasectomy, or that guys were working to get the money, car, gas, corasages for a date and then standing at attention when adult women entered a room. You would think it was considered romantic for an older, better educated man with higher earnings to get down on one knee to ask for marriage or for men to kiss a woman’s hand as if she were the pope or an emperor. Imagine Kim Gandy seeing women get on their knees asking men to marry, that “romantic” act would be seen as what it really is.

    In elementary school, first day, my sister and I could not believe boys didn’t have doors on bathrooms. Later we were shocked that a boy snapping a bra strap could be beat with a wood paddle while a girl, for fun, found to be kicking or hitting a boy in the balls might get a time-out or missed recess as punishment from smirking adults. Sexual assault of boys by girls or women doesn’t count and ya’ll pretend it doesn’t happen or doesn’t matter. My grand ma came into my room when I was preschool, rubber her CUNT [I believe that's what ya'll call it at the Vagina Monologues] on my face in a dark room… years of nightmares. Feminist pretend such things don’t happen. BS Irving Stone wrote about it. Antoine Fisher the movie starring Denzel Washington talked about it. My plumber and the father of a boy whose mom worked for a safe house had similar experiences… In the book “Guilty by Reason of Insanity” Dorthy Lewis MD writes about a six year-old boy forced to perform cunnulingus (sp) on his mom by his mom… what we all have in common is that not one of us is in a study, or police report related to these incidents. Sexual abuse of males isn’t looked for or it’s joked about. I worked with teen girls in Hawaii, Teen boys and girls in CO, with prisoners, drunks and junkies, and found far more abuse of children including sexual than I ever heard about from feminist women or cops.

    Here is the truth. You are – dare I say “raggin” on MRA’s. I have rarely meet an MRA that wasn’t aware of women’s issues or didn’t care about both genders. I have rarely meet a feminist who cared about boys or men. One of my best friends is a women who teaches women’s history, college level, and she knows that many feminist have been fed lies and myths. You have some truths, some half truths and so much prejudice that you can’t see the difference. Worse, your prejudice is so strong that when I read what you write I know that you are just another man hater. Ya, you like a few, but for women like you most men are pigs.

    If you are taught to only see your own gender’s issues and that’s all you look for you will find only that. In a culture where women outlived men by a year in 1920 and now it’s 7 “TODAY” (it’s in the press tomorrow) we find our government funding more women’s health programs… welll, I know I am wasting my time pointing out such things. Men are dying from preventible problems related to work, stress, and bad choices… too bad… women outlive them by 7 years, let’s make it ten and complain that old ladies need more money.

    If you are going after Warren Farrell trying to get others to believe he supports molesting children then you don’t know shit. Ya, I read the stories too.. I know WF and he isn’t supporting child molesters but he does influence others so feminists need to trash him in the worst way.

    Feminist believe that we don’t care about the lives of women. You mentioned the Titanic. It wasn’t just the Titanic where we said women … OLD women could get on the life boats while young fathers were left behind… a plane went down on the Hudson recently and we asked for women and children first. No 80 year-old man would get on a life boat and watch a young mother go to her death but women did that, your gender did that… If I saw an old man leaving a young man or woman on a ship I would toss their selfish worthless ass overboard, but we don’t see that if it’s women.

    It’s true that over 90 percent of the deaths in the work place are male deaths and it’s BEEN PROVEN that pay discrimination is more myth that real. More to do with women’s choices. I talk to a high school class twenty years ago about gender issues because I was the primary caretake of babies. My wife was getting her masters sum cum laude (sp) We discussed gender issue which they didnt know also include my gender. The students had been indoctrinated with feminist propaganda.

    The boys were all willing to support a wife, if they had the money, if she wanted to work or not. Not one girl there was willing to support a male for any reason. That truth affects men and women’s income and you know it.

    And for the record, my twin sister and fiance graduated from high school with me in 64. They didn’t have to face jail for not going into the army. They didn’t have the draft. While I was AWOL in Bellingham WA college girls were turning in boys who were AWOL in Bellingham – thoe young women wanted males to do their duty.

    I ended up with a 100 percent disability from the army, my twin sister and my girl friend – then wife…didn’t. And because your mom didn’t didn’t get to take shop class or your great grandma didn’t get to vote doesn’t compare to men dying in the work place, or being called pigs by feminists, or dying in war, or losing limbs, going blind in war, … or losing children in biased custody battles. Tell me one thing that has happened to you as a woman that compares to a man losing his life in his role as a man in work or war. Rape, it doesn’t just happen in prison by men. Were you “blaming the victim” because a man raped the man. Some of the men are in prison from false rape claims that you think are rare. Most of the men getting out of prison from the innocence project were their accuse of rape. (I believe, not 100% sure but I think that’s true)

    Women in American, many of them, are spoiled girls spewing self serving nonsense … your gender has longer, happier, healthier and safer lives and yet many run around pretending they live in a war zone.

    Sgt., D. US Army retired.

  • ReiJ

    @ CW, post #39

    Whew! That was long, and very informative post but there are a few issues that needed addressing. I’ll address them by their respective paragraphs.
    Paragraphs 1-2: Veterans leave wives
    The issue about husbands leaving wives more does not seem to convince people since there was no “proof” in the argument. People might use this little article against you:
    http://www.glennsacks.com/protect_deployed_parents.htm
    I quote these text blocks from the article:
    “Divorced or separated military parents often lose custody of their children–and sometimes permanently forfeit any meaningful role in their lives–simply because they have served their country. Many married parents deploy overseas, never suspecting that their parenthood essentially ended the day they left home.
    The divorce rate in the Armed Forces has skyrocketed during the long deployments necessitated by the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. The scenario is a common one–a marriage crumbles during a long separation, and the stateside military spouse moves to another state and files for divorce, knowing that he or she is virtually certain to gain custody through the divorce proceedings in the new state. Given service personnel’s limited ability to travel, the high cost of legal representation and travel, and the financial hardships created by child support and spousal support obligations, it is extremely difficult for the deployed parent to fight for his or her parental rights in the new state.“
    Not to mention that while the husband serves in the military, the wife has ample time to find and pursue an affair. Women are humans too, just like men, and they are also as subject to temptation. http://www.womensinfidelity.com/

    Paragraphs 3-4: Voting
    Of course the fact that it is mostly men who oppress men is clear, but still, does it excuse the oppression? It is quite like saying “Oh, in Lesbian DV incidents it is OK because a woman does it to another woman! It is the same for gay DV disputes since they are the same gender!”
    Let us not forget that it was a VERY SMALL MINORITY of men who made all the rules that were oppressive to BOTH male and female members of the masses. The PRESIDENT of our country is FEMALE and very corrupt, so does that mean that “gender-ists” should only address the problem of males because a “WOMAN did crimes against other Women” and thus they do not need help and “deserve” it?
    Paragraph 5: Military:
    You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT on that one. Men preventing women to fight is oppression. Women should also get to experience the wonders and beauty of fighting in WAR: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y1YL9C8Hfw
    Although women are generally weaker than men, men are also weaker than most other men. Proper training can surely solve the inequalities. One powerful inequality preventing women from showing valor in combat is the Male only Draft which requires that only men serve in war. Women should ALSO FIGHT (and get killed like men) IN WARS to defend their country! Everyone has a responsibility for it!
    Paragraph 6-7: Slavery:
    Male and Female slaves faced severe oppression, albeit differently. Male slaves were forced to work until they die, or they get killed. Female slaves were often kept for menial housework, but worst of all for sex/rape. This should be an interesting choice, what would you like: menial labor and rape every time your owner wants, or hauling boulders up mountains under the sweltering heat all the while somebody whips the skin off your back all because you’re slowing down from exhaustion Until you Slowly DIE FROM IT.
    Now, about the Titanic… Can’t MEN take care of children too? Or is it a BIAS that makes you assume that MEN CAN’T TAKE CARE OF CHILDREN. What if there was a crew full of adults from multiple nationalities and as the ship sinks they say “BLACKS and ASIANS FIRST for the lifeboats.” Know how to fix the Titanic disparity? Have half of the families stay and drown, and the other half live, or even better only half of all the adults, male and female, can stay with the children. What does it say about oppression if you are supposed to drown BECAUSE you have the wrong pair of genitalia?
    Paragraph 8-10: Rape:
    How many laws against rape are there? Rape shield laws and the like that protect women? Do these also extend to MEN who are raped (not just in prison)?
    Point to me a group of feminists who are against rape, now point to me another group that is SOLIDLY AGAINST PRISON RAPE. It is highly likely that they’ll excuse it by saying “men do it to other men.” AND THAT MEANS RAPE AGAINST MALES ARE OKAY!! Would they treat Lesbian rape the same way?
    Also, how many times have rapes against women been played as humorous? In the meantime, have you ever heard the phrase “Don’t Drop The Soap”? Prison rape is funny huh? RAPE is FUNNY, but only against men.
    Also, about false rape accusations, please do criticize after you have read at least five articles (just try to read ALL the articles) on this website: http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/
    And by the way, remember Duke Lacrosse Team and the Hofstra rape(-that-never-happened) cases? Yeah…
    Paragraph 11-14: Pay Gap:
    Please do read the CONSAD report: http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf
    Read ALL of it. One to two pages do NOT count. As you can see, those are NOT merely “theories, explanations, and possibilities put forth to account for some of it that don’t amount to a boss simply paying a woman less than a man for the very same work at every turn.”
    Oh, and you said “Also, the most dangerous work isn’t even the highest paid so that is BS. It should be, as should care-taking and other people-centric work women do, but it isn’t.” Now what does that tell you about the VALUE OF THE LIVES of the people who work in DEATH JOBS? Right, not even 25-cents per dollar.
    Here is another doozy: http://bikerbernie.wordpress.com/2008/05/15/the-075-reality-tour/
    For the $0.75 womans pay average (for the same job), it means that some women earn more than that and some earn LESS for the Average to be true, right? Now, how many women do you think earn the same as men (in the same job and departments)? Let me give you Bernie’s quotes and table from the link above:
    “Assuming that 90% of the workingwomen earn 100% [of what men earn] then the other 10% would have to PAY their employers 150 cents on a dollar. Let me explain that. Women would have to not just earn nothing but actually have to pay their employer for every dollar earned by others one hundred and fifty cents. This is leading the seventy-five cents on a dollar to be less credible. If you think that this has opened your eyes, wait until you see how ridiculous the other numbers become.
    If only 80% of workingwomen make 100% of what a man makes then the other 20% of women would still earn less than nothing and have to pay their employee for the privilege of working 25 cents for every dollar that others make.
    Now for the infamous seventy-five cents on a dollar. This would mean that 25% of the workingwomen would have to be working for free. Sorry folks but I cannot buy into this. Less than 75% of women making 100% of what men make? Truly a reasonable rational person would realize the magnitude of this number and realize that it is just not feasible but would be a problem so monumental that it would be a headline story every day, not just once a year.
    The numbers tell all. This will delve deep into the absurd. If only 7 of 10 earn 100% then the other 3 would earn only 16.67 cents on a dollar.
    If only 6 of 10 earn 100% then the remaining 4 that is left would earn 37.5 cents on a dollar.
    Only 5 of 10 earn 100% then the other 5 would earn only 50 cents on a dollar.
    Only 4 of 10 earn 100% then the other 6 would earn only 58.3 cents on a dollar
    If only 3 of 10 earn 100% then the remaining 7 that is left would earn only 64.29 cents on a dollar.
    If only 2 of 10 earn 100% then the 8 that are left would earn only 68.75 cents on a dollar.
    If only 1 of 10 earn 100% then the 9 that are left would earn only 72.22 cents on a dollar.
    If 0 of 10 earn 100% then the 10 that are left would earn 75% cents on a dollar.”

    Hmmm… Now what does that say huh? Why don’t employers only hire women to save 25% off employee overhead costs and demolish the competition?

    …to be continued

  • ReiJ

    @ CW, post #39 …continuation

    Paragraph 15-16: Spending Gap:
    There is this false assumption that implies that women only buy things that are FOR the family. How does the money they spend of spas, beauty treatments, clothes, luxuries, etc. account for that? Granted, it is not much an issue though but let me ask you this: Which group would you rather belong to? The group that works and earns more? Or the Group that stays home and SPENDS the money SOMEBODY ELSE EARNED?
    Paragraph 17: Personal Unsubstantiated attack on Warren Farrell
    Really, that’s all there is to it on this paragraph. Stooping so low as to attack his sexual history in a blatant “Code Purple” http://theghostnation.com/category/feminist-shaming-language/
    Let me ask this question: Have you even READ THE BOOK? How can you say that his claims are unsubstantiated when your claim about him itself is unsubstantiated.
    Paragraph 18-20: Men’s Hazard Jobs:
    The combat aspect has been discussed previously. As for men banning women from those jobs… Ok, would you rather work as a waitress, or as a construction worker/lumberjack/soldier/SEWAGE worker? Oh, and despite measures designed to protect employees, ACCIDENTS HAPPEN.
    I DO admit there is an issue with regards to why men won’t allow women on these jobs. They want to protect women from injury! But that has to change, right? As soon as they do, please get yourself and your girlfriends to start working at ACME Sewage and Septic tank cleaning Co., or maybe even ACME Coal Mining and Quarrying Co. I assure you it’s a “privilege” rather than be oppressed into waitressing or a comfy deck clerk/secretary job. I may not be able to guarantee the extra pay though.
    Paragraph 20: Suicide:
    Let me ask you this: if WOMEN were 80% of ALL successful suicides, don’t you think it would get as MUCH if not MORE attention that the Pay Gap, or even Rape? How much would the government give to study and correct the problem? Right… but seeing as the problem only affects men…
    Paragraph 21-23: Domestic Violence against Men:
    Ever hear about the Duluth Model that states that only men can be abusers and only women are victims? With that being taught to social workers, it’s no wonder people FALSELY believe that such is the ONLY POSSIBILITY that exists.
    SEVERAL HUNDRED STUDIES (in case you don’t like Straus) over the years have confirmed that domestic violence between genders are EQUAL and MOSTLY RECIPROCAL. Now tell me… how many MEN’s shelters are there? How many WOMEN’s shelters are there? Yeah… Oh and by the way… have you ACTUALLY READ Straus’ study for you to say that it’s “about a woman smacking a guy and his strangling her as “equal”.”?
    Also, before you excuse feminists, please understand that it was THEM who made the Duluth Model and it is also them who keep Lobbying for it to STAY.
    Paragraph 24-26: Recession:
    The recession cut down fields in Construction and similar male oriented jobs. If construction for you is a “better job”, then why don’t you get it?
    By the way, before downplaying the fate of those men, do remember that for most who lost their jobs have WIVES that were also affected. That changes EVERYTHING huh? Simply because a woman also suffered.
    Paragraph 27-28: Custody Disputes:
    I agree with you there. The issue is against the non-custodial parent which just so happens to be mostly men. Disregard the fact that 70%+ of divorces were initiated by women (incentives are they get the house, kids, and FUTURE ALIMONY from the husband). Oh, and women are awarded custody of the children over 80% of the time because the judge awards it to women. And IF the man is the primary caregiver… http://www.dailymail.co.uk/…/Househusband-backlash-high-flying-wives-ditch-men-em-em-wanted-stay-home.html
    Paragraph 29-30: Epidemic:
    It’s not an epidemic. Still, it’s not unsubstantial either. Again, refer to the paragraphs about rape and domestic violence.
    Oh, by the way, for the spousal abuse part, please do recall the “Primary aggressor” and “Mandatory arrest” laws that say that in DV cases, those who are “bigger” or “seems more capable of inflicting harm” are those arrested and never the ones who “*seem* more terrified” REGARDLESS OF WHO WAS DOING THE ABUSING.
    Paragraph 31-32: History and Men’s studies:
    To set things straight, let us compare history versus women’s studies.
    Women’s studies were all about looking at the female gender role and their personal problems. These sought to change things by liberating them from their roles and being free, as well as provide solutions to their role-related problems. It had a humanizing effect as students are taught and made to understand the problems faced by women in history.
    History/so-called men’s studies on the other hand, is the opposite. It addresses FACTS (e.g. 500,000 soldiers [read MEN] died on battle X at Y, the “White Feather” campaign where WOMEN shamed men into FIGHTING in the WAR lest they be labeled COWARDS) and the like. It also REINFORCES GENDER ROLES for Men. Look at the famous men in the books, they are the “brave” ones who DIED valiantly, the males who had to be ALPHA to even be considered worthy of gracing the pages of history. Oh by the way, it is also dehumanizing for men since we are not taught (in excruciating detail) how men suffered (only women’s suffering seems to need addressing) in the past and men are referred to as “soldiers,” “workers,” etc. who DIED in X numbers, not knowing their experiences and feelings (again, see “Saving Private Ryan” clip above).
    Before you say that only MEN start wars, remember Margaret Thatcher, Indira Ghandi, Catherine the Great, Queen Mary, Tz’u-his, Golda Meir, Elizabeth I, Sirimavo Bandaranaike and her daughter, Queen Isabella of Spain and Queen Victoria of England. http://www.freehate.com/womensuck/evilrulers.html
    I quote from the above article:
    “This brings us to an important point. Many people might say “well they [women rulers] did cause wars but look at the good it brought to their country?”. Well thats just stupid, because EVERY male leader who caused a war thought exactly the same. So then all war is just and good, right? Or only when females cause it?”

    Final Two Paragraphs:
    Good luck to you on that. As you have demonstrated to be willing to share the financial burden, you are FAR better than most other women out there.

    Anyway, that’s it for this rebuttal. See ya!

  • CW

    “I have stacks of books by feminist.”

    Good to know.

    “I would bet that if I hooked you up to a lie detector and asked how you feel about men as a group it would be similar to a KKK guy asked how they feel about blacks.”

    Oh geez…

    “Imagine Kim Gandy seeing women get on their knees asking men to marry, that “romantic” act would be seen as what it really is.”

    If you want to get down on a knee and ask somebody to marry you, go for it. It’s a silly social norm which, like the rest of your examples, exists only to reward well-behaved women and put them on a pedestal but otherwise mean nothing.

    Anyway, yes, it’s pretty clear certain social traditions put pressure on men to validate women (who otherwise wouldn’t be validated) and impress their friends. Kind of like women being punished for liking sex, speaking their minds, working or not working, etc., except with women the outcome is generally more negative and long-lasting (part of that whole negative playing-field thing). It also sucks idiot male presidents sent guys to war, but we’ve been over this. I’m just not seeing how this changes the fact that women have been oppressed because of their gender and men haven’t.

    “Sexual assault of boys by girls or women doesn’t count and ya’ll pretend it doesn’t happen or doesn’t matter.”

    What the hell are you talking about?

    Anyway, I can’t really take examples from your life to mean anything overall except they’re examples. I could counter them all right now and I was born in 1984. Ever be a woman and work in a bar? Just saying.

    “If you are taught to only see your own gender’s issues and that’s all you look for you will find only that.”

    Gee, I’m limited to what this author posted but I made it pretty clear I’m aware of the issues men faced. On the other hand, most of you guys just misrepresented, trivialized, and dismissed the ones against women. It’s as if you’re scared that if people acknowledge women as a gender are oppressed, we won’t be able to talk about men anymore. I understand why; the cultural backdrop of male-as-default creates such expectations among people.

    “Ya, I read the stories too.. I know WF and he isn’t supporting child molesters but he does influence others so feminists need to trash him in the worst way.”

    I don’t read “stories”. I just saw what the guy said about it. Had I been a feminist in the 70s, I would have distanced myself from him once he’d said that too. I’ve also read his work. He seems amazingly frustrated and entitled, perhaps a good talker, but not much else.

    “it’s BEEN PROVEN that pay discrimination is more myth that real.”

    No it hasn’t. There have just been studies seeking alternative theories to account for the pay gap aside from bosses paying men and women different amounts at every turn, which was never all the pay gap was about anyway but what Warren Farrell-types would like it to be. Some legit, some questionable, some bunk, but none of them account of it entirely. But since you opened that window, yes, there have been studies that show discrimination takes place affecting wages (including the same work being evaluated differently if the name was distinctively male).

    “That truth affects men and women’s income and you know it.”

    Not from your high school class twenty years ago, sorry.

    “And because your mom didn’t didn’t get to take shop class or your great grandma didn’t get to vote doesn’t compare to men dying in the work place, or being called pigs by feminists, or dying in war, or losing limbs, going blind in war, … or losing children in biased custody battles./Tell me one thing that has happened to you as a woman that compares to a man losing his life in his role as a man in work or war.”

    That is some awfully convenient cherry-picking there. Anyway, I’m not going to be baited. The draft no longer exists so I or anybody can’t be drafted, I do know women on disability from work or of ones who died in war or lost limbs or their minds. What you’re forgetting here is who enforced these policies.

    “In the book “Guilty by Reason of Insanity” Dorthy Lewis MD writes about a six year-old boy forced to perform cunnulingus (sp) on his mom by his mom… what we all have in common is that not one of us is in a study, or police report related to these incidents.”

    That is unfortunate. My sister and cousin (now deceased from breast cancer at 26, RIP) were both molested by a man who never faced prosecution or anything. He did the same to his own children. It’s a terrible feeling.

    “Sexual abuse of males isn’t looked for or it’s joked about.”

    To a degree, it is. You’re correct and this is tragic and something feminists address all the time. However this is just the other side of the same coin as men getting away with sexually abusing “loose” seeming women, or that 15 year-old girl who got lectured by the judge after being gang-raped at a party by drunk guys because SHE was drinking. Or the OC Rape Case where the damn thing was on video and they had to go through two trials because she was “a sexual being”. It’s the notion that men want sex, must want sex, always want sex, are slaves to their penis, and are basically less of a man (or just a woman, because that’s an insult) for not always wanting sex and that women are things sex happens to, embody sex, that “good girls” don’t want sex, and that women are responsible for men’s actions to the point of restricting their lives. Sexual abuse of women is eroticized as with men it is often played for laughs. Sexual humiliation of women is played for laughs and shame and makes her “available” to any man. Sexual humiliation of men is played for emasculation.

    As long as this remains status quo, we’ll continue to face these things.

    “Rape, it doesn’t just happen in prison by men. Were you “blaming the victim” because a man raped the man.”

    No, but when it does happen to men, it is mostly in prison. When it happens in prison, it is mostly by men. When it happens in general, it is mostly to women by men. And women get blamed for it. I have no idea what your second sentenced even means. Makes no sense.

    “Some of the men are in prison from false rape claims that you think are rare. Most of the men getting out of prison from the innocence project were their accuse of rape.”

    Some women are in prison because of false accusations of rape, and other things, too (see? I did what YOU did!). As for the Innocence Project, I don’t remember specifically. But, like I’ve encountered with (most) MRAs, you’re obfuscating the truth. Some 89% of the exonerated men in the rape cases were merely misidentified, meaning over all those years only some 11% were NOT cases of misidentification. In 21% (I believe) of exonerated males, the victim was murdered which tends to make it pretty hard for her to falsely accuse. The actual rapist is the culprit here and he is a man. Once again, men making it hard for other men.

    “Ya, you like a few, but for women like you most men are pigs.”

    Actually, no. In fact I’m usually telling other men that it isn’t true; when they behave inappropriately or try to sexually humiliate a woman, they’ll say “oh, men are pigs. Deal with it, girlie!” or something along those lines. They say it with pride to boot because there is no genuine negativity they’ll face aside from criticism (and it’s from me, a woman). It’s basically acceptable.

    But you make it clear by calling me a man-hater and telling me what I think that you have your mind made-up already. You don’t want to address anything and hear only what you want.

    Anyway, none of that shows women’s oppression to be a myth, especially not this article.

    He begins by mentioning feminism in terms of some “forty odd years” as if feminism only began / was recognized in 1970’s United States. He proceeds to cherry-pick historical examples of gender-based oppression of women before deciding it wasn’t that bad because it didn’t last forever. He already defined oppression on his own terms (“bullwhips and gas chambers”, yes) so that couldn’t be oppression anyway. Then he decides to characterize women then as dying for some guy to build them a house, as if the women had any other real options, and the men as all hard-done souls who apparently didn’t benefit from the promise of impregnating a woman so the son can inherit the business. He goes on to not only white-wash powerful men as mere Constitution-writers rather than acknowledge they created and enforced these laws and mores in addition to why men “faced bullets”, but neglects to distinguish them from everyday men. No mention of spousal rape, domestic violence and how violence against women was tolerated in the law, family abandonment, or women essentially being property. But he does jump ahead and use the recession to score points and the fact that there are more women in colleges to say … something, even though it doesn’t affect men career-wise and is likely just a gendered-function of economics. He rambles on about chivalry which, again, only applied to upper-middle class white women who knew their place and as far as any feminist is concerned can be done away with.

    What he doesn’t do is show that women’s oppression is a myth; he just plays definist with the word. In his attempt to trump male-privilege with the fact that houses don’t build themselves and men fight each other or target women they “own” in struggles for power, he ironically highlights women’s oppression. He stops short of saying it was women’s doing resulting in men having to build houses and face bullets but he starts and stops there without acknowledging powerful men did this to less powerful men.

    What it comes down to is that rigid gender-roles hurt men and women, as does the patriarchy. When it comes to men and women specifically, it isn’t a level playing field with men at the advantage. But in the struggle to win, men are knocking each other off and Conservative/traditionals try to shame men into doing it the dangerous, unhealthy way while they’re up there and to women while they’re down there. Men, as a gender, don’t have it easy; but men, as a gender, aren’t oppressed. But women are. To say that is absurd would be absurd

  • DonnieH

    Regarding the wage gap- I like the American Association of University Women’s report better than the CONSAD report:

    http://www.aauw.org/research/upload/behindPayGap.pdf

    Because it has much higher entertainment value. Just try and read the Executive Summary without laughing, you’ll see what I mean. These “university women” argue that the wage gap is understated because it . . . wait for it . . . doesn’t include the non-earnings of non-working women. Brilliant! These university women don’t argue for including the non-incomes of incarcerated men, homeless men, or non-working men to close the alledged gap. Probably just an oversight.

    They show their true colors when they say “Female students cannot simply choose a major that will allow them to avoid the pay gap.” and just a few page later state that female engineering graduates make 5% more than their male peers (i.e., male engineering graduates, apples-to-apples), which they call “parity”. It is important to note that when women earn less, it is gender discrimination, but when women earn more, it is parity. Hmmmm. Where have we heard THAT before?

    “men, their rights and nothing more; women, their rights and nothing less.”- Susan B. Anthony, 1868 (some things seem to never change)

    BTW- SBA voted in 1872 (straight Republican ticket) claiming rights under the 14th Amendment.

  • julie

    Long comment CW.

    ***I’m just not seeing how this changes the fact that women have been oppressed because of their gender and men haven’t.****

    And you are? What sort of authority do you hold to stop men’s rights and men fighting their own oppression? (Of course men are oppressed because of their gender).

    If you ARE a feminist you should be arguing that women have it worse than men not that men have no issues or oppression to be upset and angry about. You seem to need to be reminded that this is a war over resources also known as government taxes, donations from business and workers and that men have to fight because angry feminists say they did so men should.

    Men will get their turn. It is just a matter of convincing the majority of society that women have to share. Naughty girls. lol

    Radical feminism is about female supremacy yet they too don’t deny men are oppressed, they want it that way.

  • jon

    I don’t have the patience for all these long comments but there’s another thing that bugs me. The claim that men oppress men really isn’t meaningful. Powerful people sometimes use their power to oppress people they have power over. Powerful people are almost all men. The reason for this is that men do things. Pretty much every significant organization, idea, and invention in the history of the world comes from men. This creates positions of power that are naturally filled mostly by the kind of people that created them. I think most discussions of men vs. women are basically comparing apples to oranges. The fundamental differences between the sexes are too big for these discussions to be anything but nonsense.

  • julie

    Cw # 48,

    I jumped the gun with my comment #50 thinking you were attacking rather than discussing. My apologies. To make up for it I will comment to your comment properly. :D

    ***If you want to get down on a knee and ask somebody to marry you, go for it. It’s a silly social norm which, like the rest of your examples, exists only to reward well-behaved women and put them on a pedestal but otherwise mean nothing.***

    Men aren’t getting on one knee or buying expensive rings for engagement and marriage because they are rewarding well behaved women. Women expect this. Have you ever watched Bridezilla? Have you even noticed the first thing girlfriends want to know is the details on how he proposed and how expensive the ring is and other gifts? Women judge a men’s worth on how much he is willing to give to her. And as women compete with other women gestures and money spent on them will determine how much they will respect men.

    ***Anyway, yes, it’s pretty clear certain social traditions put pressure on men to validate women (who otherwise wouldn’t be validated) and impress their friends.***

    I see you already knew what I was saying.

    ***Kind of like women ……being punished for liking sex, speaking their minds, working or not working, etc., except with women the outcome is generally more negative and long-lasting (part of that whole negative playing-field thing). ***

    Oh, there you are. I almost thought we might get away without the competition on who is worse off. Yes, you are a feminist.

    ***It also sucks idiot male presidents sent guys to war, but we’ve been over this. I’m just not seeing how this changes the fact that women have been oppressed because of their gender and men haven’t.***

    It also sucks when women send men to war as leaders of countries but I guess since America hasn’t had a woman president yet, feminists still get to say this. It even sucks that feminists want men to wear white ribbons to show they will fight another man to death even to protect women. I suppose that is the same as the white feather women gave prior to WWI to shame men for not wanting to die on the battle field while women stayed far away from harm.

    continue next comment….

  • julie

    Cw # 48,

    ***“Sexual assault of boys by girls or women doesn’t count and ya’ll pretend it doesn’t happen or doesn’t matter.”
    What the hell are you talking about?***

    Since child rights have been in the spotlight, female sex abuse is starting to be reported. The numbers of reports are raising fast and although men still account for the majority of cases it is expected women will show up as equal amount since female sex abuse has been under reported for a long, long time.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8347589.stm
    http://www.sowetan.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=413523
    http://www.lawfirms.com/female-teacher-sex-crime-offenders-and-scandals.html
    http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/18595822/detail.html#-
    http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1901762,00.html

    ***There have just been studies seeking alternative theories to account for the pay gap aside from bosses paying men and women different amounts at every turn, which was never all the pay gap was about anyway but what Warren Farrell-types would like it to be. Some legit, some questionable, some bunk, but none of them account of it entirely. But since you opened that window, yes, there have been studies that show discrimination takes place affecting wages (including the same work being evaluated differently if the name was distinctively male).***

    The pay gap has a lot of agendas behind it. It ranges from increased tax collection to minimum wages being increased to women getting paid to stay at home and take care of children to affirmative action in politics and business and more. There needs to be new studies because the previous ones have all been shown to be false. It is not a reality but just a tactic for unions and feminists to gain more power. I know because I interviewed leaders of this work and researched news from countries that adopted this. The present NZ government is getting non feminist and non unionist research done because we are not a big country.

    ***Sexual abuse of males isn’t looked for or it’s joked about.”
    To a degree, it is. You’re correct and this is tragic and something feminists address all the time.***

    No they don’t. There is not one men’s group for male victims of sexual assault on any rape boards. Feminists may say they talk but that talk means nothing.

    continue next comment….

  • julie

    Cw # 48, (last one)

    *** However this is just the other side of the same coin as men getting away with sexually abusing “loose” seeming women, …..***

    I didn’t copy the rest of this. I do agree that we are quite happy to leave a drunk man lying in the street alone so we should leave a woman to the same. My point being that we don’t rape men because they are drunk so we shouldn’t rape women when they are drunk. What we really need to do is have advertisements explaining to men that sex with women when drinking is considered rape. Since most rape accusations is from someone who the woman knows husbands and boyfriends need to be warned. If you do that women won’t have sex when drinking. Problem solved; no oppression.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-425123/Men-face-jail-rape-women-drunk-consent-bed-boost-convictions.html

    ***No, but when it does happen to men, it is mostly in prison.***

    Can you show where this information comes from please. I have left out much of this comment but will share some articles to help you see how bad false rape accusations are for men.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/truth-test-to-uncover-false-rape-allegations-634512.html
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/false-accusations-made-the-case-for-anonymity-699258.html

    ***What it comes down to is that rigid gender-roles hurt men and women, as does the patriarchy.***

    The problem with a statement like this is that is doesn’t explain why gays and lesbians have a top and bottom. Relationships seem to work well when they are in some type of Patriarchy relationship. And most women enjoy being submissive in some way to men. This is a major problem because it is women who are holding men back from what feminists want them to be. No matter how many times women are challenged on radio stations and in normal friendly discussions that they are expecting a double standard, they just shrug it off and say that is the way it is and they don’t care to change it. Feminists need to change women IMHO rather than focus on men as being responsible so they can get on with their own study of history.

    *** Men, as a gender, don’t have it easy; but men, as a gender, aren’t oppressed. But women are. To say that is absurd would be absurd***

    Under International Human Rights men only have the right to take responsibility of women. There is not one right men are being given that is for men. They are solely meant to serve women. Women are oppressing men like no other group has ever been oppressed.

    (Please take the time to visit the links. I really didn’t have the time to write this much but you deserved a better response that I gave #50)

  • http://brandonwalsh.wordpress.com/2009/12/01/mens-rights-activists/ Breaking the Shackles « Rational Riposte

    [...] an article published on Men’s News Daily a couple days ago called The Myth of Women’s Oppression. The basic information isn’t new and it’s what you’d expect of a men’s [...]

  • jon

    I’m adding to my comment 51.

    I’ve been thinking about the basic differences between men and women and one of the big ones is that men are a much more diverse group. The differences in intelligence and personality are much bigger in men than in women. This makes men far more difficult to discuss as a whole than women. Men are far more likely to be independent thinkers than women because we are generally less dependent on being accepted by a group and more inclined to rational thought in general. Diversity of ability, thought, and action is far greater in men.

    Our species is naturally male dominated. (The generally bigger and stronger sex is the dominant one.) Males also naturally form hierarchies and some form organizations and do big things. This creates hierarchies of power. I think “the patriarchy” or whatever you want to call it is a fundamental characteristic of our species. It can get really messed up, like now, but I don’t think it will ever go away. That’s sort of a random unsupported thought but it’s about the 500th paragraph in this comments section so what the heck.

  • http://www.atheists.org Larry Carter Center

    The Myth of Males showing intelligence is evident here. Perhaps a dozen or so countries from Iceland to Denmark have been abating patriarchy and oppression of women while the Bush Crime Family, I presume represents model heroics of this insane website? I had previously assumed the only nutcase males that existed were on anti-abortion websites, Turner Diaries obsessives, Helter SKelter Charles Manson wannabees? Males are oppressed by their own idiot attitudes, willingly avoiding worker solidarity and collective bargaining. A man who does not act like a god’s gift to lovers, instead being supportive, affirming and truth telling is easily loved and wanted by either another intelligent male or woman highly attracted to the voice of liberty. Victim blaming is the true name of this website. I am ashamed of males here with a vocabulary spinning such half truths and total bald faced lies. Elam does not deserve the title Mister. Feminism, like evolution is a fact. Patriarchy is an evil theocratic cultural diversion away from our nuturant species. Elam is an apologist for violence, extortion and dishonesty towards women. His vain false praise of some women belies the need of more men necessary to complete the restoration of a caring human race. We’ll have global warming and continued war profiteering, if both decent women and men do not love side by side working for the eradication of all forms of oppression.

  • jon

    what up the larry carter center? You are a wacky mug! I appreciate that you left a short stupid post instead of all the other long ones on this article. I actually read yours. I especially like this sentence:

    “I had previously assumed the only nutcase males that existed were on anti-abortion websites, Turner Diaries obsessives, Helter SKelter Charles Manson wannabees?”

    That’s good stuff right there. You’re just a silly goose with nothing to offer but entertainment. You are entertaining, though, and that’s way better than nothing.

  • lilly 123

    Woman have had no say in this male story from day one
    No gods -just the ones man generated
    No say on how the mapping of world developed to date
    No say in language, architecture and on and on
    Half our species has been bullied and mistreated by male and the dizzy woman doesn’t even know it happened
    The male made the soup and then accuse woman for it’s bad taste
    There are no female gods that came to earth to guide humans just the ones man made up and i defy anyone to name one that wasn’t from a male waring mind and then half our species follow something they had no say in–now that’s brainwashing
    lilly123-saying for the shake of saying as a formed mind is for life

  • DonnieH

    “Woman have had no say in this male story from day one
    No gods -just the ones man generated”

    Google: female gods of war
    (Partial list)

    Babd – Irish
    Skatha – Welsh
    Athena – Greek
    Minerva – Roman
    Freya – Norse
    Inanna – Sumer
    And a Yahoo answer to “Why are there so many female goddesses of War?” You can read the answers for yourself.

    Nevermind Hecate, Persephone, Demeter, Hera, Pandora, Aphrodite, Clotho-Lachesis-Atropos and a bunch more from our Greek cultural foundations you can read about here: http://www.paleothea.com/Goddesses.html

    Yup, women are totally absent and no doubt played absolutely zero part in the development of these traditions, based on your naked assertion. Very informative, indeed. I haven’t seen any women in any Christmas Nativity scenes lately, either. Have you? Didn’t think so!

    I found this to be particularly amusing: “No say in language”

    Is this supposed to be satirical? Ha ha. Very funny (and a very clever play on Spanglish). Bravo.

    As someone noted on another thread, the days when a feminist could spew absurd drivel unopposed are pretty much over.

  • PT

    Certain new translations of the Bible have been re-written to be “gender-inclusive.” Never mind the integrity of the original text, now the Bible– God’s eternal holy word has to be politically correct and culturally sensitive! Where is the oppression of women today?! Note: Biblical authenticity has been compromised to appease a previously underrepresented group!

    Bad Girls Club, Girls Gone Wild, Bridezillas, to name a few shows– women acting out in as morally outlandish a way as they please (and without societal demand that these shows be banished). What oppression of women? Note: Women are free to be as foolish on TV as men!

    Divorce and family laws that favor the wife/mother in custody battles. What oppression of women? Note: Female is given preference in domestic situation.

    It seems that modern society is not oppressing women any more.

  • syndromia

    And were similar things not always avaliable? I’ve seen some early porn films and let me tell you, Girls Gone Wild has nothing on it.

    And society does demand those things; women fighting outrageously for the love of a man who is average at best? That’s high class entertainment. I was scolded recently for letting a fellow I was seeing go when it became obvious that he was persuing someone else. Apparently I was supposed to go to the other ‘bitch’ and claw her eyes out. That’s what society wants from a girl these days, catfights and fighting for a man.

    And the Bible wasn’t faxed direct from God, so don’t act as though it was. It’s the combined work of many writers in three languages mostly writing older folk tales. And the New Testement? The oldest documents we can find were written 100+ years after he died and are based on what the Church voted acceptable. The original Word has been garbled and lost, though this is perhaps a discussion for another time and place.

    Who here gets to say God is a man though? Did women get a vote way back at the Council of Nicaea when men held a vote to determine which passages would go into the ‘official’ Bible and to vote on Jesus’s divinity? Who’s to say that books stating that God is a woman weren’t lost through that male dominated vote way back when, six hundred years after Jesus’s death?

  • Denis

    From 2006 here on MND (by Denis):

    http://mensnewsdaily.com/wp-admin/edit-comments.php?s=Denis&mode=detail&comment_status=all&pagegen_timestamp=2010-01-12+04%3A47%3A56&action=-1&comment_type=all&apage=137

    Some excerpts:

    Voting was handled at the community level, and after 1789
    (I belive that was the year the U.S. Constitution was signed), localities handled the processing of voting. Voting rights were not given even to ALL white men. Only to those men (white or any other race, color, except of course slaves) who were property owners.
    These were decisions made at the local level. Women were not excluded by the Constitution.

    (In other words, the old “white male privilege” charge often used by feminists and black leaders is a cannard.) This was done because in the late 1700’s and in the 1800s many men made a living as tradesmen moving from town to town. They stayed around until there wasn’t anymore work, and they moved from town to town until they found work that paid. As they were rootless men, the towns would not let them vote as they had no vested interests personally in the larger communities interests.

    Women who were married to property owners voted if their husband was sick or away on business, or away during wartime (e.g., War of 1812, Civil War). The wife would vote on candidates and referendum in the same way as her husband-that is, what was seen as best for the communities and for FAMILIES.

    Voting never was a white male privilege but rather a “property owner privilege”. Granted the vast majority of property owners were white males, but not all white males were property owners. Far from it.

  • Maize A.

    Grade-school history classes don’t really qualify you as an expert on the history of women’s treatment in society, I’m afraid… At first I thought this article was satirical, based on the gross misrepresentation of women’s position in pre-modern Europe… For starters, you’re backwards-projecting assumptions about choice in marriage (many women had significantly less choice in husbands than you’re suggesting, since their inability to seek employment or own their own property meant that they could not defy their father’s wishes in a marriage without risking total impoverishment–and once married, they could not seek a divorce–even in times when women were legally allowed to initiate a divorce–without similar risks, especially in eras where re-marriage was difficult), physical safety in marriages (in many eras it was not illegal to beat one’s wife, and in many cultures it was even expected), and access to custody after marriage (it was only very recently that women were given preferential custody to their children).

    Oppression of women has frequently been physical as well as economic, despite your claim to the contrary, not only because violence against women has not always been illegal within the family domain, but also because many cultures have had laws that provided physical penalties (up to and including death) for women who violated gender and sexual norms.

    Believe what you want, but if you’re going to talk about history you should make sure you have better sources than the notes you took in grade-school.

  • http://avoiceformen.com/ Paul Elam

    @ Maize A.

    You’re right, the reference to grade school history was satirical.

    But I would offer up that this level of educations provides no less understanding of history, and probably more, than your women’s studies department.

    When your indoctrination forces you to see all history in a model of corrupt and oppressive patriarchy, then it forces you to ignore more history than you learn, and to create more history than actually happened.

    To the latter, this is where we get nonsense like the “rule of thumb” being a wife beaters weapon measurement. And to the former, we get references, like yours, that claim wife beating was legal, when in fact there is a long and documented history of it being illegal, with severe penalties, including imprisonment and flogging for men who violated those laws. Of course that is notwithstanding the fact that we need to assume that women of that time were as much or nearly as violent and abusive as they are today.

    Just another tidbit that probably won’t be making the rounds in your local “women’s studies” department.

    And last, amid all your objections you really didn’t make your case that women were ever oppressed. You just demonstrated that regardless of what real history bears out, there is only one way you are going to see it and it has little to do with being scholarly.

  • DonnieH

    Maize A. would like you to believe that women could not own property: ” their inability to seek employment or own their own property”

    In 1749, Martha Dandridge married Daniel Custis, a wealthy land owner. “Daniel Custis’ death in 1757 left Martha a rich widow, with independent control over a dower inheritance for her lifetime and trustee control over the inheritance of her minor children.” In 1759, Martha Dandridge Custis married George Washington. (Basic 5th grade American history).

    So in order to believe Maize A., we must come to the unfortunate conclusion that our grade school history teacher lied to us when she told us Martha Dandridge Custis owned Mt. Vernon before she married Geo. Washington, and that Geo. Washington married into money (just like Martha did when she married Daniel Custis). I’m speechless. What’s next? Are you going to tell me there’s no Easter Bunny?

    BTW, Maize A., if a woman couldn’t own property, as you say, what happened to maritial property when her husband died? Did it revert back to her father in law? Did it become the property of the eldest son? What happened to the title of the real estate, since women couldn’t own property? I’m sure this issue was addressed in women’s studies classes. Thanking you in advance . . .

  • Joe P.

    The Larry Carter Center? I challege him/her to expose some of the “lies” posted on this site so they can be debated. And lets keep it relevent to 2010, OK?

    I wish it was a woman who made that post, but I know better. His reference to the “Bush Crime Family,” global warming, and “war profiteering” exposes him for the snivelling self-castrating leftist that he is, a knees-together sissy who got beat up a lot as a kid.

  • http://shatterdmen.com/ Shatteredmen

    @Paul Elam

    Of course that is notwithstanding the fact that we need to assume that women of that time were as much or nearly as violent and abusive as they are today.

    Proverbs 21:9, 21:19 and 25:24 all talk about violent women and that it is better for a man to live in a closet or the wilderness than to live with a violent woman. I do not remember Proverbs saying anything about women living with violent men.

    In fact from much of what I have seen, almost every society has protected their women, often at the cost of men’s lives.

  • Alanlmillard

    This is absolutely excellent! If only the truth were as popular as is the feminist fiction and propaganda.

    Alan Millard
    Men and Fathers for Justice
    http://www.alanleemillard.com

  • Alanlmillard

    This is absolutely excellent! If only the truth were as popular as is the feminist fiction and propaganda.

    Alan Millard
    Men and Fathers for Justice
    http://www.alanleemillard.com






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