Why Couples Counseling Rarely Works with Abusive Women

I think what you said about a woman showing up to therapy hoping to change her partner is true, indeed, most couples come into therapy hoping the therapist will change their partner. It’s no fun to look at ourselves, and to accept that both of us have a part in creating the problems in our relationship. Relationship issues are rarely only one person’s creation. However, I feel that couples therapy is beyond blaming partners, creating boundaries, or holding partners accountable.

I wholeheartedly agree with the statement “Working on “communication skills,” “exercising patience” and scheduling a “weekly date night” simply doesn’t cut it. It’s like putting a band-aid on an open chest wound.” Yes. However, I disagree with “These conditions only improve if they’re accurately diagnosed and the individual with the disorder undergoes a highly structured form of cognitive-behavioral therapy.” If one is to explore the development of Borderline Personality Disorder and related conditions, you realize that what often happened is at a very critical moment in that individual’s life, the attachment figures (usually mom and dad) were not there for that person. This person learned people are not really safe, you can’t truly count on them, even though more than anything, you desire to trust those people.

This innate need to feel securely connected and attached to a parent/caregiver is the same need in a romantic relationship. We need to know our partners are there for us, that they can support us when we need them to. We ask our partners, again and again, in many different words and ways, “Can I count on you?” or “If I call, will you come?”

If you explore the symptoms or behaviors of a person diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, you find him/her to exhibit intense fears of abandonment, a pattern of unstable relationships, an unstable self-image, and chronic feelings of emptiness. The treatment then for this type of “relationship” or attachment injury is not necessarily only a highly structured form of cognitive behavioral therapy, but also relational treatment approaches, namely Emotionally Focused Therapy. This approach works at moving beyond simple tasks of communication exercises to truly exploring the underlying fears and needs partners are expressing in their relationships. This approach is empirically supported by a large body of research, with 75% of couples treated moving from distress to recovery. For more information on this approach, visit: http://www.iceeft.com/whatis.htm

@ Ashley

I just read your post and was reminded of everything wrong with the average marriage counselor, which is pretty much everything.

Have you ever been in a relationship with a borderline personality? I have, and I can tell you, as you should well know, that supposed axioms like “Relationship issues are rarely only one person’s creation,” are meaningless in most of these cases. Sure, we all bring our baggage and problems into relationships, and no one ever walked into a therapists office with wings on their shoulders.

But your post completely ignores that in relationships where one partner is borderline or narcissistic, the abuse and consequent damages are of no less immanent need of termination than a relationship where one partner is a chronically battering alcoholic.

Pointing out (the obvious) that borderlines are needy and have an exaggerated fear of abandonment is about as helpful to a victim of their abuse as pointing out that a batterer has anger management issues.

And this speaks two significant problems with practitioners in your field. One, it is routine to be enabling of abusive females, especially by espousing the “hey, it’s nobodies fault” nonsense when one of your clients is being actively abused. And two, it demonstrates an abject insensitivity to traumatized men who are lead to believe that what they are going through is part of a “shared problem” and that there are other priorities than boundaries.

For twenty years I watched personality disordered women go to therapy and do nothing more than learn a new language through which they could justify and excuse their abuses.

There may indeed be some treatment approaches with limited efficacy for borderlines and narcissists (75% is an absolute crock in ANY treatment) but for those approaches to be used in the context of couples counseling is unconscionable.

Men who are being abused need to get away from the abuse. Just like women. The answer, first and foremost is boundaries and safety.

Additionally, the sources available through the link you provided are highly suspect. One, they aren’t linked. Just headers, which tell me nothing. Also, in going through all of them I never saw the term personality disorder once. So clearly what you are touting here as a solution can’t be given any empirical credibility relative to the relationships cited in the article here.

If you have a vested financial interest in EFT, please tell us, because right now I am thinking it may not be coincidental that those letters also stand for Electronic Funds Transfer.

It is no wonder that so many men are mistrustful of therapy.

Its very simple why abusive women do not respond. First they are abusive because they hold all the cards. They know a divorce means they get all the money. Counseling is just going through the motions so later they can justify abusing their children.

Therapy is all fine and good if you need it. If you need it you are probably weak or you (or she) were brought up under the Psyco-Pharma concept that predominates modern society. In all likelihood you (or she) needed a reset earlier in life but failed to receive it.

A little corporal punishment placed at the right moment early in life (i.e. you are being an ass and your father smacks you) is equivalent to the reset button. After that experience your young brain goes into reset mode and begins to work correctly again. Without that reset it continues on its destructive path and at some point a reset will not work anymore. Thus you (or she) find yourself endlessly in need of therapy.

I gotta laugh at the last post by old timer. Thank God times have changed. I’d like to add that if the woman you are with criticizes or refused to go to therapy then get the hell out. The will do an preemptive strike with criticism so that they cannot be exposed. It’s better to dump her and go to therapy alone to work out your own issues.

And when a group of these dysfunctional women unite and find a lawmaker who agrees with them, like Joe Biden, they get laws passed like the Violence Against Women Act (VAWA). The batterers then run the taxpayer funded, domestic violence industry and their male victims are battered mercilessly and relentlessly.

@ Paul

Thanks for fielding Ashley’s comment. The only thing I would add is that many seasoned Dialectical Behavioral therapists are very clear that the healing/work a person with BPD needs to do in order to get some semblance of control over their lives can’t be done in the context of their primary relationship; it needs to be done in therapy. Otherwise, the BPD continues to jumble mommy/daddy/hubby into the same entity.

That’s too big of a burden/responsibility to put on a boyfriend/husband; just like you wouldn’t tell the wife/gf of a battering alcoholic that she needs to be patient and help her abuser heal. It’s the “you have to put up with my sh*t” expectation that women with these diagnoses and their enabling therapists foist off on unsuspecting husbands/boyfriends and their children that infuriates me the most.

[*DBT, in my estimation, is still the best course of treatment for BPD. It has legitimate research and empirically validated results. However, most DBT practitioners are honest about efficacy and prognosis. Once in treatment, BPD can take up to a decade to treat successfully. "Success" doesn't mean "cure," either. It means the individual manages to get the symptoms under control for greater sustained periods of time.]

I’ve often wondered if the (mostly) female practitioners who have developed these “new highly effective” treatments for BPD actually have BPD themselves. These new therapies seem to be an enabling form of treatment that encourages the partners and family members of BPDs to practice endless patience for their pathology. In my estimation, it’s like telling an inmate how to be a more obedient prisoner.

Unconditional love does not equate to zero accountability. Even a parent who loves his or her child unconditionally sets limits and boundaries and administers consequences for bad or dangerous behaviors.

What Ashley needs to realize is that it’s not the job of the husband/bf to re-parent his wife/gf. If she needs re-parenting, that’s best left to a professional in a safe and structured treatment protocol. Furthermore, many men entered into their relationships hoping for an equal partnership, not to play “daddy who didn’t love me enough” redux.

There’s a fine line between being emotionally supportive of your partner and being her emotional wet nurse. Borderlines, narcissists and histrionics, despite what they say, don’t want emotional support. They want a wet nurse who indulges their every whim, demand and confused and distorted emotions. Thanks, but no thanks.

Thanks again for your response, Paul.

@ Geoff

Thanks for the comment. I agree re: getting out of the relationship and then working on your own issues that attracted you to that kind of woman and relationship.

No comment, re: Old Timer’s comment. I don’t want to be “reset!”

[...] Dr. Tara J. Palmatier says: [...]

The sad fact is that many times, the psychological ‘Professional’ is complicit in the destruction of the relationship. The woman will complain about what the man does wrong, and the psychologist will side with the woman, and encourage her that she has the right to feel ‘neglected, abused, etc’, thereby feeding her victim mentality. These women will also use the psychologist to turn the children against their father. It seems that most of the psychological profession is very much feminist oriented, and will side with the woman no matter what the situation.

I am aghast at all of the similarities between my life and the definitions and story examples given in this story to illustrate the points of abusive women in relationships.

Here is a synopsis of my experiences with my abusive (now) ex-wife. To start off our marriage, I made an incredibly a very bad work decision that impacted both of us badly (NO, not another woman). This was something that exacerbated an already rocky relationship.

Our relationship followed a sad, but apparently not unique pattern with my abusive ex-spouse, complete with her controlling behavior, her inability to see her abusive behavior in herself, and her inability to see her behavior as problematic as she’d read plenty of kitchen table psychology books but did not apply them to herself, withholding affection and sex as a form of punishment, being overly-controlling, nit-picking, nagging, spending all of our money monthly with the explanation of, “Well, if I spend it first, ‘Oh, well…,’” she tells me.

Almost 7 years ago, I was in a bad accident and put myself in a coma for a week and was in the hospital for another 4 1/2 weeks. When I cam out of the hospital, the emotional abuse continued, and with my brain being in the fragile state it was from the traumatic brain injury and subsequent coma, I was much more susceptible to allowing my ex-wife’s abusive remarks and ridiculous behavior towards me penetrate who I believed I was and shaped who I was to become. In counseling, my ex certainly behaved like the person in the story, counselor hopping, co-opting the counselor to her side, and holding tightly to her control in the relationship that I desperately wanted to repair and save.

It was a sad state of affairs, and after of 7 years I furthered the mistake I’d made in my whole relationship with my by looking to her for my happiness by looking outside my marriage (HUGE mistake!), instead of looking into counseling, prayer and inward to find my happiness. I’m still unraveling all of the emotional damage inflicted upon me (and that I allowed).

My advice from personal experience:
1. find a professional counselor you’re able to talk openly with,
2. know what your goal is in going to counseling, how do you want your life to look in the end?
3. become intimately familiar with the public library near you, especially using their services to hold books online. Read about psychology, self-help (boundaries, self-esteem, initiative, influence confidence, philosophy). NOT necessarily professional textbooks, but something more mainstream that is backed by sound science.
4. eat well and sleep well; take care of your health
5. be around happy and supportive people
6. Go to church. Worship with fellow believers. You are important.

Thanks for reading my ramblings. Good luck.

My wife and I went to couple’s counseling and the woman counselor was determined that I was the problem. My wife recognized that she had singled me out without regard to the earnest openness that my wife herself had shown in discussing her faults. The counselor lightly considered her faults but was keen on mine. It was insulting. We did not stay there long because my wife recognized that she could not get the help that she was there to receive.

One last comment: my wife rides the high horse that she never has cussed at me nor has she hit me in an argument. She has worn me down and ruined damn near everything that I have ever tried to do for her and when I confront her about that– long before I ever raise my voice she is evasive and willfully blind to what she is doing. So when the anger does escalate, then she gets moral on me and that becomes the issue, never mind her original provocation or her ignoring my plea for her to stop what she is doing.

Is it just me or is this abusive? An antagonist who antagonizes and then pleads ignorant to what she does. As I confront her about it, she justifies everything or pleads that she doesn’t know what I’m talking about further aggravating me about what she originally did. She is the type of woman to continually run her mouth until she FINDS something to piss me off about, escalating me to outrageous behavior. When I react with outrageous behavior, then I become the “abuser.” That’s sabotage! Am I wrong?

PT,

I feel your pain. I think that your partner and my ex are cut from the same cloth. My situation, like your involved a perpetually emotionally abusive partner, but I allowed myself to fall deeply into a co-dependent state that didn’t serve me well.

We went the counselor route. Ex-wife didn’t want to heal our marriage, she simply wanted 3rd party validation or her already cemented and ridiculously absurd opinion of me that would fuel her to getting our divorce. She got her 3rd party validation from telling stories to others, including the counselor, that I was soooo abusive.

Was I? NO! Did I get pissed on occasion because of narcissistic behavior durin our 7+ years of her pissy, selfish, self-centered and self-absorbed behavior? I did. Did I ever raise a hand to her. Never. I wanted to desperately make my marriage work with her, but, as I said, I ended up spiraling into a pit marital quick sand that sucked the life out of me and my marriage.

What have I learned from my wild marital ride? I learned that our partners can be emotional ninja assassins, knowing exactly where, when and how to strike to keep us off balance, giving them a feeling of superiority in the relationship and leaving you with the moniker of Mr. Inferiority. After we split, I learned to take my power back and take her barbs in stride. The example I lived is this: Ex-wife was ranting at me in front of our 2 small children, and since I’d already planned out (key!) how I’d respond to her idiocy, I looked at her, sighed deeply and said to her, “Wow! You’re really angry aren’t you?” My look and tone were assertive and masculine, but not aggressive. She just looked at me flabbergasted and stomped off. I’ve had to use a similar style rarely since then, but sheesh, I sure wish I’d done some work on and for myself long before we divorced.

It may have made a difference, really depends on the couple, but it’s worth a try. You don’t know what what you don’t know. The emotional cost of divorce is catastrophic. I am able to say that I did everything I could think of to put us in a position to reconcile, but ex wasn’t willing. I do have a clear conscience because of my efforts. I kept at my efforts to reconcile for 3 1/2 after we split. I don’t regret it. Definitely a growing process for me.

I learned that even if I don’t know the answers to improve myself and hopefully save my relationship/marriage, someone does. Sometimes an unwilling spouse/partner needs to see a new and improved you, and you need to see a new and improved you as well. Remember, your spouse/partner will only change when they come to the realization that a behavior is a problem, and even then, they’ll need the will to make the positive change for themselves, and hopefully you (and your children, if you have any).

Since someone in the world knows the self-improvement and marriage/relationship improvement information you seek, it’s imperative that you search tirelessly for answers from those who know more than you do. I have some resources I’d recommend, so if you’d like, send me a message. Not knowing is not a bad thing. Not putting forth the effort to seek answers to eliminate behaviors and decisions of yours that no longer serve you.

Thanks for reading my rambling. Hppefully this rant is more grammatically correct than my last one.

Thanks, Torrez. Please send links to the resources that you were alluding to.

Some people refuse to recognize the effects of their behavior on others until you do it back to them… and sometimes not even then. The problem that arises from having to teach a spouse a lesson is that you have to become the aggressor– and then you are vilified for it. Speaking to her didn’t work… nor did writing letters, pleading, yelling, etc. So as the desperation grows, the anger level escalates. Again, you are vilified for getting so angry– but she refused to see what she was doing all along the way that you were trying to explain it. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Worse yet, if the behavior is intolerable and she doesn’t want to see anything wrong with it, do you just start to tolerate it to keep peace?

As a man, if you cry out to others, you are perceived as weaker. If you get aggressive, then you are an “abuser.” Yet, in all of this, her behavior is an atrocity! And no one seems to be coming to her to say, “knock it off” except you– but she won’t hear you.

This is my situation. Now that I am spiritually, emotionally, financially, and physically exhausted… now what? Asking doesn’t work… Pleading doesn’t… at the point that I can not take any more, what then?

The key difference between me and you, Torrez, is that I have gotten aggressive. Maybe you are on a higher moral plane than am I… most people are very quick to label me an “abuser.” No one cares about the underlying issue nor any of the attempts to resolve it before it ever escalated. All that matters is that I am perceived as lacking virtue because I got aggressive. I am automatically guilty because I got aggressive.

The irony in all of this is that I have never denied that I got aggressive to any of the people that I have consulted about my marriage problems. To those who know me, and not merely through my pseudonym online, to whom I have disclosed these problems, I confessed honestly that I got aggressive! Why am I still the villain?

You suggested in your text that she may need to see the new and improved me. Honestly, I agree in that, separation will bring the weight of life that I am currently shielding her from squarely down onto her. It is very easy to be an obnoxious “armchair quarterback” and something completely different when you actually suffer the hits on the field. Through a separation alone, she should see me in a different light.

I pause. Thank you for your comments, Torrez.

Hello, dear friend,

First and foremost, you need to acknowledge the full extent of the damage to your sense of self-worth and self-esteem. You need to recapture both, by affirming your worth as a man, just as you are, and strive to move forward and improve yourself and your life in every aspect of your life, whether you are where you think you need to be are whether you believe improvement. Either way, I believe if you aren’t moving forward, you’re sliding backward. It’s up to you, my friend. If you and your marriage aren’t where you want to be, do something about it. This is NOT punishment time. critical to remember, this is NOT punishment time. Your in marriage and self saving time.

You made a comment in your post about me being on a higher moral plane. Please stop comparing yourself to anyone. That will simply lead you to feel poorly about yourself unnecessarily. Figure out where you are today (pencil and paper to log), your end destination (or at least close to your goal), and begin digesting information to successfully make that journey as quickly as possible. It is critical that you congratulate yourself along the way, instead of ONLY waiting to congratulate yourself at the END of your personal masculine journey. Waiting will discourage you by focusing only on the end result as worthy of praise.

Your job right now, should you choose to undertake it, is to work on and improve YOU! You two are married, yes? She found you attractive before, yes? Desirable even? THAT’s your goal. Show her THAT guy! I know my issue was my thinking of, “WTH, I didn’t follow a playbook to attract and marry her. I have NO clue!” I was both desperate and exasperated. Plus, as I said, I truly had NO clue. FF a bit. I was so unhappy, I had an affair to try to feel better about myself and my marriage. How stupid was that? Whatever you do, don’t do THAT! I’ve said all along, if I had it to do all over again, I’d have ‘manned’ up and done all of my marriage saving work BEFORE my affair, and then, if after all of my efforts nothing changed, I’d have exited, like an adult, with my character, honor and integrity intact. Be truthful, no matter how scary telling the truth may be. The truth and honesty will always serve you well. Lying, deception and dishonesty won’t. You’ll be happier with yourself in the long run wearing a cloak of truth.

Again, your job is to ‘fix’ you. If you could climb outside of yourself and see an incredibly attractive and desirable you, what would you see? Please focus on you, not on your wife and what you think SHE needs to recognize and fix. Right now, you’re fixing your marriage alone. Recognize that. Become resigned to that. Get materials to read and listen to. Start digesting. Find material in the public library and on the internet. Lots of no cost or low cost information you need to improve you, and hopefully your marriage. Learn with an open mind. NO judgment. Use what resonates with you. Discard what doesn’t. Be OPEN! You don’t know what you don’t know. Never having tried something before doesn’t mean that it won’t work for you and your wife. And remember..you’re still her husband. Use this time wisely. Use this time well. Use this time urgently.

Teach yourself new skills. Don’t try to teach your wife anything, except through YOU modeling your new behavior…the new you. NEVER be the aggressor (I hope you’re not talking about physical violence. If you are. STOP NOW! Be a better you.). EVER! She can call the police and have you arrested for domestic violence simply because she felt threatened. Stand STILL. Breath deep instead. THINK. Gather your senses. Ask her if she is going to leave. If not, gather some stuff to leave. Go to a family member or friend’s place and let the boiling cauldron of your home life settle and cool. You’ll be able to gauge when you’ll be able to come back without the tension in the air. Let her know how to reach you.

Stop pleading, writing letters, yelling. Be a man. A note or card on occasion is good. On occasion. Spend time envisioning your behavior as you want it to be. I’m not talking about your wife’s behavior. I’m talking about yours. If she has destructive patters that play out regularly, all the better. Play out your calm, cool and collected responses in your head and you’ll be amazed how everything will slow down in the heat of ‘battle’, and with your deep breathing, practice and clear thinking, you’ll get through the fire of the fury much better. Remember, just be the better you. No teaching. No getting her to recognize anything. No punishment. Just let her experience the new you. Calm, cool, confident, assertive, loving, masculine. She may not say anything, but she’ll be thinking. All conversation is circular in nature, and YOU are changing the dynamic through your input; your refusal to be baited into a confrontation.

If you worship at a church, go THERE for support. I’m Christian. If you don’t go anywhere for regular worship, try out some local churches. People will greet you and answer questions. Christian churches/fellowship are the body of Christ. They’d all be luck to have you attend and offer yourself to the congregation. You’ll not be judged here. If a Christian church won’t work for you, find one that will. Try some out ’til you find one that works for you. All have studies and groups to help people in similar situations. You are not alone. Support and stability is what you need, especially now. Invite your wife along to church (not to a support group with you; others will be available to and for her). If she doesn’t want to accompany you, ask a friend or attend alone.

Do you, your wife, or both of you have an addiction issue? If either or both of you do, get that addressed first. If you don’t, good. If by being aggressive, you meant ANY form of violence (physical, emotional, mental and/or sexual), stop it now. Violence also includes intimidation, blocking someone’s path, breaking things around the other person….). What you’ve done is the past is done. It’s great that you’ve owned up to your past doings, but stop it now. By stopping, you can now honestly say that you are not an aggressor. You can say, “I used to…. You can say, “In the past….” You can say, “I don’t react like that anymore. I think and respond much differently.” ALL of that will be true. That change will bolster your self-confidence and self-esteem, starting you down the path to your desired, visible masculinity.

Now, with all of my rambling, here are some material I’ve used. I list them in my order of preference. If you don’t read, start to learn to like to read. You need this material to improve yourself, your marriage and your life.

1. The Bible. Nothing else need be said. God is Truth. Turn towards Truth and you turn towards our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. If you’re Christian, call the office and get some direction in starting out. Lots of information online.

2. The Power of Positive Thinking – Dr. Norman Vincent Peale. Classic. Change your mind, your — will follow.

3. David Cunninghams’s FREE daily email subscription. He sells e-book material that is absolutely outstanding. http://www.makingherhappy.com His “The Man’s Guide to a Great Relationship and Marriage” is awesome.

4. Secrets of a Passionate Marriage – Dr. David Schnarch Wise doctor. Great information. Available on audi, too.

5. Psycho~Cybernetics – Dr. Maxwell Maltz, will help you to think and believe differently. Superb. Available on audio, too.

6. Divorce Busting (website) – Michelle Weiner-Davis. http://www.divorcebusting.com EXCELLENT! On line community board. Lots of supportive people. You pick of group of people in similar circumstances.

7. David Shade – http://www.MasterfulLover.com FREE newsletter. Sells great material. Beneficial for you and your wife.

8. How to Win Friends and Influence People – Dale Carnegie Classic. Great informaton. Classic. Fabulous tool. Improve people skills

9. Lead the Field – Earl Nightingale, Classic, improve you attitude

10. Think and Grow Rich – Napoleon Hill, Classic, improve your attitude

Lots of classic readings. You’ll find most if not all at the library. The internet stuff you’ll find easily. As I said, become friends with your local library. Try to whittle down what you’ve been doing to the bare minimum and take in this information. Again, I numbered them according to my order of importance. You may order your preferences differently.

PT, my best wishes to you. Post less, read more. Now is the time to use your time wisely in terms of cultivating your gift to you. No matter what happens, you’ll planthe new you, install the main plumbing line, lay the foundations of the new you on tops, then frame yourself with your studs of wants, needs and desires, roof yourself to keep out the elements, install the siding, install electrical and hang the drywall, finishing up with a flurry of fit and finish items. THAT is how you’re going to build the new you, except right over the top of the old you, reusing what’s worked for you and replacing what hasn’t. Remember, you’re on the most important mission of your life, rebuilding a you that will work for you instead of against you.

With that long post, I glossed over the main point of my post. YOU are working on you and changing your behavior for you benefit and the benefit of all those in your life. You are NOT trying to change her or teach her lessons. You are simply taking yourself from where you are to where you want to be, which will most likely trigger her attraction switches. With her attraction switches flipped, who knows what will happen, but during all of this time, you will be rebuilding yourself to the best PT you already have within you. The challenge is on, to reveal the new you to your wife and the world. The work you’ll be doing on yourself is your gift to the world. Best wishes, PT.

Thank you, Torrez. Much appreciated.

PT,
What’s up? Have you taken a break from posting to work on improving and polishing yourself? How is everything going with you and your wife? I hope well. You both deserve to be with a spouse to which you are ridiculously attracted and deliriously happy.

Let me know what’s going on, brother.

If the counseling program is through a state or local domestic violence program, it’s all your (the male’s) fault. You don’t have to say one word. In fact, you don’t even have to show up! Isn’t this a violation of professional ethics? Is there a procedure to file formal complaints for this type of negligence?

I second what Richard says. In California anyway, an aggressor is going to be in a load of trouble if the other partner places a call to the sheriff or the police. I went to a Violence Prevention because my (now ex)-wife told our female counselor that I was violent. This was after darn near killing myself on a snowboard and having reached my own level of self awareness and restraint

I NEVER laid a hand on my ex-wife and she made things incredibly ugly and trying, but, what I’ve learned is that preventing a person from leaving, preventing a person from reaching the phone (to dial for help), breaking the telephone or telephone cord, blocking a person from leaving, not leaving when you’re asked to do so, threatening the other person with harm, breaking items around the other person.

Our female counselor, who my ex-wife co-opted to her side (which I didn’t really see at the time because I was too busy being hopeful and trying to save my marriage), decided that based on my ex-wife’s characterization of my behavior that I needed to attend Manalive, a violence prevention program that lasted one year. Manalive describes violence to include physical, verbal, psychological and sexual, with verbal and psychological being the worst. While I agree with their definition, they and everything I’ve read, all agree that men are the perpetrators of violence, and the most chosen victim of our violence is our family and loved ones.

Since I had done so much reading and attended Manalive, I was hyper-vigilant about leaving ex-wife’s home whenever she’d be upset and asked or whenever I saw her escalating her agitation and anger from talking to me and not getting my agreement on whatever she was asking for. The last thing I wanted was to be arrested for, any reason, in her home and have her file a restraining order against me which would severely limit my ability my ability to be with our children (now ages 4 and 9).

As Richard said, (primarily) us men need to be hyper-vigilant in behaving extremely well when visiting our partners because our partner can open up a can of whoop-*$$ on us by simply saying that we were threatening or wouldn’t leave or any other supposed deeds of being a menacing jerk. Whether we did any of what our partner says is irrelevant. If the person calling the police says we men did it, then we did. They’ll try to sort out the stuff, but ultimately they’re peace officers and will keep the peace by removing you until cooler heads prevail.

Sooo……… cover your backside, especially when dealing with an emotionally abusive partner. I’m still rebuilding my self-esteem from the abuse I allowed to continue in the name of saving my marriage, and sadly, I entered into a wonderful relationship with a wonderful woman who told me that I wasn’t done with my ex-wife yet. I know I am done with her, I’m just not finished up putting my self-esteem, self-confidence and self-worth back together and THAT bled out of my pours in unintended ways, and my girl saw that messed up programming plain as day.

It takes time to repair our psyches, our broken hearts, our emotional turmoil, our long-conditioned responses to the simplest interaction because often those simplest of interactions bring back horrific memories of deling with our partner and it’s tough to think and respond rather than react to your memories of the disasters of the past.

Good luck all, men and women. I speak from the male perspective because I’m a man. Women, you’ll be able to use much of what I wrote today and previously by simply inserting yourself into my role.
Best wishes.

Hey Torrez,

I gotta be honest with you: while this site brings to the forefront very legitimate grievances in the gender wars from a male perspective, some of the posts border on female bashing. I vented about a particular grievance and I do appreciate your feedback. (My comments here are not an indictment against you.) The contents of this site tend to remind me of The Little Rascals’ “He-man Womun Haters Club.” I feel that I have joined (temporarily) into the chorus of voices that smash every minute fault of women in our society.

I admit, it felt good to read and see that others share many of my same concerns, but I do not find this site to be balanced. I appreciated your comments concerning my specific situation. However, much of the content on the site seems heavy-handed at highlighting legitimate problems, but not in a way that could be winsome to the women causing these problems. Just as I find women’s sites that are heavily skewed against masculinity to be offensive, I do not want to harp on women’s faults either. I recognize that I allowed myself to join this chorus during an emotionally charged time in my life.

Since then, I have pulled away from this site. I wanted to address your comment, but will find dialogue and reading material on the same topic elsewhere. We have to be able to address our legit grievances between the genders without it becoming the decimation of the other. Thanks.

PT,

I hear what you are saying, my friend. Men bashing women and/or women bashing men is counter-productive, and more to the point flat out detrimental to any relationship that has any hope at all of reconciling. Personally, I tried for 3.5 years to reconcile my relationship w/ my now ex-wife, which included almost 2 years after our divorce was final. In the end, I was finally able to see that my effort was myopic. More than wanting to reconcile a badly troubled marriage, I wanted to control the OUTCOME of my efforts. Shame on me.

On the upside, I learned a great deal about myself and my ex, who is going to be a part of my life for the foreseeable future, as we have two small children together. I learned to stop allowing myself to be manipulated in our relationship. I came to realize that I TAUGHT my ex how to treat me; what is acceptable to me from her. For that, I owe ex-wife a debt of gratitude. Although, being honest with myself, I was and am badly hurt/damaged in our relationship, I contributed a large part of that hurt/damage by not getting outside of myself and by not removing my blinders.

Although men are not all the same, we are more alike than dissimilar. By the same token, women are more alike than dissimilar. What does that mean for you? It means that you are more intimately familiar with you, your wife and your situation than you can ever possibly adequately convey to a different person. YOU know more about your past and present with you wife. You’ll know, in your gut, which ‘advice’ to put to use and which to discard.

I agree with you, bashing your wife/husband/partner is fruitless, even if you just want out. He/she is a valuable person, worthy of our love and kindness. If we can’t do that, then we should exit the relationship with as little damage as possible. We need to exhaust ourselves in trying EVERYTHING to reconcile relationship, and after do ing all we-re able to see and do and it sadly becomes evident that no other alternative exist, we need to exit our relationship with our character strong and evident in all we do, our dignity intact by standing tall and proud and integrity beaming beaming for all the world to see. Our thoughts become our words. Our words our actions. Our actions become our habits. Our habits become our character. Our character becomes our becomes our destiny.

Above all else, be true to yourself and make sure your goals align with what you truly want and need, for yourself and for your wife. If you don’t already know the answer to the issues in your marriage, keep looking. Your relationship issue isn’t unique to mankind. The answer exists. Exhaust yourself in finding it/them. And lastly, and most importantly, live in; truth to yourself and truth to others. Protect your self-esteem. Live with integrity. Act from your solid character. Live in truth. If you are a man of faith, seek intervention on your, your wife’s and your marriage’s behalf.

My best to you, PT. You aren’t the problem. Your wife isn’t the problem. the circular DYNAMICS between the two of you ARE the problem. The great news is that neither one of you are bad people and marriage dynamics are absolutely fixable. If you don’t already know, from her perspective, what the marital issues are, ASK; then talk about them. You want to be working on the correct issues, not just what you ‘think’ the issues are. You need to get/stay on board, in terms of reconciling your marriage. Find the answers to the marital problems and do what you can to fix those issues on your own. Show your wife a ‘new’ you; learning, trying, changing. Most likely she’ll join you. Sadly, though, as in my case, some won’t.

Best wishes to you and your wife, PT.

To all:

I had no doubt that when I invited Dr. Palmatier to present her work at MND that due the exacting and incisive nature of her commentary that it would lead to some healthy friction during interpretation.

As an editor, I like that friction, even as I agree with readers that there is always a danger of dancing a little too close to the inappropriate.

But that dance serves as a reminder of some really important social issues that affect us in some very severe ways. It sometimes gives us a choice of risking the appearance of gender bashing, which is usually ill considered, vs the very real danger of PC control.

That should not lead us away from the realities that make this site and others like it a necessity.

There are problems with both men and women in modern culture. We can wax PC around that reality all day long and it won’t change the fact that those problems exist.

Addressing those things honestly, directly and with integrity will never be construed as bashing from the editors chair as long as I am here. I am quite impressed actually, with Dr. Palmatier, our other contributors and the great majority of our readers who comment because they consistently walk an elegant line along the intellectual border that separates legitimate concerns from gratuitous attacks.

My hat is off to everyone here, and I look forward to more of these healthy exchanges in the future.

Thank you. Dr. Palmatier’s lucid, insightful and provocative writing was a breath of fresh air, and the topic grabbed my attention, along with PT’s story. I greatly enjoyed the diatribe amongst your readers, and this topic obviously struck a chord with me, as I felt compelled to shave my experiences, thoughts, encouragement and newly gathered knowledge.

I hope you have Dr. Palmatier writing again soon. She’s very talented and thought provoking. Thank you, Dr. Palmatier

My wife refuses to go to counselling because there is nothing in it for her. She has had her way on every issue, and received every sacrifice, and now there is nothing left that she needs, so I don’t exist. Really, why would she do otherwise?

Dan, I read the thread of comments and didn’t find any more information from you about you, your wife or how long you’ve been married. Either way, though, I’m no doctor. I can only tell you which paths I took and the result of my decisions. For now, let me drive in the dark with not headlights with you.

1. Your wife refuses to go to counseling, because there’s nothing in it for her and she’s had her way on every issue and received every sacrifice. RESPONSE: Taking you at your word, it seems that somewhere along the way, you gave up the marital power struggle and acquiesced to her. It also seems, from your short post, that your marriage has morphed into a very sad-codependent relationship with you continuing to pull the short straw. If you don’t know how to right this errant marital ship, others know how to do it. You simply have to take it upon yourself to figure out what you don’t know and then learn it THIS needs to be your new hobby, above all others, besides worshipping your God.

Your marriage isn’t going to fix itself. YOU are the captain of your marital ship. YOU have to steer the two of you into safe waters OR into a harbor. Regardless of what your marriage is like today, your wife married you because she believed you were always going to act like a man and lead (not boss) her to a blissful married life. When you put your xxxx in a jar and allowed them to be prominently displayed in the home, she lost respect for you and continues to lose respect for you every time she gets her way just because she can. YOU’ve taught her how to treat you, for whatever reason. You continue to reinforce to her that her treatment of you is not only acceptable, it’s what you want and will tolerate, as evidenced by your continued presence. Dan, I’m not judging you. My efforts failed. I failed because I committed the cardinal sin of marriages and committed relationships AND more importantly because I didn’t do anything about the state of my marriage while it was still a marriage.

Your wife doesn’t want a divorce. She didn’t marry you to get one. She wouldn’t want to change things right now, you’re correct. She as it all HER way. My guess is, though, that she’s much more interested in having Dan, the attraction tripping, man in her life lighting her fire and being the man she initially met, grew to love and agreed to marry. Don’t forget that fact, Dan. If you anything like me, you’re saying to yourself, “I wasn’t following any playbook to attract her to me. I was just being me.” And after that thought, you’ll quickly delve deep into your memories and truly come up blank on exactly your were doing to “just be you.” Look at yourself and admit that, then, get cracking on finding what it means to be a man’s man, to be masculine, to be a gentleman, to be interesting, to have a life, to have aspirations, to have hobbies, to have friends….

Read my post below to PT. Lots of resources available to any man who’s lost his way.I would start with David Cunninghams’s emails and ebook information. Awesome. Most importantly, you ARE still married and YOU have a beautiful opportunity to change YOU and change your marriage for the better for both of you. And YOU, a successful, happy marriage and her happiness are what’s in counseling for her. YOU. Happy marriage. Happiness. That’s it. Just little stuff (sarcasm). Your in the game to turn around and save your marriage at the right time. You’re the leading man in the movie, Dan, not a bit player. Write your own lines and win an Oscar.

2. She married you. She needs a successful, happy marriage and happiness for herself, to boot. Dan, my brother, you DO exist. You are important. If self-esteem is your issue to even get started, then make an appointment with a counselor who shares your desire to mend you psyche and to reconcile marriage. You NEED a counselor who can and will commit to being on your time. Getting your self-esteem bolstered will give you the moxy to stand up to your wife in a calm, cool, assertive, masculine, leadership way and start pulling on the tug of war for an equitable, loving and respectful partnership that you both will fight for and be proud of.

Dan, good luck to you, my brother. Remember, YOU will be working on YOU, not her. Be a better man, in every way, and show that better man to her calmly and strongly. She’ll gravitate towards you. This work that you’ll be doing on you is you gift to you. Don’t do it secretly. If she asks, tell her that you’re just working on improving yourself to be a better man and a better husband. PERIOD. Then go back to reading. The David Cunningham material, David encourages you to involve your wife in the process to improve the marriage. Win-win.

Dan,,

Three helpful books that you might find useful to better understand your wife (and your and her relationship with your children, should U have any children):

(1) Why Is It Always About You? – The Seven Deadly Sins of Narcissism [Sandy Hotchkiss, LCSW];

(2) Emotional Blackmail – When the People in Your Life Use Fear, Obligation, and Guilt to Manipulate You [Susan Forward, Ph.D.];

(3) Children of the Self-Absorbed – A Grownup’s Guide to Getting Over Narcissistic Parents [Nina W. Brown, Ed.D., L.P.C.]

Good luck, brother. Reading is your friend, your treasure map to a better you, your path to a happy, fulfilling marriage and an all-around better life for YOU. Go get it, Dan. Only you can do this for you. And, lest I forget, if you are so inclined, pray for clarity and resolve to do what you learn is right.