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‘Scared’ of Same-Sex Marriage, or Better Informed?

2010-08-08
By

Robert Bentley asks Why Are Old School Conservatives Scared of Gay Marriage? Mr. Bentley established and opines regularly in the libertarian leaning blog Conservative for Change, to which I also contribute.

His view is given away by the article’s title. Young, open-minded libertarians should cast aside the cowardly bigotry of grumpy old logically-challenged conservatives. He asserts that all American humans have a Constitutional right to marriage and homosexuals are human; therefore, acceptance of same-sex marriage is Constitutionally required. To say otherwise is to deny homosexuals their humanity.

Simple as that, and don’t worry about how much this seems to be eerily reminiscent of far left progressive thought on the topic. Should we still concern ourselves with historical connections, like the oddly similar condemnation of the relics of bourgeois prejudice by Communist Party members in The Russian Effort to Abolish Marriage (1926)?

If we are not merely to assume that ancient leftists were just as stupid as old American conservatives and merely tripped across an enlightened, modern, libertarian idea by accident, perhaps we might wonder if there is something deeper here. Sure enough, there is, and it’s my view that young, open-minded libertarians should not be afraid to join older, more experienced soldiers in the eternal struggle for liberty, even if it means daring to take the risk of being labeled an old school conservative.

Let me anchor my perspective a little more before leading you to the main point. First, I would describe myself as politically conservative. I am as capable of becoming irritated by social and even fiscal conservatives as anyone, for, like progressives, they are easily led from the path of freedom by their causes. Both American political conservatism and libertarianism have their roots in classic liberalism. To assure you that I am not merely defending my generation of old Alzheimer patients, let me pay homage to a classic liberal and soldier of freedom from the more distant past. John Stuart Mill, who philosophically justified individual freedom over state control, observed:

“It would be absurd to pretend that people ought to live as if nothing whatever had been known in the world before they came into it; as if experience had as yet done nothing towards showing that one mode of existence, or of conduct, is preferable to another.”

My concern as a political conservative however, has little to do with individual choices regarding one’s own mode of existence or conduct. I do not see my perspective as being in conflict with Robert Bentley’s general libertarian ideology; that “people should be able to live their lives as they see fit and not have interference from others, unless it harms others around them.” It all comes down to facts.

The problem with the typical public discussions on this topic, characterized in Mr. Bentley’s remarks along with those of many others, is that they mischaracterize the change in the relationship between people and the state brought about by the redefinition of marriage. Traditional marriage has been abolished in the United States, along with the Constitutionally based individual rights (i.e. fundamental civil rights) that accompanied it.

In the formal, legal sense, marriage is no longer considered a sacred private institution deserving the strictest protection against arbitrary government intrusion. In P.O.P.S. v. GARDNER (1993), the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals (from the left coast, the most radical anti-Constitution, most frequently overturned federal court in the nation) reclassified marriage and family law from civil law to social policy. Few people recognize the profound difference that makes, and the leftstream media was too busy promoting the causes that led to the change to take notice.

Civil law involves the messy business of attempting to sort out private matters within the Constitutional limits of government power. It is part of what defines classic liberal government and is essential to maintenance of Constitutional rule. That we have civil rights in fact, depends on restraint by courts to avoid arbitrary rulings. Civil law is a place where the new age libertarian philosophy that people should be able to live their lives as they see fit and not have interference from others, unless it harms others around them has traditionally met with the real world.

From a Constitutional perspective, with specific concern for the power of government and civil rights, social policy is much the same as economic policy. While economic policy traditionally referred to fiscal policy (taxes, prime interest rate, money supply), social policy lies at the more recently developed socialist end of government activity, involving the redistribution of wealth through a system of entitlements (i.e. the “welfare system”). There are no Constitutional limits whatsoever that restrain political manipulation of social policy. If you don’t like current or proposed tax or entitlement rates, you can only vote for someone whose ideas you like better. Your Constitutional right is limited to equal treatment under existing laws.

If marriage and family are no longer legally respected in the framework of a sacred private institution, what are they? They have been absorbed into the welfare system where they are defined as elements in government programs, subject to arbitrary political manipulation. Under the current definition, marriage could be completely abolished. Children could be taken from parents and sent to separate camps to be raised by government care-takers. If you don’t like those ideas, be sure to vote for people who have more traditional ideas about how marriage and family should be treated, because you currently have no rights to stop a majority in power that would change it. (You really do need to think carefully about the issue of adoption by same-sex partners and note carefully the consistent argument that children are better off being raised by homosexuals than by their nasty old natural parents.)

The facts do not seem to allow a way to reach Robert Bentley’s perspective. It presumes that homosexuals are being granted rights traditionally reserved for opposite sex couples. They are not. Now none of us has legal access to traditional marriage and the fundamental rights that accompanied it. The humanity of homosexuals has not been recognized by this change. Instead, everyone’s humanity is being systematically denied. I think young, idealistic libertarians like Robert Bentley need to give this issue a second hearing. Although I can’t speak for all old school conservatives, at least some of us might have already developed a more complete understanding.

On a more general note, marriage and family have been placed in the bin of federal social and economic policies based on over-reaching interpretation of the Commerce Clause. As long as federal courts are willing and can get away with arbitrarily reclassifying other areas of law into social and economic policy, allowing this treatment, the Constitution is not actually in effect. The P.O.P.S. case, and the Supreme Court’s refusal to review the ruling, played a critical role in the downfall of Constitutional rule. Related on the subject of the change in marital law and the downfall of the Constitution (along with many of my other articles at the same site): Are Americans Paying Taxes to Organized Crime Syndicates?.

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Didn't make Oprah's Book Club. And Ronnie doesn't care. Man up. Buy the book now on Amazon.com. Or listen to Ronnie tell a story at escaping-from-reality.com.


  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/rogerfgay/ Roger F. Gay

    … social and even fiscal conservatives …, like progressives, … are easily led from the path of freedom by their causes.

    That btw, is also the main reason that traditional American civics needs to be taught in schools again.

  • Roger F. Gay

    Having mentioned the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in my article, I thought I should post this.

    Article: County plunges into California marriage battle

    The arguments soon will be lining up in a federal appeals court over the voter-approved Proposition 8 in California – which restricted marriage to one man and one woman – and now one government in the state has weighed in to support the voters’ will.

    Imperial County is “the first, and will probably be the only, governmental entity to file an appeal with the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals” in the case, according to Advocates for Faith and Freedom, which is representing the county.

  • Denis

    Alice-

    I liked your post.

    One thing the other side is always counting on is the silence of men. If anyone says anything remotely sounding sexist, racist, or homophobic, they will get a strong and immediate response. Men, and especially White men, are always counted on to take whatever is thrown at them. They are so terrified of being labeled sexist, racist, and homophobic that the expectation is always fulfilled. Silence. They know that they can attack men and they will do nothing at all because this is how it has always been. If and when men get over their fear of the name calling and start to go on the offensive against evey injustice against them the other side will be shell-shocked. That’s because it has never happened before. I hope I live to see the day where men as a group start going on the attack.

  • Alice

    Hi, all!!!
    I just wanted to say how brave you all are!!! It’s so true that when you talk about these things away from the liberal position you get called a bigot. And people try to say that gay marriage rights are the same as civil rights for blacks.

    I for one am SICK AND TIRED of other groups namely feminism and people in favor of “gay rights” trying to piggy back off black civil rights movement (which in itself I am learning was somewhat misleading). Please note that anytime such these issues come up govts get bigger and more intrusive not smaller.

    Yes, I definitely agree with that gay rights and feminism are one and the same. For example, feminists come in and say childhood oppresses women so we must abolish it (Shulamith Firestone, Dialectic of Sex). Then Harry Hay NAMBLA and frieds say oh yes that’s true now let me have sex with little kids.

    Feminist repeatedly say that (Greer, Steinem, etc and ad nauseam) that gender and gender roles are oppressive therefore we must abolish them. Gay rights activists say yes yes that’s true we’re people not genders or sexes therefore anybody should be able to marry anybody. Don’t believe me? Read Lesbian Nation by the mentally unstable Jill Johnston. Even Jill admits that all civil rights movements are essentially the same.

    In college, or as I like to call them Adult Reeducation Centers (mostly referring to the humanities) they teach that one good thing abt homosexuality is that partners mirror each other instead of complimenting each other as would be in a traditional male/female relationships. Oh how wonderful.

    I also learned in school that androgyny is the way to go. In other words dont be to masculine or feminine. Once again, how wonderful.

    In my ARC they say that anything is a family. Family is no longer a HUSBAND a WIFE and their biological kids, it’s anything under the sun. (I’m sure part of the reason for the teaching is the number of single parent/female run households who need occasional reassurance lest feel guilty.) There is also a move away from the belief that males raised by females suffer harm. Let’s forget that after WW2 some people say men became more effeminate b/c fathers were absent. Therefore, it’s ok for a woman to raise a boy on her own. Therefore, it wont’ hurt a boy’s masculinity being raised by two women. There’s a book called Zack’s Story abt a boy raised by lesbians. The boy even just looks effeminate.

    And if this goes through we now have the situation where someone can call X a sexual orientation and have the right to marry, even though the couple has 0 biological chance of children. Now it’ll be can I marry my pet/my robot etc. I’m not joking, some people are already calling their bestiality tendencies an “orientation.” Not to mention there are now men who have love dolls rather than wives or gfs. Alice Bailey said we need encourage homosexuality and even bestiality as an attack on Christian values. I kid you not.

    Christians need to be alarmed. (Let’s ignore the fact that the rainbow has been associated with Lucifer, and that the Thaumaturgical circle (triangle in the circle, without circle powers are released) has been used to conjour up demons.) This is one of the greatest threats to religious freedom. ‘Hope you dont mind your kids watching Ellen and Mandy or Roger and Bill make out in front of them. Hope you dont mind your kids going to school and ready about gay penguins and gay princes. Dont give them a bible tract b/c that’s harassment and you could get in trouble. I think there is an AGENDA to shove homosexuality down the throats of Americans whether they on the whole like it or not.

    Notice that the Cali ruling came just in time that monstrosity Kagan’s confirmation. VOMIT.

    The courts, Playboy Foundation and Feminists have already turned marriage into just a piece of paper with their fight for no fault divorce and discriminating custody laws. I fear that families will become even less stable in the future.

  • Roger F. Gay

    That was poignant, Kris. I think we’ve all had enough of aggressive professional “special cases” being generally in-yer-face rude and acting like bullies, obsessively destroying the culture for everyone else, while claiming to be oppressed Hollywood-style stereotypical victims whose “rights” are being denied. When guys with beards are crashing churches wearing wedding dresses after their gang played the corruption game successfully enough to have traditional marriage banned, it’s not backwards to notice you’re being had. When they claim government should stay out of their bedrooms, someone needs to remind them where their bedrooms are.

  • http://www.myspace.com/cornerthought Kris W

    My only beef with gay marriage is literature I read from gay rights activist’s after California originally allowed gay marriages. There intent was to use the legal recognition in a war against religion; to force religions to change their position on homosexuality by using the courts to go after Church’s tax exempt status.

    And also the intent of homosexuals to use the new found recognition to shove and try to, force homosexual indoctrination(see liberals teaching “gay is good” and other garbage to school children).

    I for one am very conservative in social appearance, what people do in a private setting or their own home is none of business nor anyone else’s though. But what is done in public is the general public’s business regardless of what some may say or think. Because appearances matter, like it or not(scientific studies showed that most people feel better after a shower, extrapolate from there).

    I really don’t want to(nor should I have to) see Tom and Steve making out when I go to the movies or a shopping center; nor do I want to see Dave and Jill getting “jiggy with it” either in public. I feel as though most of my fellow Americans have no shame, no consideration, in general no empathy towards others at all(it is natural for heterosexuals to feel revulsion at displays of homosexuality as I suspect it is natural for homosexuals to feel revulsion at heterosexual displays, and there is something called modesty, which I feel is highly undervalued in our society).

    And Homosexual rights activist’s being aligned with feminism, marxism and communism won’t exactly earn them any bonus points either.

    If some people thin my views are backwards or oppressive, tough. Not everyone wants to live in a nudist colony. Now what does that have to do with my reply? Everything.

  • Roger F. Gay

    LanceSmith: I take it you didn’t bother reading the whole article. BTW: Sweden is one of the states that requires churches and individual priests to perform ceremonies for same-sex couples, under penalty of law.

  • LanceSmith

    One of the greatest hypocrisies of the Tea Party Movement and the modern conservative movement: their fixation on gay marriage on one hand while demanding that the government get out of their business on the other. It’s one or the other folks you don’t get to choose. The libertarian is correct: government should get out of the bedroom while it gets out of my wallet.

    Now the minute that the government requires that your church accept gay marriage, you’ll have my support…but marriage is not and should never be the business of government. As far as the state is concerned, ALL unions (gay or straight) should be civil unions…what people call it (e.g. marriage, civil union, doubles tennis, whatever) should be wholly up to the individuals involved.

    The other day there was a great piece on bringing the men’s movement together…fixating on tangential issues like gay marriage is exactly what is tearing us apart.

  • S Baker

    Top 10 Utterly Ridiculous Gender Studies Courses

    David Horowitz’s NewsReal ^ | August 8, 2010 | Jenn Q. Public
    Imagine: you’re paying $30,000 a year to send your kid to college and she calls to tell you her class schedule. “Monday and Wednesday mornings I’m taking ‘The Phallus’ and Tuesday and Thursday I have ‘Rednecks, Queers, and Country Music.’” “You’re taking the what?” These course titles aren’t a joke. Women’s studies has long been a field in which scholarship takes a backseat to leftist activism and radical feminist politics. Although the discipline has “evolved” to encompass gender and sexuality studies, campus programs remain ideologically sterile laboratories designed to indoctrinate students into the ins and outs of the live-action role…

  • Roger F. Gay

    Feminization and homosexualization are pretty much the same thing. You just need to look at the actual history of feminism in the US. Their own monthly magazines talked openly about it, while the general public thought anyone mentioning the same was being “offensive to women and minorities (LOL!)” – note how much is in quotes.

    Feminists weren't out to destroy traditional marriage just because they were pissed off at their ex's; and those Hollywood ding-bats, "nightly news" talking heads, magazine editors, and politicians that were openly anti-(straight)-male and anti-marriage weren't that way for no reason. (OK, so at least some of the politicians could have been that way just for the bribes.)

  • http://www.google.com/profiles/mike.lasalle Mike LaSalle

    S Baker said, “disgust with deviant behavior”, and then goes on to compare adult homosexuality with child sex abuse.

    This is a false analogy comparable to another one that I have heard recently that equated personal cannabis use with murder.

    It is patently illogical to compare individual non-violent behaviors made by responsible adults with violent, coercive behaviors like murder and sexual abuse. A murderer creates a “victim”.

    Victim comes from the Latin word “Victima” – literally, an animal select for ritual slaughter and sacrifice.

    Murder and rape are crimes because they create victims.

    In a free society, Natural Liberty is the most central executive concern. Barring the presence of any victims, individuals and consenting adults are protected by Natural Law and the Constitution to pursue their life’s happiness.

    America exceptionalism is defined by Liberty and self-control — not by legal bureaucracy and state-control.

    If you can figure that much out, everything else will follow in a straight line.

  • S Baker

    We have watched the feminization of the country. Next, we will have the homosexualization of same, but at a much more rapid and forceful pace. Clearly, fear is not the issue with normal people; the word is disgust with deviant behavior whether it pertains to sex with children, animals, or the dead. This sickness grows more bold in demanding that others, not just accept, but exalt said behavior as normal. If there is any concern with public health, then let it be restated that male homosexuals are the #1 vector for the spread of infectious diseases among humans and are an unnecessary public health threat costing the system billions. Male homosexuals have the highest incidence of HIV/AIDS, syphilis, drug-resistant gonorrhea, entamoeba histolytica, chlamydia, herpes simplex II, Chancroid, Drug Resistant TB, Hepatitis A, Hepatitis B, Hepatitis non A & B, just to name a few. Hollywood and the press, of course, never discuss the CDC facts, but if you want to look for yourself the information is in the scientific literature. I don’t want to pay expenses for smokers either, but at least they don’t spread infectious agents. There is a notable homosexual group, consisting of thousands of members and tens of thousands more underground, known as the North American Man and Boy Love Association ( NAMBLA). This is a group of male child/boy molesters whose cry is “SEX BEFORE 8 BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE.” This group has been welcomed to most major homosexual parades across the United States. Homosexuals commit more than 40% of all reported child molestations in the United States, which, assuming homosexuals make up 2% of the population, means that 1 in 19 homosexuals is a child molester.

  • Paul R

    An issue that concerns me is what I call the theory of gay parenthood. That theory is that the law can do what nature cannot–give a child two parents of the same sex. To achieve this, the law must divorce parental rights and responsibilities from nature.

    One way for the law to give a child two parents of the same sex is through adoption. But gays argue adoption is both cumbersome and discriminatory. Straights do not have to adopt their own children. Why should gays?

    The most popular suggestion is to simply put the name of the second parent on the birth certificate. So who gets to decide whose name goes on the BC as the second parent? The most logical and pragmatic choice is the birth mother. She could put the name of the father or the name of someone else. Under this approach, whether a man becomes a father is an arbitrary choice made by the birth mother.

    The problem, of course, is that nature is a man’s strongest claim to fatherhood. It’s why DNA tests are used to establish paternity. Under the theory of gay parenthood, nature–and DNA tests–become irrelevant. Only the arbitrary choice of the birth mother matters.

    And this not a mere theoretical concern. Colorado law already permits the birth mother to add any “second name” she wishes to the birth certificate, including the name of her own mother. I know–that sounds like some crazy country song, but it’s the law in Colorado. This law was passed in part to help gay couples.

    So, yes, I have concerns about same-sex marriage. And if you try to raise these issues, you’re called a bigot and a homophobe. SSM advocates are unwilling, in my experience, to discuss problems with their proposals, even if doing so would lead to solutions. They consider even the most reasoned opposition to their proposals to be motivated solely by hatred of gays.

  • Roger F. Gay

    Maggie Gallagher isn’t so bad, but we all know Newt’s a butthead RINO. Here’s that illogical distraction again –

    Maggie Gallagher Working On Federal Gay Marriage Ban

  • Roger F. Gay

    Interview with the lawyer opposing California’s prop. 8 in court

    Notice that he cites case law from 1888, pretending the status of marriage (w.r.t. protection against arbitrary government intrusion) hasn’t changed.

  • Paul R

    I generally oppose the current gay marriage movement because it entails the re-definition of marriage–and members of the movement will not state exactly how they wish to re-define marriage. Depending on how marriage is re-defined, it could help or hurt fathers and children.

    I also think it’s extremely difficult to come up with a universal definition of marriage that’s suitable to both types of same-sex marriages and opposite-sex marriages because there are inherent differences between the three. And as David Usher points out, if we try to use the same definition for all three types of marriage, we will end up with inherently unequal and unfair results.

  • http://www.cyclotronmajesty.net CM

    It’s interesting to note the homosexual drive to attack, march, and create conflict: Here they are able to have their relationship with all the benefits of marriage from the government etc. – simply under the trivial difference that it’s not called “marriage” or recognized as the same thing by some people within the culture. Instead of being happy with that and minding their own business they have to get up and attack the meaning of marriage itself and ruin it’s definition (man + woman as life partners ready to start a family) – ruin the tradition of marriage and relationship between man and woman. Basically taking away that territory, Instead of finding their own. So natural sexuality has to sacrifice it’s way’s of doing things – so that homosexuals will be happy. Why can’t they just leave people who do things differently alone?

  • Denis

    Denis said:

    “It looks like in the future-with 3 radical feminists on the U.S.’ highest court-that males will only get equality in the eyes of the government and the courts in a marriage union if both males are gay.”

    It was not by chance that I included this statement. There was a lively discussion at MND in 2005-2006 concerning Gay Marriage. David Ushers column was pre-dated by the very same subject area:

    mensnewsdaily.com/2006/06/07/newsscotsmancom-22/comment-page-1/#comment-13084

    From 2006:

    2006/06/09 at 12:00 pm By Denis
    The same-sex marriage movement is all about continuing the worn out feminist agenda although in a stealth-like manner. The radical feminists are largely man-hating lesbians. They’ve had a free ride via feminism for a long time. Feminism is now under attack. That is why those promoting gay rights and same-sex marriage have been making themselves visible, and pushing their agenda so actively (unexpectedly to many Americans). Same-sex marriage is overwhelmingly a lesbian cause. Gay men are generally too promiscous to care all that much about marriage. Women have all the rights in marriage (and elsewhere) today. America is living in a sickening point in history. America is suffocating in sexist policies which openly and unconstitutionally discriminate against a fathers fundamental right to be in the family, to be a property owner, and to raise his children. For all men and for all fathers these are dark days reminiscent of Jim Crow.
    Setting up same-sex marriage in law will permanently keep husbands and fathers in these dark days of Jim Crow. There will be nothing special or unique that male husbands and fathers bring to a marriage and family.

    woman + woman

    will be just as valid as:

    man + woman.

    The only problem is that women already have all the advantages institutionalized in their favor because they are women. Lesbians can benefit from these special rights and privileges because they are women also, and are pushing to get additional special rights and privileges for being lesbians.

    This will further weaken husbands and fathers and make it impossible for mens rights activists to turn their situation around, and improve the current situation for husbands and fathers in the law via fair legislation. Additionaly, there will be more harrassment laws, employment laws, etc., all favoring women who are lesbians, at the expense of men. The gay agenda seeks to perpetuate the war on men that the lesbian feminists started via the feminist movement. We’ve had 40+ years of a war on men by the feminists under the guise of women’s rights. Unless men get active and fight the gay agenda there will be another front in this war on men (for another 40+ years) under the guise of gay rights

    Unfortunately this agenda does not end with marriage. It is the cracking-open-of-the-door to many other issues including the prosecution of priests who express opposition to Gay marriage (which has already happened in Canada) and the teaching of homosexuality to grade school children (which has already happened in Massachusetts).

  • http://www.google.com/profiles/mike.lasalle Mike LaSalle

    I confess I am not particularly interested in the Gay Marriage issue, and for exactly the reason Roger suggests:

  • In the formal, legal sense, marriage is no longer considered a sacred private institution deserving the strictest protection against arbitrary government intrusion. In P.O.P.S. v. GARDNER (1993), the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals (from the left coast, the most radical anti-Constitution, most frequently overturned federal court in the nation) reclassified marriage and family law from civil law to social policy. Few people recognize the profound difference that makes, and the leftstream media was too busy promoting the causes that led to the change to take notice.
  • In other words, as religion has faded as the source and progenitor of the marriage contract, the state has risen taken over the institution of marriage. The value of marriage now is determined by political and legal expediency. Governance Feminism is the vehicle through which state supremacy over marriage is currently expressed.

    Thus marriage — like the personal — is now political.

    In that light, who cares about gay marriage?

    The best argument I have heard in opposition to gay marriage comes from David Usher:
    http://mensnewsdaily.com/2008/11/14/from-california-with-h8/

    Usher points out that gay marriage is unconstitutional because it would enshrine sexual inequality across the secular institution of marriage.

    Because Governance Feminism has imposed a legal doctrine in which men are always assumed to be the predatory sex over women, “an elective marriage between two women and another elective marriage between two men would facially enjoy vastly dissimilar rights, benefits, and protections. Both would be unreasonably burdened with tremendously different responsibilities and sanctions before the law, regardless of sexual orientation of participants in elective gender-segregated marriages.”

    According to David Usher, same-sex marriage would create three inherently unequal classes of marriage, wherein a marriage between two women would enjoy a more protected status than marriage between two men. Heterosexual marriage would represent a third class, wherein the wife would be entitled to greater state protections than the husband.

    Such a topsy-turvey legal environment for marriage contracts violates Equal Protection, and is therefore unconstitutional.

    I find this a convincing argument. Though the conclusion I would draw from this is not that gay marriage is unconstitutional, but that ALL marriages sanctioned and governed by the state are unconstitutional.

    In short, I am now convinced that Marriage is a religious and spiritual right that, under the First Amendment, is protected from interference by the State.

    It’s time to wake up, Neo.

  • Roger F. Gay

    Yep Denis, marriage is now a politically manipulated “entitlement,” with everyone knocking at the door of the welfare office lobbying and paying off politicians and bureaucrats to get what they want. We are way into being a banana republic.

  • Denis

    It would seem that in the eyes of the government and courts that marriage no longer has a biological basis. It is impressive and fascinating to see the Federal judiciary of the U.S. take such an interest in this issue, championing the rights of this tiny minority group to enjoy a benefit which is more about naming rights as it is about economic rights.

    One reason it is fascinating is that by all indications, both State and Federal judiciaries in the U.S., are still shockingly complicit in the denying of both married and non-married heterosexual male parents anything even vaguely resembling the constitutional and fundamental rights which the same exact logic would dictate they should have with respect to their children and families in divorce and separation. Anyone who has ever employed a number of American males, which I have, has seen the grotesque abuses of the family and economic rights of fathers and divorcing males which so many America’s courts routinely inflict. It is beyond shocking.

    When it comes to plain old males in America, and matters of custody and ‘support’, U.S. courts routinely issue orders, which no educated economist or expert in international law could possibly see as other than the unlawful conveying effective ownership rights in the human capital of male parents and divorcees, which rights are virtually always handed over to females, a group who coincidentally constitute the majority of the voters in the U.S. Part of the problem in terms of public awareness of this quasi-concealed holocaust against male parents and divorced males is the lack of truth-in-labeling by so many courts and legislatures which flows from their using the term ‘support’. Apparently, they feel that if they simply call the money they are extracting from a male “support” — for periods ranging up to the rest of his life in some states — they can take up to all of a man’s earnings then some. When courts issue awards of “support” which bankrupt those men they issue them against, and then throw same men in jail for having been bankrupted, it is all spun as being due to a “failure to support” some fragile person or persons – by implication, a former wife or children.

    Thus, gays can marry, but heterosexual fathers not only have virtually no hope of custody across the pond in America (like in England), they are also very likely to be sold as slaves (not so much in England), and if they ever stumble in their labors, they are quite certain to be sent to prison for having run out of money. As if America isn’t jailing enough of its citizens already.

    Curiously, America’s Federal Courts are claimed to have invented a simple convenience which they call the “Domestic Relations Exception”. This handy item is apparently the basis for Federal Courts completely ignoring the rights in family of heterosexual males. They don’t takes such cases and instead send them back to state courts.

    How is it then, that gays marrying rights does not fall under the same “Domestic Relations Exception” and get tossed aside by the Federal Judiciary?

    Very curious that.

    Many take the view that male parents in America are treated like some sub-human life form when it comes to their rights in matters concerning family — except perhaps if they are gay. If they are gay, it would appear that males suddenly become “special” in the eyes of the State and now Federal courts, just like that majority group called women.

    America appears to have really lost its way in the application of the rule of law, and the oft-mentioned “equal protection” clause of its constitution.

    The inconsistent treatment by judiciaries of males in family vs. homosexuals in marriage appears to be far worse than a mere double-standard. A more focused consideration of American government’s meddling in family, and disabusing males of rights in family, as well as conveying the economic rights of indefensible portions of their earnings under cover of the quaint term “support”, seems to have more in common with certain crimes against humanity, than a mere lack of “equal protections”.

    No matter. Gay marriage is a real attention-getter for the press. And it is also serving as a real attention-distractor from the much larger scale abuse of heterosexual male fathers and ex-spouses by many in all three branches of U.S. government at both the Federal and State levels, not to mention the scale of abuses of primarily minorities resulting from America’s prison-feeding and highly misguided (and failed) “war on drugs”.

    It looks like in the future-with 3 radical feminists on the U.S.’ highest court-that males will only get equality in the eyes of the government and the courts in a marriage union if both males are gay.

    Welcome to the New World Order.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/rogerfgay/ Roger F. Gay
  • 3DShooter

    The (small ‘l’) libertarian postilion should be that inter-personal relationships, traditional or not, are none of the government’s damn business. State sanctioned marriage, and the divorce industry it has spawned, have destroyed the traditional institution of marriage and family. It is extremely unwise for men to marry in the current legal environment that is so hostile to them.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/author/rogerfgay/ Roger F. Gay

    Ummm: I take it you celebrate the abolition of civil rights and rejoice with every successful step closer to absolute dictatorship.

  • http://kinderling.blogspot.com/2008/03/homosesxuality-is-not-normal.html Kinderling

    Homosexuality is a mental illness, a disassociation of affection.
    This is what drove St Paul to make a counterfeit world of Gods and Demons over the body of a dead man who had dispelled Gods and Demons.
    Jesus taught to face the pain of resentment while Saul to avoid pain reinvented himself and rode his now deified JesusGod to teach that behaving differently came from believing you were different. Self hypnosis: the first Neural Linguistic Programming.

    Marriage, the sactity for raising a generation, became a marriage of convenience.

    The biggest narcissists demand you believe in them. They all live with suppressed rage. Where Religions reign supreme, people are harrassed and burned, so too will non-believers of Homosexuality be disposed.

  • Pingback: Tweets that mention ‘Scared’ of Same-Sex Marriage, or Better Informed? | MND: Your Daily Dose of Counter-Theory -- Topsy.com

  • Ummm

    Wait, you’re seriously trying to claim that being against gay marriage is the pro-liberty position? Ridiculous.







  • Right.

    Man up.

    Buy the book now on Amazon.com. Or listen to Ronnie tell a story at escaping-from-reality.com.

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