When Your Kid Smokes Pot

2010-08-08
By

O.K., so you found some weed in your teen-agers room.

Depending on the kind of parent you are, your reaction to that can range from mild amusement to thermonuclear. But assuming you are not going to smoke the stuff yourself, you are confronted with making some decisions on what to do about it. Perhaps you think it is time to call a counselor, or maybe even the thought of a treatment center for young people with drug problems crosses your mind.

As someone who worked in the chemical dependency treatment field for two decades, and who wrote and directed several treatment programs, let me make a suggestion about that.

Don’t.

Don’t even think about it.

To clarify, let me tell you some things you won’t hear from the staff at treatment programs, or anyone else interested in making a buck off your child’s “problem.”

First, there’s this funny thing about teenage drug addicts. There aren’t any. Or at least they are so far and few between that I can count the ones I have seen on two fingers. So for your benefit, an understanding of addiction is in order.

We’ll view it in simple, objective terms. Chemical dependency and/or abuse is defined, in that Holy of Holies, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM IV), in pretty explicit terms, regardless of what drug we are talking about. There are two main criteria.

First, for physical addiction to be established there has to be the presence of physical withdrawal symptoms when the drug use is stopped. My money is on the fact that if you take your kids pot away they won’t even get so much as the sniffles. This probably has something to do with the fact that marijuana isn’t addictive.

The other diagnostic criteria, and the one the treatment centers rely heavily on as their cash cow, is the continued use of a particular drug or drugs despite the onset of severe life damaging consequences. In this we are talking about things like multiple arrests, lost jobs, physical ailments and failed marriages, all related to the use/abuse of drugs. Again, the odds are good that Johnny didn’t lose his paper route or burger flipping position from smoking some weed, or suffer any of these other complications.

And as much as Johnny, or even you, may protest, getting caught by your parents isn’t severe and life damaging- unless there is something really wrong with the parents.

So why then, you might ask, are there treatment programs spread across the entire western world that will gladly take Johnny in and “treat” him as long as the money or insurance holds out?

Well, money, of course. There’s gold in the ignorance of them thar parents.

And in their fear and desperation- and in their failure to be good parents.

But before we get to that, let me illustrate one of the dirty little secrets of the “helping” profession, just to make the point.

The money is in the diagnosis.

Up till 1991, there had been something like 6 documented cases of Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD) in the entirety of world history. But then a psychiatrist in Houston, a right smart lady with a really keen eye for those pesky extra personalities, diagnosed enough of them in that city to keep a 22 bed unit at a psychiatric hospital full of them for months on end.

At around $1,200 a day per head, for stays that often ranged in the months, MPD was a gold mine. The Doc was getting rich, hospital administration was ecstatic and the insurance companies continued to pay.

Eventually the authorities took notice; Lady Freud was figured to be Lady Fraud and was charged with scamming the insurance companies. That hospital’s administrator lost his job. Later though, the charges were dropped, mainly because the burden was on the prosecution to prove that the patients, whose confidentiality -and thus treatment information- was protected by law, didn’t have MPD.

Case closed, and the lady walks with the money, perhaps to go on and treat teenage drug addicts.

The point here is, though, if one psychiatrist can find hundreds of MPD’s, mostly from the same city, all with insurance to cover the stay, how hard do you think it is to find teenage drug addicts?

That’s right. They are as close as the nearest scared and insured or affluent parent.

And the corruption is just the light side; surface stuff. We are, after all, talking about your child. Who cares if it is expensive, right?

I would tend to agree if locking your child away in a treatment program and calling them an addict would somehow resolve their problems. It would be worth the expense. But the truth is that it is more likely to make things worse.

It reminds me of a joke. Mom and Dad find Johnny’s stash of pot and take him to the treatment center. Dad is concerned, mom is crying and Johnny looks scared out of his mind.

The counselor asks, “Johnny, do you know why you are here?”

“Yes,” Johnny says, voice trembling, “I was smoking pot.”

Just then another couple walks in with their son, also named Johnny. Dad is angry and reeks of gin, Mom is crying so hard she can hardly open her bottle of Xanax.

The dad says, “We were just on our way out of town when we had to come here. Can you fix the little bastard? We’ll pick him up when we get back. A month O.K.?”

The counselor turns to the other Johnny and asks again, “Johnny, do you know why you are here?”

“F*ck you, bitch,” says the boy.

“Isn’t this great!” says the counselor. “Johnny, meet Johnny. You can both share the experience of treatment together. Perhaps we’ll make you room mates!”

And yes, that is the punch line.

Adolescent drug abuse programs, more than any others, become dumping grounds for all manner of problems, except real chemical dependency. If you take your kid there because you caught them smoking pot, they will be tossed in with a population of conduct disorders, budding sociopaths, even the occasional emerging psychopath.

Of course they will all have that evil pot use in common, if nothing else.

Treatment programs need customers in order to make money. And as we learned in our MPD program, they are often not too picky about how they get those customers, as long as the money is there.

Johnny and Johnny won’t be the exception.

In fact, in all the years I worked in that field, I never saw anyone turned away who wanted to be admitted (or whose parents wanted it), unless there was no funding. Those that didn’t want to check in were always encouraged to change their minds in the strongest possible terms.

Plenty of the great unwashed were sent packing no matter how bad their circumstances. The standard for the business was, and is, if you’ve got coverage, you’ve got a problem we can help you with.

What do you suppose happens when you mix these types of personalities together and concentrate them behind locked doors with their lives under the control of external authority figures while the rest of their family enjoys freedom?

Johnny One and Johnny Two might not have much in common when they are admitted, but you can bet they will become fast friends during their stay together. It’s what happens when you create a penitentiary environment. And what your relatively innocent kid doesn’t know about drugs, sex and a host of other things before treatment, he will quickly learn during the process.

All this and there is not one bit of reputable evidence to suggest that treatment will stop him from doing drugs in the future.

So what, then, is a concerned parent to do?

I am afraid the answer to that one is almost as unpalatable as treatment itself.

There is one other bit of information that you won’t hear from professionals who are financially invested in keeping the cash flow coming. 99 out of 100 screwed up kids come from screwed up homes- screwed up parents. In fact, if you get someone who works in a treatment setting with adolescents to tell you the truth, they will tell you that the greatest frustration with their work is that they spend all this time trying to help kids with their problems, only to send them right back to the same dysfunctional environment -the environment that caused their problems- when treatment is done.

Of all the adolescents I worked with (and quit working with because of this problem) they had more in common with bad parents than with drug use. It was a virtual broken record of the same old same old; parents that were outraged because their kids turned to drugs, but couldn’t tell you the name of any of their teachers at school. Often there was violence and abuse in the home that the parents wanted to call “discipline,” or active real addiction by one or both parents. They often had Dads that didn’t know they were alive unless they were in trouble, and Moms that had turned them into little emotional spouses because they had run off the fathers affections long ago.

But that joint in the bottom drawer? Something had to be done!

And these parents, afflicted by those or a myriad of other problems, all had something in common as well. Their kid was the problem. Their kid was the only problem. And you could see it in the vacant, glazed over look in their eyes any time you tried to talk about anything else.

But what else can a treatment provider do? You push the truth too hard and the parents (read money) goes bye-bye.

And so the dance of lies picks up tempo; and the music drowns out every relevant reality that might actually help these struggling people. The kid, in many cases, is often the most sane person in the home. More than likely, they are acting out and calling attention to the problems that Mom and Dad are pretending didn’t exist; screaming at them for help in the only way they know how. And their reward for this service is to be locked up and stigmatized in order to get at their parents money.

Or, heaven forbid, some of them are just a normal kids experimenting with some pot. It happens you know, and more than a few of them go on to become happy, well adjusted adults who happen to like marijuana.

But for the ones that are real problems; the really troubled kids, parents can likely find the best solution in the mirror. Your child didn’t get to where they are in a vacuum. And your money or insurance cannot help them near as much as your love, ongoing involvement in their lives, and willingness to clean up your own act.

There is clearly some cases where some short term counseling might help with that. When kids are in trouble, good parents can often figure it out by figuring out what is wrong with themselves.

So do yourself and your child a favor, go there without them first. Or better yet, just take a good long look at yourselves before you talk to anyone else.

It’s amazing what that can do.

Bio available at my website

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  • richard wilmot Ph.d.

    A “Drug War” Scenario:

    John sat in a jail cell and thought about how his mother had put him there. He was twenty-two years old and had recently graduated from college with a degree in biology. All that summer he had looked for work related to his degree and found none. He had moved back into his widowed mother’s house. He had no money except for what his mother would give him to cover his expenses. What she did not know was that his expenses also included money for drugs. He had spent a small part of the money she had given him for groceries on drugs. She had questioned him about it; he had confessed and she had reported him to the police. They came to his mother’s home, found pot in his bedroom, and arrested him for possession. Tough love! Now he waited to meet his fate.

    One of his jailers said to him as he entered the cell: “Now you’ll have some time to think.” He was doing just that… he knew his mother loved him and wanted only the best for him. After all it was she who had supported him through college after his father’s death. He also knew that she was resolutely ignorant about drugs.

    He knew that marijuana was probably the least harmful drug he could use. He would rather use marijuana than alcohol even though his mother had given him money for wine for herself and a six-pack of beer for him. He knew the beer would most likely stay in the fridge until he wanted some liquid refreshment. He did not use alcohol to get high. He loved to get high on marijuana and had done so for the past two years. He also knew that he would be out of jail tomorrow and would return to the family home with a new label: drug addict. That would be hard to take.

    As he was engrossed in these thoughts his jailer called out that he had a visitor. A deputy escorted him to the visiting area. It was his mom. He sat down by the glass partition and picked-up the two way phone. His mom, usually impeccable in her appearance, looked distraught: she had been crying. This made John upset too because in spite of what she had done to him, he still loved her. She was carrying one of his college texts on drugs and addiction.

    She had book marked a page and she opened the book to that page as she lifted the receiver. “John”, she said, “I know you said marijuana is not a dangerous drug but a part of the Substance Control Act reprinted in your own college text lists marijuana alongside heroin. John, if you love me at all, you are going to have to promise me that you will never use pot again. Promise me…”

  • http://www.Prodred.org Sheldon Norberg

    This is great to hear in the mainstream, because it’s the truth. The prohibition industry invented the drug court, and now that they can send any kid who gets busted into treatment, they claim that there are thousands of marijuana using teens in treatment at any given time.

    Well, none of them volunteered, because their problem was not smoking pot. If they had a problem, it’s with their family, which our culture is not very good with addressing, drugs or not.

    I went to the Drug Policy Alliance conference last fall, and was amazed to come away thinking that speed, and its users, whom I’ve generally despised, were really nowhere near as bad as painted by the media. The real problem that crankers (and other addicts) share is deep emotional scars from childhood. These get masked by drug use, the symptom which our system is only to happy to address, since the root cause would demand a near restructuring of our whole society.

    Blah blah blah – if you like this article, join me in creating Progressive Drug Education – http://www.prodred.org

  • Malcolm Kyle

    Prohibition is a sickening horror and the ocean of incompetence, corruption and human wreckage it has left in its wake is almost endless.

    Prohibition has decimated generations and criminalized millions for a behavior which is entwined in human existence, and for what other purpose than to uphold the defunct and corrupt thinking of a minority of misguided, self-righteous Neo-Puritans and degenerate demagogues who wish nothing but unadulterated destruction on the rest of us.

    Based on the unalterable proviso that drug use is essentially an unstoppable and ongoing human behavior which has been with us since the dawn of time, any serious reading on the subject of past attempts at any form of drug prohibition would point most normal thinking people in the direction of sensible regulation.

    By its very nature, prohibition cannot fail but create a vast increase in criminal activity, and rather than preventing society from descending into anarchy, it actually fosters an anarchic business model – the international Drug Trade. Any decisions concerning quality, quantity, distribution and availability are then left in the hands of unregulated, anonymous and ruthless drug dealers, who are interested only in the huge profits involved. Thus, the allure of this reliably and lucrative industry, with it’s enormous income potential that consistently outweighs the risks associated with the illegal operations that such a trade entails, will remain with us until we are collectively forced to admit the obvious.

    A great many of us are slowly but surely wising up to the fact that the best avenue towards realistically dealing with drug use and addiction is through proper regulation which is what we already do with alcohol & tobacco, clearly two of our most dangerous mood altering substances. But for those of you whose ignorant and irrational minds traverse a fantasy plane of existence, you will no doubt remain sorely upset with any type of solution that does not seem to lead to your absurd and unattainable utopia of a drug free society.

    There is therefore an irrefutable connection between drug prohibition and the crime, corruption, disease and death it causes. Anybody ‘halfway bright’, and who’s not psychologically challenged, should be capable of understanding that it is not simply the demand for drugs that creates the mayhem, it is our refusal to allow legal businesses to meet that demand. If you are not capable of understanding this connection then maybe you’re using something far stronger than the rest of us. So put away your pipe, lock yourself away in a small room with some tinned soup and water, and try to crawl back into reality A.S.A.P.

    Because Drug cartels will always have an endless supply of ready cash for wages, bribery and equipment, no amount of tax money, police powers, weaponry, wishful thinking or pseudo-science will make our streets safe again. Only an end to prohibition can do that! How much longer are you willing to foolishly risk your own survival by continuing to ignore the obvious, historically confirmed solution?

    If you support the Kool-Aid mass suicide cult of prohibition, and erroneously believe that you can win a war without logic and practical solutions, then prepare yourself for even more death, tortured corpses, corruption, terrorism, sickness, imprisonment, economic tribulation, unemployment and the complete loss of the rule of law.

    “A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded.”
    Abraham Lincoln

    The only thing prohibition successfully does is prohibit regulation & taxation while turning even our schools and prisons into black markets for drugs. Regulation would mean the opposite!

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  • http://avoiceformen.com/ Paul Elam

    @ Patrick

    Lie is a really strong word, but hey, you are welcome to your opinion.

    That being said, I could have made the point clearer, and will take the hit for that. If you are an addictions counselor, you know the process for justification of stay. The key words those clowns at managed care you talk to are interested in have everything to do with withdrawal symptoms and with documentation of life damaging consequences.- with the rest being about levels of craving, or that is how it was done when I was in the field.

    Now, it could be that in my absence that managed care companies have begun relying on more sophisticated diagnostic information. But as I said, I was speaking to diagnostic criteria that was of relevance to getting paid, which was the only thing in that field that mattered, and I am assuming that this is still the case.

    @ Chris

    I suppose this is a similar issue that Patrick raised. While DID has always been the DSM-IV Axis I disorder, the common use, even among professionals at the time was MPD. The psych unit I mentioned in the article was indeed called the MPD unit.

    It is just like Bipolar Disorder. I can still hear my self trying to say Manic Depressive instead.

    I wrote this piece with the same jargon- and diagnostic understanding- that was in common use when I was a counselor.

  • Rhayader

    Great, great article Paul. I first smoked pot when I was fifteen. I’m 27 now, and I’ve been smoking to some extent or another that entire time.

    You know what I never did? Got a grade below a B. Got fired from a job. Missed an important appointment or obligation. Tried anything harder than magic mushrooms. Spent money I needed for expenses on drugs. Got arrested. None of it.

    Pot’s just not a big deal. Parents who send their kids off to these criminology camps because of a little grass are doing a tremendous disservice to their children.

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  • D

    I was sent to programs in Utah for emotional issues. I never did drugs…until I got there. It was so boring, and such BS, that I just couldn’t stand going through it in a clear state of mind. I eventually got caught and got in trouble and didn’t do anything again, but what I learned from programs is that it’s mostly just BS.

    No one helped with my self esteem issues, except me. I took their BS psychology and warped it in a way to help myself. Hell, I even helped a couple other kids. The only good therapist at the worst place was the guy fresh out of school and looking to make a difference. The rest were burnt out idiots who ALWAYS thought they were right because they had a PhD.

    Some people just are druggies and won’t change. The best program I went to only turned out a couple good eggs and those were people who never did drugs in the first place.

    One thing it did do was pull a few people out of depression and self-destructive cycles, but they went back to doing drugs for recreation instead of covering their issues.

    I say get some good therapy if it’s a serious addiction, but don’t waste your money for pot and some drugs at parties or something. Kids do what they do and you can mess them up worse if you meddle too much.

    But don’t be too relaxed about it.

    Programs suck.

  • meg

    I was in a similar situation with my parents when I was a teenager. If my dad would have sat down and smoked a joint with me and talked about what drove me to drug use in the first place, our problems would have been solved.

    Of course my dad wouldn’t have found marijuana in my room as a kid, he wasn’t that lucky. I didn’t start using marijuana until years and years later when I was ready to stop abusing hard drugs and alcohol and change my life. Luckily now my light, but regular, marijuana use allows me to ditch my anxiety (and other problems that would lead to a dysfunctional relationship with my son) and focus on being a loving, open, honest, educational and fun parent for my son. It’s not the drug that is the problem in my experience, it is how it is used and perceived.

  • Sharon

    Great article! Truthful and please share with other people.

  • Former Pothead

    “Or, heaven forbid, some of them are just a normal kids experimenting with some pot. It happens you know, and more than a few of them go on to become happy, well adjusted adults who happen to like marijuana.”

    A whole lot more will simply grow up and find better things to do. (All by themselves, without “treatment”).

    I did.

  • Squiggy

    Ya get what ya vote for Squiggy and as long as conservatives are willing to vote for RINO that is exactly what they are going to get…

    Give me an option. Every Rino out there would be better than this commie bastard we have now.

  • end prohibition

    When your kids smoke pot, you should encourage them do it at home, be responsible about it, teach them about how cannabis is safer than meth, tobacco and alcohol, and take it upon yourself to recognize the drug war is losing and costing lives and tax dollars, and urge your law makers to legalize, so that we can have the same positive results Portugal has had since it’s decision to legalize all drugs. With how bad meth is, and how popular it is today, you should try to get your kids interested in experimenting with pot, instead of hard drugs like meth. Meth is not a joke, and conventional methods to stop its use are not working.

  • rae

    ridiculous, if someone has negative consequences stemming from their drug use and continues to use they have a problem. when a person can no longer live while using but cant see their life without the drug they have an addiction. i experienced all of these problems from mainly just smoking weed 24/7, when my parents did something about it and locked me in the house so i couldn’t go get high i had an emotional breakdown. i experienced intense depression because of my drug use and was eventually admitted to a psych ward for 8 days for being a danger to myself. if you ask your child to stop and they cant stop for a single day and they use in order to change the way they feel and not just to get high they might have a problem. addiction is a disease and drug use is just a symptom. i went to treatment and being clean is the best decision i have ever made. my problem is way deeper then drugs, don’t assume that your child’s isn’t because they only smoke weed. everyone is different.

  • Honesty

    OK, so I agree that this article makes some great points, it does however swing the pendulum to the other extreme side. Encouraging parents not to overreact if they find some pot in their kids drawer(great advice) and being realistic about the potential problems associated with marijuana, alcohol and all other drugs is excellent and far too scarce advice, the authors explanation, that teenage drug addicts are basically a myth, is equally as potentially dangerous for teens as are irresponsible, abusive parents. I voluntarily checked myself into detox and an outpatient rehab program when I was 19 years old. 5 and 1/2 years later, I am still clean and sober, and have even used marijuana, approved by a psychiatrist, for medicinal purposes. I knew that I had a problem about a year before I finally could admit it, and I KNOW to this day that I am a drug addict, in recovery yes, but a drug addict nonetheless.
    Who gives a shit what the DSM-IV says, I have personally known many other teenagers and people in their early twenties that were unquestionably drug addicts, just as validly as anyone. And to say that marijuana is not addictive is a half truth used to push this agenda. It’s true that marijuana is not physically addictive, but like sex, gambling, fighting, anything that releases endorphins it can easily turn into a psychological addiction. And as someone who has dealt with both of those issues, getting through physical withdrawl is far easier than dealing with living sober.
    My parents took the time to educate themselves on the subject of addiction as did I when I made the choice to enter a rehab program, had my parents read misleading half-truths like this, or had I for that matter, I very well may not be alive today.
    I can’t say for certain, but I can say that it is vastly probable that the author claims to have seen only two teenage drug addicts for the same reason that other programs claim to see so many. He has an agenda and is finding ways to make his experiences mean what he wants them to mean. And notice that he calls the system out on diagnosing kids with drug problems that they don’t have to make money, and even admits to doing it himself, he then states that the reason he quit is because he was tired of dealing with selfish irresponsible parents, not out of some overarching moral duty. To use his own example, that if you push too hard, the ‘patient’ and thus the money go away, a truly progressive thing would have been to push when he knew it was the right thing to do regardless of the money. Instead of cashing in for two decades then getting out because he was tired of the crappy parents.
    There needs to be more realistic drug information available, there need to be people who will be honest with parents and their children, not people that play the game, get tired of it, then try to make a buck out of pointing out its flaws without actually trying to fix anything.
    Parents, educate yourselves, there are is such a thing as a teenage drug addict, find out what that really is, distinguish it from teenage experimentation and rebellion. But you can’t force an addict to get help, THEY have to want it and all you can do is love and support them. If you’re child needs help, find out where to get GOOD help. It does exist, and you could enable your child to save THEMSELVES from years of waste and regret.

  • Dominique

    Why do people act like marijuana is such a big deal? Sorry to burst your bubble, but it’s starting to get legalized in the U.S. It’s marijuana, not heroin or crack/cocaine. The worst possible thing marijuana does is make you forget things. It’s not even addictive. So what’s the problem?

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  • Patrick Dieter

    While I agree with nearly everything you said, (Yes, I am an addictions counselor, too) I found it to be very strange that you would lie about the DSM IV diagnosis, just to make a point that you already had made with other facts that were absolutely true. According to the manual, withdrawal is only one of seven possible symptoms for dependence, and it does NOT have to be physical. As long as any three of those seven markers are there, the diagnosis of dependence is met. I am not necessarily in agreement with the DSM IV — just not sure why you would BS to make your point.

  • http://poeticobservations.wordpress.com/ Dabir Dalton

    Squiggy wrote: There hasn’t been a conservative in a major position since Reagan. If you think Bush was conservative, dream on.
    ———————–

    Yet it was conservative voters like yourself who voted Bush into office not once but twice…Ya get what ya vote for Squiggy and as long as conservatives are willing to vote for RINO that is exactly what they are going to get…

  • Chris

    Not to be an asshole here, because I agree with the whole article, except there is no such thing as Multiple Personality Disorder. If you check the “holy” DSM IV you wont find it in there at all. Its actually dissociative identity disorder

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  • Storm Crow

    Thank you for a sensible, well written and LONG over-due article!

    May I invite all of you to really educate yourselves about cannabis? I collect medical studies about cannabis from sources like PubMed and medical journals, and articles about the studies from the press. For free access 100s of medical studies and articles, just run a search for “Granny Storm Crow’s MMJ Reference List” and read! Among the articles are these from WebMD on the medical uses of cannabis- (I’ll give you the URL for the first- just copy and paste the titles into their search bar for the rest)

    Marijuana Ingredients Slow Invasion by Cervical and Lung Cancer Cells http://www.webmd.com/cancer/news/20071226/pot-slows-cancer-in-test-tube

    “Marijuana’s Active Ingredient Targets Deadly Brain Cancer”

    “Marijuana Ingredient May Cut Fibromyalgia Pain”

    “Marijuana Chemical Fights Hardened Arteries”

    “Chemicals in Marijuana May Fight MRSA”

    “Pot-Based Drug Promising for Arthritis”

    “Cannabis May Help Multiple Sclerosis”

    “Marijuana May Fight Lung Tumors”

    “Marijuana May Slow Alzheimer’s”

    “Marijuana Smoking Doesn’t Kill”

    After you read those, check out my list for whole sections of studies on “Amotivational Syndrome”, “Safety”, “Gateway Theory”, “Social Adjustment” and “Children and Young Adults” for more on the subject of adolescent cannabis use. Learn what cannabis can do for you, educate yourself! Thank you.

  • squiggy

    Where I work over the years the guy’s who ended up getting fired for indulging in illegal mind altering substances after a random drug test have always had in common: A Poor Attitude, Poor Work Ethic: Didn’t Care About the Quality of the Work They Put Out and were prone to violence if they didn’t get their way.

    I forgot this. Why would someone who is a really lousy worker need to fail a drug test to be fired?

    Only in a place with “unionized” workers would you need to jump through so many hoops to fire a dangerous person.

  • Squiggy

    Dalton? There hasn’t been a conservative in a major position since Reagan. If you think Bush was conservative, dream on.

    And your latest screed about fascists and conservatives is telling. You’re spouting talking points. Leftist talking points. You come in here with “advice” which purports to help us, then you spout the talking points of the supporters of our biggest enemy. You have entered total troll territory.

    I will now ignore your rants. Have a nice day.

  • http://poeticobservations.wordpress.com/ Dabir Dalton

    Squiggy…

    Where I work over the years the guy’s who ended up getting fired for indulging in illegal mind altering substances after a random drug test have always had in common: A Poor Attitude, Poor Work Ethic: Didn’t Care About the Quality of the Work They Put Out and were prone to violence if they didn’t get their way.

    Once they were gone they were never missed…

    Conservatism is what Republicans always espouse to get elected only to fall back on their core principles of establishing a Fascist Nirvana once elected…So don’t forget to vote as the Republicans need all the useful idiots and sheeple who don’t understand the difference in conservatism and fascism they can get this time around in November…

  • Squiggy

    Yes, Dalton. We’re lobbying for the right to smoke pot and drive fork lifts. Do you think – if you tried really hard – you could come up with something dumber? I’d like to see that.

    Your screed against conservatives is just insanity. Seventy percent of all mens-rights problems are because of leftists – and they did it on purpose. The other thirty percent is because conservatives have been fooled (by leftists) into believing that women need “protecting”. One side is evil, the other side is foolish. And you come down on the side of the evil ones. Nice.

    P.S. Legalization is a conservative position (even though the majority of smokers would lean leftwards) because we believe the government should leave us the hell alone.

  • http://poeticobservations.wordpress.com/ Dabir Dalton

    BTW Paul in case you haven’t noticed we don’t actually live in a democratic republic any more though the republicans and the democrats do their level best to keep up the illusion that we do by allowing their willfully deceived supporters to vote them into office.

    Instead with the democrats in office under the leadership of Obama we are teetering on the very edge of a full fledged socialist state while we will once again {just as we did under our last misguided potus king george} teeter on the edge of a fascist state when the republicans eventually get reelected into office.

    So you can argue whether it is illegal for the feds to ban mind altering substances until you are blue in the face. But once the state police show up at your doorstep its game over once they declare those who oppose them {no matter how right they are} as enemies of the state. Then make ya disappear with out a trace into thin air just like those {some of whom were innocent} accused of being terrorists were made to disappear by the Bush administration.

  • http://poeticobservations.wordpress.com/ Dabir Dalton

    Paul…

    I have said in the past that I will not support men’s rights and those who allow their sites to become shrills for the conservative republican party, as Mike allowed MND to to do for several years until you came along. Nor will I support those such as Glenn Sacks {who is basically a half baked and warmed over feminist} who bullies and silences those who dare to disagree with him. As well as challenge his half baked notion that men can coexist in an equal relationship with those who espouse the deliberate lies of feminism by removing their comments and banning them from his site.

    Yet I have always and will always care about men’s rights even though I freely laugh at those men {who love to bully their physically smaller brothers who dare to challenge the lies of their feminist handlers} when the females in their life finely turn upon them and destroy them financially in spite of their misplaced loyalty.

    As I said before I don’t have a problem with those here on MND calling for an end to the drug war but to actually promote the use of mind altering substances and use the Bible in an attempt to justify their position which the Bible condemns in both the old and new testaments is an entirely different matter. As someone who works in a plant where forklifts zip back and forth all day long and overhead cranes carry thousands of pounds {several tons at a time} of metal across the plant. The last thing I want is for an operator to report to work as high as a kite on a mind altering substance thereby putting both myself and our fellow coworkers at serious risk of injury and/or death.

  • http://avoiceformen.com/ Paul Elam

    @ Dabir Dalton

  • Otherwise Mike runs the risk of having those associated {both authors and readers who comment and put a link on their own blog to MND} who support men’s rights like myself of being branded with an illegal activity.
  • First, whoa, do I need to dig out the post where you said you quit caring about men’s rights and that you even thought the ills that befall them are things they had coming to them?

    Or have you found religion….again?

    Speaking as editor, one of the many things this site is about is promoting individual liberties, and if that means civil disobedience of unjust laws, or refusal to live under the thumb of oppressive government, then I, for one, am all for it.

    I do not recognize the authority of the U.S. Government to control marijuana, and will not recognize it until they pass a constitutional amendment explicitly giving the government that power. Until then, the only really illegal conduct is on the part of the state.

  • http://poeticobservations.wordpress.com/ Dabir Dalton

    Squiggy…

    I wasn’t aware that conservatives actually had any core beliefs to stand up for, unless of course, you mean the drivel that Republicans spout to get elected or when they are the minority party. Then promptly forget once reelected into office as they take off on their own spending spree, demonizing the male gender and pampering their ultra wealthy patrons with tax cuts this country can’t afford while socking it to the middle class.

    Promoting the use of mind altering substances and men’s rights at the same time is like fighting a war on two fronts just as Hitler did with Britain and Russia in world war II and he lost the war as a result. While calling for an end to the illegal drug war {whose primary victims are men} isn’t the problem the promotion of illegal drugs is. However if Mike wishes to actively promote the use of THC then it would be far wiser for him to do so on a completely different blog not associated with MND and men’s rights.

    Otherwise Mike runs the risk of having those associated {both authors and readers who comment and put a link on their own blog to MND} who support men’s rights like myself of being branded with an illegal activity. Now suppose I tell one of my male coworkers about how great a place MND is for those interested in men’s rights and after checking out MND he goes around telling some of our other coworkers that Mike is promoting the use of an illegal drug. I could very easily end up being targeted by management for a random drug test {which I already know that I will pass} but could still get fired if they decided, after checking out MND, they decided to label my coming here to read and comment on the essays discussing men’s rights as actively promoting the use of an illegal mind altering substance.

    Seems to me that the best thing then would be for me to remain silent on the issues men face today while at work instead of risking the loss of my job over a misperception in today’s economy.

  • Squiggy

    Why, Dalton? Because some people might disagree?

    Justice for one point of view, but not another is no justice at all. You MUST stand up for your core beliefs, or you don’t really have any.

  • http://poeticobservations.wordpress.com/ Dabir Dalton

    Paul…

    The psych. manual doesn’t always get it right because it’s primary purpose is to assist those in the psych industry to allow criminals to avoid punishment, bilk insurance companies and to convince the larger society that every individual is at worst mentally ill or at best suffers from a psych disorder that needs to be treated. Nor a person does not need to experience withdrawal in order to be addicted to a mind altering substance if they are using it on a regular basis to get high or just to function…

    While I fully understand your and Mike’s opposition to the drug war it is not wise and indeed counterproductive for MND to become known as a men’s rights site that actively promotes the use of illegal drugs…

  • 3DShooter

    Good post Paul.

    One would think that in today’s society we would be able to see society with such clarity. But, we do not.

    And though I generalize a bit when I say there are no bad kids (occasionally there are) only bad parents, I’m in the minority.

    Even more troubling are the parents who use legal drugs as a chemical leash to control their kids. My son with Down Syndrome is a classic example, the ex has drugged him into a zombie for so long that he will never reach the potential he once had – and there’s not a damned thing I can do about it.

    More generally, I’ve been against the whole prohibition/drug war insanity for many years simply on libertarian principles. It has always been my opinion that the single most significant driving factor in the drug war is, and has always been, the money.

  • Kris W

    Any parent that sends their kid(or kid’s) to rehab over pot, shouldn’t be allowed to be parents.

    I could see after you tried everything(lecture, talking it out, warning of the dangers{police}, talking with a Priest or Minister) and the kid won’t listen, maybe a military academy might be in order. But rehab? That is the equivalent of sending a jay walker to a Federal jail(with all those lovely gangs they tolerate).

  • http://no-maam.blogspot.com/ Rob

    I smoke pot. (It’s also decriminalized here in Canuckistan – under a half ounce is a mere fine, like a traffic ticket)

    And look how good I turned out!

    Seriously though, I could even get into conversations about how pot has been a positive influence in my life – as in, it often keeps me from going out and tying one on at the pub. (Odd, isn’t it, that Dr’s used to prescribe it precisely for that reason?: To keep people from further, more abusive types of behaviours?)

    I agree though, there is much disinformation about this, and articles like this are invaluable!

    Good job, Paul.

    I know a few kids I grew up with whose parents totally screwed them up because they thought catching them with a joint was 10,000 times worse than busting them with a six pack of beer.

    I have found myself desiring pot when I run out, with slight physical – I think – cravings, but slight… and that is after heavy use, and then running out. I am not 100% sure it is physical… it feels 1/10th as bad as not having a smoke, (I am also a smoker) and if I endure for two or three days it is gone… and that is after heavy usage (like after my old man died, I must have gone through an ounce every 10 days to two weeks for a couple months, until I just stopped cold – which I have always had the ability to do, and have done, sometimes for years).

    I’d rather “take the edge off” with a joint than feel obligated to head to the neighbourhood each night for 6 beers… or more! (After a while, who stops? Barfly!)

    Some people just are that way. If I knew that my kid was that way, I don’t know… I think I know which vice I would recommend, and it wouldn’t be the liquid kind.

    It’s good it’s decriminalized here – I also lived in Amsterdam several years ago, same shit different pile – not a big problem there either.

    Don’t go all diagnosing me now, Paul.

    Lol!

    I already have a sister with a Ph D in Psychology…


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